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post #12211 of 15110 Old 05-11-2018, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
BEHOLD!!! The F228Be and M126Be Spinoramas!
Like the new formatting. Much easier to read.
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post #12212 of 15110 Old 05-11-2018, 12:11 PM
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Very nice spins on the BE versions, John did they ever get around to measuring the S16? I know they were reworking something since they were on wall speakers, just curious.
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I forget if I asked this before...but when measuring spins or anything really, does it matter or is it a concern what volume they are recorded at? a set standard on volume?

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post #12214 of 15110 Old 05-11-2018, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
I forget if I asked this before...but when measuring spins or anything really, does it matter or is it a concern what volume they are recorded at? a set standard on volume?
It appears to be 1 Watt of power since they're usually around 85-88db as the volume.
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post #12215 of 15110 Old 05-11-2018, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
BEHOLD!!! The F228Be and M126Be Spinoramas!





As promised...
Cool, John! Seems like the F228's listening window is not as close to the on-axis as the 208, but directivity is smooth as can be, and look at the dispersion of that early reflection curve! It's just a few dB down from the listening window across the range, wow.
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post #12216 of 15110 Old 05-11-2018, 05:27 PM
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Anechoic "Spin" Stimulus Amplitude

Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
I forget if I asked this before...but when measuring spins or anything really, does it matter or is it a concern what volume they are recorded at? a set standard on volume?
Torii, We use the most honest method, which is to use 2.83V, rather than "1 watt" for sensitivity, since that doesn't give 4 Ohm speakers the same advantage as comparing at 1 watt. It is necessary to measure speaker at a distance of at least two meters. Consequently, we adjust the level to compensate for the 2m, rather than 1m measurement distance.

We also perform very important compression tests, which indicate how consistent the speaker sounds at various output levels. Revel has always emphasized the importance of freedom from dynamic compression, which is achieved by optimizing numerous parameters in the design process.

Kevin
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post #12217 of 15110 Old 05-11-2018, 05:59 PM
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Question: Why is there an on axis 3 dB dip between 6-10K on the F228Be?
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post #12218 of 15110 Old 05-11-2018, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Question: Why is there an on axis 3 dB dip between 6-10K on the F228Be?
I would say it is a difraction efect
You should look at The green líne (listening window ) it is more representative of what we percive
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Last edited by ValentinR; 05-11-2018 at 06:59 PM.
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post #12219 of 15110 Old 05-11-2018, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValentinR View Post
I would say it is a diffraction effect.
You should look at the green line (listening window). It is more representative of what we perceive.
I think that depends on how close (or far) we are to the speakers and how much acoustic treatment there is in the room.
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post #12220 of 15110 Old 05-11-2018, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
BEHOLD!!! The F228Be and M126Be Spinoramas!





As promised...




So it looks like the Bes will sound slightly more rolled off on the top end compared to the originals. The M126Be might have slightly more bass extension while the F228Be looks like it will actually have less than the F208.
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post #12221 of 15110 Old 05-11-2018, 10:06 PM
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I don't think the M126Be spin looks any better than the M106 spin, perhaps not even as good in some spots, so I'd assume that the improvements are in the areas of clarity, detail and reduced dynamic compression. The same probably holds true for the 228Be vs 208, though I see the 228 has a smoother DI, no doubt due to the upgraded waveguide and crossover.

I think we'll just have to hear them to appreciate the difference.

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post #12222 of 15110 Old 05-12-2018, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avkv View Post
Torii, We use the most honest method, which is to use 2.83V, rather than "1 watt" for sensitivity, since that doesn't give 4 Ohm speakers the same advantage as comparing at 1 watt. It is necessary to measure speaker at a distance of at least two meters. Consequently, we adjust the level to compensate for the 2m, rather than 1m measurement distance.

We also perform very important compression tests, which indicate how consistent the speaker sounds at various output levels. Revel has always emphasized the importance of freedom from dynamic compression, which is achieved by optimizing numerous parameters in the design process.

Kevin
Hi Kevin!

Can you please respond to the PM:s i wrote to you 1-2 week ago?

Thanks in advance!

//Mike
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post #12223 of 15110 Old 05-12-2018, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filmnut View Post
I don't think the M126Be spin looks any better than the M106 spin, perhaps not even as good in some spots, so I'd assume that the improvements are in the areas of clarity, detail and reduced dynamic compression. The same probably holds true for the 228Be vs 208, though I see the 228 has a smoother DI, no doubt due to the upgraded waveguide and crossover.

