Revel Owners Thread - Page 418 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12511 of 16196 Old 06-17-2018, 12:13 PM
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I don't about not judging anything regarding a speaker in a dealer showroom.
Depends on the room and the setup, imo.

I was able to correctly judge the "profile" of what Studio2s would sound like in my house by listening to Salon2s at a dealer.
In fact the dealer had a "better" room than my living room at the time.
Obviously the true test is in your home with your gear but given the nature of Revel speakers any decent dealer will likely pair them with upstream gear
that is likely better or maybe more accurately, more expensive than what many auditioners have, unless they're idiots.

I went to one "Audio Fest" years ago and would have never made a buying decision based on that.
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post #12512 of 16196 Old 06-17-2018, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
So this brings me to my next point. People should not buy a damn thing based off of what they hear at their dealers showroom. To do so will give someone a false sense of what the speakers actually sound like. I'll be more blunt. It's meaningless to conclude anything unless you have a good understanding of that room.
Yep, that's what I've been telling people since about 1980. Even sang it in this thread a few months ago. Nobody listens. People hear speaker x at store x on one day, then listen to speaker y a week later at store y, then hear speaker z at a friend's house a week after that, and then go on the internet forums and advise others that x lacks bass, y is the bomb, and z sounds harsh in the treble.

You can get by with A/B/C'ing the speakers if they're all set up in the same room with identical placement on the same day, but if not then you're comparing apples, oranges and pears.
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post #12513 of 16196 Old 06-17-2018, 04:03 PM
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I have joined the Revel family recently by replacing my 2001 Paradigm speakers (monitor 9s) with the F206s. I am not in the Salon2 big leagues but I felt price to performance and my budget, these are flipping winners. I am ordering the C208 tomorrow (Father's Day gift - Happy Father's Day BTW) and will slowly phase out my 4 rears with Revel, either the Concerta Bookshelf speakers or the M105s. My primary use is movie watching and I never listen to mutichannel music. So the matching isn't imperative to me

Am I good with Concerta2s on the rears eventually? I felt the front soundstage was very important to get the best I could under my budget. Thanks
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post #12514 of 16196 Old 06-17-2018, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Spinaker01 View Post
I generally enjoy watching the daily YouTube videos that Paul McGowen of PS Audio does but last week when queried about some speaker choices, he discounted Revel speakers as “not highly resolving”. I had to admit, I found this a bit odd because it’s one of the traits I have come to value in the Revel lineup. I may at times accuse them of being unforgiving but this is generally related to source/room issues. I like that they sound very different with varying source materials which to me, indicates they don’t overwhelm with too much of an over-riding house sound but accurately reflect what’s input to them. They also permit me to identify clearly equipment changes I’ve made upstream. I guess I need to hear the big infinity’s some day. To each his own I guess.
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post #12515 of 16196 Old 06-17-2018, 11:55 PM
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New Revel owner looking for input on Amplifier selection.

Hi Revel owners. I am posting this here in the Revel owners thread because I want to heat from other people who have the same speakers as I do. From all my research different amp/speaker combos will result in a vastly different sound and since I can't demo what I am looking for I hope you guys can help me finalize this decision. I prefer a warmer sound to bright.

The setup will be 7.2 and be used 50/50 music/movies. F208's, C208 and a B112 up front. A pair of M106's on the sides and F206's with a B110 holding up the rear. The house is an open floor plan so there is a lot of open space into the kitchen and dining/sitting area. The ceiling tapers to a peak of 12' in the living and dining are of the house. The area for the system is 42'x22' with the front portion having the vaulted ceiling. Seating is centered. The adjacent space will double this plus a little. The side speakers are really close (3') from the two main seats. The front and rears are set a couple feet from the walls.

The three brands that I have on my short list are Rotel, Anthem and Parasound. I have referenced list prices for comparison. I am open to other brands as well.

