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post #11821 of 16514 Old 04-17-2018, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
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Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post
Anyone know if D Digital (Revel vendor in Chicago) has a showroom that's walk in or if it's appointment only? If appointment only, anyone go before?
From the lower part of the website.
Yeah, appears to be appointment only. I never really know when I’m going to be headed down that way. Appears to be the closest since Barrett’s stopped displaying Revel.
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post #11822 of 16514 Old 04-17-2018, 09:15 PM
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I am currently considering the following speakers:

Revel F208 pair R&L
Revel C208 center
Revel S206 side surrounds
Revel M105 rear surrounds

VS

JTR Speakers:

JTR 210RT - R&L
JTR 210RM - Center
JTR 8 side - Surrounds
JTR 8 rear - Surrounds

VS

Tekton Design (pretty ugly for a living room)

Double Impact SE - R&L
Double Impact - Oversize Center (7 tweeters)
Double Impact - Surrounds
Double Impact - Rear Surrounds

VS

Legacy Audio

Focus SE / XD - R&L
MARQUIS XD - Center
Studio HD - Side Surrounds
Studio HD - Rear Surrounds

VS

Revel Salon2's /
or the new F228Be

VS

Paradigm Persona series 7F or 5F

VS

Other suggestions?

This is mainly going to be for movies. I would say approximately 80/20 or 70/30 movies / music. Might listen to more music after upgrading! I generally have the volume between -5 to -10 for movies and about the same for music. For music I listen to electronic, hip hop & rap, country and rock. From time to time I do enjoy classical piano.

I know I have written down some $2,000 speakers as well as some $6,500 each speakers. I would prefer to get 95% of the performance for less money if possible. I guess I am kind of looking for the best "do it all" speaker setup that can crush and slam movies with enveloping sound and imaging like a 3D bubble-- but then also be great to listen with music. I am going to upgrade the front stage first, maybe even just the R&L depending on price and then build from there.

The Revels don't seem very sensitive compared to the others so I think I would go with a D-sonic amp of 400wpc x 7 to power them if I went that route. Would an Emotiva XPA-7 with 200wpc be enough? The D-sonic is only $1,000 more for 2x the power.

I currently have a 7.1 system with Klipsch RF280 R&L and 440c center, 250s (bipole) as surrounds and 160m as rear surrounds. I will be doing 4 ceiling atmos eventually with probably either Revel c783 or 583, KEF Ci200QR or RSL C34E.

I would prefer if recommended towers were less than 60 inches or so tall, and a center not higher than 14 inches. I really wanted to checkout Triad Platinum in room series but their center is 17 inches high which would make my TV raised pretty high... 17 inch high center is doable if it would be "worth it." The towers will be going close to the side and rear walls (within 6 inches to the side and maybe a foot to the rear). I just can't have a massive 16x40 inch speaker in my living room as a center channel.

These will go in a large 7500ft3 living room room. The room is that large, but there is a dropdown area (4 inch drop about a 13x15 rectangle) to where the sofas are setup in an L shape and then the TV in front about 13 feet away from the MLP. So the main listening is in this smaller compartment of the larger room.

I just got the denon 4400 today and used their new room correction app and it made a HUGE difference and was like an upgrade in itself so I'm excited to see the difference between Klipsch and other (very) high end speakers.

I also have a cap 1400 from JTR which I love and will either add a second 1400 or upgrade to dual 2400s.

Whew that was a lot to type out. I may make this a separate thread to get other opinions as well but wanted to see what you guys thought

EDIT: I am now also considering used Revel Salon2's / or the new F228Be or Paradigm Persona 7f or 5f

Last edited by Drew1204; 04-18-2018 at 12:55 AM.
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post #11823 of 16514 Old 04-18-2018, 09:06 AM
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^I think you might get a broader range of input by starting that separate thread. This being a Revel thread, many potential contributors may not peek in here.
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post #11824 of 16514 Old 04-18-2018, 09:30 AM
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@Drew1204

Surprised there are no responses yet.

Since this is a Revel thread, I imagine there will be some brand bias.

Have you heard any of the mentioned speakers?
Since you’re in a large space and mostly movies AND currently using a HE horn based speaker, I would lean towards recommending the JTR and if you don’t mind the aesthetics I would steer you towards the PSA line of speakers.

I’m working on a similar system although 5.2 and more percentage music vs HT.

