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post #11191 of 16513 Old 02-05-2018, 07:09 PM
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Revel ceiling speaker enclosures?

Not to derail this exciting isolation thread but had a new question that I didn't immediately find an answer to searching the pages of this thread. For installing any of Revel's in-ceiling speakers (the 363s are the ones I'm getting), is there any recommendation on to use an enclosure or not? And if so is there any that is specifically recommended for Revel speakers?
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post #11192 of 16513 Old 02-05-2018, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by epetti View Post
Not to derail this exciting isolation thread but had a new question that I didn't immediately find an answer to searching the pages of this thread. For installing any of Revel's in-ceiling speakers (the 363s are the ones I'm getting), is there any recommendation on to use an enclosure or not? And if so is there any that is specifically recommended for Revel speakers?
Preferably you would not use any enclosure at all - you'll get better bass response that way.

Revel only recommends a back box if local code recommends a fire rated enclosure.

Now you've derailed this exciting isolation thread!
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post #11193 of 16513 Old 02-05-2018, 08:03 PM
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Thank God.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Revel Speaker Topics.

I'm sure you've all been on tenterhooks over the scintillating isolation & ever-burning in-ceiling enclosure dilemmas.

Back to the latest news on Beryllium tweeters.

Sorry but it bores me.
I already have them.
You should too
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post #11194 of 16513 Old 02-05-2018, 11:57 PM
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trying to decide between 2X C763L or 5X C540 for my living room. Not for cinema use. Just an all round sound for the entire living room for music and tv watching. Any suggestions ? My local revel dealer asks me to go with the c763L because they can be angled towards the seating position and is against the c540 because they are downward firing. I'm only focussed about sound being there in the entire living room.
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post #11195 of 16513 Old 02-06-2018, 10:24 AM
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trying to decide between 2X C763L or 5X C540 for my living room. Not for cinema use. Just an all round sound for the entire living room for music and tv watching. Any suggestions ? My local revel dealer asks me to go with the c763L because they can be angled towards the seating position and is against the c540 because they are downward firing. I'm only focussed about sound being there in the entire living room.
Curious why the C540 vs. the C763L - the C540 is a special purpose small in-ceiling with only a 4" woofer. For a general purpose in-ceiling, I would probably be looking at the C563 or C583 (keeping in the 5 series - a 6" and 8" woofer, respectively). Those would work fine for typical in-ceiling applications where you just want sound to fill the room, and imaging / localization for TV / music listening is not all that critical.

The C763L is designed to be an in-ceiling LCR or surround speaker. The dealer is correct that it will work considerably better for TV watching, as you can direct the sound at the listening area. It will also give you a better stereo image for music from the listening area as well.

I've posted this video many times, but here Kevin Voecks discusses the benefits of the C763L (originally called the IC15) at about 1:58:

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post #11196 of 16513 Old 02-06-2018, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Straight from one of the higher ups at Revel:

Wouldn’t recommend it, because you want your speakers to be solidly connected to the floor. The last thing you want is for your speakers to rock forward and backward while playing. That’s what you get with isolation, and no up-side.
That's interesting because quite a few audio companies have done comparisons between isolation vs bolting down and say it's a bit more ambiguous than that. There's a Dynadio video on YouTube you can see regarding their take on it.

According to Dynaudio you have to do an actual comparison in room because it varies, but generally they find isolation is superior for hard surfaces and spikes is better on soft surfaces, but it gets into a grey area when it's a rug sitting on a hard surface. There's no fast and easy rule.

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post #11197 of 16513 Old 02-06-2018, 12:03 PM
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OK, got some great info and clarification on the upcoming Revel F228Be and M126Be driver materials. There has been much discussion regarding the white midrange and woofer cones; hopefully this will address those questions:

First, in regard to @BIODRAINX 's question re: the old Infinity ceramic:

Performa Be cone material is an all new technology and nothing to do with the Infinity Preludes.