Rotel.
RSP-1582 Pre/Pro $3,500
RB-1590 Amp 2x350w $3,000
RMB-1585 Amp 5x200w $3,000

Anthem.
AVM-60 Pre/Pro $3,000
P2 Amp 2x325w $4,500
A5 Amp 5x225w $4,000
OR
AVM-60 Pre/Pro $3,000
STR Amp 2x400w $6,000
A5 Amp 5x225w $4,000

Parasound.
P7 Preamplifier $2,300
JC5 Amp 2x400w $6,000
A51 Amp 5x250w $4,800
OR
P7 Preamplifier $2,300
JC1 Amp 1x400w $13,500 (total for 3)
A21 Amp 2x250w $5,000 (total for 2)

I am sure I would be blown away with any of them. I do want to get the most out of the speakers musically and for movies and not under power them. I like it loud at times, :-) I was not planning on spending as much as the BIG Parasound setup but if it's worth it...I probably should say here to talk me out of it Haha. I really like two things about Parasound. First is that they offer a Preamp that does not have processing so I can let the player do all the processing. Second is that they have monoblocks amps so I can feed the center channel with enough power for movies if I decide to go for the higher end system. I have read that the Anthem is a bit brighter than the Rotel or Parasound but not specifically with Revel Performa3's. So there ya have it. I'm looking forward to the feedback from the forum members here.

Additional equipment will be the new Panasonic UB9000 Blue Ray, one of the Pro-ject turntables and a dedicated laptop for tidal streaming.
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post #12516 of 16196 Old 06-18-2018, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by HeavyMetal777 View Post
New Revel owner looking for input on Amplifier selection.

Hi Revel owners. I am posting this here in the Revel owners thread because I want to heat from other people who have the same speakers as I do. From all my research different amp/speaker combos will result in a vastly different sound and since I can't demo what I am looking for I hope you guys can help me finalize this decision. I prefer a warmer sound to bright.

The setup will be 7.2 and be used 50/50 music/movies. F208's, C208 and a B112 up front. A pair of M106's on the sides and F206's with a B110 holding up the rear. The house is an open floor plan so there is a lot of open space into the kitchen and dining/sitting area. The ceiling tapers to a peak of 12' in the living and dining are of the house. The area for the system is 42'x22' with the front portion having the vaulted ceiling. Seating is centered. The adjacent space will double this plus a little. The side speakers are really close (3') from the two main seats. The front and rears are set a couple feet from the walls.

The three brands that I have on my short list are Rotel, Anthem and Parasound. I have referenced list prices for comparison. I am open to other brands as well.

Rotel.
RSP-1582 Pre/Pro $3,500
RB-1590 Amp 2x350w $3,000
RMB-1585 Amp 5x200w $3,000

Anthem.
AVM-60 Pre/Pro $3,000
P2 Amp 2x325w $4,500
A5 Amp 5x225w $4,000
OR
AVM-60 Pre/Pro $3,000
STR Amp 2x400w $6,000
A5 Amp 5x225w $4,000

Parasound.
P7 Preamplifier $2,300
JC5 Amp 2x400w $6,000
A51 Amp 5x250w $4,800
OR
P7 Preamplifier $2,300
JC1 Amp 1x400w $13,500 (total for 3)
A21 Amp 2x250w $5,000 (total for 2)

I am sure I would be blown away with any of them. I do want to get the most out of the speakers musically and for movies and not under power them. I like it loud at times, :-) I was not planning on spending as much as the BIG Parasound setup but if it's worth it...I probably should say here to talk me out of it Haha. I really like two things about Parasound. First is that they offer a Preamp that does not have processing so I can let the player do all the processing. Second is that they have monoblocks amps so I can feed the center channel with enough power for movies if I decide to go for the higher end system. I have read that the Anthem is a bit brighter than the Rotel or Parasound but not specifically with Revel Performa3's. So there ya have it. I'm looking forward to the feedback from the forum members here.

Additional equipment will be the new Panasonic UB9000 Blue Ray, one of the Pro-ject turntables and a dedicated laptop for tidal streaming.