F208 and C208 with similar amplification.
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post #11825 of 16514 Old 04-18-2018, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew1204 View Post
I am currently considering the following speakers:

Revel F208 pair R&L
Revel C208 center
Revel S206 side surrounds
Revel M105 rear surrounds

VS

JTR Speakers:

JTR 210RT - R&L
JTR 210RM - Center
JTR 8 side - Surrounds
JTR 8 rear - Surrounds

VS

Tekton Design (pretty ugly for a living room)

Double Impact SE - R&L
Double Impact - Oversize Center (7 tweeters)
Double Impact - Surrounds
Double Impact - Rear Surrounds

VS

Legacy Audio

Focus SE / XD - R&L
MARQUIS XD - Center
Studio HD - Side Surrounds
Studio HD - Rear Surrounds

VS

Revel Salon2's /
or the new F228Be

VS

Paradigm Persona series 7F or 5F

VS

Other suggestions?

This is mainly going to be for movies. I would say approximately 80/20 or 70/30 movies / music. Might listen to more music after upgrading! I generally have the volume between -5 to -10 for movies and about the same for music. For music I listen to electronic, hip hop & rap, country and rock. From time to time I do enjoy classical piano.

I know I have written down some $2,000 speakers as well as some $6,500 each speakers. I would prefer to get 95% of the performance for less money if possible. I guess I am kind of looking for the best "do it all" speaker setup that can crush and slam movies with enveloping sound and imaging like a 3D bubble-- but then also be great to listen with music. I am going to upgrade the front stage first, maybe even just the R&L depending on price and then build from there.

The Revels don't seem very sensitive compared to the others so I think I would go with a D-sonic amp of 400wpc x 7 to power them if I went that route. Would an Emotiva XPA-7 with 200wpc be enough? The D-sonic is only $1,000 more for 2x the power.

I currently have a 7.1 system with Klipsch RF280 R&L and 440c center, 250s (bipole) as surrounds and 160m as rear surrounds. I will be doing 4 ceiling atmos eventually with probably either Revel c783 or 583, KEF Ci200QR or RSL C34E.

I would prefer if recommended towers were less than 60 inches or so tall, and a center not higher than 14 inches. I really wanted to checkout Triad Platinum in room series but their center is 17 inches high which would make my TV raised pretty high... 17 inch high center is doable if it would be "worth it." The towers will be going close to the side and rear walls (within 6 inches to the side and maybe a foot to the rear). I just can't have a massive 16x40 inch speaker in my living room as a center channel.

These will go in a large 7500ft3 living room room. The room is that large, but there is a dropdown area (4 inch drop about a 13x15 rectangle) to where the sofas are setup in an L shape and then the TV in front about 13 feet away from the MLP. So the main listening is in this smaller compartment of the larger room.

I just got the denon 4400 today and used their new room correction app and it made a HUGE difference and was like an upgrade in itself so I'm excited to see the difference between Klipsch and other (very) high end speakers.

I also have a cap 1400 from JTR which I love and will either add a second 1400 or upgrade to dual 2400s.

Whew that was a lot to type out. I may make this a separate thread to get other opinions as well but wanted to see what you guys thought

EDIT: I am now also considering used Revel Salon2's / or the new F228Be or Paradigm Persona 7f or 5f
AS mentioned above, you are going to get lots of pro-Revel feedback here in the Revel thread. I honestly do think it's justified (there is no other speaker line more scientifically validated, thanks to double blind listening comparisons with the competition, and the fact that Revel / JBL designs can be found on just about every critical mix and mastering stage in the world, like the nine Salon2s in one of Dolby Labs Critical Listening Rooms).

And you have even more reason to be skeptical of me, since in the interest of full disclosure I am a dealer for Revel and Paradigm. Still, the reason I ended up with Revel is because of the scientific validation mentioned above. It's one thing for a manufacturer to claim their speakers are superior, it's another to actual demonstrate it under scientifically controlled conditions.

Going down your list:

First system - great Performa3 system, fantastic bang for the buck. The F208 has been shot out against speakers literally 5 times its price and has come out on top.

JTR system - have only heard JTR at audio shows, so can't make any real comment. After doing speaker listening tests for many years I hesitate to draw conclusions when listening to different source material in different rooms. AFAIK, there are no published measurements on these speakers.

