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post #12721 of 16513 Old 07-06-2018, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Maybe I missed it but what preamp do you have?
Ayre K-1xe with built in phono stage. An old unit, but I love it!
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post #12722 of 16513 Old 07-06-2018, 02:22 PM
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I agree with your reasonable approach but do not think this business is worth all the words spent on it.

I have two systems. In one, each "pair" (FR/FL+C and SR/SL) use identical type/length cables. In the other, each speaker gets no more cable length than is needed to reach it from the 5channel power amp (from 6' to 40") and, thus, each of the 5 cables is of different length although of identical type. Over the years, there have been no observable consequences.
Kal, thanks for sharing your insights & experience with this. I should probably just keep things as they are. Unfortunately, with guidance from this thread and from Revel in hand, I'll likely be obsessing about this until it's addressed. Maybe bourbon therapy is a better way to go.
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post #12723 of 16513 Old 07-06-2018, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
Kal, thanks for sharing your insights & experience with this. I should probably just keep things as they are. Unfortunately, with guidance from this thread and from Revel in hand, I'll likely be obsessing about this until it's addressed. Maybe bourbon therapy is a better way to go.
Works for me.
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post #12724 of 16513 Old 07-06-2018, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Works for me.
And for me. Do you have any audio-advantageous bourbons to recommend? I find single-malt scotches to be beneficial to tighter bass and more precise soundstaging, but a very good red wine is an almost universal benevolent influence :-)

As for the length of speaker wire, signals travel at the speed of light, not sound, so timing errors are non existent. Wire resistance interacts with speaker impedance variations to cause amplitude response changes, but if 12 gauge or larger wire is used within a domestic room these variations are very small with typical loudspeakers, and probably smaller than production variations within most speaker pairs.

So, relax and enjoy the music.
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post #12725 of 16513 Old 07-06-2018, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
And for me. Do you have any audio-advantageous bourbons to recommend? I find single-malt scotches to be beneficial to tighter bass and more precise soundstaging, but a very good red wine is an almost universal benevolent influence :-)
Most of my bourbon drinking is of good but not exotic types except on rare occasions. (My son-in-law is a serious collector.) OTOH, while imbibing while listening is fine and enjoyable, I am generally reminded of my experience back when I was building speakers and before I acquired any useful electronic measurement technology. Tweaking by ear was fickle except for one consistent observation. Any adjustments I made one day would be reversed immediately on the next if the adjustments were made under the influence of even a single take of wine or liquor. Adjustments made when stone-cold sober usually stayed. Of course, the conclusion of this whole process was that I sold what I had built (and stopped building them for others) and switched over to buying speakers and enjoying them, with or without adjuvants.

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So, relax and enjoy the music.
Wise advice.

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post #12726 of 16513 Old 07-06-2018, 05:00 PM
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I am answering some questions on another forum for guitar players who have home studios and could use some help.

"I am sitting about 30 inches from my monitors when I listen. With just a little treatment on the back wall I'm hearing mostly direct sound. Why should I care about off axis response?"

He doesn't say what speakers he's using or how big they are. I think sitting that close to a speaker one would hear individual drivers unless it is a small cabinet.

@avkv and @Floyd Toole , please let me know your thoughts. And of course, everyone else is welcome to chime in.

Also curious, what is the distance from the speaker to the listener in the Harman MLL? Does it vary depending on the size of the speaker?

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post #12727 of 16513 Old 07-06-2018, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I am answering some questions on another forum for guitar players who have home studios and could use some help.

"I am sitting about 30 inches from my monitors when I listen. With just a little treatment on the back wall I'm hearing mostly direct sound. Why should I care about off axis response?"

He doesn't say what speakers he's using or how big they are.

@avkv and @Floyd Toole , please let me know your thoughts. And of course, everyone else is welcome to chime in.

Also curious, what is the distance from the speaker to the listener in the Harman MLL? Does it vary depending on the size of the speaker?
IMO off axis is much less a concern in a nearfield environment like that. Listening window is still important as people move their heads around forward back and side-to-side.

You can clearly see in measurements taken from a nearfield listening location that the response is pretty devoid of any reflections save the desk, and hence the FR is nice and flat if the speaker is nice and flat.

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post #12728 of 16513 Old 07-06-2018, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I am answering some questions on another forum for guitar players who have home studios and could use some help.

"I am sitting about 30 inches from my monitors when I listen. With just a little treatment on the back wall I'm hearing mostly direct sound. Why should I care about off axis response?"

He doesn't say what speakers he's using or how big they are. I think sitting that close to a speaker one would hear individual drivers unless it is a small cabinet.

@avkv and @Floyd Toole , please let me know your thoughts. And of course, everyone else is welcome to chime in.