I think we'll just have to hear them to appreciate the difference.
Perhaps someone from Revel would like to share some design insights?
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post #12224 of 15110 Old 05-12-2018, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
Perhaps someone from Revel would like to share some design insights?
I think we have too be carefull with the comparisons of spinoramas
The gráfs have diferent gráfical ratios

I am glad that Harman luxury is presenting this new format on their measurements
This is setting an example

I think thease measurement wil be complemented with power compresión, distorsión levels Etc etc
So it’s even more descriptive of performance

Last edited by ValentinR; 05-12-2018 at 10:09 AM.
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post #12225 of 15110 Old 05-12-2018, 08:54 AM
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The 228Be's DI and off axis curves look even smoother than the Salon2's.
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post #12226 of 15110 Old 05-12-2018, 11:59 AM
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I found this to be a topical paper to the discussion. http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20180512/17839.pdf
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post #12227 of 15110 Old 05-12-2018, 01:49 PM
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Revel Performa Be F228Be, M126Be and Performa F208

Hello All,
There is visual confusion when trying to evaluate the listening window curve that lies on top of the much less valuable on-axis curve. Therefore, I have attached the F228Be Listening Window curve by itself, which is extremely good. I have also attached the Performa F208 Listening Window along with the Performa F228Be listening window, allowing a much easier visual comparison. As our research has long indicated, the listening window is a far better indicator of direct sound quality than is any on-axis curve. On-axis curves measured from just slightly different microphone locations will yield different results at high frequencies due to trivial local diffraction, making them misleading. The listening window greatly mitigates this problem.

Please note that these curves are not just a new format, but have been made with an entirely new measurement system, using the Klippel Analyzer, along with an updated anechoic chamber LF calibration. Therefore, these updated measurements, done with the same system, allow for valid comparisons. It is clear from these curves that the LF amplitude response is the same for both the F208 and F228Be. (Thank you to Mark Glazer for late Friday night work on these!)

As has been noted, the F228Be directivity curves are just sensational, which has been proven to be critically important in countless double-blind listening tests, and in the field. Harman researcher's work on the importance of first reflections--especially the side walls--proved that the speaker's output that contributes to these critical first reflections is as important as the direct sound. The radiation of the F228Be that contributes this reflected output matches that of the listening window extremely well, enhancing both the remarkably uncolored sound quality of the F228Be, and also results in the seamlessness of the transition from the midrange to the tweeter that is rarely found with any speaker, regardless of price. That seamlessness is a big part of making music sound real, rather than sounding like a mechanical facsimile. I have never heard a multi-driver speaker that achieves seamlessness without a properly designed waveguide.

Best regards,
Kevin
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post #12228 of 15110 Old 05-12-2018, 02:47 PM
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Thank you for elaborating, Kevin! How refreshing to see a company give out some actual objective data instead of a bunch of marketing/pseudoscience pamflets.
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post #12229 of 15110 Old 05-12-2018, 03:53 PM
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Just got a new pair of Revel M126BEs. Initial thoughts is, it's not quite as smooth as Dynaudio C1 MK2s, but isn't as bright as the Paradigm Persona B. It projects a wider image than the C1s, but a lot smaller than the Persona Bs, which IMO are almost godlike in their ability to create a giant image. More detail with percussion and string instruments than the C1s, but not as nimble as the Personas, when playing complex orchestral music it doesn't quite keep up with the beryllium midrange on the Personas and the individual instruments start to blend together. Also it doesn't have much bass but it is a much smaller speaker than the C1s or the Personas so it's to be expected, and EQing more bass somewhat lowers the quality of it.

For a speaker this small and at this price range it really is amazing. All 3 systems were calibrated with the default Dirac Live curve on a Minidsp DDRC-22D.

Going to compare this with the Salk Silk soon (msrp $3600), if it can keep up with a mail-order brand with flagship RAAL/Scanspeak drivers in the same price range I think Revel might have hit it out of the ballpark with this one.
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post #12230 of 15110 Old 05-12-2018, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakeshields View Post
Just got a new pair of Revel M126BEs. Initial thoughts is, it's not quite as smooth as Dynaudio C1 MK2s, but isn't as bright as the Paradigm Persona B. It projects a wider image than the C1s, but a lot smaller than the Persona Bs, which IMO are almost godlike in their ability to create a giant image. More detail with percussion and string instruments than the C1s, but not as nimble as the Personas, when playing complex orchestral music it doesn't quite keep up with the beryllium midrange on the Personas and the individual instruments start to blend together. Also it doesn't have much bass but it is a much smaller speaker than the C1s or the Personas so it's to be expected, and EQing more bass somewhat lowers the quality of it.

For a speaker this small and at this price range it really is amazing. All 3 systems were calibrated with the default Dirac Live curve on a Minidsp DDRC-22D.

Going to compare this with the Salk Silk soon (msrp $3600), if it can keep up with a mail-order brand with flagship RAAL/Scanspeak drivers in the same price range I think Revel might have hit it out of the ballpark with this one.
Interesting that you compare them to the C1s. In my HT, the C1s are my surround 5.1 speakers and the M126Bes will be my back 7.1 surrounds. (will have them in 2 days)
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post #12231 of 15110 Old 05-12-2018, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
It appears to be 1 Watt of power since they're usually around 85-88db as the volume.
Loudspeaker measurements are - or should be - measured with an input of 2.83 volts. This is 1 watt into 8 ohms, but the actual power delivered to the test loudspeaker will vary according to its impedance, which is not constant with frequency. This is done because power amplifiers (other than most tube amps because of high output impedances) are constant voltage sources.
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post #12232 of 15110 Old 05-12-2018, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutralguy View Post
The 228Be's DI and off axis curves look even smoother than the Salon2's.
Newer waveguide, ceramic drivers, it's an upgrade for sure. Things have changed quite a bit since Ultima2 ruled the roost.

