Revel Owners Thread - Page 410 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12271 of 16127 Old 05-15-2018, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
Tilt the Salon2 forward slightly by putting something under the back of the floorplate. They are quite tall and you're likely sitting somewhat below the tweeter axis. This should fix the imaging. Good luck.

Tim
Thanks for the recommendation Tim. As I had mentioned previously, I had already adjusted the spikes so that the tweeters were pointing at my ears. I couldn't stand the look of the tilted speakers so I leveled them ball and built a riser for the couch. Now my ears are at tweeter level.

Also, I need to reiterate that it's not an imaging problem as I had first stated. I incorrectly called it that. I meant to say the Salon2's soundstage was not as big and wide as the F52s they replaced. I'm almost sure it's due to the room being too small.
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post #12272 of 16127 Old 05-15-2018, 06:30 PM
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I left for a couple days after asking you about your speaker config.
Rex pretty much said what I would say.
It did seem to me the your listening position was not anywhere near an equilateral with the speakers.
This certainly is room dependent but it is always a good starting point.

Why I mentioned the rear firing vs down firing port on the speakers is that given your room dimensions, 4.5 feet from the back wall may not be optimal or necessary.
To me sitting too close to the speakers is one sure way to diminish the soundstage along with placing anything between higher than 18 inches on an equal distance to the speaker baffles between the speakers.
My Bro is well experienced with the Microset speaker placement regimen and I'm a believer in it.
My room is 24 wide by 17 deep by 9 high and my Studio2s were placed no more than 18 inches from the back wall and yielded a superb soundstage & imaging.
I realize that every room is different and has it's challenges.
I keep my living room pretty spare. No coffee table or big ottomans etc. as that can really affect things.
But it's always a trade off and subject to the realities of your lifestyle.

It is also a bgiant pain the a$$ to move large speakers around as well.
Good luck, Pal.
You've got some really sweet speakers there that can benefit from any improvement to your system and pay you back.
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post #12273 of 16127 Old 05-16-2018, 09:57 AM
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I have been in big rooms a few times with great speakers located several feet from side and front walls. It is better for achieving a 3D image with depth that doesn't occur when they are too close to side and/or front walls. That said, I'd rather sit at the apex of an equilateral triangle than have my speakers out from the front wall.

If you are doing home theater with a screen or TV between the speakers, there is no reason to have them sitting out from the front wall. The screen kills the perception of depth behind the speakers.
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post #12274 of 16127 Old 05-16-2018, 11:38 AM
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Revel F228Be

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakeshields View Post
Newer waveguide, ceramic drivers, it's an upgrade for sure. Things have changed quite a bit since Ultima2 ruled the roost.
Jakeshields,

To clarify, the F228Be and the M126Be are the beginning of a Revel Performa Be Series, and are not replacements for the Performa F208 or M106. They share only their basic industrial design. The Performa Be Series loudspeakers have quickly demonstrated their ability to outperform any competitors in their price ranges.

The F228Be's, which as they say, "Punch far above their weight," are still no match for Ultima Salon2s, which also "punch far above their weight" in their price range. We have yet to find any loudspeaker that matches the neutrality of the Salon2 at any price, although there are large speakers that will play louder--just not better.

Best regards,
Kevin
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post #12275 of 16127 Old 05-16-2018, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avkv View Post

To clarify, the F228Be and the M126Be are the beginning of a Revel Performa Be Series...

Best regards,
Kevin

The question is; when will we see them? Better yet, buy them?
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post #12276 of 16127 Old 05-16-2018, 11:48 AM
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Revel F228Be

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliens View Post
The question is, when will we see them? Better yet, buy them?
Hello Aliens,

Are you referring to the availability of the F228Be and M126Be?

Best regards,
Kevin
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post #12277 of 16127 Old 05-16-2018, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avkv View Post
Hello Aliens,

Are you referring to the availability of the F228Be and M126Be?

Best regards,
Kevin

Yes. Very much looking forward to owning the F228Be.
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post #12278 of 16127 Old 05-16-2018, 11:53 AM
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how come nobody is buying those used salon 2's for 8k on that popular website for used gear?

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post #12279 of 16127 Old 05-16-2018, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
Like the new formatting. Much easier to read.

Would still like a scale for DI though.

228 impressive; for the bookshelf they would’ve been better served using a variant of that 705i midwoofer, because their WG isn’t getting the tweeter low (or narrow) enough to play nicely with the SB Acoustics 7” woofer.