Here is the lowdown on the new cone technology:

Ideal Pistonic Motion: The midrange and woofers in the Performa Be models utilize Deep Ceramic Composite (DCC) cones for improved performance. DCC is a plasma electrolytic oxidation process that uses a plasma discharge to create a coarse ceramic coating on both sides of the aluminum core. The deep ceramic layers sandwiching the aluminum core provide constrained layer damping that push cone breakup modes outside of the passband allowing the driver to maintain ideal pistonic motion throughout its range.

DCC cones combine with optimized motor magnetics to deliver improved mid- and low-frequency performance.
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post #11198 of 16513 Old 02-06-2018, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
OK, got some great info and clarification on the upcoming Revel F228Be and M126Be driver materials. There has been much discussion regarding the white midrange and woofer cones; hopefully this will address those questions:

First, in regard to @BIODRAINX 's question re: the old Infinity ceramic:

Performa Be cone material is an all new technology and nothing to do with the Infinity Preludes.

Here is the lowdown on the new cone technology:

Ideal Pistonic Motion: The midrange and woofers in the Performa Be models utilize Deep Ceramic Composite (DCC) cones for improved performance. DCC is a plasma electrolytic oxidation process that uses a plasma discharge to create a coarse ceramic coating on both sides of the aluminum core. The deep ceramic layers sandwiching the aluminum core provide constrained layer damping that push cone breakup modes outside of the passband allowing the driver to maintain ideal pistonic motion throughout its range.

DCC cones combine with optimized motor magnetics to deliver improved mid- and low-frequency performance.
Hi John!

Sold my F206:s and C205 and aiming for F208:s and C208.

But I'm also interested in the new Beryllium series....but i won't buy that series if it won't be an huge center speaker in that range.

Can you confirm if it will be an C228be on release or even a F226be?

Thanks in advance!

//Mike
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post #11199 of 16513 Old 02-06-2018, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Jakeshields View Post
That's interesting because quite a few audio companies have done comparisons between isolation vs bolting down and say it's a bit more ambiguous than that. There's a Dynadio video on YouTube you can see regarding their take on it.

According to Dynaudio you have to do an actual comparison in room because it varies, but generally they find isolation is superior for hard surfaces and spikes is better on soft surfaces, but it gets into a grey area when it's a rug sitting on a hard surface. There's no fast and easy rule.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jGNdJ3xI-6w
One of the things that Harman does that I respect is actually test to see if some of the theoretical advantages of using this or that technology actually brings any audible benefit. For example, for years the supposed theoretical benefits of "phase coherence" were touted by several manufacturers and engineers, yet the Lipschitz and Harman research has shown zero audible benefit. That's the advantage of being able to design, measure the results, and then test for audibility under double blind conditions in the MLL.

And then - if you do hear a difference - you need to actually be able to demonstrate that what you are hearing is an improvement, rather than just a "difference."

So, I wonder if some of the proposed "improvements" that come with different speaker stand / isolation technologies actually offer audible or theoretical benefits. Certainly there are problems you want to avoid - like the resonance you may get by using an empty plywood box as a speaker stand, for example. But beyond that, it seems that bandwidth and worry about speaker stands and isolation is attention best focused elsewhere.

I fell into this a while back when I was picking out speaker stands for my LSR708i side surrounds. Finally I just reached out to Dr. Toole, and got this back in response:

Stands - and spikes - are there to elevate the speaker to a useful height and their most basic task is to not let the speaker fall over. That is why so many of them are heavy, although the mystique has more to do with Movement. It turns out that we are highly insensitive to doppler distortion, which would be the result of movement. The fact that satellites don't radiate low bass is a huge advantage - it is hard to imagine a speaker moving significantly at 100 Hz.

I really cannot imagine that it is hard to find a capable stand. If the though of "movement" keeps you awake at night, put a few bricks on top of the speakers.,but then the stand has more to do :-)
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post #11200 of 16513 Old 02-06-2018, 01:15 PM
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Hi John!

Sold my F206:s and C205 and aiming for F208:s and C208.

But I'm also interested in the new Beryllium series....but i won't buy that series if it won't be an huge center speaker in that range.

Can you confirm if it will be an C228be on release or even a F226be?

Thanks in advance!

