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post #12361 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by newrival View Post
Hey all,

I am to purchase either the M126Be or the F208 for a studio I am building that will have an open floor space of 24' x 18' with a 9' ceiling height. Music of literally all types.

I heard the m126Ne at AXPONA this year and was blown away. These will be my first set of Revels. I have run all kinds of speakers in the past (mostly open baffles - but my current home and lifestyle does not support the room needed for them anymore), and currently have Anthony Gallos in the media room and KEF LS50W in the office. This should tell you that I am into detail, imaging, and emersion.

I have a pair of Rhythmik F15HPs that I could use with the M126 to compensate for the narrower range vs the f208
so the question is: M126Be with dual subs vs. f208 Thanks in advance for your input!



As much as I like my F208's, because you have subs, I'd go with the M126Be.
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post #12362 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 09:24 AM
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Anyone know if it's ok to elevate F206 towers 8"-12"? It's nice that they are short, but don't taller towers usually have a better sound stage? I thought I read a professional review were reviewer placed the F206, just can't find it.
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post #12363 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post
Anyone know if it's ok to elevate F206 towers 8"-12"? It's nice that they are short, but don't taller towers usually have a better sound stage? I thought I read a professional review were reviewer placed the F206, just can't find it.
Rule of thumb is that the tweeters should be at ear level.
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post #12364 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
As much as I like my F208's, because you have subs, I'd go with the M126Be.
I've only heard the F228, holding out for a possible F226. No idea when or if it will be released, but if you can wait, might be of your interest especially with a sub for the real deep notes.
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post #12365 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by duc135 View Post
Rule of thumb is that the tweeters should be at ear level.
Makes since, seems like it's better to error on the side of being a little above error if not level. Just not sure how much impact the elevation would have on the sound, especially bass, i.e. floor bounce.
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post #12366 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post
I've only heard the F228, holding out for a possible F226. No idea when or if it will be released, but if you can wait, might be of your interest especially with a sub for the real deep notes.

At the rate the Be series are being released, you may be taking a trip to Mars before we ever see these in our homes.

Can you tell I'm frustrated?

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post #12367 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post
Makes since, seems like it's better to error on the side of being a little above error if not level. Just not sure how much impact the elevation would have on the sound, especially bass, i.e. floor bounce.
If you have subs and are crossing over the lower frequencies the point would be moot. IIRC, Dr. Toole has his Salon2s flipped upside down. The tweeters are at ear level, but the bass drivers are closer to the ceiling than the floor. I don't know how he has them setup with subs though. Easy enough to test. Just get some milk crates or something similar to place the speakers on temporarily.
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post #12368 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 11:50 AM
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6Since John S mentioned Dr. Toole having his Salon2's flipped I've been wondering how he did that and what it looks like.

My wife had issues with how horns look. Should be entertaining to get her opinion on this.
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post #12369 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 11:52 AM
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Lots of pictures, some in this thread IIRC. They are inverted and sitting atop (on) a cabinet along his front wall so flipping them puts the tweeters at ear height.

A hat can help cover your horns. Or were you talking about speakers?
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post #12370 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post
I've only heard the F228, holding out for a possible F226. No idea when or if it will be released, but if you can wait, might be of your interest especially with a sub for the real deep notes.
Is an f226 an eventuality or just extrapolation of the line? I haven't heard anything about it from reps, and they have been showing the Be line for a while now.

At any rate, an F226Be would likely be out of my budget, and come in around $7500. I'm trying to keep my speakers below $5k.
While I am confident in being able to blend my subs well with the bookshelves, I'm wondering how much I might lose in midbass impact. When I hear the M126 at AXPONA, they were run unassisted by subwoofers, and I thought the sound was remarkable.
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post #12371 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 03:49 PM
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Nobody got the BE’s yet? It’s dead silent in here ....
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post #12372 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 03:51 PM
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I was impressed with the f208 BUT I wouls consider them musical speakers before I would call them analytical.

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post #12373 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newrival View Post
Is an f226 an eventuality or just extrapolation of the line? I haven't heard anything about it from reps, and they have been showing the Be line for a while now.

At any rate, an F226Be would likely be out of my budget, and come in around $7500. I'm trying to keep my speakers below $5k.
While I am confident in being able to blend my subs well with the bookshelves, I'm wondering how much I might lose in midbass impact. When I hear the M126 at AXPONA, they were run unassisted by subwoofers, and I thought the sound was remarkable.
You can get a used pair of F208's for about $3k which is an amazing price/quality ratio. If you don't like them (which I seriously doubt would happen), you can sell them for what you paid for them.

For example: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/li...nly-full-range

If your room can handle the F208's and your subs comfortably, you will get more out of the towers than bookshelves. A good 150 watt/channel amp is highly recommended. My Bryston 3B SST2 has enough power to get louder than my ears can handle. Benchmark AHB2 would be another good option.

