Revel Owners Thread - Page 398 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11911 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 07:11 AM
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What where the other speakers if you don't mind me asking
ME Geithain 801k and 933k. The goal of the test was finding out if monitors optimised for certain listening distances (MEG) work better in those scenarios vs one that simply measures well (JBL)

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post #11912 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
The $300 ELAC bookies compared well to the Revel 228 floorstander or are you saying it was in same size room and sounded good?
I went into that room with the $300 ELACs and I thought they sounded very nice for inexpensive book shelf speakers. But the room that paired the Revel F228 with Mark Levinson 585 integrated amp sounded just awesome to me, at least on the content they played. I really liked the simplicity of the system, in that all it included was a streaming box, the 585, and the F228s. That room has me seriously looking at the 585 as an upgrade in my amplification.

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The issue with the revels IMO were that they're were far too close to the front wall, hence I didn't hear all that much soundstaging happening, where the elacs were really really good. In a larger room I would expect the advantage to go to the revel IF set up properly.
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post #11913 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 12:08 PM
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Actually, quite a few, as were seen at AXPONA recently. There are three pages of AVS blogs on AXPONA, but check out in particular the $295,000 Von Schweikert speakers near the bottom of this page. The big Wilson rooms were incredible as well. Now, I'm not talking measurements. I'm talking about the realistic recreation of an actual acoustic event. BTW, I thought and have written here on AVS that the new Revel F228Be sounded incredible at AXPONA, so I am not against Revel at all, but I have to be realistic.

https://www.avsforum.com/axpona-2018-...-recap-part-3/

You are kidding about attaching any value to audio show reviews aren't you? A best these reviews provide entertainment value.

Sighted, controlled listening tests have been shown to be unreliable. Sighted listening, in a noisy venue, at unknown levels, in a total uncontrolled environment, where prices are known, is laughable; or sad. Referencing the results of listening tests at audio shows is pure nonsense.
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post #11914 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 12:36 PM
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You are kidding about attaching any value to audio show reviews aren't you? A best these reviews provide entertainment value.

Sighted, controlled listening tests have been shown to be unreliable. Sighted listening, in a noisy venue, at unknown levels, in a total uncontrolled environment, where prices are known, is laughable; or sad. Referencing the results of listening tests at audio shows is pure nonsense.
I guess you missed that I said I attended AXPONA and gave my own impressions of the systems I heard there. I don't see how a speaker one third the size of another speaker that also "measures well" can or should be expected to produce the same sense of scale and realism, but that's just me.

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post #11915 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 12:38 PM
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John, I agree the M106 has better looking spins than the r100 but if you listened back and forth you'd hear there is something natural sounding about a coaxial driver. I'm not exactly sure what it is, it could be the point source qualities or the time alignment of the coaxial driver, but there is something natural about everything coming from 1 point, probably since that's more accurate of real life sounds. Most people don't even realize it but it's very obvious if you A/B back and forth.

Also, speaking of measurements, most people seem to ignore vertical off-axis response and there isn't much research on the subject. All I could find in Toole's latest Sound Reproduction book is a small study that stated that horizontal reflections were perceived as making the music more spacious and open while vertical reflections were perceived negatively as a timbre change. Considering most speakers have a large suckout due to the driver spacing in the vertical direction, I would expect this conclusion but coaxial drivers have an even response in all directions so it seems to me that it would create the same spaciousness from vertical reflections as well. I try to equate speaker design philosophy with real life music production, which consists of sounds coming from a point source for the most part and reflections in all directions being close to the on axis sound, both of which the coaxial design excels at. I fully agree that there are limitations to the design as well, there are tradeoffs to any design.

I wasn't meaning to derail the thread too much but what I'm really trying to say is people should still audition different brands and not just assume Revel has done your homework for you, especially when you have no idea what speakers they're actually comparing in the double blinds. I absolutely think Revel should be included in any audition since I feel they represent great values in all of their price points, but you still have to audition and the more speakers the better.
I appreciate the civil discussion

And I would agree with the last part of your post, generally speaking. My only caveats:

Use a wide range of listening material. Otherwise you don't know if any issues you are hearing are in the recording or are in the speaker.

Listen blind, so there is no way to know which speaker is playing at any given time. Have someone else switch speakers and keep track of your scores.

Use the same material for evaluation.

Match speaker locations.