Also curious, what is the distance from the speaker to the listener in the Harman MLL? Does it vary depending on the size of the speaker?
If they are indeed monitors then 30" is probably plenty of distance. And as previously stated reflections are not much of a concern for near-field listening, though many of us add pads (thick felt or whatever) to help kill the reflections from the mixing console and/or desk. But, small studio sound rooms typically treat the first reflection points mixing rooms might not, and then good off-axis response becomes important. If he is using them near-field and there are no walls nearby then he'll probably be OK. I.e. a desk in the middle of the room may be fine but if it is shoved in a corner then reflections may play a part.

I cannot speak for Harman, but in general the number and spacing of the drivers in the speaker system is one significant parameter in how closely to a speaker you can sit. You need enough distance for the individual drivers to "congeal" into a cohesive wavefront. The usual gross example is put your ear right next to the tweeter or woofer in a tower system and notice how the sound changes when you move back a few feet. Monitors are normally small and designed to provide a cohesive wavefront at a distance of maybe a foot or three vs. six to eight feet away. Larger monitors are used in larger rooms where they can be placed far enough away to sound good. Nobody is going to put a pair of Salon2's on their desk. At least, I don't think so...

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Edit: What Nyal said, of course!

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post #12729 of 16513 Old 07-06-2018, 07:24 PM
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it must suck having to sit 30" away from any speaker...any testing done on what the optimal distance is with lets say 300 watts? or can you change that variable to feet?

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post #12730 of 16513 Old 07-06-2018, 07:27 PM
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They are monitors for mixing in a studio environment, typically placed on a shelf above the mixing console, and are designed to be used that way. They are used in the recording process to create the CD (or movie, or whatever) and not normally used for home systems (though could be, at a longer range). And if you want to remain a sound engineer you aren't going to be driving 300 W through them.

I wonder how the M126Be's would work for monitoring/mastering?
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post #12731 of 16513 Old 07-06-2018, 07:30 PM
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well this must be coc...as noody except the engineers listen at 30"

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post #12732 of 16513 Old 07-06-2018, 08:46 PM
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You can monitor recordings with an Auratone at a very close distance. Doesn't mean it will tell you much, no low or high end. Guys recording at home do what they can within the parameters of their budget and room size. I worked in what I considered small control rooms at a distance of 5' feet with 8" monitors. Meyer HD-1's sounded pretty darn good and had reasonably good low end and great high end (silk dome tweeter).

What are the recommendations for folks who have to deal with limited space but a good budget? I assume flat on axis response is still important. What speaker design would have good on axis response but poor off axis response? I see a lot of ribbon tweeters. I didn't like them but they are popular. What about all the very expensive studio monitors that don't publish measurement data? Can you use Revel for professional studio monitors? Can they handle that punishing environment? Would hate to blow a Be tweeter....

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post #12733 of 16513 Old 07-06-2018, 09:02 PM
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I know some hvy metal guys that use focal active monitors but thats not a great selling point to me....

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post #12734 of 16513 Old 07-07-2018, 09:22 AM
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And for me. Do you have any audio-advantageous bourbons to recommend?
If you can find them, Pappy Van Winkle, Antique Weller and Blanton's are excellent for lowering obsession thresholds, thereby improving all aspects of sound quality. In appropriate portions, they also optimize speaker placement.

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... a very good red wine is an almost universal benevolent influence :-)
Absolutely. Slowing sipping that last glass of wine after supper while listening from the sweet spot is a very good thing. Decanting is an important step here as sediment in the glass degrades sound quality.

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As for the length of speaker wire, signals travel at the speed of light, not sound, so timing errors are non existent. Wire resistance interacts with speaker impedance variations to cause amplitude response changes, but if 12 gauge or larger wire is used within a domestic room these variations are very small with typical loudspeakers, and probably smaller than production variations within most speaker pairs.
Oddly enough, my system has 10 AWG throughout. The SL/SR runs were long and I was obsessing about that (there's a theme there), so higher gauge won. It was a bulk cable purchase and there was enough left over to wire the front 3 with the same product.

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So, relax and enjoy the music.
This is a work in progress. There seems to be a tendency by some of us in this hobby / madness to get stuck in the optimization phase. While I enjoy the music, there's an ongoing drive to push performance as high as possible with the deployed gear, and that has produced surprising performance improvements, which in turn drives that obsession. The ROI is diminishing so perhaps the finish line is near. That, and my wife is threatening to hit me with a Thorazine dart to slow me down.
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post #12735 of 16513 Old 07-07-2018, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
If you can find them, Pappy Van Winkle, Antique Weller and Blanton's are excellent for lowering obsession thresholds, thereby improving all aspects of sound quality. In appropriate portions, they also optimize speaker placement.
Wait, you think Pappy LOWERS obsession thresholds? Some of my friends that drink it are obsessed by just getting it, and staying on the waiting list for it, or finding the best vintages of it.