Tekton Design - haven't heard these, but their website is so full of pseudo-science and outrageous claims I would dismiss them just based on that basis (moving mass of instruments?). But that's just me...

Legacy Audio - have not heard them, so can't comment. Again, would be great to have some measurements.

Salon2 system - no speaker has yet beat the Salon2 in double blind, controlled listening sessions at the MLL in Northridge. Like the F208, they've been shot out against just about any high end speaker you can think of.

Personas - I have heard these at shows and have liked what I heard. I've only seen measurements of the PersonaB, and it seems that Paradigm has gone after kind of a brighter voicing (consistent with other Paradigm speakers). Take a look at this measurement of the listening PersonaB, undertaken at the NRC labs in Canada (full measurements at www.soundstage.com):



Compare that to the listening window of the Revel F206, the smaller brother of the F208:



You can compare a lot of independent measurements of speakers on soundstage.com - a great resource. Here's the Salon2:



You will see a trend - the Revel speakers are all extremely flat and neutral. The design goal is flat and accurate response, with the idea being you will hear exactly what is in the recording, nothing less and nothing more. The Revel goal idea is that the speaker should get out of the way and simply let you hear what's in the recording without adding any coloration of its own. As a film mixer and film composer myself, that's exactly what I would want

I know most of the above would be an upgrade over the Klipsch models.

The F208 system hits your bang for the buck sweet spot.

Have paired F208s with many an Emotiva amp - think you will be fine.

The new F228Be will be a more "refined" version of the F208 with greater dynamic capability and a bit more efficiency.

Hope all of that helps! Don't skimp on a center speaker - it's the most important speaker in your home theater.

Broken record time - don't forget, there is a TON of music in movies. I'm sure John Williams, Danny Elfman and Hans Zimmer would agree with me
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post #11826 of 16514 Old 04-18-2018, 11:42 AM
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Pseudoscience aside, the Tekton's design with the ring of tweeters around the tweeter looks interesting. I wonder if a design like that can potentially behave like a concentric midrange as in KEF's designs but without the IM distortion. However, downsides include trypophobia.

Also, Drew1204, everything John Schuermann said above is straight on. You can find also poor measurements on Legacy Audio speakers from Stereophile.
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post #11827 of 16514 Old 04-18-2018, 12:22 PM
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Pseudoscience aside, the Tekton's design with the ring of tweeters around the tweeter looks interesting. I wonder if a design like that can potentially behave like a concentric midrange as in KEF's designs but without the IM distortion. However, downsides include trypophobia.

Also, Drew1204, everything John Schuermann said above is straight on. You can find also poor measurements on Legacy Audio speakers from Stereophile.
Yeah, apparently not all of the tweeters in the array get a full-range tweeter signal, some are crossed higher or lower so are acting more like upper midrange drivers. I heard the Impact Monitors at AXPONA and they have a very direct 'live' sound, but also sounded a bit like PA speakers IMO. The Revel M126bes were much better (as were many other standmounts and bookshelves).

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post #11828 of 16514 Old 04-18-2018, 01:06 PM
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^I think you might get a broader range of input by starting that separate thread. This being a Revel thread, many potential contributors may not peek in here.
Good idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
@Drew1204

Surprised there are no responses yet.

Since this is a Revel thread, I imagine there will be some brand bias.

Have you heard any of the mentioned speakers?
Since you’re in a large space and mostly movies AND currently using a HE horn based speaker, I would lean towards recommending the JTR and if you don’t mind the aesthetics I would steer you towards the PSA line of speakers.

I’m working on a similar system although 5.2 and more percentage music vs HT.

F208 and C208 with similar amplification.
I haven't heard any of them yet. I live in Phoenix so am looking around now for some good places where I can at least hear the Revels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
AS mentioned above, you are going to get lots of pro-Revel feedback here in the Revel thread. I honestly do think it's justified (there is no other speaker line more scientifically validated, thanks to double blind listening comparisons with the competition, and the fact that Revel / JBL designs can be found on just about every critical mix and mastering stage in the world, like the nine Salon2s in one of Dolby Labs Critical Listening Rooms).

And you have even more reason to be skeptical of me, since in the interest of full disclosure I am a dealer for Revel and Paradigm. Still, the reason I ended up with Revel is because of the scientific validation mentioned above. It's one thing for a manufacturer to claim their speakers are superior, it's another to actual demonstrate it under scientifically controlled conditions.

