Revel Owners Thread - Page 406 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12151 of 15575 Old 05-06-2018, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
Actually it looks like most of the Revel subs are available in white. I have Rythmik so did not check the Revel website closely.

As for the price of the Salon2's, or any flagship anything, the tiny details that may or may not be audible to you generally add a lot to the cost. Then factor in smaller sales volume and expecting a linear relationship in price/performance is unlikely IME. This is true in most things; at some point you are paying for those details and perhaps finish and prestige. I'll settle with them beating speakers many times their cost, and as for them being 5x the sound of the F208s; why, no, they are 10x better, of course!

As an aside, or maybe not, I think the prices of the high-end stuff are totally out of control. You can spend well into six figures on any individual component in your system these days.
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post #12152 of 15575 Old 05-06-2018, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Actually it looks like most of the Revel subs are available in white. I have Rythmik so did not check the Revel website closely.
And for some of us, we cover the beautiful High-gloss finishes with black velvet to avoid reflection off our StudioTeks.
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post #12153 of 15575 Old 05-06-2018, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post
John,

I'm a Revel fan as my signature indicates, but I'm not going to convince myself that Be's may be twice as good considering the numbers ($10K vs $5K). I've listened to the Ultimate Salon2 and they sounded amazing. After hooking up my Performa3 F208s I didn't hear amazing, but I did hear damn good which brought a smile to my face. While the Be's measure marginally better IMO; what is measured is not always audible. I don't doubt that the Be's are going to sound quite good, but I doubt twice as good based on the price and measurables. Just my .$02. What would point a person to purchase the Be's over the Performa3s? It looks like Revel is filling a pricing void between the Perfmorma3 and Studio2.

Thanks,
Will
If you expect product X costing twice as much than product Y to sound twice as better, then you are not familiar with the law of diminishing returns. The Revel f208 is really good, and if the f228Be I have in order is 10% better than my f208, I would be happy
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post #12154 of 15575 Old 05-06-2018, 05:07 PM
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I would guess 5k speakers at 90%, 10k 95%, 20k 98%

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post #12155 of 15575 Old 05-06-2018, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by thyname View Post
If you expect product X costing twice as much than product Y to sound twice as better, then you are not familiar with the law of diminishing returns. The Revel f208 is really good, and if the f228Be I have in order is 10% better than my f208, I would be happy
One man's 10% is another man's "worth it".
I'm gonna guess that you'll forget about percentages and go with the qualitative.
At this level it's the small things that matter which makes them a bring a smile to your face sound.
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post #12156 of 15575 Old 05-06-2018, 05:24 PM
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One man's 10% is another man's "worth it".
I'm gonna guess that you'll forget about percentages and go with the qualitative.
At this level it's the small things that matter which makes them a bring a smile to your face sound.
It does not sound like you are disagreeing much with me
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post #12157 of 15575 Old 05-06-2018, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
Have ever considered placing the speakers on the long wall?
Well, actually no. What did you have in mind? Not sure exactly what you're suggesting as there's a fireplace in the middle of that wall.

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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post #12158 of 15575 Old 05-06-2018, 06:20 PM
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It does not sound like you are disagreeing much with me
I'm not disagreeing with you in any way, shape or form.
Exactly the opposite.
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post #12159 of 15575 Old 05-06-2018, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
Well, actually no. What did you have in mind? Not sure exactly what you're suggesting as there's a fireplace in the middle of that wall.
Don't know all of the traffic patterns in the room and don't know what the room looks like from the current speaker's POV.
Just noticed that the wall your speakers are on have a corner on the left side and door on the right.
I'm not saying that the long wall will work any better but it's always good to give alternate setups a try.

Like I said above, I have no idea if it's workable or not.

 
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post #12160 of 15575 Old 05-06-2018, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
Yep that’s what I ordered in gloss white...2 of them. I was hoping some better performance subs around the same price like SVS types would come in gloss white. Hopefully these will be ok and do good in the big room until I move this system into the bedroom and get a better set up.