Personally I find Scotch and Irish whiskey to be most beneficial for midrange enjoyment, brining out the flavors and subtleties in voices and acoustic instruments, Lagavulin 16, Talisker 10, Redbreast 12 and Laphroig Quarter Cask being some of my current favorites.

Kentucky bourbons seem to make things sound twangy and can encourage my dog to run away. Lately I’ve been enjoying a local bourbon, Breckinridge, which has been showing off the mellow but detailed highs of my Be tweeters.

Tennessee sour mash can be fun with rock and roll and let me appreciate the dynamics of my compression drivers in my SCL-2s.

Japanese whiskeys let me enjoy the complexities of the engineering in a good crossover design, but I don’t know enough about them to recommend any over the rest.

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That, and my wife is threatening to hit me with a Thorazine dart to slow me down.
Does she have a supplier she can PM me? I could use some for my kids.
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post #12736 of 16513 Old 07-07-2018, 10:38 AM
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I just bought the Breckinridge Bourbon but haven’t tried it yet,
Garrison Brothers really brings out the SRV in recordings.

Weller 12 Year is good for serious listening.

Maker’s Mark makes me want to listen to Focal speakers..

Jim Beam, Jack Daniels and Wild Turkey for some good Rock and Roll
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post #12737 of 16513 Old 07-07-2018, 11:11 AM
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We have a saying in the music teaching world (probably not specific to us): "paralysis by analysis". Don't get so caught up in analyzing everything to death and tweaking the grains of sand on a beach that you forget the ocean and why you got the system in the first place.

As a former karate student and teacher, Bruce Lee's famous "finger and the moon" analogy works as well; focus on the moon, not the finger pointing at it.
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post #12738 of 16513 Old 07-07-2018, 11:29 AM
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I cannot speak for Harman, but in general the number and spacing of the drivers in the speaker system is one significant parameter in how closely to a speaker you can sit. You need enough distance for the individual drivers to "congeal" into a cohesive wavefront. !
The laws of physics know no brand boundaries, nor do they change for "monitor" loudspeakers vs. consumer loudspeakers. Figure 10.9 in the Third Edition of my book describes the effect. The "far field" begins when moving the microphone nearer or farther does not change the shape of the measured curve - in other words, the acoustical interference between/among the drivers has been attenuated and the inverse square law is dominant. If there is a nearby reflecting surface, such as a console, it essentially becomes part of the loudspeaker, the "source" is enlarged, and the true far field is moved much farther away. Mixers using small loudspeakers on the meter bridge are always in the near field of the sound source, making what they hear unreliable. Thank your favorite deity for human adaptability and tolerance :-). It is not a "reference" listening situation and it no doubt has an effect on the circle of confusion.
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post #12739 of 16513 Old 07-07-2018, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
I just bought the Breckinridge Bourbon but haven’t tried it yet,
Garrison Brothers really brings out the SRV in recordings.

Weller 12 Year is good for serious listening.

Maker’s Mark makes me want to listen to Focal speakers..

Jim Beam, Jack Daniels and Wild Turkey for some good Rock and Roll
This is a topic for a new forum, and it could include the effects of recreational drugs - even prescription drugs - on what we hear. Since all of these are likely to be highly personal influences, the discussions would be endless . . .

All I can say about our 50 years of psychoacoustic research is that most of the listeners were not influenced by recent doses of booze or drugs, but many would have had coffee
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post #12740 of 16513 Old 07-07-2018, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
This is a topic for a new forum, and it could include the effects of recreational drugs - even prescription drugs - on what we hear. Since all of these are likely to be highly personal influences, the discussions would be endless . . .

All I can say about our 50 years of psychoacoustic research is that most of the listeners were not influenced by recent doses of booze or drugs, but many would have had coffee
Haven’t tried it in coffee..:-p

But really, guessing should post in

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-channel-audio/2971050-my-rig-what-ia-m-listening-what-ia-m-drinking-picture-thread.html
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post #12741 of 16513 Old 07-07-2018, 07:30 PM
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They are monitors for mixing in a studio environment, typically placed on a shelf above the mixing console, and are designed to be used that way. They are used in the recording process to create the CD (or movie, or whatever) and not normally used for home systems (though could be, at a longer range). And if you want to remain a sound engineer you aren't going to be driving 300 W through them.

I wonder how the M126Be's would work for monitoring/mastering?
Revel and JBL pro monitors is the same objectives

Here is a comparative of Revel M105 and a JBL 705i

As you can see very similar with main differences with dispersión
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post #12742 of 16513 Old 07-08-2018, 08:29 AM
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HIGH input terminals preferred?