The above is not directed at you so much, but as general rules for comparing speakers. Listening to speakers in hotel rooms under wildly variable conditions is wildly unreliable way of evaluating relative sound quality. I just see so many people draw conclusions on speaker sound when they haven't leveled the playing field. Recording quality also varies wildly, so that just throws another big monkey wrench into comparative listening.

When going by measurements, one can verify that they are hearing simply what is in the recording, rather than any colorations that the speaker is adding.

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post #11916 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 12:45 PM
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You are kidding about attaching any value to audio show reviews aren't you? A best these reviews provide entertainment value.

Sighted, controlled listening tests have been shown to be unreliable. Sighted listening, in a noisy venue, at unknown levels, in a total uncontrolled environment, where prices are known, is laughable; or sad. Referencing the results of listening tests at audio shows is pure nonsense.

Well, they look nice.


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post #11917 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 12:46 PM
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Wow, was going to post a bunch more but saw that Gooddoc, TimVG, CruelInventions and bigguyca have already made my points for me

Thanks all!

And even though there has been some controversy here, discussion has remained civil. Yay for all of us!

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post #11918 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 12:48 PM
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I guess you missed that I said I attended AXPONA and gave my own impressions of the systems I heard there. I don't see how a speaker one third the size of another speaker that also "measures well" can or should be expected to produce the same sense of scale and realism, but that's just me.
I can never seem to find any measurements of those high end speakers.
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post #11919 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 12:55 PM
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Hey Fellas!

There is a pair of Salon2's on audiogon listed for $7,999 from a shop in Chicago.

Lowest price I have seen before those was $9K.

Don't know anything about the seller and I have no affiliation.
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post #11920 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 12:55 PM
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I can never seem to find any measurements of those high end speakers.
It's sort of like the price, if you have to ask...they are not for you.


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post #11921 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 12:56 PM
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I can never seem to find any measurements of those high end speakers.
Okay, for those here who can't seem to handle the idea that there might be, somewhere in the world, a speaker that has "better overall sound quality" than the Salon 2, what if Revel themselves release an even larger Super Salon 3(or some other model name), that doesn't measure any better than the Salon 2? Would you reject it out of hand? Or would you give it a subjective listen, so as to see if you enjoy it more?

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post #11922 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 12:59 PM
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Hey Fellas!

There is a pair of Salon2's on audiogon listed for $7,999 from a shop in Chicago.

Lowest price I have seen before those was $9K.

Don't know anything about the seller and I have no affiliation.
Now, that is tempting! They have some scratches and no grills or originals packaging, but still a serious bargain. I wonder how much a set of grills from Revel would run?

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post #11923 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 01:00 PM
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Now, that is tempting! They have some scratches and no grills or originals packaging, but still a serious bargain. I wonder how much a set of grills from Revel would run?
I'd call Revel support about the grills and see if you can order packaging.


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post #11924 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 01:09 PM
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Okay, for those here who can't seem to handle the idea that there might be, somewhere in the world, a speaker that has "better overall sound quality" than the Salon 2, what if Revel themselves release an even larger Super Salon 3(or some other model name), that doesn't measure any better than the Salon 2? Would you reject it out of hand? Or would you give it a subjective listen, so as to see if you enjoy it more?
I think I kind of understand what you are getting at - that a pair of huge speakers has a way of filling a room in a very impressive way, just like a live orchestra will fill a room in a more impressive way than just a pair of speakers. But I would argue that the way to better reproduce that huge sound is by using more speakers in an immersive setup that is much better able to emulate the sound field you would hear in the actual recording venue (say, a concert hall, where most of what you hear is the sound of reflections in the space). All a huge speaker system will do is sound really big in the room it's placed in, rather than give you an accurate reproduction of the original venue.

But again, I think I do understand what you are getting at. When we did our Salon2 vs. M2 shootout, I had to admit that during certain selections the M2s just sounded "bigger" than the Salon2s.

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post #11925 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 01:15 PM
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I think I kind of understand what you are getting at - that a pair of huge speakers has a way of filling a room in a very impressive way, just like a live orchestra will fill a room in a more impressive way than just a pair of speakers. But I would argue that the way to better reproduce that huge sound is by using more speakers in an immersive setup that is much better able to emulate the sound field you would hear in the actual recording venue (say, a concert hall, where most of what you hear is the sound of reflections in the space). All a huge speaker system will do is sound really big in the room it's placed in, rather than give you an accurate reproduction of the original venue.