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post #12280 of 16127 Old 05-16-2018, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
how come nobody is buying those used salon 2's for 8k on that popular website for used gear?
Assuming you mean the pair on Audiogon... I wouldn't want speakers that are in "fictional" condition. Seriously though, read the description:

1) No original boxes. Unless replacement boxes are obtained, they will be a PITA to ship. The crates they built may or may not ensure safe arrival.
2) No grills.
3) Cosmetic blemishes.
4) The description is POORLY written, not a good way to sell something.
5) There was some debate earlier in this thread about whether the tweeters are the right ones or not.

So I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole. The price really isn't a great deal if you factor in all of the above and compare that to a used pair in better condition or even a new pair once you factor in warranty and so on.
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post #12281 of 16127 Old 05-16-2018, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
how come nobody is buying those used salon 2's for 8k on that popular website for used gear?
Someone on this thread said he had a friend who bought them and he lived in Chicago so he could check them out.

Since they are still for sale, I assume he checked them out and passed.
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post #12282 of 16127 Old 05-16-2018, 04:30 PM
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I did research the seller and that business in chicago has a lot of nice gear for sale...good to know about why havent sold yet. thanx

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post #12283 of 16127 Old 05-16-2018, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post
Assuming you mean the pair on Audiogon... I wouldn't want speakers that are in "fictional" condition. Seriously though, read the description:

1) No original boxes. Unless replacement boxes are obtained, they will be a PITA to ship. The crates they built may or may not ensure safe arrival.
2) No grills.
3) Cosmetic blemishes.
4) The description is POORLY written, not a good way to sell something.
5) There was some debate earlier in this thread about whether the tweeters are the right ones or not.

So I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole. The price really isn't a great deal if you factor in all of the above and compare that to a used pair in better condition or even a new pair once you factor in warranty and so on.
I'm with gsr.
I've looked at a lot of speakers online.
I looked at those Salons when they were first mentioned and I wouldn't consider buying unless I could look at them in person, and haul myself with at least a 1 week no questions return.

Having purchased Revel's online after talking to several of the sellers buying big speakers online like Studios & Salons is fraught with peril.
I paid $500 insured to have them shipped and prepared for shipping by FEDEX Freight.
Worth every penny.
To those who my not be familiar with freight shipping, the items are strapped and cellophane wrapped to a pallet.
Only a fork lift is used to move them and they're always upright.
Generally, loading your stuff on the truck is a 1 time deal.
They may pick up other items on the way to your station but stuff is already secured to the truck bed.
Mine made the trip totally unscathed but we had to de-pallet them at night in Winter before loading them into the 4Runner.
Fit with about 2mm clearance
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post #12284 of 16127 Old 05-16-2018, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
I paid $500 insured to have them shipped and prepared for shipping by FEDEX Freight. Worth every penny.

When I bought my Dunlavy SC-V's (330 lbs each), they built crates that were as good as coffins and shipped freight. Cost about $500, but that was a long time ago.

They arrived in perfect condition. A couple of friends helped move them into my house. One of them lost control of his end and put a big hole in my hallway drywall. No damage to the speaker cabinet.
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post #12285 of 16127 Old 05-16-2018, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
When I bought my Dunlavy SC-V's (330 lbs each), they built crates that were as good as coffins and shipped freight. Cost about $500, but that was a long time ago.

They arrived in perfect condition. A couple of friends helped move them into my house. One of them lost control of his end and put a big hole in my hallway drywall. No damage to the speaker cabinet.
To friend that lost control

“No soup for you!”
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post #12286 of 16127 Old 05-16-2018, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
I'm with gsr.
I've looked at a lot of speakers online.
I looked at those Salons when they were first mentioned and I wouldn't consider buying unless I could look at them in person, and haul myself with at least a 1 week no questions return.

Having purchased Revel's online after talking to several of the sellers buying big speakers online like Studios & Salons is fraught with peril.
I paid $500 insured to have them shipped and prepared for shipping by FEDEX Freight.
Worth every penny.
To those who my not be familiar with freight shipping, the items are strapped and cellophane wrapped to a pallet.
Only a fork lift is used to move them and they're always upright.
Generally, loading your stuff on the truck is a 1 time deal.
They may pick up other items on the way to your station but stuff is already secured to the truck bed.
Mine made the trip totally unscathed but we had to de-pallet them at night in Winter before loading them into the 4Runner.
Fit with about 2mm clearance
When I purchased my Intermezzo 4.1ts I used Uship.com to get them from Seattle to me in Florida. The seller said he lived in Seattle, but it turns out he lived on a small island off the coast of Seattle only accessible via ferry, so the guy who accepted the bid to bring them had to take a blanket-lined pickup truck to pick them up on the island (since his delivery truck couldn't get on the ferry) then load them in the truck on the mainland, and eventually bring them down to me. He did a good job bubble-wrapping them top to bottom and boxing them in in the back of his delivery truck so they couldn't jostle on the long trip across the country. Other than one of the power cords disappearing somewhere along the way they arrived as they should have.