Page 8 of the Revel F208/206 Owner's Manual has the following curious bit of instruction:

"To make single-wired connections

1. Connect one speaker cable to the desired set of F208 input terminals. (The high-frequency -- "HIGH" -- input terminals are recommended.)"

Since the shorting straps are installed for this kind of connection, why would one input terminal be recommended over the other? It seems like it should make no difference.


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post #12743 of 16513 Old 07-08-2018, 08:59 AM
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Since the shorting straps are installed for this kind of connection, why would one input terminal be recommended over the other? It seems like it should make no difference.
Possibly to make it easier for the user to notice a poor connection when otherwise only the HF would be effected.

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post #12744 of 16513 Old 07-08-2018, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
Page 8 of the Revel F208/206 Owner's Manual has the following curious bit of instruction:



"To make single-wired connections



1. Connect one speaker cable to the desired set of F208 input terminals. (The high-frequency -- "HIGH" -- input terminals are recommended.)"



Since the shorting straps are installed for this kind of connection, why would one input terminal be recommended over the other? It seems like it should make no difference.


That seems to be the recommendation from several OEMs, not sure why. The other, word of mouth recommendation is to connect one to the tweeter/mid (say the positive) and the other to woofer (then negative).


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post #12745 of 16513 Old 07-09-2018, 07:12 AM
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^I've reached out to Revel for some clarification and will post their reply.


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post #12746 of 16513 Old 07-09-2018, 01:44 PM
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^Harman's reply:

"You ask an excellent question.

The most accurate sound we have found comes mainly from the mids/high (the fidelity, nuances, low level detail etc).

Essentially, Bi-Wiring can sometimes provided increased sonic performance, due to the fact that identical power is now going to the the mids/highs as well as the lows.

In any event, either wiring method is completely fine."


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post #12747 of 16513 Old 07-09-2018, 06:17 PM
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Just sharing an update on my M126Bes. I’ve moved out the Sonus Faber Venere’s from behind the Bes, and have been playing with placement quite a bit. I tend to sit a bit further back than an equilateral triangle. Currently the speakers are 9’ from the listening position, 7’4” apart from each other and, (sorry for switching measurement standards here) the front baffles nearest edge to the front wall is 90cm with toe in aiming the speakers at just behind my ears. The further corner of the front baffle is 95cm from the front wall.

Moving them closer to the front wall necessitated playing with the LPF/HPFs in my Parasound HINT. I currently have them crossed over at 100Hz, a bit higher than I normally like but the dual subs are almost exactly behind the speakers, and the blending is pretty seemless. Listing to upright bass in some acoustic jazz and old Johnny Cash songs, I’m not hearing any holes in the playback.

The soundstage is very wide and deep, with excellent image placement side-to-side and front-to-back, and image height is very good. Also, combined even with my two small JL D108’s, these things sound huge. They definitely can rock Black Sabbath and then turn around and pay proper respect to a piano concerto.

Overall I’m pretty darn happy, but I’m noticing a little hardness on some male vocals. It’s probably due to my room (high ceilings, hard surfaces, wood floors, and minimal, ok one, acoustic treatment beyond a wool rug). I think I’ll explore Integrated amps with room correction, either Anthem’s STR or a Lyngdorf TDAI. Though that’ll be next year most likely.
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Last edited by Snowmanick; 07-09-2018 at 10:32 PM.
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post #12748 of 16513 Old 07-09-2018, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
I’m noticing a little hardness on some male vocals.
Could just be the recordings. The more truthful the speakers, the more you discover the recording qualities have flaws.

When I worked as a recording engineer, I had to choose mics and then EQ them to get the sound on the recording. Good chance there is a host of other processing on the vocal track too, most likely compression, delay and reverb.

Anything in the signal chain can affect the quality of the voice or instrument being recorded. If the engineer was using speakers with flaws in a room without good acoustic treatment, he may have done too much EQ or other processing that affected what you're hearing.
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Last edited by Rex Anderson; 07-09-2018 at 06:41 PM.
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post #12749 of 16513 Old 07-09-2018, 07:32 PM
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^^^ I'd suspect the recording and the room, not necessarily in that order, for the harshness. Room correction may or may not help depending upon the root cause. If you do not hear harshness around the same frequencies from other recordings then I would suspect the recording(s).

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #12750 of 16513 Old 07-09-2018, 08:20 PM
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Harshness is not something that should be caused or accentuated by room acoustics. It's most likely the speaker or the recording. Seriously doubt it's the speaker.

"Harsh" is found at frequencies in the 1.5 to 4 kHz region or so. Sibilance is in the 5kHz – 9kHz range.

Even if the room is accentuating some high end (not enough high frequency absorption in the room), you generally don't want to try to EQ that out of your speaker with room correction, it's too far above the Schroeder frequency.

Last edited by Rex Anderson; 07-09-2018 at 09:27 PM.
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