Whts your overall budget? I can’t quite get a sense, but feels like your skewed more to the electronics in the electronics:speakers ratio
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post #12517 of 16196 Old 06-18-2018, 07:04 AM
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Are you aware the Parasound P7 has no DSP? No digital decoding and no bass management for multichannel inputs. It is an analog-only preamp.

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post #12518 of 16196 Old 06-18-2018, 07:19 AM
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The Parasound A21 has no trouble driving my brother-in-laws F206's.


I moved from them to bi-amping with ATI AT6000's but I think that AT4000 would be fine single or bi-amped.


- Rich

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post #12519 of 16196 Old 06-18-2018, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
The Parasound A21 has no trouble driving my brother-in-laws F206's.


I moved from them to bi-amping with ATI AT6000's but I think that AT4000 would be fine single or bi-amped.


- Rich
+1 for ATI, I also have a ATI 6000 driving my Revel surround speakers. I'll be adding an AT4000 for the remaining Height channels soon. The ATI amps pair nicely with my ML No. 536 amps.
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post #12520 of 16196 Old 06-18-2018, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by filmnut View Post
Yep, that's what I've been telling people since about 1980. Even sang it in this thread a few months ago. Nobody listens. People hear speaker x at store x on one day, then listen to speaker y a week later at store y, then hear speaker z at a friend's house a week after that, and then go on the internet forums and advise others that x lacks bass, y is the bomb, and z sounds harsh in the treble.

You can get by with A/B/C'ing the speakers if they're all set up in the same room with identical placement on the same day, but if not then you're comparing apples, oranges and pears.
Yep. Competently designed speakers with similar frequency response are going to sound much closer to one another than people realize. So much so that most people lack the experience to hear the differences in the blind (exact placement and level matched). Certainly there will be a very large difference between the same speaker in different rooms. Speakers of course will sound different using various placements in the exact same room as well.

Previously, I would have argued with anyone who would have claimed this ^^ until I experienced it 1st hand many times. In once such experience, I heard an A-B-C-D comparison at Harman at their Northridge facility between 4 different bookshelf speakers. More specifically: Monitor Audio, KEF, B&W, and Revel speakers were being compared in the blind (and I didn't know the speaker brands before I was tested). While I was repeatable (the speakers were randomized and I had to repeat the test), it wasn't exactly easy to totem pole them all. Sure, once I knew what speakers were tested, my ears were able to verify things that I already heard. Like the KEF's and B&W's were more "polite" and the Monitor Audio Silver series that are a little "hot" on the top end. So the polite top end for instance in the blind did correlate to earlier sighted test sessions.

I've listened to thousands of systems over the years. Some times I've heard the same speaker in upwards of 50 different rooms. If someone goes from room to room and tries to ascertain anything worthwhile will normally be meaningless. So my demoing approach is to drag the speakers/gear out to the customers home. Things like dispersion patterns, side woofers, or where the speaker is ported can have interactions with the room and change the overall sound.
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post #12521 of 16196 Old 06-18-2018, 12:34 PM
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Whts your overall budget? I can’t quite get a sense, but feels like your skewed more to the electronics in the electronics:speakers ratio
Was hoping on keeping it around 10 to 12 but if spending more will make a dramatic difference in how the speakers will perform I will.
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post #12522 of 16196 Old 06-18-2018, 01:04 PM
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Are you aware the Parasound P7 has no DSP? No digital decoding and no bass management for multichannel inputs. It is an analog-only preamp.
After reading a lot of posts on this forum I believe I can use the Panasonic player for all of the decoding on CDs and DVDs etc... I was going to buy the OPPO but since they are stopping manufacturing I didn’t want to rely on the release of future updates from them. The Revel sub woofers can use the supplied program to set them up along with the crossover controls on the the front and rear speakers. Let me know if I got any of this wrong. It seems like in this day and age a preamp is all anyone would want as a very good quality media player can do just as good if not better of a job as any of the processors on the market.
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post #12523 of 16196 Old 06-18-2018, 01:29 PM
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The Parasound A21 has no trouble driving my brother-in-laws F206's.


