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post #11761 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 06:59 AM
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Revel Performa F228Be and M126Be at AXPONA

We are demonstrating the brand new Performa F228Be and M126Be speakers all day in room 330, courtesy of D Digital. We will play the F228Be’s until the last hour of the show each day, at which time we will demonstrate the M126Be’s. If you heard the very early prototypes before, be sure to listen to the real thing, which have just begun shipping.

Please stop by and listen, and I will be delighted to answer questions and talk about anything audio.

Kevin Voecks
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post #11762 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by avkv View Post
We are demonstrating the brand new Performa F228Be and M126Be speakers all day in room 330, courtesy of D Digital. We will play the F228Be’s until the last hour of the show each day, at which time we will demonstrate the M126Be’s. If you heard the very early prototypes before, be sure to listen to the real thing, which have just begun shipping.

Please stop by and listen, and I will be delighted to answer questions and talk about anything audio.

Kevin Voecks


kevin, are you able to talk about the reccomended center for the 228be? Is there a performaBe center in the works?
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post #11763 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by avkv View Post
We are demonstrating the brand new Performa F228Be and M126Be speakers all day in room 330, courtesy of D Digital. We will play the F228Be’s until the last hour of the show each day, at which time we will demonstrate the M126Be’s. If you heard the very early prototypes before, be sure to listen to the real thing, which have just begun shipping.

Please stop by and listen, and I will be delighted to answer questions and talk about anything audio.

Kevin Voecks
Any changes since it’s showing at Axpona 2017? Not sure if it was considered early prototype a year ago.
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post #11764 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by avkv View Post
We are demonstrating the brand new Performa F228Be and M126Be speakers all day in room 330, courtesy of D Digital. We will play the F228Be’s until the last hour of the show each day, at which time we will demonstrate the M126Be’s. If you heard the very early prototypes before, be sure to listen to the real thing, which have just begun shipping.

Please stop by and listen, and I will be delighted to answer questions and talk about anything audio.

Kevin Voecks


kevin, are you able to talk about the reccomended center for the 228be? Is there a performaBe center in the works?
Our target response, essentially the timbre, is the same, whether it is an in-ceiling speaker or an Ultima. As a result, all Revel speakers have similar fundamental sound quality, which is of course to impart no coloration. As a result, it is possible to “mix and match” to a great degree. That said, the C208 is the best match for the F228Be’s. There is no plan to create a Be version at this time. I recognize that there is a great desire among audiophiles, fueled at least in part from ill-informed published “info” indicating that the key is to assure that the same transducers are utilized in speakers used in the same system. But in reality, utilization of the same transducers in a different speaker assures nothing. In fact, the different transducer orientation in a center channel, as compared to a L/R speaker, presents the greater challenge to achieving a sonic match between the L/R and center channel.

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post #11765 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 07:37 AM
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Our target response, essentially the timbre, is the same, whether it is an in-ceiling speaker or an Ultima. As a result, all Revel speakers have similar fundamental sound quality, which is of course to impart no coloration. As a result, it is possible to “mix and match” to a great degree. That said, the C208 is the best match for the F228Be’s. There is no plan to create a Be version at this time. I recognize that there is a great desire among audiophiles, fueled at least in part from ill-informed published “info” indicating that the key is to assure that the same transducers are utilized in speakers used in the same system. But in reality, utilization of the same transducers in a different speaker assures nothing. In fact, the different transducer orientation in a center channel, as compared to a L/R speaker, presents the greater challenge to achieving a sonic match between the L/R and center channel.

Kevin
Thanks! So.....c208 over the Voice2?
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post #11766 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
Which makes it ever more baffling their speakers don't measure well, at that same NRC anechoic chamber.

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Revel M106 listening window: ($2000 pair)

It's a puzzler, isn't it...
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post #11767 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 10:10 AM
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Thanks! So.....c208 over the Voice2?
From an aesthetic POV probably yes. But since the center channel in a surround setup is arguably the most important channel of them all, from a performance POV the Voice2 seems like the better choice since KV has already explained how all of the Revel speakers have the same target (accurate production).
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post #11768 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 10:16 AM
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Well, the best center would be another F228 but not always practical and I know what you meant. ;-p
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post #11769 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 11:48 AM
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Speaking of measurements, are there any of the F228/M126 yet or did I miss them further up?
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post #11770 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by avkv View Post
We are demonstrating the brand new Performa F228Be and M126Be speakers all day in room 330, courtesy of D Digital. We will play the F228Be’s until the last hour of the show each day, at which time we will demonstrate the M126Be’s. If you heard the very early prototypes before, be sure to listen to the real thing, which have just begun shipping.

Please stop by and listen, and I will be delighted to answer questions and talk about anything audio.

