Revel Owners Thread - Page 452 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13531 of 15579 Old 08-28-2018, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
One other thing to do before spending a lot of time trying to optimize the Salon2's full range, is high pass them @ 80Hz and see what your room look like. Use your subs below 80 and move them around.
Ultimately, I know this is the answer. However, I don't have an immediate solution handy to HPF the Salon 2. I'm hoping to get solid enough response from the Salon 2 down to 40 hz such that, for music, my subwoofers only need to play the ultra-low fill duty. I'm not ready to give up.

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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
What are the dimensions of your room? Is it open or closed? Do you have (a) subwoofer(s)?
Main room is 14.5' x 19.5' and its' open on the back right side into the rest of the downstairs area. Part of why I want to avoid adding a lot of expensive treatment right now is that we are going to remodel downstairs and those room dimensions are going to end up sealed.

I do have subwoofers. I want to get the best possible response from the Salon 2 before I integrate the subwoofers.

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post #13532 of 15579 Old 08-28-2018, 06:13 PM
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Dr. Toole,

You have to decide : Did the NS10M sounded so dreadful because of their goal of flat power response? Because of the big woofer size for a two-way design? Or both?


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A pulsating dome may be omnidirectional, but a rigid one cannot be. At wavelengths approaching and above the diameter they beam and, depending on the shape of the dome and the behavior of its surround, there may be interference effects. Again, don't trust me, look at the data.
But I always trust in the man who brings reliable data!

"In God we Trust, all others must bring data” W. Edwards Deming



However, you have to agree that, as far as transducer behaviour is concerned, a dome midrange of sensible size and shape will always better resemble a tweeter dome than a cone of the same radiation area as the former is able to, all other things being equal.

The problem with domes is that once they start to exhibit breakup modes there's no way to control it, as opposed to cones. That's the reason why beryllium is used here at such great effect, because being as rigid as it is, it can assure perfect pistonic behaviour for an extended frequency range.

I guess that's the reason why Focal started to use the so-called inverted dome tweeter and then they just applied their long standing technology to beryllium. It's my belief that with beryllium they wouldn't have need inverted domes in the first place...


One must admit that, the single most important progress in the loudspeakers design in the past 15 years has been the materials technology used in transducer manufacturing, greatly influenced by the increasing sophistication in software simulation.

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post #13533 of 15579 Old 08-28-2018, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by NullTest View Post
Dr. Toole,

You have to decide : Did the NS10M sounded so dreadful because of their goal of flat power response? Because of the big woofer size for a two-way design? Or both?

.
I explained it in Figure 12.10. It is both. The size disparity at crossover creates a directivity index discontinuity. As you know, I'm sure, DI is the difference between on-axis and sound power curves. As the figure shows, if you design for flat on axis the sound power is not flat. If you design for flat sound power the on axis is not flat. You cannot have both. It turns out that the direct sound is the dominant factor in sound quality, so the sound power target loses. But, the flawed off axis performance is still heard in normally reflective rooms and such loudspeakers lose to those with a close relationship between on- and off-axis performance.

The answer to cones vs. domes ultimately comes down to which is able to deliver a better - closer - relationship between on and off axis sound radiation. The spinorama data presentation reveals it immediately.

As for the most significant technical advance in transducers - my transducer design colleagues have told my many times that it is adhesives. When you enter the power test room and voice coils are glowing cherry red and paint on magnets is bubbling it seems simply miraculous that the speakers work at all after days and days of such abuse. But they do.

All of this and more is in my book. I'm done here for now, bye. :-)
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post #13534 of 15579 Old 08-28-2018, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
I explained it in Figure 12.10. It is both. The size disparity at crossover creates a directivity index discontinuity. As you know, I'm sure, DI is the difference between on-axis and sound power curves. As the figure shows, if you design for flat on axis the sound power is not flat. If you design for flat sound power the on axis is not flat. You cannot have both. It turns out that the direct sound is the dominant factor in sound quality, so the sound power target loses. But, the flawed off axis performance is still heard in normally reflective rooms and such loudspeakers lose to those with a close relationship between on- and off-axis performance.

The answer to cones vs. domes ultimately comes down to which is able to deliver a better - closer - relationship between on and off axis sound radiation. The spinorama data presentation reveals it immediately.

As for the most significant technical advance in transducers - my transducer design colleagues have told my many times that it is adhesives. When you enter the power test room and voice coils are glowing cherry red and paint on magnets is bubbling it seems simply miraculous that the speakers work at all after days and days of such abuse. But they do.

All of this and more is in my book. I'm done here for now, bye. :-)

Post of the century.
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post #13535 of 15579 Old 08-28-2018, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
The answer to cones vs. domes ultimately comes down to which is able to deliver a better - closer - relationship between on and off axis sound radiation. The spinorama data presentation reveals it immediately.

The problem is that above a certain size, domes are much more difficult to make right. What does the data say?





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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post

As for the most significant technical advance in transducers - my transducer design colleagues have told my many times that it is adhesives. When you enter the power test room and voice coils are glowing cherry red and paint on magnets is bubbling it seems simply miraculous that the speakers work at all after days and days of such abuse. But they do.