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post #12161 of 15575 Old 05-06-2018, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by thyname View Post
If you expect product X costing twice as much than product Y to sound twice as better, then you are not familiar with the law of diminishing returns. The Revel f208 is really good, and if the f228Be I have in order is 10% better than my f208, I would be happy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
One man's 10% is another man's "worth it".
I'm gonna guess that you'll forget about percentages and go with the qualitative.
At this level it's the small things that matter which makes them a bring a smile to your face sound.
Well stated gents. It certainly gets to where the small things are what you are paying for, and their worth is defined by the joy that is derived there from.

I thought long and hard before I laid down my coins. In the end, I could not resist the siren’s call. Many an hour has been delightedly spent in the sweet spot of these details, and while there’s a Harley that wasn’t purchased because of it, I’m having too much fun for regrets.

Most of us are here because we love music and crave the thrill of superb sound in our homes. Revel goes a long way toward enabling us to obtain it affordably. Enjoy what you can afford, and have faith that you can always upgrade later if circumstances allow. In the mean time, turn it up - and tip one back!
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post #12162 of 15575 Old 05-06-2018, 07:22 PM
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Yep that’s what I ordered in gloss white...2 of them. I was hoping some better performance subs around the same price like SVS types would come in gloss white. Hopefully these will be ok and do good in the big room until I move this system into the bedroom and get a better set up.
I'm curious how they'll sound, they don't look great from the spec sheet (especially extension when it comes to deep bass) but room gain and having two of them should help.

@John Schuermann had mentioned upthread that he was going to talk to the Revel guys about how they test subwoofers (or it might have been in the Synthesis/Revel home theater thread) and I may have missed the response or he may still be waiting for the info. For as great as Revel speakers are, their subs do seem to be lacking some on paper.

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post #12163 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
Don't know all of the traffic patterns in the room and don't know what the room looks like from the current speaker's POV.
Just noticed that the wall your speakers are on have a corner on the left side and door on the right.
I'm not saying that the long wall will work any better but it's always good to give alternate setups a try.

Like I said above, I have no idea if it's workable or not.
Fair enough, and yes, thinking about alternatives is almost always useful.

At one time, the room was flipped 180 degrees with the mains / center on the end with the sliders. That was just OK sound-wise and not very good for TV viewing. Too much light comes in those sliders.

Using the short wall where the kitchen would be on the right presents a lot of arrangement and audio balance issues. I don't see how that could work well.

Some people might use a long wall with a fireplace by placing a TV over the hearth, usually with a small sound bar or just the TV speakers. I haven't heard a setup like that that sounds as good as my current arrangement. Not sure what I'd do with the C208 in such a configuration as that fireplace is actually used.

The current arrangement isn't perfect either. That passageway by the right channel becomes useless or a trip hazard for stepping over speaker wire. I need to do something about that. On the video side, there's a lot of glare at the mlp unless the blackout curtains are closed. Sound-wise, it's pretty good. It's a solution with compromises that we're making work. So far.

Of course, this would be a whole lot easier with a dedicated room. Alas, that is not in our future.

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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post #12164 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 06:13 AM
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You could route the speaker wires up and around the opening or add a cable runner on the floor as part of the threshold, e.g. https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...l_7yfapklxtd_e

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post #12165 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 06:36 AM
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I worked in several recording control rooms that had the monitors on the long wall. They all had problems with uneven bass. I rotated them 90 degrees (so the speakers were on short wall firing down the long wall) and it solved the problem. I think Bill's room is set up about as well as possible. When he moves the sub around to find the optimum location and dials in ARC, hopefully it will yield smooth bass response. Might need to add another sub....
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post #12166 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
You could route the speaker wires up and around the opening or add a cable runner on the floor as part of the threshold, e.g. https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...l_7yfapklxtd_e
Nice idea! Thanks!