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post #12287 of 16127 Old 05-17-2018, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avkv View Post
Jakeshields,

To clarify, the F228Be and the M126Be are the beginning of a Revel Performa Be Series, and are not replacements for the Performa F208 or M106. They share only their basic industrial design. The Performa Be Series loudspeakers have quickly demonstrated their ability to outperform any competitors in their price ranges.

The F228Be's, which as they say, "Punch far above their weight," are still no match for Ultima Salon2s, which also "punch far above their weight" in their price range. We have yet to find any loudspeaker that matches the neutrality of the Salon2 at any price, although there are large speakers that will play louder--just not better.

Best regards,
Kevin
So Kevin, just to be clear, the only step up from the F228Be is the Salon2. Where does that leave the Studio2, as an orphan in its price/performance class? It Appears that the cheaper 228 provides the same or increased performance as the Studio2 but at a lower price point? Not complaining really, that’s just the March of technological progress I guess.
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post #12288 of 16127 Old 05-17-2018, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post
Assuming you mean the pair on Audiogon... I wouldn't want speakers that are in "fictional" condition. Seriously though, read the description:

1) No original boxes. Unless replacement boxes are obtained, they will be a PITA to ship. The crates they built may or may not ensure safe arrival.
2) No grills.
3) Cosmetic blemishes.
4) The description is POORLY written, not a good way to sell something.
5) There was some debate earlier in this thread about whether the tweeters are the right ones or not.

So I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole. The price really isn't a great deal if you factor in all of the above and compare that to a used pair in better condition or even a new pair once you factor in warranty and so on.
They were sold a couple of weeks ago and my buddy bought them. He lives in Chicago and the seller built crates for transport. i’m not sure why the seller didn’t remove the listing once they were sold but whatever floats his boat.

To me it was a nice deal and the sound is simply amazing. i would have never used the grills anyway and yes there are some cosmetic blemishes but it’s not noticeable unless you are looking for it.

The tweeters are the right ones - I literally couldn’t believe how good they sounded after I helped him set them up.

On another note, after spending some time with the Salon2s i still don’t understand why speakers need to cost $22,000 because I just don’t see it. High end audio seems so artificially inflated so to think Revel needs to increase prices to $27k due to manufacturing costs for a 10 year old design seems odd. I get it somewhat if they had to pour millions into R&D which should be fully amortized by now (just my guess). It’s just my opinion so it is what it is. The market will drive demand.

Anyway, he got out of this Focals and it was probably the best decision he has ever made in audio gear. $8k used is still expensive but it would have been a worthwhile upgrade for me over the F208 if the opportunity arises again and i’m done paying tuition 🙂. Still, when i came home the F208 didn’t sound like crap so it’s still pretty darn good and good enough for my hearing abilities (its quickly diminishing haha).
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post #12289 of 16127 Old 05-17-2018, 07:44 AM
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If you think Salon2's are inflated best not look at some really expensive speakers... E.g. http://www.milliondollarstereos.com/speakerlist.php

My old speakers, $2k when I got them (almost 30 years ago) and around $6k now, are ridiculously high-priced to my sons who recently entered the workforce.

I was shocked when I got back into this hobby a few years ago at the price escalation, but pretty quickly realized much of it was reasonable and expected given inflation and such over the past 20-30 years. And some was not; $100k-plus speakers seem ridiculously priced to me, but OTOH plenty are sold to well-heeled folk around the world. The "ridiculous amount" line will vary for folk, natch, but while $20k+ is a heckuva' lot of money to me, it is in line with a lot of other "flagship" speakers around these days. And in fact given all the cabinetry, drivers, crossovers, and R&D behind them I thought the Salon2's were a relative bargain especially considering they were besting speakers at much higher price points. My short list had speakers in the $10k-$25k range for "last I'll ever own" models. Several higher-end, or at least higher-priced, models dropped off my list because they had just way outstripped inflation and my ability to pay.

At 7% or so gain per year over 10 years or so your money doubles. Chances are anything you looked at ten years ago costs 2x now what it did then. Inflation has been low the past few years and technologically the trend is more features and performance for the same price so, while the very top end has escalated, what your money buys at the lower end is generally much better than ten years ago. It's all sort of relative. And of course "what the market will bear" applies.

The really good news is that $1k-$2k gets you a speaker pair competitive with $10k+ models, a benefit of the R&D and manufacturing power of Revel (Harman, JBL, whatever).

All IMO - Don

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post #12290 of 16127 Old 05-17-2018, 07:44 AM
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Grills on or off?

A quick sanity check, please.