Going down your list:

First system - great Performa3 system, fantastic bang for the buck. The F208 has been shot out against speakers literally 5 times its price and has come out on top.

JTR system - have only heard JTR at audio shows, so can't make any real comment. After doing speaker listening tests for many years I hesitate to draw conclusions when listening to different source material in different rooms. AFAIK, there are no published measurements on these speakers.

Tekton Design - haven't heard these, but their website is so full of pseudo-science and outrageous claims I would dismiss them just based on that basis (moving mass of instruments?). But that's just me...

Legacy Audio - have not heard them, so can't comment. Again, would be great to have some measurements.

Salon2 system - no speaker has yet beat the Salon2 in double blind, controlled listening sessions at the MLL in Northridge. Like the F208, they've been shot out against just about any high end speaker you can think of.

Personas - I have heard these at shows and have liked what I heard. I've only seen measurements of the PersonaB, and it seems that Paradigm has gone after kind of a brighter voicing (consistent with other Paradigm speakers). Take a look at this measurement of the listening PersonaB, undertaken at the NRC labs in Canada (full measurements at www.soundstage.com):



Compare that to the listening window of the Revel F206, the smaller brother of the F208:



You can compare a lot of independent measurements of speakers on soundstage.com - a great resource. Here's the Salon2:



You will see a trend - the Revel speakers are all extremely flat and neutral. The design goal is flat and accurate response, with the idea being you will hear exactly what is in the recording, nothing less and nothing more. The Revel goal idea is that the speaker should get out of the way and simply let you hear what's in the recording without adding any coloration of its own. As a film mixer and film composer myself, that's exactly what I would want

I know most of the above would be an upgrade over the Klipsch models.

The F208 system hits your bang for the buck sweet spot.

Have paired F208s with many an Emotiva amp - think you will be fine.

The new F228Be will be a more "refined" version of the F208 with greater dynamic capability and a bit more efficiency.

Hope all of that helps! Don't skimp on a center speaker - it's the most important speaker in your home theater.

Broken record time - don't forget, there is a TON of music in movies. I'm sure John Williams, Danny Elfman and Hans Zimmer would agree with me

Hi John, thanks a lot for responding and answering all of my questions! How does the Salk Sound 8 with RAAL tweeters compare with something like the F208 or the Salon2 for home theater? Here is a measurement:

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post #11829 of 16514 Old 04-18-2018, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Drew1204 View Post

--- Omitted ---

Hi John, thanks a lot for responding and answering all of my questions! How does the Salk Sound 8 with RAAL tweeters compare with something like the F208 or the Salon2 for home theater?

--- Omitted ---
John is unfortunately just encouraging you on your random walk through a wide variety of unrelated speakers. Why don't start you own thread where you can explore all of the available speakers, and happily bounce from one thought to another?
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post #11830 of 16514 Old 04-18-2018, 02:27 PM
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Yeah, apparently not all of the tweeters in the array get a full-range tweeter signal, some are crossed higher or lower so are acting more like upper midrange drivers. I heard the Impact Monitors at AXPONA and they have a very direct 'live' sound, but also sounded a bit like PA speakers IMO. The Revel M126bes were much better (as were many other standmounts and bookshelves).
Looking up MSRP on both, one is circa $2000 while the other is near $4000, IIRC. So it would stand to reason. Did you still find many other bookshelves/standmounts better even at relatively similar price points to the Impacts (in your opinion, allowing for possible room variance factors, etc.)?

Just curious. I'm not a fan of his (frankly, bizarre) marketing either.
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post #11831 of 16514 Old 04-18-2018, 04:01 PM
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Looking up MSRP on both, one is circa $2000 while the other is near $4000, IIRC. So it would stand to reason. Did you still find many other bookshelves/standmounts better even at relatively similar price points to the Impacts (in your opinion, allowing for possible room variance factors, etc.)?

Just curious. I'm not a fan of his (frankly, bizarre) marketing either.
They weren't at the show but I'd take the plain-Jane Revel M106s over them at the same cost. At the show the Elac Adante AS-61 was better IMO, though it's $500 more. Vehement Audio had a Philharmonitor/Ascend Sierra RAAL clone that sounded better at about the same price point as well.