I moved from them to bi-amping with ATI AT6000's but I think that AT4000 would be fine single or bi-amped.


- Rich
How do you compare the Parasounds to the ATI’s?
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post #12524 of 16196 Old 06-18-2018, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by HeavyMetal777 View Post
How do you compare the Parasounds to the ATI’s?

I like the AT6000 & AT4000 amps better than the Parasound's and feel they compete with the JC-1's in sound quality, but not absolute power.
The ATIs seem more up to date and are very smooth, clean power amps. I also appreciate ATI use of breakers instead of fuses in amps.


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post #12525 of 16196 Old 06-18-2018, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by HeavyMetal777 View Post
After reading a lot of posts on this forum I believe I can use the Panasonic player for all of the decoding on CDs and DVDs etc... I was going to buy the OPPO but since they are stopping manufacturing I didn’t want to rely on the release of future updates from them. The Revel sub woofers can use the supplied program to set them up along with the crossover controls on the the front and rear speakers. Let me know if I got any of this wrong. It seems like in this day and age a preamp is all anyone would want as a very good quality media player can do just as good if not better of a job as any of the processors on the market.
What are your plans on other sources and how your system layout will accommodate them? For example, music streaming, video streaming, external cable or satellite connections, HTPC, etc.

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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post #12526 of 16196 Old 06-18-2018, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Spinaker01 View Post
I generally enjoy watching the daily YouTube videos that Paul McGowen of PS Audio does but last week when queried about some speaker choices, he discounted Revel speakers as “not highly resolving”. I had to admit, I found this a bit odd because it’s one of the traits I have come to value in the Revel lineup. I may at times accuse them of being unforgiving but this is generally related to source/room issues. I like that they sound very different with varying source materials which to me, indicates they don’t overwhelm with too much of an over-riding house sound but accurately reflect what’s input to them. They also permit me to identify clearly equipment changes I’ve made upstream. I guess I need to hear the big infinity’s some day. To each his own I guess.

Probably not too surprising given the source.

One is about creating an impression of substance (PS Audio).
The other is about substance (Revel).

Last edited by CruelInventions; 06-18-2018 at 02:16 PM.
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post #12527 of 16196 Old 06-18-2018, 02:09 PM
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Are you aware the Parasound P7 has no DSP? No digital decoding and no bass management for multichannel inputs. It is an analog-only preamp.
That's what I like about it. I do all my processing/EQ in my server. It even has a BD player in it.

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post #12528 of 16196 Old 06-19-2018, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by filmnut View Post
Yep, that's what I've been telling people since about 1980. Even sang it in this thread a few months ago. Nobody listens. People hear speaker x at store x on one day, then listen to speaker y a week later at store y, then hear speaker z at a friend's house a week after that, and then go on the internet forums and advise others that x lacks bass, y is the bomb, and z sounds harsh in the treble.

You can get by with A/B/C'ing the speakers if they're all set up in the same room with identical placement on the same day, but if not then you're comparing apples, oranges and pears.
Since my comments seemed to spur this portion of the discussion I will respond by saying that all of my comments were based solely on the speakers in the exact same room, on the system, with the exact same components, and in the exact same position. It is why I only compared them to each other, and not to what I have at home, or heard elsewhere. The only variable in my demo session was the speaker selection, and my comparison was only relative to other speakers in that room, under identical situations, with fairly close level matching.

So when I mention a "chestiness" in the M126Be, it is only relative to the F208 and F228Be that I listened to under the exact same conditions, and in the same time frame. All I can do is convey what I heard within the context within which I heard them. This says nothing of how they compare to anything outside of what I heard in those two hours of demo.
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post #12529 of 16196 Old 06-19-2018, 06:31 AM
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Probably not too surprising given the source.

One is about creating an impression of substance (PS Audio).
The other is about substance (Revel).
I haven't watched all of those Ask Paul videos but the ones I have left me with the impression that he presents a lot of authoritative conclusions that when examined, use his anecdotes as support. The recent example of a recording engineer listening to his own material on Paul's Infinity IRS speakers as conclusive support for the studio monitor vs. audiophile speaker debate was particularly fallacious.