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post #12374 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by steven59 View Post
I was impressed with the f208 BUT I would consider them musical speakers before I would call them analytical.

I call them both. They sound great (musical) and measure extremely well. Exactly what I was looking for.

As an audio pro (recording/mixing engineer), I need analytical, neutral, and detailed. As an avid audiophile, I want them to sound great and let me enjoy the recording.

Obviously, they are source quality and material dependent. They just tell you what the rest of the system and program material sound like.

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post #12375 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Lots of pictures, some in this thread IIRC. They are inverted and sitting atop (on) a cabinet along his front wall so flipping them puts the tweeters at ear height.

A hat can help cover your horns. Or were you talking about speakers?
You asked what my speakers look like upside down. Here it is, again.

This is earthquake territory so they are sitting on 1/4 inch steel plates cantilevered from the top of the display cabinet, with a strong angle bracket at the top, all of it strongly attached to the frame of the house. Getting these monsters up there without hurting someone or something took a bit of doing - renting a lift was the key, but two very strong men helped (not me!).

Several pairs of critical ears have heard the system as it is, - no EQ above about 200 Hz (yet . . . my SDP75/24 is coming soon and height speakers are soon to be installed). All listeners have been complimentary (or very polite :-). John S. was here a few days ago and commented on this thread about what he heard. I think it is the best sound I can remember hearing. As measurements and double-blind tests indicate, we are past the point of diminishing returns. The weak link is now recordings, and this system is unforgiving.

Having the soundstage slightly elevated is a very pleasant experience in stereo and of course it puts the sound where it belongs for big screen movies. The sound is very "open", great soundstage and imaging - all my opinion, not science :-)

For those concerned about the 2 pi mounting, note that the wall is not flat - it was designed by me, years ago, to be a multi-depth scattering surface/art display. It works. I joke that the secret acoustical ingredient is the scattering from bronze sculptures of the female form.
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post #12376 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post
Makes sense, seems like it's better to error on the side of being a little above error if not level. Just not sure how much impact the elevation would have on the sound, especially bass, i.e. floor bounce.

When I sit on my couch, the tweeters on my F208's are a bit above ear level. I think the F206's tweeter would be right at ear level. I'll let you know when I get a pair to use as rear surrounds!
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post #12377 of 16087 Old 06-01-2018, 07:34 PM
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I've personally found that I prefer "slightly above ear level" to "slightly below ear level." Ear level is great, but can be hard to achieve without ideal furniture.

I actually often sit on the floor to listen to my M105s, although that has more to do with bass boundary reinforcement.
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post #12378 of 16087 Old 06-02-2018, 11:15 AM
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In my near 50 years of exploring the science of audio I know of no research that addressed the "ideal" elevation of loudspeakers. From a technical point of view, one could argue that the direct sound arriving at a listener should be the best that a loudspeaker is capable of, which means the performance on the "reference axis" - almost never defined by a manufacturer, but widely assumed to be the tweeter axis. So the tradition developed that ear level tweeters were necessary.

However, current generation loudspeakers that are well designed exhibit very little difference between 0 deg on axis anechoic, and the spatially averaged listening window - an average of nine curves at 10 deg increments, ranging from +/- 30 deg hor. and +/- 10 deg vertical. So in reality there is a fairly generous acceptable loudspeaker/listener orientation window. With well designed loudspeakers the small differences are well within one's ability of adapt, and may be less than manufacturing tolerances on most loudspeakers. In fairness it must be noted that there are some loudspeakers that are extremely directional, so there may well be only one listening axis. For those to be elevated a tilt must be introduced.

So, the real question relates to the perceived "soundstage" and how it fits into listener expectations. Frankly, I often felt over the years that conventional loudspeaker placement yielded an unrealistically low presentation, but one of course adapts to that and it becomes the "norm". Until, one experiments. With visual images being elevated there is a justification for elevating the loudspeakers, but even then, the ventriloquism effect is so powerful that we don't notice that for much of most movies all of the consequential sounds come from the center channel, and it can be above or below the screen without being noticed - even in cinemas unless one sits close to the front.

As I, and friends, experience my current system the consensus from stereo listening is that inverting the Salon2s results in a very slightly elevated soundstage, which is very open. It is an attractive presentation - for me. For movies it is right on target. Such an arrangement also liberates valuable floor space. In recording studios it is common for monitor speakers to be slightly elevated, and tilted if necessary. So-o-o-o if one believes in the circle of confusion, there is precedent :-)
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post #12379 of 16087 Old 06-02-2018, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
In my near 50 years of exploring the science of audio I know of no research that addressed the "ideal" elevation of loudspeakers. From a technical point of view, one could argue that the direct sound arriving at a listener should be the best that a loudspeaker is capable of, which means the performance on the "reference axis" - almost never defined by a manufacturer, but widely assumed to be the tweeter axis. So the tradition developed that ear level tweeters were necessary.