With their high sensitivity the Impact Monitors could be solid HT speakers, but so were the Hsu CCB-8s at a much, much, lower price (and they were pretty dang good with music paired with Hsu's VTF-1 sub as well).
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post #11832 of 16514 Old 04-19-2018, 04:11 PM
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drew1204, I had speakers that measured flat, Kef R105/3 +/- 2db 50-17000hz that were a real hassle to get quality sound from, in fact I ended up spending a small fortune making them musical. On the opposite end I had a pair of Vienna Acoustics Beethovens that measure poor compared to most modern speakers yhet they were the most musical and revealing speakers i've owned! I sold them because they couldn't go loud. Revels, I,ve owned 3 the F52, the salon1 and salon2 are both still in my basement and they don't fatigue. I would add Dynaudio contour60 to your list
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post #11833 of 16514 Old 04-19-2018, 05:03 PM
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drew1204, I had speakers that measured flat, Kef R105/3 +/- 2db 50-17000hz that were a real hassle to get quality sound from...
Hi Steven!

Tried to find measurements on the KEF R105/3 - do you have a reference / link?

KEF makes a good speaker, but their UniQ design suffers from IM distortion (which has been discussed here previously, and why it does not do as well as the Revels when shot out double blind).

If you have a source be curious to see it.
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post #11834 of 16514 Old 04-19-2018, 05:35 PM
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Hi John, thanks a lot for responding and answering all of my questions! How does the Salk Sound 8 with RAAL tweeters compare with something like the F208 or the Salon2 for home theater? Here is a measurement:

No problem.

The Salk measurement graph appears to be only an "on axis" measurement, while the measurement graphs I posted were "listening window" graphs. The listening window graphs also take into account off axis response as well as on axis (for reference, on axis means directly in front of the speaker, while off axis is off to the sides and above and below). The NRC / Harman research has shown that having flat on axis response is a good start, but only part of the story. The speakers that do best in listening tests also have very flat and accurate response off axis as well, as much of what we hear is from the reflections we get from side walls and the ceiling. The listening window graphs take that into account - here is the description:

Response curve is an average of five measurements: on-axis, 15 degrees left and right off-axis, 15 degrees up and down off-axis

Even there, that's only a partial picture. There is no reference posted for the Salk graph - was it measured right in front of the speaker, our out in the room? How and where was the measurement taken?

If interested in this stuff, you might read up on the Spinorama method of measuring speakers that Dr. Floyd Toole developed. It takes a fairly wide variety of factors into account - on and off axis frequency response, sound power in the room, the tendency of some speakers to "beam" at higher frequencies, etc. What's cool about the Spinorama measurement is that Harman researchers have demonstrated that it can be used to predict which speaker will win a double blind scientifically controlled listening test with 86% confidence. That's extremely high! Revel speakers are designed with this specific research in mind, and are engineered accordingly.

I will post two Spinorama graphs, one of a Revel F208 and one of a B&W model, with a Primer below that explains how to read it. (FYI, the info published on the Soundstage site is similar to what is shown on a Spinorama, and is based on Dr. Toole's earlier work - the Spinorama is an easier to read and more highly predictive measurement system. On Soundstage you have to look at all the measurements in total):

Revel F208:



B&W 683S2



HARMAN Spin-o-rama Explanation

On-axis Response - This represents the direct sound heard by a single listener sitting on the design axis of the loudspeaker. A flat frequency response is an absolute requirement for all electronic devices. Therefore, it is not surprising that loudspeakers with a flat on-axis frequency response have a higher probability of being preferred in double-blind listening tests.

Listening Window - The well-designed loudspeaker should deliver good sound to a group of listeners -- not just the person sitting on-axis. The listening window is the average frequency response measured for listeners sitting on and slightly off the reference axis of the loudspeaker. Loudspeakers that receive high sound quality ratings in double-blind listening tests tend to have listening windows with a flat frequency response.

First, or Early Reflections -- Most of the sound we hear is reflected in rooms. The second loudest sound (after the direct sound) is the first reflected sound produced from the loudspeaker. Therefore, it is paramount that the sounds radiated by the loudspeaker in the off-axis directions generate early reflections that sound good. The shape of this curve should not differ greatly from the on-axis response curve.

Sound Power Response -This is a measure of the total sound radiated by the loudspeaker without regard to the direction in which it is radiated. The shape should be smooth and slightly downward tilting.