Last edited by Jakeshields; 05-12-2018 at 10:07 PM.
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post #12233 of 15110 Old 05-12-2018, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakeshields View Post

Going to compare this with the Salk Silk soon (msrp $3600), if it can keep up with a mail-order brand with flagship RAAL/Scanspeak drivers in the same price range I think Revel might have hit it out of the ballpark with this one.
That comparison definitely deserves it's own thread, my money would be on the Revels but I've heard nothing but good things about the Silk either.
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post #12234 of 15110 Old 05-13-2018, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakeshields View Post
All 3 systems were calibrated with the default Dirac Live curve on a Minidsp DDRC-22D.
I wouldn't correct a speaker as well designed as the 126be above 300~ hz. It'll do more harm than good.

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post #12235 of 15110 Old 05-13-2018, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakeshields View Post
Newer waveguide, ceramic drivers, it's an upgrade for sure. Things have changed quite a bit since Ultima2 ruled the roost.
Not sure one could declare the Salon2 DOA just yet. However, I don’t think the same could be said for the Studio2, I think the performance of the F228be may make it irrelevant at its price point.
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post #12236 of 15110 Old 05-13-2018, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avkv View Post
Hello All,
There is visual confusion when trying to evaluate the listening window curve that lies on top of the much less valuable on-axis curve. Therefore, I have attached the F228Be Listening Window curve by itself, which is extremely good. I have also attached the Performa F208 Listening Window along with the Performa F228Be listening window, allowing a much easier visual comparison. As our research has long indicated, the listening window is a far better indicator of direct sound quality than is any on-axis curve. On-axis curves measured from just slightly different microphone locations will yield different results at high frequencies due to trivial local diffraction, making them misleading. The listening window greatly mitigates this problem.

Please note that these curves are not just a new format, but have been made with an entirely new measurement system, using the Klippel Analyzer, along with an updated anechoic chamber LF calibration. Therefore, these updated measurements, done with the same system, allow for valid comparisons. It is clear from these curves that the LF amplitude response is the same for both the F208 and F228Be. (Thank you to Mark Glazer for late Friday night work on these!)

As has been noted, the F228Be directivity curves are just sensational, which has been proven to be critically important in countless double-blind listening tests, and in the field. Harman researcher's work on the importance of first reflections--especially the side walls--proved that the speaker's output that contributes to these critical first reflections is as important as the direct sound. The radiation of the F228Be that contributes this reflected output matches that of the listening window extremely well, enhancing both the remarkably uncolored sound quality of the F228Be, and also results in the seamlessness of the transition from the midrange to the tweeter that is rarely found with any speaker, regardless of price. That seamlessness is a big part of making music sound real, rather than sounding like a mechanical facsimile. I have never heard a multi-driver speaker that achieves seamlessness without a properly designed waveguide.

Best regards,
Kevin
I'm not very technically savvy, but it appears to me that the F228Be has about 1 to 2 dB greater output from around 7kHz to around 16kHz. I assume this is with the same low input level. So, could this mean that the F228 might be perceived as being a bit more dynamic speaker on transient attacks such as drum strikes and orchestral crescendos? Or, would this difference be imperceptible in a normal listening environment?

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post #12237 of 15110 Old 05-13-2018, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrot View Post
I'm not very technically savvy, but it appears to me that the F228Be has about 1 to 2 dB greater output from around 7kHz to around 16kHz. I assume this is with the same low input level. So, could this mean that the F228 might be perceived as being a bit more dynamic speaker on transient attacks such as drum strikes and orchestral crescendos? Or, would this difference be imperceptible in a normal listening environment?
To me, it means it would have a bit more air and sparkle on top.

filmnut
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post #12238 of 15110 Old 05-13-2018, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filmnut View Post
To me, it means it would have a bit more air and sparkle on top.
Lol, that might be a good thing, given my aging ears! Maybe I could actually understand the dialog in movies.

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@avkv

Quote:
Harman researcher's work on the importance of first reflections--especially the side walls--proved that the speaker's output that contributes to these critical first reflections is as important as the direct sound.
Has there been any research performed in terms of how a loudspeaker's directivity index correlates to listener preference in domestic situations? We have attempted a blind test of the Revel M105 along with the JBL 705 - both are very well behaved loudspeakers but differ mostly in their directivity index, the M105 having wider dispersion up to about 10khz if I remember correctly. We were able to note differences although preference shifted with source material. has Harman performed any sort of testing on this particular subject? I'm particularly curious if there 1) is in fact a preference 2) if there is a correlation involving the room and/or listening distance.

Last edited by TimVG; 05-13-2018 at 08:05 AM.
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post #12240 of 15110 Old 05-13-2018, 01:30 PM
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Anyone here received the f228Be yet?
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