But again, I think I do understand what you are getting at. When we did our Salon2 vs. M2 shootout, I had to admit that during certain selections the M2s just sounded "bigger" than the Salon2s.
Well, are we talking about two channel music? I've never been much of a fan of processing high quality two channel music. For multi-channel music, such as perhaps SACD and DVD-Audio, I would agree.

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post #11926 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 01:47 PM
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Well, are we talking about two channel music? I've never been much of a fan of processing high quality two channel music. For multi-channel music, such as perhaps SACD and DVD-Audio, I would agree.
All depends on how well it's done. Lexicon's Logic7 and Anthem's Music Logic work quite well. Some systems way overdo it, admitted.

And a big soundstage can also work against certain types of music - witness some systems were a vocalist sounds 12 foot wide and 8 foot tall. So it depends on the scale of the music as well.

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post #11927 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 02:15 PM
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I can never seem to find any measurements of those high end speakers.
High End 2017: Von Schweikert Audio goes ultra

I want to see measurements for those $700K cables. That's no ordinary snake oil, that's anaconda oil.
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post #11928 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 02:31 PM
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All depends on how well it's done. Lexicon's Logic7 and Anthem's Music Logic work quite well. Some systems way overdo it, admitted.

And a big soundstage can also work against certain types of music - witness some systems were a vocalist sounds 12 foot wide and 8 foot tall. So it depends on the scale of the music as well.
That doesn't have to be. One can have a massive life-like soundstage and have appropriately scaled/sized life-like objects within that soundstage. This ..... is my BFD.

If you're ever in the neighborhood, give me a shout and stop on by and I'll be happy to show.
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post #11929 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 04:20 PM
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Hey Fellas!

There is a pair of Salon2's on audiogon listed for $7,999 from a shop in Chicago.

Lowest price I have seen before those was $9K.

Don't know anything about the seller and I have no affiliation.
Those aren't Revel tweeters! Look at them closely!

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post #11930 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 04:43 PM
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Okay, for those here who can't seem to handle the idea that there might be, somewhere in the world, a speaker that has "better overall sound quality" than the Salon 2, what if Revel themselves release an even larger Super Salon 3(or some other model name), that doesn't measure any better than the Salon 2? Would you reject it out of hand? Or would you give it a subjective listen, so as to see if you enjoy it more?
I own a pair of Salon2's and freely admit i've heard other less expensive speakers sound better with some material, it's also not as easy getting large speakers to image as good as stand mounts. I had a pair of VA beethovens circa 2003 that I would put up against anything out there when reproducing small ensemble jazz, but switch over to rock and they couldn't cut it. The revel salon1 and salon2 both measure nearly flat in room but side by side they clearly sound different and you are on a revel forum so what do you expect? Go to the B&W forum and ask them about their flagship model.

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post #11931 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 05:56 PM
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Those aren't Revel tweeters! Look at them closely!
They are Revel Tweeter but without the two guard wires. Did the early Salon2's have those?


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post #11932 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 06:01 PM
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Actually, quite a few, as were seen at AXPONA recently. There are three pages of AVS blogs on AXPONA, but check out in particular the $295,000 Von Schweikert speakers near the bottom of this page. The big Wilson rooms were incredible as well. Now, I'm not talking measurements. I'm talking about the realistic recreation of an actual acoustic event. BTW, I thought and have written here on AVS that the new Revel F228Be sounded incredible at AXPONA, so I am not against Revel at all, but I have to be realistic.

https://www.avsforum.com/axpona-2018-...-recap-part-3/
For what it's worth I'd take the F228bes over the big Wilsons every day of the week (assuming I couldn't immediately sell the big Wilsons, buy the Revels, and keep the difference). Maybe the room was just set up poorly when I demoed them, but overall I thought the smallest Wilsons (the Sabrinas) sounded the best of all of them, but I'd still probably opt for the F228bes.

Now the Von Schweikerts, Legacy Valor, or big MBLs, that's another story, but I'd really need a room much larger than any I have to truly appreciate them.

For me it's impossible to completely eliminate the price of a product from my mind when I'm listening to it, and that probably effects my reactions to a degree. I hold ultra-expensive speakers to a higher standard than more affordable ones. Even so, I could count on one hand the number of speakers at any price point at AXPONA that I thought sounded better than the Revels, and for $10,000 (or $4,000 for the bookshelves) I'm not sure anything came close (I did really love the Salk Song3As, the Aurum Cantus Towers, the Raidho XT-1s, and some others, but none of them were demoed at anywhere near the same SPL levels as the Revels when I visited the Revel room, and I didn't get a chance to hear the same variety of content, so I'm not sure if they'd hold their composure playing Rammstein at reference levels then turn on a dime and expose all of the detail in an orchestral recording, and while the XT-1s threw much bigger sound and more bass than they should've for their size, they're twice the price of the M126bes and they don't dig as deep).