Kevin Voecks
Dusan of D. Digital is a stand up guy and I would send anybody in the market his way. If my wife ever gets home with my car i'll head out.
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post #11771 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 12:29 PM
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Dusan of D. Digital is a stand up guy and I would send anybody in the market his way. If my wife ever gets home with my car i'll head out.
Über

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post #11772 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 12:51 PM
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It's a puzzler, isn't it...

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post #11773 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 03:50 PM
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Speaking of measurements, are there any of the F228/M126 yet or did I miss them further up?
Same here, can't wait to see some spins on the F228. Come on Kevin and John!

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post #11774 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 05:28 PM
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Same here, can't wait to see some spins on the F228. Come on Kevin and John!
Here you go. From the Axpona 2018 recap thread.

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Revel: Performa F228be.... man, today has been a parade of phenomenal speakers. These things are special. They have that top to bottom transparency and neutrality you expect from Revel, they can thrash Rammstein and irresponsible levels then immediately switch to nuanced jazz vocals, then to full scale orchestral and do it with aplomb, presenting a wide, deep, and believable sound stage with appropriate imaging.

I may see a pair of these in my future.
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Well, I was going to try to hit another room, but as I was walking out the Revel guys switched out the F228bes for the M126bes, so I figured I’d hang out for a listen.

I still haven’t left. These things are stupid good, stupid, stupid, stupid, good. They have amazing bass, clarity, imaging, the works, and $4,000/pair.

These may be just as good as those TADs I was raving about earlier.
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post #11775 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 06:49 PM
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Thanks Aliens, I didn't see any spinorama data for the 228's, are you sure its some where in there? Thanks again.

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post #11776 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 07:37 PM
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Thanks Aliens, I didn't see any spinorama data for the 228's, are you sure its some where in there? Thanks again.
No spins, just inaptly chosen words to introduce that link.
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post #11777 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
Which makes it ever more baffling their speakers don't measure well, at that same NRC anechoic chamber.

Persona B listening window ($7000 pair)



Revel M106 listening window: ($2000 pair)

The FR of the Persona series are a little non-conventional, I'll give you that, but after room correction it'll play much louder without distortion than any other metal driver diaphragm (aluminum, titanium, etc), and suffers far less driver bending allowing a much wider and consistent soundstage. Since I have both the Bs and the M106s I can assure you they aren't anywhere near the same class of speaker, the M106s will distort audibly during transients playing brighter material that simply isn't an issue on the Persona, and the wonky FR can be fixed with a multi-measurement correction system like Dirac Live. I'll be getting the M126Bes to compare once they are out, as I believe ceramic is a very high end midrange diaphragm material and even has some advantages when compared to beryllium.

Last edited by astrallite; 04-14-2018 at 08:08 PM.
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post #11778 of 16074 Old 04-14-2018, 09:27 PM
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...Since I have both the Bs and the M106s I can assure you they aren't anywhere near the same class of speaker, the M106s will distort audibly during transients playing brighter material that simply isn't an issue on the Persona...
I'm surprised to hear the M106 ran out of gas too soon. What kind of transients and how loud were they when they distorted?

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post #11779 of 16074 Old 04-15-2018, 12:18 AM
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I guess the folks at Revel will have to put one in the MLL now to see if that holds up
The off axis response charts are worse by the way when compared to the M106.

Anyhow, I have a a pair M105s which I use in a bass managed system, and they can get plenty loud. It's correct both the JBL 705 and 708 which I also own can play a bit louder without strain but the Revels are by no means a slouch.
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post #11780 of 16074 Old 04-15-2018, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by pioferro View Post
Same here, can't wait to see some spins on the F228. Come on Kevin and John!
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Thanks Aliens, I didn't see any spinorama data for the 228's, are you sure its some where in there? Thanks again.
LOL. Not familiar with spinorama. Thought you were using spin as slang.
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post #11781 of 16074 Old 04-15-2018, 06:08 AM
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LOL. Not familiar with spinorama. Thought you were using spin as slang.
Spinorama is Harman's nickname for their sophisticated speaker measurement apparatus. "Spin" as used in our context refers to the FR graphs that result from these measurements. Do a search for the term in this thread and you'll find it's been discussed frequently, with nearly all of the Revel spins provided.
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post #11782 of 16074 Old 04-15-2018, 06:26 AM
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LOL. Not familiar with spinorama. Thought you were using spin as slang.
All good, the spinorama data is the frequency response sheet that adds up the speakers behavior on-axis and at varrying degrees off-axis along with sound power and its directivity index. Its a ton of info on one sheet - really paints a picture of how a speaker behaves.
The Harman boys have found [through tons of reserarch and actual testing at the MLL] that the smoother the response on and off axis, the higher the preference is.

I can’t wait to see how the new 228 compares to my 208s and my faves, the 4367s.