Not surprisingly, keeping grills on speakers has a higher SAF/WAF than taking them off. But I think my C208 has a little better dialog clarity without the grill, and that my F208's sound better without the grills. For the moment, the grills are still on my M106's surround channels.

Do you run with grills on or off? On all channels? Why?

Not trying to stir up controversy, just trying to figure out if I'm deluding myself.

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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post #12291 of 16127 Old 05-17-2018, 07:48 AM
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Grills can do various things including attenuate the treble and affect dispersion. Most designs include the impact of grills in the final result, but some do not, and some provide specs both ways. Most of the time I've not been able to tell blind even when I was sure that I could sighted but "most" is not "all".

I keep mine on because they sound OK to me with them on, I prefer the look with the black grills in place, and hate dust on the drivers (and am not good at dusting them off). When the boys were younger I had additional reasons, mainly to protect my speakers from them, and them from the consequences should they smash a driver.
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post #12292 of 16127 Old 05-17-2018, 08:53 AM
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From post #11740 by Kevin Voecks:

Quote:
Originally Posted by avkv View Post
Grilles are almost always a significant sonic degradation, due to a combination of introducing diffraction/reflections as well as the transparency of the cloth. The Ultima2 Series Studio2 and Salon2 have truly diffraction and reflection-free grilles, although the cloth has a slight HF effect. If the cloth were any more sheer, it would no long hide the transducers.

Best regards,
Kevin
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post #12293 of 16127 Old 05-17-2018, 09:09 AM
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DonH50, can't say I've seen specs with grills on vs. off but OTOH I never thought to look for it. Now I will!

filmnut, thanks for the ref to Kevin's post. Now that you've pointed it out, I do vaguely remember reading that. Clearly it didn't seem important at the time.

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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post #12294 of 16127 Old 05-17-2018, 09:26 AM
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To follow that, Kevin also stated that all measurements and blind testing at Harman is done with grilles off.
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post #12295 of 16127 Old 05-17-2018, 11:20 AM
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Duc135, I'm really trying to understand why the Salon's v1 and v2 image so much different than other speakers, and I agree that the F52's were the best in the business at imaging. Maybe it was luck as Harman spinorama only uses 1 speaker to determine listeners preference and the ultima's are designed to have wide dispersion. With all the R&D and driver matching I would expect the Ultima's to be world class thus i'm beginning to doubt what I think I'm used to hearing from a pair of speakers. It's hard to describe what the two speakers do different but I do notice the F52 pulls me in, relaxing my brain while it 'see's' a story unfold.The Ultima's are on the opposite end amazing me with their room filling sound making me laugh out loud. I want it all and at this price I expect it's there, I just haven't found the spot in my room that gives it to me.
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post #12296 of 16127 Old 05-17-2018, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
A quick sanity check, please.

Not surprisingly, keeping grills on speakers has a higher SAF/WAF than taking them off. But I think my C208 has a little better dialog clarity without the grill, and that my F208's sound better without the grills. For the moment, the grills are still on my M106's surround channels.

Do you run with grills on or off? On all channels? Why?

Not trying to stir up controversy, just trying to figure out if I'm deluding myself.
[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
I leave my grills off on my C208 & F208 too bc they clearly sound better that way. I leave em on for the surrounds as well. I have the old Concerta F12s.
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post #12297 of 16127 Old 05-17-2018, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
A quick sanity check, please.

Not surprisingly, keeping grills on speakers has a higher SAF/WAF than taking them off. But I think my C208 has a little better dialog clarity without the grill, and that my F208's sound better without the grills. For the moment, the grills are still on my M106's surround channels.

Do you run with grills on or off? On all channels? Why?

Not trying to stir up controversy, just trying to figure out if I'm deluding myself.
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For me, keeping an accidental poke from curious little hands is why I keep on speaker grills. My girls know not to touch the speakers but no sense in temptation
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post #12298 of 16127 Old 05-17-2018, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bmwuk View Post
For me, keeping an accidental poke from curious little hands is why I keep on speaker grills. My girls know not to touch the speakers but no sense in temptation
Speakers must be like bubble wrap to little ones.
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post #12299 of 16127 Old 05-17-2018, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bmwuk View Post
For me, keeping an accidental poke from curious little hands is why I keep on speaker grills. My girls know not to touch the speakers but no sense in temptation
Speakers must be like bubble wrap to little ones.
For my girls I have a couple of mid range drivers and tweeters I removed from some no longer working speakers and they are welcome to poke them all they want. And they know not to touch the working speakers. But no sense in pushing my luck and accidents do happen
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post #12300 of 16127 Old 05-17-2018, 06:28 PM
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Speakers must be like bubble wrap to little ones.
And like catnip to cats!

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