Sound Power and First Reflection Directivity Indices - These directivity indices tell us how the directivity of the loudspeaker changes as a function of frequency. At low frequencies most loudspeakers radiate sound omni-directionally (DI = 0 dB), where wavelengths are long. In forward-firing, 2-way and 3-way loudspeakers, as wavelengths get shorter, frequencies get higher, and more of the sound is radiated towards the front. The goal is to have this trend develop smoothly and gradually.

There is nothing magical about certain kinds of tweeters, so IMO it's best to ignore marketing claims. What matters is how well it's integrated with the midrange driver, how flat and accurate it is on and off axis, etc.

For long time followers of this thread, sorry about the old information. However, sometimes there are new visitors to the thread who can benefit
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post #11835 of 16514 Old 04-19-2018, 07:04 PM
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Aw jeez, not the 683 S2 spin again!!!!
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post #11836 of 16514 Old 04-19-2018, 09:14 PM
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I'll find a new whipping boy
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post #11837 of 16514 Old 04-20-2018, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Hi Steven!

Tried to find measurements on the KEF R105/3 - do you have a reference / link?

KEF makes a good speaker, but their UniQ design suffers from IM distortion (which has been discussed here previously, and why it does not do as well as the Revels when shot out double blind).

If you have a source be curious to see it.
Floyd Toole talks about it (the 105/2 actually) at 28 min in:
..Which also answers the question why despite the flat on axis measurements, it performs -okay- but not great.
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post #11838 of 16514 Old 04-20-2018, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
Floyd Toole talks about it (the 105/2 actually) at 28 min in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM
..Which also answers the question why despite the flat on axis measurements, it performs -okay- but not great.
Any idea what the $1800 loudspeaker in Toole's presentation was?

Hilarious data on the types of listeners and on the ratings by the Consumer magazine! Thanks for posting, this was one of the most informative things I've seen on the subject of loudspeakers. I was aware of and understood most of it before watching, but that certainly reinforced and made my understanding deeper.
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post #11839 of 16514 Old 04-20-2018, 09:08 AM
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Any idea what the $1800 loudspeaker in Toole's presentation was?

Hilarious data on the types of listeners and on the ratings by the Consumer magazine! Thanks for posting, this was one of the most informative things I've seen on the subject of loudspeakers. I was aware of and understood most of it before watching, but that certainly reinforced and made my understanding deeper.

I think it was the Infinity IL60 which is out of production.
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post #11840 of 16514 Old 04-20-2018, 09:40 AM
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I am currently considering the following speakers:

Revel F208 pair R&L
Revel C208 center
Revel S206 side surrounds
Revel M105 rear surrounds

VS

JTR Speakers:

JTR 210RT - R&L
JTR 210RM - Center
JTR 8 side - Surrounds
JTR 8 rear - Surrounds

VS

Tekton Design (pretty ugly for a living room)

Double Impact SE - R&L
Double Impact - Oversize Center (7 tweeters)
Double Impact - Surrounds
Double Impact - Rear Surrounds

VS

Legacy Audio

Focus SE / XD - R&L
MARQUIS XD - Center
Studio HD - Side Surrounds
Studio HD - Rear Surrounds

VS

Revel Salon2's /
or the new F228Be

VS

Paradigm Persona series 7F or 5F

VS

Other suggestions?
These are all good speakers to go audition but ultimately you're going to have to audition some to narrow them down. I've heard good things about the JTR speakers but I wouldn't buy anything without hearing them, unless they have a trial period. In your price range I would check out the KEF reference line as well, they measure very well and utilize the same spinorama type measuring system that Revel uses.