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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post #12167 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 10:38 AM
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The sub crawl and possibly a second sub are on the to-do list. This may not have a high enough SAF to do in 2018 but there's always next year.

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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post #12168 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Lsdec2 View Post
I’m having a hard time justifying the F228Be that’s double the price of my F208. I heard it, it sounds better than the F208 but I’m really surprised that someone at Revel thought that this was an ok approach to fill the gap between the F208 and the Studio2.

If they would have added another woofer - remember they initially had the F308 on the model list before they scrapped it, citing it would have cannibalized the studio2 sales.

F308Be at $10k would be something that’d be a lot more enticing than the F228Be. A true full range speaker.

Like my bud who just took delivery of a used pair of Salon2s...I may go this route over the F228Be to better my sound system.
Some thoughts:

Most people pair with a subwoofer or two, so I don't think there would be much call for a full range F308, just based on experience the last three years with customers and the back and forth on this Forum. The F208 has pretty substantial bass response and "thump" as it is. Any discussion of an F308 must have been before my time...

Something else to keep in mind - the entire Ultima2 lineup is headed for a 20% price increase sometime in the next month or two, all due to skyrocketing manufacturing costs. For someone wanting some the refinement of the Ultima2 series without making that jump, the F228Be should actually fit in nicely. If pre-sales are any indication, the thinking seems to be pretty solid.

Understand the whole "is it worth twice the price" thing, though. It's never a clear-cut thing - does the Salon2 sound 4 1/2 times better than the F208, for example? Tough call. Same for the F36 vs. the F208 - is the F208 worth 2 1/2 times the price?

Last comment - one of the reasons the Salon2 is relatively inefficient and difficult to drive properly was due to the requirement that it be a true full range speaker.

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post #12169 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post
It’s nice to have another option size and weight wise before getting to the Studio and Salon. Double the price is rough though. Curious how the charts look between the Be and Performa3. I’m really looking for more F206 size and use a sub since I have a medium sized room. Right now I have Def Tech BP7000SC, Sonus Faber Toy Tower, and now trying to decide on a Revel speaker, but waiting to see what becomes of the Be line before listening in store. Perhaps a M126 will work but really want a F226 to check out before deciding.
Seems pretty likely that there will be an F226Be.
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post #12170 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Aliens View Post
My question is, what is your priority for that room? It looks like a family/living/TV room. If living/family, then you are pretty much stuck because you need the seating. If TV, then remove the two chairs and table to the right, that should really open things up. By removing the chairs, or at least the one closest to the speaker, you could do a first reflection point for the right speaker. Unless that CD/DVD rack is used everyday, that could go. The less clutter the better. Did you do the "crawl" for sub location? It looks almost hidden where it is. Maybe move it in front of the outlet to the right so that it's less obstructed? You may find the sub would perform best where the table is, or in the back of the room, but you won't know until you do the "crawl". It looks like you are about 4-5 feet further away from the TV for maximum viewing enjoyment, but you may have no other choice because of the hearth. I don't see a problem with the sofa, ottoman, or end table. Just my amateurish thoughts.
Actually the CD / DVD rack is acting as a bit of a diffuser, and the chair on the right is probably both reflective and absorptive, depending on the frequency.

I believe Dr. Toole talks a bit about using normal room furnishings as acoustic treatments in his book - @Bill-99 , it might be worth looking at those sections. If you look at the pictures of Dr. Toole's own room, you can see very little in the way of traditional acoustic treatments.

Main thing you want to avoid is bare walls everywhere.
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post #12171 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
Room priority is family room, so yeah, that definitely constrains options. I'm still planning to try moving that chair closest to the right channel to assess impact. I may be able to make that happen. As for the media rack, the longer term plan is for it to live in another part of the house. That gives some hope of maybe a little bit of first reflection treatment though when last checked one wall location was on the fireplace brick. Treating that will never fly.

I have not done the sub crawl thought it's on my to do list, mostly out of curiosity as my placement options are limited. But who knows? Until I do the crawl I don't really have a hierarchy of best to worst locations for the sub.
Yes, moving the chair closest to the right channel would probably make the most impact!