However, current generation loudspeakers that are well designed exhibit very little difference between 0 deg on axis anechoic, and the spatially averaged listening window - an average of nine curves at 10 deg increments, ranging from +/- 30 deg hor. and +/- 10 deg vertical. So in reality there is a fairly generous acceptable loudspeaker/listener orientation window. With well designed loudspeakers the small differences are well within one's ability of adapt, and may be less than manufacturing tolerances on most loudspeakers. In fairness it must be noted that there are some loudspeakers that are extremely directional, so there may well be only one listening axis. For those to be elevated a tilt must be introduced.

So, the real question relates to the perceived "soundstage" and how it fits into listener expectations. Frankly, I often felt over the years that conventional loudspeaker placement yielded an unrealistically low presentation, but one of course adapts to that and it becomes the "norm". Until, one experiments. With visual images being elevated there is a justification for elevating the loudspeakers, but even then, the ventriloquism effect is so powerful that we don't notice that for much of most movies all of the consequential sounds come from the center channel, and it can be above or below the screen without being noticed - even in cinemas unless one sits close to the front.

As I, and friends, experience my current system the consensus from stereo listening is that inverting the Salon2s results in a very slightly elevated soundstage, which is very open. It is an attractive presentation - for me. For movies it is right on target. Such an arrangement also liberates valuable floor space. In recording studios it is common for monitor speakers to be slightly elevated, and tilted if necessary. So-o-o-o if one believes in the circle of confusion, there is precedent :-)
Great system you’ve put together there Dr. Toole. A quick glance at your photos appears to indicate that you have removed the bases from the inverted Salon2s. In your opinion, does this have any effect on the bass loading the bottom exiting port would normally see? I ask because I have contemplated removing the bases and replacing with isolation footers such as the isoteks but I am concerned it may have a deleterious effect on the bass loading if the port exit “sees” a different resistance due to height. Thanks

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post #12380 of 16087 Old 06-02-2018, 11:56 AM
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Great system you’ve put together there Dr. Toole. A quick glance at your photos appears to indicate that you have removed the bases from the inverted Salon2s. In your opinion, does this have any effect on the bass loading the bottom exiting port would normally see? I ask because I have contemplated removing the bases and replacing with isolation footers such as the isoteks but I am concerned it may have a deleterious effect on the bass loading if the port exit “sees” a different resistance due to height. Thanks
I bass manage my system, as I indicated with four subs in a sound field managed scheme, so the Salon2s are high-pass filtered. The ports do nothing. I cannot imagine what advantage "isolation footers" have except for those who make and sell them. When I have looked at some of them they clearly do not understand high school physics - the relationship between the supported mass and the resonant frequency of the support system. One size does not fit all. Do you have a trampoline floor that radiates bass? In any event, the mass of the Salon2s is enough to minimize any such activity. If such devices were audibly advantageous manufacturers would build them in. It is not expensive or complicated, and knowing the exact mass to be supported, they could be designed to really be effective - and generate even more revenue. Spikes are fine unless they damage your wood floor - they stabilize tall heavy speakers sitting on carpet and underlay.

The port tuning does include the proximity of the base as part of the acoustical design. Relax and enjoy your great speakers.
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post #12381 of 16087 Old 06-03-2018, 09:14 AM
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Nice system ya got there, Floyd.
When John first described the inverted Salons it seemed nutty and breaks most of the "rules" of speaker placement.
In actuality it looks pretty cool, but obviously looks are meaningless unless it sounds the way you like.

Thinking outside the box for sure.
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post #12382 of 16087 Old 06-03-2018, 11:41 AM
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Nice system ya got there, Floyd.
When John first described the inverted Salons it seemed nutty and breaks most of the "rules" of speaker placement.
In actuality it looks pretty cool, but obviously looks are meaningless unless it sounds the way you like.

Thinking outside the box for sure.
"Thinking outside the box for sure"

I could not have been a successful scientist if I was constrained by intellectual "boxes". Many of them have no basis in provable fact. In audio there are several traditions that need to be seriously questioned, if not retired
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post #12383 of 16087 Old 06-03-2018, 12:11 PM
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I once had to work in a recording control room that had monitors on stands that were too tall placing the tweeters well above my ear height. I turned them upside down and voila, tweeters at ear height. Looked kinda weird at first but sounded much better. Freaked out a lot of people when they first saw them. I could tell they were thinking "why didn't I think of that"?....

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post #12384 of 16087 Old 06-03-2018, 12:26 PM
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In audio there are several traditions that need to be seriously questioned, if not retired
Well, get back to work! You're not done yet.
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post #12385 of 16087 Old 06-03-2018, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by newrival View Post

so the question is: M126Be with dual subs vs. f208


Thanks in advance for your input!