//Mike
Can't confirm a C228Be, though I know it has been discussed. My guess - Harman will monitor sales of the F228Be and M126Be, then make a decision whether or not a C228Be is warranted. If it matters, I have strongly suggested that one would be desirable. But I don't call the shots

It seems very likely there will be an F226Be, but probably much later this year.
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post #11201 of 16513 Old 02-06-2018, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Jakeshields View Post
That's interesting because quite a few audio companies have done comparisons between isolation vs bolting down and say it's a bit more ambiguous than that. There's a Dynadio video on YouTube you can see regarding their take on it.

According to Dynaudio you have to do an actual comparison in room because it varies, but generally they find isolation is superior for hard surfaces and spikes is better on soft surfaces, but it gets into a grey area when it's a rug sitting on a hard surface. There's no fast and easy rule.
Additional factors include not just the surface of the floor but the construction of the floor. Is the wood sprung or solidly supported or is there some other support? My wood floor are on a reinforced concrete substrate.

OTOH, while I have heard A/B comparisons at shows and believe that I can discern differences, none have been sufficient to motivate me to acquire any special footers or other devices.
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How stable are the F208’s on wooden floors? I have two small kids that are pretty good but we’re getting a Golden Retriever and they can be boisterous.

I’m debating maybe getting something like the soundocity outriggers if the towers aren’t stable on their own.


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post #11203 of 16513 Old 02-06-2018, 05:12 PM
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How stable are the F208’s on wooden floors? I have two small kids that are pretty good but we’re getting a Golden Retriever and they can be boisterous.

I’m debating maybe getting something like the soundocity outriggers if the towers aren’t stable on their own.

Them Soundocity outriggers do an outstanding job. I had some mounted to the bottom of my VTI speaker stands. The leveling feature is great.

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post #11204 of 16513 Old 02-06-2018, 05:16 PM
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Hey guys, looking into a center channel to go with my revel F36s. Is a center going to be necessary for movies? Does a C25 pair nicely?
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post #11205 of 16513 Old 02-06-2018, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Additional factors include not just the surface of the floor but the construction of the floor. Is the wood sprung or solidly supported or is there some other support? My wood floor are on a reinforced concrete substrate.

OTOH, while I have heard A/B comparisons at shows and believe that I can discern differences, none have been sufficient to motivate me to acquire any special footers or other devices.
When we did a down to the framing reno of my living room, we laid 2 layers of T&G plywood nominally equal 1 1/8" over 2x12 joists on 16" centers.
The 1st layer was glued & screwed. The 2nd layer was screwed with a layer of green glue applied between them.
The floor itself is 3/4 x 5 Santos Mahogany side-cleated with a 3mm cork underlayment.

It's about as solid as a lumber framed floor gets without being ridiculous.

 
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post #11206 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Curious why the C540 vs. the C763L - the C540 is a special purpose small in-ceiling with only a 4" woofer. For a general purpose in-ceiling, I would probably be looking at the C563 or C583 (keeping in the 5 series - a 6" and 8" woofer, respectively). Those would work fine for typical in-ceiling applications where you just want sound to fill the room, and imaging / localization for TV / music listening is not all that critical.

The C763L is designed to be an in-ceiling LCR or surround speaker. The dealer is correct that it will work considerably better for TV watching, as you can direct the sound at the listening area. It will also give you a better stereo image for music from the listening area as well.

I've posted this video many times, but here Kevin Voecks discusses the benefits of the C763L (originally called the IC15) at about 1:58:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbpGbFbEExI
Thanks, the c540 is to cover a little bit towards the corner of the living room where ceiling space is limited due to some woodwork. hence trying to find the smallest of in-ceilings so as to not be noticeable
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post #11207 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 03:20 AM
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Apologies if this has been answered already, and please redirect me if so.
Does anyone have experience of the S16 and S206 speakers as surrounds in a Dolby atmos set up?
Do the S16s have an advantage by being more directional?
Thanks
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post #11208 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
How stable are the F208’s on wooden floors? I have two small kids that are pretty good but we’re getting a Golden Retriever and they can be boisterous.