I also keep hearing about this IM distortion people are talking about with KEF which really is misinformation. It only happens to the 2 way coaxial speakers for one so towers or 3 way bookshelves won't have the problem since the bass is handled with separate drivers. Even in a 2 way, it only happens running them full range (which no one does) and loud with bass heavy tracks. Run them with a crossover and you're fine. If you check measurements on soundstage.com you'll see all bookshelf speakers, including Revel, have much higher distortion below 100Hz so you really want to use a sub or 2 with any bookshelf speaker, or really any speaker for that matter.
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post #11841 of 16514 Old 04-20-2018, 09:55 AM
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I think it was the Infinity IL60 which is out of production.
I have a pair
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post #11842 of 16514 Old 04-20-2018, 10:10 AM
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IMO, auditioning speakers anywhere but in YOUR room isn't a fair test. The room's acoustic signature, and positioning of the speaker and the listener are so important that you won't be comparing apples to apples in different dealer showrooms. You need to evaluate them all in your own listening space. That means you'll need to make your purchases from places that allow returns and a full refund after a reasonable evaluation period. Keep in mind that no purchase has been made until the return period has expired, so you're not risking anything except return shipping fees, which is a small price to pay for ensuring you picked the right speaker that you'll be living with for (hopefully) many years. Most of your "narrowing down" can be done through online research, which should lead to no more than 2 or 3 speakers to be compared in-home. If you can compare them blind, even better.

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post #11843 of 16514 Old 04-20-2018, 10:46 AM
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I have a pair
It sounds like that was a good speaker.
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post #11844 of 16514 Old 04-20-2018, 10:55 AM
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It sounds like that was a good speaker.
Yup, many consider it the last good speaker Infinity made.
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post #11845 of 16514 Old 04-20-2018, 11:07 AM
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IMO, auditioning speakers anywhere but in YOUR room isn't a fair test. The room's acoustic signature, and positioning of the speaker and the listener are so important that you won't be comparing apples to apples in different dealer showrooms. You need to evaluate them all in your own listening space. That means you'll need to make your purchases from places that allow returns and a full refund after a reasonable evaluation period. Keep in mind that no purchase has been made until the return period has expired, so you're not risking anything except return shipping fees, which is a small price to pay for ensuring you picked the right speaker that you'll be living with for (hopefully) many years. Most of your "narrowing down" can be done through online research, which should lead to no more than 2 or 3 speakers to be compared in-home. If you can compare them blind, even better.
Agreed inprinciple for the most part, but as Dr. Toole discusses in the aforementioned (and posted) video, the relative speaker scores during the blind comparisons did not change in different rooms or in different placements. So a speaker that sounded good in one location might sound less good in a different location, but a speaker that sounded bad in the first location would also sound worse in the second location. The scores would essentially remain the same in relation to each other. For example, using a rating scale of 1 - 10:

Speaker A score, location 1: 8

Speaker A score, location 2: 6

Speaker B score, location 1: 5

Speaker B score, location 2: 3

It would have to be a incredibly unusual location where room boundary effects etc would interact in a harmonious way with a speaker that measured poorly.
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post #11846 of 16514 Old 04-20-2018, 11:16 AM
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Floyd Toole talks about it (the 105/2 actually) at 28 min in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM
..Which also answers the question why despite the flat on axis measurements, it performs -okay- but not great.
This video should be posted weekly
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post #11847 of 16514 Old 04-20-2018, 12:24 PM
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Yup, many consider it the last good speaker Infinity made.
I'll have to put that speaker on my list for a possible eBay purchase. I used to own the B&W 801 Matrix Series II. Now I wish I hadn't sold them.
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post #11848 of 16514 Old 04-20-2018, 12:32 PM
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My son owned the complete IL series for a 5.1 system and they did sound good. I can vouch for that.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #11849 of 16514 Old 04-20-2018, 03:24 PM
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Agreed inprinciple for the most part, but as Dr. Toole discusses in the aforementioned (and posted) video, the relative speaker scores during the blind comparisons did not change in different rooms or in different placements. So a speaker that sounded good in one location might sound less good in a different location, but a speaker that sounded bad in the first location would also sound worse in the second location. The scores would essentially remain the same in relation to each other. For example, using a rating scale of 1 - 10:

Speaker A score, location 1: 8

Speaker A score, location 2: 6

Speaker B score, location 1: 5

Speaker B score, location 2: 3

It would have to be a incredibly unusual location where room boundary effects etc would interact in a harmonious way with a speaker that measured poorly.
Quite true, though that really applies when comparing different speakers in the same rooms and in the same locations. In his case I would assume that won't be feasible unless he brings them all home.

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post #11850 of 16514 Old 04-20-2018, 03:51 PM
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I'll have to put that speaker on my list for a possible eBay purchase. I used to own the B&W 801 Matrix Series II. Now I wish I hadn't sold them.
I had B&W 801F's for many years. Sold them for Dunlavy SC-V's. Sold those for Revel F208's. I'm happiest with the Revels.
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