Life is Lambertian
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post #12530 of 16196 Old 06-19-2018, 09:54 AM
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You can get by with A/B/C'ing the speakers if they're all set up in the same room with identical placement on the same day, but if not then you're comparing apples, oranges and pears.
Can you help me understand what you mean by "identical placement"? It sounds more a concept than a reality. Sure, it's possible to get close but identical is unlikely (outside of perhaps Harman's test facility). Even if speakers appear to be in identical positions, proving that is difficult. Further complicating this is that speaker A might sound best in one position and speaker B in another. And if monitors are in the discussion, stand height gets into the conversation.

Heck I can't even run Anthem's room correction software twice on an unaltered hardware configuration and get identical results. Small variations in mic height, mic angle, mic placement, etc. creep into the result. Close results? Sure. Identical? Not in my experience.

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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post #12531 of 16196 Old 06-19-2018, 10:44 AM
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Can you help me understand what you mean by "identical placement"? It sounds more a concept than a reality. Sure, it's possible to get close but identical is unlikely (outside of perhaps Harman's test facility). Even if speakers appear to be in identical positions, proving that is difficult. Further complicating this is that speaker A might sound best in one position and speaker B in another. And if monitors are in the discussion, stand height gets into the conversation.
I agree, it can be challenging, and the issues you raised serve to underscore my point that even small differences in setup can result in an unfair test.

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Heck I can't even run Anthem's room correction software twice on an unaltered hardware configuration and get identical results. Small variations in mic height, mic angle, mic placement, etc. creep into the result. Close results? Sure. Identical? Not in my experience.
I agree again, and because of this I'm extremely wary of using any kind of room correction in my systems. In the best case (below transition frequency only) they can result in an improvement, but Revel has gone to enormous expense and effort to produce speakers that are as accurate and neutral as can be, and room correction software destroys their frequency response in order to "correct" a faulty room. If one's going to use room correction, they might as well save some money and get a poorly measuring speaker in the first place, since the software's going to "correct" it anyway. I say, make the room as good as it can be (a lot easier than most people seem to think) and leave the speakers alone.
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post #12532 of 16196 Old 06-19-2018, 10:45 AM
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Can you help me understand what you mean by "identical placement"? It sounds more a concept than a reality. Sure, it's possible to get close but identical is unlikely (outside of perhaps Harman's test facility). Even if speakers appear to be in identical positions, proving that is difficult. Further complicating this is that speaker A might sound best in one position and speaker B in another. And if monitors are in the discussion, stand height gets into the conversation.

Heck I can't even run Anthem's room correction software twice on an unaltered hardware configuration and get identical results. Small variations in mic height, mic angle, mic placement, etc. creep into the result. Close results? Sure. Identical? Not in my experience.
Splitting hairs at this point. The amount of time it takes to move speakers to the same location (it's not that hard if you use tape to mark the spot and use a tape measure to get measurements from walls etc) negates any real A/B comparisons. Our aural memory is not long enough to remember what speaker A sounded like by the time we hear speaker B.

The Harman MLL is the best way to do speaker comparisons that are valid. John Schuermann set up a a similar double blind scenario to compare the JBL M2 and Revel Salon2. He used human power to move the speakers as quickly as possible. Took a lot of time and effort, but not as much expense as the Harman lab.
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post #12533 of 16196 Old 06-19-2018, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by filmnut View Post
I agree again, and because of this I'm extremely wary of using any kind of room correction in my systems. In the best case (below transition frequency only) they can result in an improvement, but Revel has gone to enormous expense and effort to produce speakers that are as accurate and neutral as can be, and room correction software destroys their frequency response in order to "correct" a faulty room. If one's going to use room correction, they might as well save some money and get a poorly measuring speaker in the first place, since the software's going to "correct" it anyway. I say, make the room as good as it can be (a lot easier than most people seem to think) and leave the speakers alone.
Mostly in agreement, I believe. Correcting the room is the first step. That's a huge advantage with a dedicated room. In a shared space -- my family room, for example -- compromises are part of the equation. I'd like to do a bit more treatment but alas, there is no WAF for that.