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Those aren't Revel tweeters! Look at them closely!
I believe they're the Revel tweeters, the color looks right for beryllium, but it looks like the previous owner removed the two wires that cross in front of the tweeter from the factory. I'm not sure if those are there for an acoustic reason or just to keep people from poking it and damaging it though.

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I own a pair of Salon2's and freely admit i've heard other less expensive speakers sound better with some material, it's also not as easy getting large speakers to image as good as stand mounts. I had a pair of VA beethovens circa 2003 that I would put up against anything out there when reproducing small ensemble jazz, but switch over to rock and they couldn't cut it. The revel salon1 and salon2 both measure nearly flat in room but side by side they clearly sound different and you are on a revel forum so what do you expect? Go to the B&W forum and ask them about their flagship model.
That's a good point regarding imaging and soundstage, and it's something I've become a bit critical about with my home 2-channel system since listening to some of the rooms at the show. I have great horizontal soundstage and imaging, OK vertical, but I'm just not getting the depth of sound stage that I heard in some of the demo rooms. I'm not sure if my room is too small for my Intermezzos, if I'd get better sound stage pulling them more from the wall (even if that might put me a bit too close to them) or if I'd get a deeper sound stage with some room treatments. I may have to experiment with moving them more forward and then re-running my Dirac calibration to see if that helps. They're heavy as frack though, and moving them is a PITA.

Plus, since hearing those M126bes I'm really tempted, though then I'd have to find something to do with the Intermezzos, I suppose I could put them in place of my Interlude IL40s as my front HT mains, but then I'd have to find a place for the Interludes, maybe rear surrounds? Plus I set up all of my gear for 2-channel since the Intermezzos have built-in subs, I'd have to get a new preamp with bass management and get a subwoofer if I went with the M126bes, so an affordable speaker upgrade suddenly becomes a much pricier full-system re-jigger.

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post #11933 of 16222 Old 04-26-2018, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by steven59 View Post
Those aren't Revel tweeters! Look at them closely!
It looks more like the waveguide got dented into the tweeter, one of them has a mark across the middle.
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post #11934 of 16222 Old 04-27-2018, 08:37 AM
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I know we pretty much put this to bed but I didn't realize REW can measure IMD distortion through the RTA analyzer and tone generator, I'm still amazed at what it can do for free software.(Even though I think people should donate to fund further development) Anyway, I tried it out a few ways, I'm sure it's not the correct way of doing it but I tried to do a few worst case scenarios in my setup with Q150 speakers. I used my crossover frequency of 110 as my bass tone since that will be it's worst case and 2500Hz as my high frequency, this is the crossover frequency of the main and tweeter, I figure IMD distortion could happen in either the midwoofer or tweeter at that frequency and is probably worst case. The 2nd pic is an 80Hz tone with an 80Hz crossover.





I had my volume on my receiver set to 65 for these, 45 on music is 75-80Db so this is much louder than I ever have it and I only got up to about 4% IMD distortion. So in my opinion it's not really worth worrying about IMD distortion in KEF or any speakers as long as you don't listen at levels that cause permanent hearing damage and are crossing over to a sub.
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post #11935 of 16222 Old 04-27-2018, 09:59 AM
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I'm finishing a basement space to serve as a dedicated 4-channel music room. The room is about 3 weeks from completion and I need to decide soon on speakers. Revel is my brand of choice. Since 4 channels means I'll be shelling out for 2 pair, it makes me quite price sensitive, and the budget has to stay reasonable. With that in mind, I'm considering the following options:

1. $7,000 - 2 pair of F206
2. $6,000 - 1 pair of F206 (front), 1 pair of M106 (rear. Price includes matching Revel stands)
3. $5,000 - 2 pair M106 (price includes matching Revel stands)
4. $3,200 - 2 pair of Concerta2 F35