Edit: or, what Filmnut said
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post #11783 of 16074 Old 04-15-2018, 07:39 AM
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I suspect the M126Be will have a better matched directivity through the crossover range, due to it being lowered (1.7khz vs 2.3khz) as the M106 still had a slight mismatch on paper there...Plus a few added benefits from newer mid/woofers.. Be tweeter and possibly a newer generation waveguide.
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post #11784 of 16074 Old 04-15-2018, 07:41 AM
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It's a puzzler, isn't it...
Not really. Paradigm is smart company and if they came out with a speaker that measures like this there is a reason. Paradigm does a lot of their own research and listening tests as well as having a very large anechoic chamber. They are no dummies in the audio world by any means. Maybe their research showed different preferences. While these aren't ruler flat they are within about +/- 2.5db and are Ok (not great) off axis.

While I personally prefer a more accurate speakers I have a friend that is an enthusiast and was looking to upgrade his Focal Micro Utopia speakers for no other reason than he got the upgrade itch. He compared easily over a dozen speaker models. He asked me for what some of the current models he should consider. One of the models I recommend he try was the Revel Ultima series. He would take speakers home to listen in his room from dealers that allowed this or bring his speakers to dealers to compare. He traveled quite a bit around New England in his search. The Persona wasn't out yet but before the Utopias he had Paradigm Signatures. He did try the Prestige but didn't think they were as good as his current speakers but better than some he listened. Anyway, after all his listening one of his comments to me was. Those Revels were my least favorite of all the speakers he listened. He thought they sounded "flat and lifeless, with no sound stage". He listened to that at a dealer and not in his home. He wondered if it was maybe the electronics they paired it with. It is also the same store he listened to some Sonus Fabers and Focal Sopra.

What did he end up getting? He kept his current speakers. He liked the Focal Diablo better but didn't think it was worth spending the money for a slight improvement. He thought the Sopra would be a lateral move but was also very good. His next favorite other than the Focals he thought one of the Sonus Faber models (?Venere) was also excellent. He loved the finish of the Sonus Faber speakers though. The funny thing is the Revel measures similarly to the Focals. Hmmm. Different strokes for different folks.

One of the differences between Paradigm and Harman is Paradigm does not publish any of its research or testing. I think many other companies keep their results as "company secrets". While other companies might not publish their results does not mean they don't do any. I respect Harman for being open about their research and give them a BIG kudos!
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post #11785 of 16074 Old 04-15-2018, 11:25 AM
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Speaking of measurements, are there any of the F228/M126 yet or did I miss them further up?
Harman is still updating their chambers so that they can also get more accurate measurements for some of the larger in-wall Synthesis models. We should have spins before long.
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post #11786 of 16074 Old 04-15-2018, 12:02 PM
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Not really. Paradigm is smart company and if they came out with a speaker that measures like this there is a reason. Paradigm does a lot of their own research and listening tests as well as having a very large anechoic chamber. They are no dummies in the audio world by any means. Maybe their research showed different preferences. While these aren't ruler flat they are within about +/- 2.5db and are Ok (not great) off axis.

While I personally prefer a more accurate speakers I have a friend that is an enthusiast and was looking to upgrade his Focal Micro Utopia speakers for no other reason than he got the upgrade itch. He compared easily over a dozen speaker models. He asked me for what some of the current models he should consider. One of the models I recommend he try was the Revel Ultima series. He would take speakers home to listen in his room from dealers that allowed this or bring his speakers to dealers to compare. He traveled quite a bit around New England in his search. The Persona wasn't out yet but before the Utopias he had Paradigm Signatures. He did try the Prestige but didn't think they were as good as his current speakers but better than some he listened. Anyway, after all his listening one of his comments to me was. Those Revels were my least favorite of all the speakers he listened. He thought they sounded "flat and lifeless, with no sound stage". He listened to that at a dealer and not in his home. He wondered if it was maybe the electronics they paired it with. It is also the same store he listened to some Sonus Fabers and Focal Sopra.

What did he end up getting? He kept his current speakers. He liked the Focal Diablo better but didn't think it was worth spending the money for a slight improvement. He thought the Sopra would be a lateral move but was also very good. His next favorite other than the Focals he thought one of the Sonus Faber models (?Venere) was also excellent. He loved the finish of the Sonus Faber speakers though. The funny thing is the Revel measures similarly to the Focals. Hmmm. Different strokes for different folks.

One of the differences between Paradigm and Harman is Paradigm does not publish any of its research or testing. I think many other companies keep their results as "company secrets". While other companies might not publish their results does not mean they don't do any. I respect Harman for being open about their research and give them a BIG kudos!
I agree with much of the above, which is why it's a puzzler, IMO. FWIW, I am also a Paradigm dealer (in fact, was their dealer of the year several times during the late 2000s), so believe me, I'm not gunning to bring down Paradigm. Reason I like them is because of their dedication to the science and their investment in R&D, as you point out.