With treatments, best case is to have the room symmetrical. With your room, like mine, that appears just about impossible. It's all about living with compromises.

One nice thing about Revel is that you know that any reflections in the room will be congruent with direct sound, so it's usually a matter of spaciousness (no treatments) vs. pinpoint imaging (treatments). When the room is non-symmetrical you end up with a somewhat uneven combination of both - which of course is one of those dreaded compromises. So, be sure to read Dr. Toole's material how we are equipped to "listening through a room," which should help you not to worry about it.
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post #12172 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post
John,

I'm a Revel fan as my signature indicates, but I'm not going to convince myself that Be's may be twice as good considering the numbers ($10K vs $5K). I've listened to the Ultimate Salon2 and they sounded amazing. After hooking up my Performa3 F208s I didn't hear amazing, but I did hear damn good which brought a smile to my face. While the Be's measure marginally better IMO; what is measured is not always audible. I don't doubt that the Be's are going to sound quite good, but I doubt twice as good based on the price and measurables. Just my .$02. What would point a person to purchase the Be's over the Performa3s? It looks like Revel is filling a pricing void between the Perfmorma3 and Studio2.

Thanks,
Will
My answer here might be helpful:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post56153956

Many people also use the car analogy - is a Lamborghini worth three times the price of a Honda?

A couple of Kevin Voecks' comments about differences in refinement, one excellence is hit in the objective measurements (which goes a long way to explaining why you hear a difference between "amazing" and "damn good" ):

Because we actually have come up with measurements based on listening tests, it's a full circle. We don't do measurements because we have cool equipment to do it, we do them only because we found an audible characteristic that will differentiate two speakers or one that's more refined.

So how do we measure that? How do we quantify that so that we can really engineer the speakers to perform better in that regard. So there's extremely good correlation between the measurements that we do, the set of measurements, and the sound quality. Looking at a set of measurements, if they're not good, we can say absolutely for sure that the speaker will not excel in listening tests. The converse is not completely true. Looking at a good set of measurements we could say this is a good speaker, but the difference between a really good and really great speaker is still beyond our ability to absolutely predictably measure. So it's that last level that we spend a lot of time on because it's not as direct a path.


Here are some other comments in regard to Performa3 vs. Ultima2:

As you know, many people argue about double-blind tests. Most of their arguments are without merit, but not all. One of the most important is that in my opinion and observation, it does indeed take extended listening sessions to hear the more subtle differences. The important thing is that these more subtle differences can indeed become more evident over time. Having listened to the Performa3 series and Ultima2 series both for very long periods of time, the difference at high frequencies especially is dramatic. The Ultima2 tweeter is so much "cleaner," with vastly lower distortion (even though the Performa3 distortion is far below most speakers) that it is much easier to listen to without fatigue. Combined with the advantages of low diffraction, it is the high frequency range that causes the Ultima2 series to win in long-term listening tests. Getting back to the blind testing, that kind of difference is best heard with longer sessions. There must be breaks between long sessions, as fatigue sets in, but that is where differences that audiophiles live for become apparent.
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post #12173 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mdrums View Post
Yep that’s what I ordered in gloss white...2 of them. I was hoping some better performance subs around the same price like SVS types would come in gloss white. Hopefully these will be ok and do good in the big room until I move this system into the bedroom and get a better set up.
We go through B10s like popcorn. Do they plumb the very depths of infrasonic content? No. But then again I've argued that chasing down the goal of reproducing below 20 hz content is not even worthwhile ad nauseum on the JBL M2 and Synthesis threads (points being that most sub-20hz content in a recording is unintentional, as the vast majority of mix rooms aren't able to monitor content much below 25 hz, and that going much deeper than 20 hz means sacrificing output for extension, etc). The B10s will be tight, clean, and musical. They don't give much usable response below about 29 hz, though. The upshot is that most of what people perceive as "really deep bass" is actually between about 30 - 40 hz.
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post #12174 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 02:05 PM
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I need to see some frequency responses/measurements of mixing rooms/recording studio's...anyone got any links or data?