Option 4 is relatively cheap, and the F35 has higher sensitivity than the others, but I don't know if it will matter to me. Option 1 is as expensive as I will go, and I'm dubious of the benefit over the M106 in this situation since a pair of subwoofers will make bass extension mostly irrelevant. Option 2 might make sense since most surround info even in multichannel music isn't as active as in the fronts anyway, so saving some dough on the rears could be shrewd. Then again, I've always wanted to have a system where all the speakers are identical and option 2 violates that principle. Will I care in the long run? I dunno. Also, I've always had a preference for smaller speakers, so option 3 has that attraction. But the F35 is probably an exceptional value, and its sound may surprise me. But it's a budget speaker and designed around the assumption it would be powered by AVR amps, which doesn't really fit my goal of this being a higher-end rig. I'd hate to go cheap and later regret it. I could also substitute the M105 for the M106 in any scenario, though I'm concerned about limited dynamics. But 2/3 of my listening is classical and acoustic jazz, which I don't play at very high volume. A string quartet starts to sound slightly less convincing as you advance beyond 100 dB or so. Then again, I do crank up Pink Floyd or The Who from time to time.

All of the above options would be subwoofer'd at an appropriate x-over point. The room is 23' x 14' x 8' and quite reflective.

What would YOU do?

filmnut

Last edited by filmnut; 04-27-2018 at 10:05 AM.
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post #11936 of 16222 Old 04-27-2018, 10:06 AM
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High End 2017: Von Schweikert Audio goes ultra

I want to see measurements for those $700K cables. That's no ordinary snake oil, that's anaconda oil.
Can I steal that line? LOL!
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post #11937 of 16222 Old 04-27-2018, 10:15 AM
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I'm finishing a basement space to serve as a dedicated 4-channel music room. The room is about 3 weeks from completion and I need to decide soon on speakers. Revel is my brand of choice. Since 4 channels means I'll be shelling out for 2 pair, it makes me quite price sensitive, and the budget has to stay reasonable. With that in mind, I'm considering the following options:

1. $7,000 - 2 pair of F206
2. $6,000 - 1 pair of F206 (front), 1 pair of M106 (rear. Price includes matching Revel stands)
3. $5,000 - 2 pair M106 (price includes matching Revel stands)
4. $3,200 - 2 pair of Concerta2 F35

Option 4 is relatively cheap, and the F35 has higher sensitivity than the others, but I don't know if it will matter to me. Option 1 is as expensive as I will go, and I'm dubious of the benefit over the M106 in this situation since a pair of subwoofers will make bass extension mostly irrelevant. Option 2 might make sense since most surround info even in multichannel music isn't as active as in the fronts anyway, so saving some dough on the rears could be shrewd. Then again, I've always wanted to have a system where all the speakers are identical and option 2 violates that principle. Will I care in the long run? I dunno. Also, I've always had a preference for smaller speakers, so option 3 has that attraction. But the F35 is probably an exceptional value, and its sound may surprise me. But it's a budget speaker and designed around the assumption it would be powered by AVR amps, which doesn't really fit my goal of this being a higher-end rig. I'd hate to go cheap and later regret it. I could also substitute the M105 for the M106 in any scenario, though I'm concerned about limited dynamics. But 2/3 of my listening is classical and acoustic jazz, which I don't play at very high volume. A string quartet starts to sound slightly less convincing as you advance beyond 100 dB or so. Then again, I do crank up Pink Floyd or The Who from time to time.

All of the above options would be subwoofer'd at an appropriate x-over point. The room is 23' x 14' x 8' and quite reflective.

What would YOU do?
Probably #2

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post #11938 of 16222 Old 04-27-2018, 10:15 AM
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What would YOU do?
You can find used F208's for less than new F206's.

For four channel music, I'd have four F208's unless you are going to have subs.

My system is also used for 5 channel surround. I'm using F208's for L/R front and will be getting a C208 for center and F206's for L/R rear surround. I can't use subs for loud low frequency material because it bothers my wife and our two dogs.
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post #11939 of 16222 Old 04-27-2018, 10:23 AM
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Hey filmnut, might consider some acoustic art panels and cut down on all the reflection. Your Revels will be happy and sing to you.
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post #11940 of 16222 Old 04-27-2018, 12:53 PM
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Hi Steven!



Tried to find measurements on the KEF R105/3 - do you have a reference / link?



KEF makes a good speaker, but their UniQ design suffers from IM distortion (which has been discussed here previously, and why it does not do as well as the Revels when shot out double blind).



If you have a source be curious to see it.


Curious—do you know for a fact that KEF speakers have been beaten in double blind tests at Harman? If so, which specific models?



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