I'd go with the M126Be with subs. I run M105s with subs (crossed at 100Hz) and they compare very well to just about anything I've put against them.

In fact, supported by subs, apart from some extra dynamic range (and perhaps some lower distortion as well) they don't seem to be miles apart with a +/-1dB listening window, wide dispersion and well behaved early reflections.
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post #12386 of 16087 Old 06-04-2018, 12:07 PM
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I'd go with the M126Be with subs. I run M105s with subs (crossed at 100Hz) and they compare very well to just about anything I've put against them.

In fact, supported by subs, apart from some extra dynamic range (and perhaps some lower distortion as well) they don't seem to be miles apart with a +/-1dB listening window, wide dispersion and well behaved early reflections.
That's how I'd see it too. On the 208s there are two 8" drivers to handle the range from 100 Hz (or whatever xover is chosen for the sub with the 126Be's) up to their low pass corner frequency which I think is around 270 Hz. By comparison, one 6.5" driver will have less linearity and thus more distortion and less headroom over that particular passband. There's a good bit of energy in that band in most music so depending on dynamic range and spectrum of the source material and how loud you like it, the 208 could have a significant advantage there.

If you assume the existing subs would also be used with the 208s, then it's a wash below the sub xover frequency, whatever is chosen for either speaker/sub. The benefit in that scenario is with the 208s and the subs, the xover can be set lower without compromising audio quality above the xover frequency. With the 126Be's, the sub xover may need to be set at a frequency higher than would normally be done to avoid localization of the sound from the sub if they aren't colocated. In other words, you'd have less flexibility in locating the subs to optimize their performance.

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post #12387 of 16087 Old 06-04-2018, 04:29 PM
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Hey all,

I am to purchase either the M126Be or the F208 for a studio I am building that will have an open floor space of 24' x 18' with a 9' ceiling height. Music of literally all types.

I heard the m126Ne at AXPONA this year and was blown away. These will be my first set of Revels. I have run all kinds of speakers in the past (mostly open baffles - but my current home and lifestyle does not support the room needed for them anymore), and currently have Anthony Gallos in the media room and KEF LS50W in the office. This should tell you that I am into detail, imaging, and emersion.

I have a pair of Rhythmik F15HPs that I could use with the M126 to compensate for the narrower range vs the f208

so the question is: M126Be with dual subs vs. f208


Thanks in advance for your input!
This is the response I got from someone at Harman Luxury (I didn’t ask if it was ok to share their name, hence my vagueness) when I asked the same question.

“Personal preference - tough call. For overall convenience and good sound I would opt for the F208. Its ‘ready to go’ as is.

Depending on the sub quality and skill of blending with the M126, could achieve more of an audiophile sound over the F208.”

For what it’s worth, I opted for the M126Be’s to pair with my dual JL subs and will be using the crossover in my Parasound Halo Integrated. This is a secondary system used for just music in my average to largish living room at moderate listening levels. While it’s my secondary system, I listen to it probably 20 hours a week as I work from home.

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post #12388 of 16087 Old 06-04-2018, 05:08 PM
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in a larger space you need towers imo...I have been thinking about getting higher quality bookshelves w/subs and it just isnt same as towers and subs...
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Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #12389 of 16087 Old 06-05-2018, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
I'd go with the M126Be with subs. I run M105s with subs (crossed at 100Hz) and they compare very well to just about anything I've put against them.

In fact, supported by subs, apart from some extra dynamic range (and perhaps some lower distortion as well) they don't seem to be miles apart with a +/-1dB listening window, wide dispersion and well behaved early reflections.
I greatly appreciate the experiential insight. If you don't mind my asking, what subwoofers do you currently employ, and in what arrangement?

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Originally Posted by russ_777 View Post
That's how I'd see it too. On the 208 there are two 8" drivers to handle the range from 100 Hz (or whatever xover is chosen for the sub with the 126Be's or 208's) up to their low pass corner frequency which I think is around 270 Hz. One 6.5" driver will have less headroom and less linearity and thus more distortion in that particular passband. There's a good bit of energy in that band in most music so depending on dynamic range and spectrum of the source material and how loud you like it, the 208 could have a significant advantage there.
All great points. I do likely need to assess my listening habits. Truth be told, I do love the occasional spirited listening session, especially with a live recording (i.e. Liek JT by Patricia Barber from Companion). I've also heard it explained that the dispersion characteristics of a 2-way monitor with one larger cone driver due to driver depth/angle is less favorable to a 3-way of similar design. Seemed to make sense, though I don't know much about that.
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post #12390 of 16087 Old 06-05-2018, 07:07 AM
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in a larger space you need towers imo...I have been thinking about getting higher quality bookshelves w/subs and it just isnt same as towers and subs...
Is that to say you actually did go with monitors and subs and were unhappy? Or just through your research?
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