I’m debating maybe getting something like the soundocity outriggers if the towers aren’t stable on their own.

Pretty stable - much more so than the F36. However, if someone is determined they could knock them over

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post #11209 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 10:57 AM
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Hey guys, looking into a center channel to go with my revel F36s. Is a center going to be necessary for movies? Does a C25 pair nicely?
The C25 is the matching center for the F36, so yes, it pairs nicely If your budget allows, you might also look at the C208 from Revel, which would also pair nicely with the F36 and is a BEAST of a center channel.

I would say yes, a center channel speaker is critical for movies. About 70 - 80% of a film's soundtrack comes from the center speaker, and having the center means better dialogue clarity and better sound for those not sitting in the sweet spot between the two F36 towers (they will hear the dialogue coming from the screen location, not from the speaker closest to them).

While a "phantom center" can sound quite good if one is seated in the sweet spot, it's also true that there is an "interference dip" right around 2 khz due to cancellations inherent in stereo sound reproduction. This interference dip is right in the human vocal range, so again - a good center speaker will help solve this problem.
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post #11210 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by abinav555 View Post
Thanks, the c540 is to cover a little bit towards the corner of the living room where ceiling space is limited due to some woodwork. hence trying to find the smallest of in-ceilings so as to not be noticeable
Got it! Makes sense

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post #11211 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 11:04 AM
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Apologies if this has been answered already, and please redirect me if so.
Does anyone have experience of the S16 and S206 speakers as surrounds in a Dolby atmos set up?
Do the S16s have an advantage by being more directional?
Thanks
Exactly - the S16 is recommended for Atmos since it is more directional (a monopole instead of a bipole). You can use the S206 and you will get a bit more sense of spaciousness, but you will lose pinpoint imaging as specific sounds are panned around the room. For a rainstorm, the spaciousness is nice, but not so good if the mixer is trying to place a specific sound in that channel (say, a voice or wings flapping as a bird flies around the room).

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post #11212 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 12:45 PM
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Follow-up to my reply to @Venger99 - got a message from Dr. Toole disagreeing with me on the S16 vs. S206. He writes:

I disagree. Localization is totally determined by the direction from which the direct sound arrives. It matters not at all how much sound is radiated in other directions, except if reflections are energetic (an overly live room) there will be a spatial component. Such rooms are to be discouraged, so old fashioned, THX inspired, notions of a “diffuse” sound field from multidirectional speakers are misguided - rainstorms will not be significantly enhanced.

So, the real difference between the forward firing S16 and the widely dispersing S206 is what the direct sound sounds like. If the S16 is aimed at the listener it will sound good, but the listening window can only include a limited number of listeners so some rooms will put listeners off axis with the anticipated timbral degradation. EQ cannot fix this, as we know. Figure 15.9 in my new book illustrates the challenge for multiple row rooms. This is where the S206 is the right choice, as it has a much more uniform dispersion over large angles.

There is a “but” here. I have not seen a 2-pi spinorama on the S206, but if it adhered to the design principles of the Infinity Beta ES250 (see Figure 9.13 in my book) it should be an exemplary performer, exhibiting no consequential boundary effects and very wide uniform dispersion.


My understanding is that Harman is modifying their rooms so they can better measure speakers intended to be used in 2-pi space (up against a wall).

He also points out that he (and Harman) strongly discourages the use of dipoles - in any surround speaker application.
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post #11213 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 06:33 PM
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Does the F208be sound significantly different/better than the F208, this is primarily for movies and not music?
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post #11214 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Follow-up to my reply to @Venger99 - got a message from Dr. Toole disagreeing with me on the S16 vs. S206. He writes:

I disagree. Localization is totally determined by the direction from which the direct sound arrives. It matters not at all how much sound is radiated in other directions, except if reflections are energetic (an overly live room) there will be a spatial component. Such rooms are to be discouraged, so old fashioned, THX inspired, notions of a “diffuse” sound field from multidirectional speakers are misguided - rainstorms will not be significantly enhanced.