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post #12175 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
I'm curious how they'll sound, they don't look great from the spec sheet (especially extension when it comes to deep bass) but room gain and having two of them should help.

@John Schuermann had mentioned upthread that he was going to talk to the Revel guys about how they test subwoofers (or it might have been in the Synthesis/Revel home theater thread) and I may have missed the response or he may still be waiting for the info. For as great as Revel speakers are, their subs do seem to be lacking some on paper.
Still trying to get some direct info about Revel testing subs against competitors. Based on my discussions with Harman personnel on both the JBL and Revel side, a few things stand out (referred to in the post above):

  • Most sub-20hz content in a recording is unintentional, as the vast majority of mix rooms aren't able to monitor content much below 25 hz
  • In music recordings, much of this sub 20 hz content comes from HVAC, passing traffic, etc (which is why it's usually filtered out)
  • Going much deeper than 20 hz means sacrificing output for extension (FWIW, according to one of the top Synthesis calibrators the Revel B112 is clean down to 19 hz)

I got this statement from Dr. Toole recently:

Some movies and music have energy below 20 Hz which, if it can be reproduced at a sufficiently high sound level, can generate tactile sensations to accompany explosions and the like. Organ pedals and synthesizers can generate such frequencies in music, and the pressure fluctuations (there is no “tonal” component) can be impressive.

In movies it can add a sense of drama. Such sounds are often accidental, as few dubbing stages, post production facilities and recording studios are able to reproduce them. Some enthusiasts make a hobby of searching them out in movie sound tracks and spend impressive sums of money to reproduce them. One can debate whether this is more “accurate” or whether it is just an entertaining curiosity.

In my limited experience in chasing sub 20 Hz energy, I have noted that some of it is unwanted HVAC noise or microphonic pickup of foot tapping from the recording venue that has carelessly been included because it was not audible to the recording engineer through his/her playback system. Playback of LPs can generate substantial amounts of cone movement at subsonic frequencies (surface ripples and irregularities), which reduces the linear movement available for musically important bass. A look at equal-loudness contours indicates that subwoofers will have to work hard to generate anything “audible” at very low frequencies. Unnecessary very low frequencies are not musical, so it is not unusual for high-pass filters to be inserted in the signal path at the recording stage, or even at the playback stage.

The only caution really is that reproducing impressive amounts of subsonic energy can rob the playback system of linear cone displacement needed for “real” bass. Some seriously “high horsepower” subwoofers, very likely closed boxes, will be necessary to avoid such artifacts. Reflex enclosures offer no motion control below resonance, and I have witnessed woofer cones flopping wildly in response to subsonic input, modulating the real bass.
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post #12176 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
I need to see some frequency responses/measurements of mixing rooms/recording studio's...anyone got any links or data?
Check out Sean Olive's detailed blog post on how wildly mix control rooms vary here:

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/1...confusion.html

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post #12177 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I worked in several recording control rooms that had the monitors on the long wall. They all had problems with uneven bass. I rotated them 90 degrees (so the speakers were on short wall firing down the long wall) and it solved the problem. I think Bill's room is set up about as well as possible. When he moves the sub around to find the optimum location and dials in ARC, hopefully it will yield smooth bass response. Might need to add another sub....
As always excellent advice from Rex

When I have set up my mix system in several different rooms over the years, I always found the best sound was with the speakers along the short wall with the seating position about 25 - 33% of the way into the room.

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post #12178 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Check out Sean Olive's detailed blog post on how wildly mix control rooms vary here:

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/1...e-of-confusion.
page out of date

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post #12179 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 02:22 PM
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Weird - works for me - trying it again:

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/1...confusion.html

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post #12180 of 15575 Old 05-07-2018, 02:22 PM
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got it thanks

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
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