As for getting poorly measuring speakers, I disagree for a couple of reasons. First, my old speakers had soft dome tweeters -- an ice pick in the ear for sure, even with RC. They also had poor dispersion characteristics, so you chose your seat carefully. Second, getting better speakers doesn't help with just those speaker limitations: it also positions you for a time in the future when more acoustic treatment and maybe even a dedicated room become possible.

I agree that judicious use of RC is important. A great looking curve doesn't necessarily mean happy ears.

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.

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post #12534 of 16196 Old 06-20-2018, 12:51 PM
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Room correction won't compensate for a bad speaker, and for that matter cannot completely correct for the room. Too many variables, too hard to isolate parameters. And even basic stuff can mess you up; if the mic happens to sit in a null, and RC tries to boost that frequency, it will be over-emphasized anyplace else in the room (and similarly for a peak; knocking it down at the mic's position may leave a hole a few inches or feet away).
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post #12535 of 16196 Old 06-20-2018, 01:04 PM
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Room correction won't compensate for a bad speaker, and for that matter cannot completely correct for the room. Too many variables, too hard to isolate parameters. And even basic stuff can mess you up; if the mic happens to sit in a null, and RC tries to boost that frequency, it will be over-emphasized anyplace else in the room (and similarly for a peak; knocking it down at the mic's position may leave a hole a few inches or feet away).

It would be great if you could buy inexpensive speakers with poor response and make them sound great in your room with EQ. Don't think anyone has made that work yet.
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post #12536 of 16196 Old 06-20-2018, 01:06 PM
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Just FYI for all those who helped my quest for replacement speakers: I decided (somewhat reluctantly) to pass my Infinity Alpha system to my son for his new apartment (Alpha 50's with matching center and 12" Infinity sub). I am getting a pair of F206's and a C205 to replace them (sub will come later, another Rythmik is the obvious choice). The Revel's will be in walnut, a better match to the oak furniture than the black/silver Infinities, and I have a decent amplifier to drive them (Emotiva XPA-3, Gen1; the AVR in the family room is what caused me to buy an amplifier originally -- usually I do not bother, but in this case will do a better job on the Revels in a fairly large room and is already in place, so I'll keep it). F208's would be too big and not really needed; I would have liked the C208, but again a little too big for where it is going. At least when physical dimensions limit the size it obviates the desire to upgrade to something like Salon2's (talk about overkill...)

Shoot, I might even listen more in the family room now, though usually my wife is watching some old black-and-white movie that probably has mono sound.

Thanks all - Don
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post #12537 of 16196 Old 06-20-2018, 01:16 PM
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It would be great if you could buy inexpensive speakers with poor response and make them sound great in your room with EQ. Don't think anyone has made that work yet.
Yah I really wanted to turn my old Logitech 2" computer speakers into Salon2's but it did not end well...

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post #12538 of 16196 Old 06-20-2018, 05:52 PM
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What are your plans on other sources and how your system layout will accommodate them? For example, music streaming, video streaming, external cable or satellite connections, HTPC, etc.
I will be running a cable TV box, record player, dvd/cd player and a computer to stream music from tidal.

Wow, I thought I had my choices narrowed down to the three companies that would give me a really good quality product within my budget. I appreciate the input from everyone and the private messages as now it looks like I am going to purchase a ATI 6007 amp that will drive my entire system with 300 clean and quiet watts. Lexicon MC 10 amp I believe will do all the processing.
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post #12539 of 16196 Old 06-21-2018, 03:40 AM
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-According to my dealer.......I was also told that the F228Be is back ordered until late August, at this point.
Has anyone actually received the f228Be? At all?
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post #12540 of 16196 Old 06-21-2018, 04:01 AM
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Has anyone actually received the f228Be? At all?


yup - My Black 228be
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