So, the real difference between the forward firing S16 and the widely dispersing S206 is what the direct sound sounds like. If the S16 is aimed at the listener it will sound good, but the listening window can only include a limited number of listeners so some rooms will put listeners off axis with the anticipated timbral degradation. EQ cannot fix this, as we know. Figure 15.9 in my new book illustrates the challenge for multiple row rooms. This is where the S206 is the right choice, as it has a much more uniform dispersion over large angles.

There is a “but” here. I have not seen a 2-pi spinorama on the S206, but if it adhered to the design principles of the Infinity Beta ES250 (see Figure 9.13 in my book) it should be an exemplary performer, exhibiting no consequential boundary effects and very wide uniform dispersion.


My understanding is that Harman is modifying their rooms so they can better measure speakers intended to be used in 2-pi space (up against a wall).

He also points out that he (and Harman) strongly discourages the use of dipoles - in any application.
Of course Floyd is correct. I would only add that the timbre of a good monopole is better than a bipole. Since we are long past the days of a limited-bandwidth mono surround channel, the rules have changed. I'll take a good monopole as a surround any day, but of course, if there are more than a couple of rows, additional pairs should be used.

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post #11215 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 07:18 PM
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He also points out that he (and Harman) strongly discourages the use of dipoles - in any application.
And yet, Magnepan and Martin Logan and other panel makers have a rabid following and have been delighting listeners for decades.
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post #11216 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 07:44 PM
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Does the F208be sound significantly different/better than the F208, this is primarily for movies and not music?
The F228Be is equally suited for movies or music. That said, I have never heard any movie that comes close to a good audio recording. Therefore, the differences are bound to be more evident with musical sources.

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post #11217 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 08:03 PM
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Follow-up to my reply to @Venger99 - got a message from Dr. Toole disagreeing with me on the S16 vs. S206. He writes:

I disagree. Localization is totally determined by the direction from which the direct sound arrives. It matters not at all how much sound is radiated in other directions, except if reflections are energetic (an overly live room) there will be a spatial component. Such rooms are to be discouraged, so old fashioned, THX inspired, notions of a “diffuse” sound field from multidirectional speakers are misguided - rainstorms will not be significantly enhanced.

So, the real difference between the forward firing S16 and the widely dispersing S206 is what the direct sound sounds like. If the S16 is aimed at the listener it will sound good, but the listening window can only include a limited number of listeners so some rooms will put listeners off axis with the anticipated timbral degradation. EQ cannot fix this, as we know. Figure 15.9 in my new book illustrates the challenge for multiple row rooms. This is where the S206 is the right choice, as it has a much more uniform dispersion over large angles.

There is a “but” here. I have not seen a 2-pi spinorama on the S206, but if it adhered to the design principles of the Infinity Beta ES250 (see Figure 9.13 in my book) it should be an exemplary performer, exhibiting no consequential boundary effects and very wide uniform dispersion.

My understanding is that Harman is modifying their rooms so they can better measure speakers intended to be used in 2-pi space (up against a wall).

He also points out that he (and Harman) strongly discourages the use of dipoles - in any application.

Edit: I'll remove most of my comment given the possibilities that Mr Toole was misquoted. True, dipoles have faults with the major one being setup and positioning to get the best out of them, but when you do .....

I'm still with them 60 years later.

Now admittedly, I didn't take a good listen to Revel, but intend to do so this year.

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post #11218 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Hilarious actually. From what I've heard several times from presumably his flagship, the JBL 67000 Everest, Harman has little room to talk about any other design. Many who walked into the Audio Solutions/Harman room at Axpona 2017 and then to room, 1247, the Constellation room with the ML 15As may have gotten a taste of what I'm talking about. True, dipoles have faults with the major one being setup and positioning to get the best out of them, but when you do .....

I'm still with them 60 years later.
Who's flagship?

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post #11219 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 08:08 PM
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Who's flagship?

"his flagship, the JBL 67000 Everest, Harman "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harman...nal_Industries

https://jblsynthesis.com/productdeta...t-dd67000.html

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post #11220 of 16513 Old 02-07-2018, 08:10 PM
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You said "his flagship." Who is he?

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