Again, that's what makes their voicing a puzzle. I've shot out Paradigm models against Revel several times here, and the result is always the same - the Paradigms sound "brighter" and a bit "detached" in the upper frequencies. I thought one person I know put it perfectly - they said that the "treble rides on top" of the sound, which was their way of expressing what I meant by "detached."

I don't want to make it sound like the Paradigms are poor speakers in any way - I hold them in high regard. I'm just reporting my subjective opinion. I've heard the Personas as well at shows and thought they sounded really good. But my own opinions there are just as valid as anyone else who heard different speakers in different locations with different source material - as in, not very. The tests I have done have been with the Prestige models against Concerta2 and Performa3 under at least somewhat controlled circumstances.

One of the things the NRC and Harman research has found is that people in their upper 50s or older may prefer a brighter sound, most likely to overcome hearing deficiencies. Could that explain how some might prefer the Paradigm or Focal voicing? Who knows; all just pure conjecture on my part. Some reasons I think this may be so:

I have a customer who has pretty severe high frequency hearing loss. Not only does he prefer his Focals, he also turns up the treble as well. To me and my installers, the system sounds like it is screaming. However, the customer likes it so is quite happy.

A speaker designer can have access to all the best facilities in the world and understand the science, yet still believe they personally have "golden ears" and tune their speaker designs based on their own preferences. This was true of one of the previous speaker designers at Harman (no longer there). Again, access to all the best equipment and research, yet overrode everything based on a "I know best" attitude. It really complicates things when the golden-eared designer has pretty severe hearing loss after decades of listening to loud music and test tones. Conversely, you can see genuine humility in Dr. Toole's posts where he removed himself from listening tests when his own hearing became unreliable (which is why he goes on so much about protecting our hearing).

RE: the PersonaB vs. the M106. Never have tried it under blind conditions here, but it's certainly possible that the B would have greater dynamics than the standard M106. That is literally one of the main advantages of the M126Be, and part of what spurred the re-design - a desire for greater dynamic capability.

Not really sanguine about room correction being employed to "fix" a speaker. I believe Dr. Toole has gone on at length about that elsewhere in the various Harman threads.

All of that said, like you salute Harman for publishing their research, I salute Paradigm for being dedicated to solid science and R&D.
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post #11787 of 16074 Old 04-15-2018, 01:14 PM
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Dynamics: The same could be said for the JBL 705/708 compared to the Performa3 bookshelves .. although it doesn't have the nice furniture grade cabinet obviously
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post #11788 of 16074 Old 04-15-2018, 01:24 PM
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one of the biggest differences when picking a speaker is the music you listen to. maybe the revels are the most neutral out there and play everything on a science based level field. I would say they are a very honest baseline. psb a bit darker and focal a bit brighter...idk...as long as speakers disappear and draw you into the music..make you want to listen to more music...thats whats most important.
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Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
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post #11789 of 16074 Old 04-15-2018, 01:45 PM
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In Harman's testing it showed the majority of listeners preferred accurate speakers with a good off axis response. What it didn't state is what the minority preferred? Were they familiar with the material? I have my own theory on some of this I call "Mom's spaghetti rule" and is an observation with customers. I call it that is because everybody's mom (or grandma, etc) makes the best spaghetti. I come from an Italian family

I think many of us have a reference sound for the music we listen. In today's world that reference might be the car, headphones, ear buds, wireless speaker, etc. Few sit and listen to music on good speakers. I know when I have calibrated systems some customers would say they like it better the way they had it. Typically the way had it had quite a bit of boosted bass and now the bass in the initial listening sounds weak. I ask them to try it that way for a while then I will come back and we'll listen again and decide which they like better. I tell them I will boost the bass back if they don't like it.

Unanimously, when I have done this and they listen to the bass boosted again with the EQ turned off, they now think it is boomy and not tight. So did they get used to the system the way it is now? Or have they become better listeners now that they have heard a calibrated system? Do they have a new reference now? Are they now used to their wife's spaghetti and like it over their Mom's spaghetti now

I don't know. I do know that with most of the enthusiast crowd wants to hear the speakers. They don't look at graphs and measurements and buy a speaker based solely on how well it performs. Maybe some of the subwoofer guys do this to get the most low end output for the money. I like to believe that most would prefer accurate sound. But, if there reference is not accurate sound how long before they change their preferences? For many people just listening for short period in the store would something brighter, warmer, smoother insert audiophile adjective be preferred? If you are looking at speaker sales and a short amount of listening time is it better to voice a speaker to a different sound? It doesn't mater if it is accurate if it doesn't sell. Sometimes research brings up more questions than answers
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post #11790 of 16074 Old 04-15-2018, 01:47 PM
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And as Tim states. Looks do play a role even in Harman's sighted tests.
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