LOL!
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post #13536 of 15579 Old 08-28-2018, 07:54 PM
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How does the Magico get such good off axis integration with tweeter and 6” midrange in the S5? No waveguide. NRC data:

At soundstage. Can’t post link yet.
Off axis the Magico S5 has a dip in response at 2.5 kHz which is the crossover frequency between the midrange and the tweeter. See Chart B in the link below.

https://www.soundstage.com/index.php...nts&Itemid=153

Of course the dip isn't as pronounced as in Chart B here:

https://www.soundstage.com/index.php...nts&Itemid=153

In the good old days, Harman could make a $1.5k, 3-way speaker with measurements like this:

https://www.soundstage.com/measureme..._concerta_f12/

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...r-measurements Well OK, at dip in John Atkinson's measurements at 2 kHz, but otherwise really smooth off axis.

Not as good as this one however:

https://www.soundstage.com/measureme...ultima_salon2/
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post #13537 of 15579 Old 08-28-2018, 07:55 PM
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Thanks @Floyd Toole appreciate it- I will add your book to my reading list


For Salon2 owners, you should try to passive bi-amp the speakers as @RichB mentioned in his review- to my subjective ears it made a positive difference (of course you have to weigh in if 2x amp channel is worth $$ difference or not).

Regards,
Kishore
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post #13538 of 15579 Old 08-28-2018, 08:37 PM
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Can't answer your question. However, i have listened to the Magico's and thought they were as good as speakers that list for at least 10% the cost of Magico.
10x or 10%? And which speakers were you thinking of?
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post #13539 of 15579 Old 08-28-2018, 08:55 PM
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I want to get the best possible response from the Salon 2 before I integrate the subwoofers.
Since you have REW, you'll probably want to use EQ to achieve a flat bass response, in which case it will not be necessary or even ideal to aim for good response from speakers alone before going for good response from speakers + subwoofer. EQ can fix peaks but not nulls (by too much), so your ideal response is to have as much output with as few nulls as possible. You won't know exactly what the nulls are until you combine speaker + subwoofer.

Your strategy could be to place the speakers optimally for 100hz+ frequencies, and then locate the subwoofers to fill in nulls below 100hz, and then apply EQ to smooth things out.

From your measurements above it looks like you already have enough output for EQ except maybe 40-60hz.
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post #13540 of 15579 Old 08-28-2018, 09:13 PM
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Since you have REW, you'll probably want to use EQ to achieve a flat bass response, in which case it will not be necessary or even ideal to aim for good response from speakers alone before going for good response from speakers + subwoofer. EQ can fix peaks but not nulls (by too much), so your ideal response is to have as much output with as few nulls as possible. You won't know exactly what the nulls are until you combine speaker + subwoofer.
My understanding is that this is partially correct. I suspect that I'm getting that dip (probably not deep enough to be considered a true null) due to comb filtering induced by what I guess are rear-wall reflections. While it's true that I can't EQ my way out of it, I may not be able to "subwoofer my way out" of it either. I don't want to apply EQ until I understand the cause. If I can get to better response in that 40-60hz range, I'd be very comfortable applying some EQ. My worry is that I'm already seeing strong resonance at the lower frequencies below 40hz and adding the subwoofers is going to make that problem worse. I will almost certainly need to apply EQ; but, I'll probably start with some treatment first to see if I can tame those resonances.

At the moment, I have no system for EQ available to me. Unfortunately, most MiniDSP products are not compatible with my McIntosh preamp due to the far higher voltage on the balanced outputs than most of the MiniDSP kits can handle. Most things that are compatible come with a high price tag.

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post #13541 of 15579 Old 08-28-2018, 09:23 PM
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My worry is that I'm already seeing strong resonance at the lower frequencies below 40hz and adding the subwoofers is going to make that problem worse. I will almost certainly need to apply EQ; but, I'll probably start with some treatment first to see if I can tame those resonances.
Room mode resonances are minimum phase, so equalizing them in the frequency domain also fixes the time domain. You'll find this discussed in the book when it arrives.

If your source is a computer, you have many options for dsp, such as EqualizerAPO or JRiver Media Center.
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post #13542 of 15579 Old 08-28-2018, 09:42 PM
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If your source is a computer, you have many options for dsp, such as EqualizerAPO or JRiver Media Center.
Multiple sources including a turntable.

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post #13543 of 15579 Old 08-29-2018, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by nalthien View Post
I do have subwoofers. I want to get the best possible response from the Salon 2 before I integrate the subwoofers.
Perfect, then forget about dealing with the response in the subwoofer region, like 40 Hz nulls. Proper sub placement and integration will take care of that independent of the mains and save you a lot of grief and wasted time. Your goal IME/IMO should be to get the mains optimized in the region above the subwoofer range, perhaps 60 to 80 Hz and above, and then deal with subwoofer placement and integration.

FWIWFM - Don

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Originally Posted by nalthien View Post
I'm already seeing strong resonance at the lower frequencies below 40hz and adding the subwoofers is going to make that problem worse. I will almost certainly need to apply EQ; but, I'll probably start with some treatment first to see if I can tame those resonances.
If you are planning to add subwoofers - more than one please: two or four - they will interact with the 40 Hz mode very differently from your present speakers. Acoustical treatment - bass traps - that are effective at 40 Hz are very large devices - certainly larger and more expensive than many products promoted as "bass traps/absorbers" that actually do little or nothing at such low frequencies. Chapter 8 explains.

Good luck.
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post #13545 of 15579 Old 08-29-2018, 06:27 PM
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Perfect, then forget about dealing with the response in the subwoofer region, like 40 Hz nulls. Proper sub placement and integration will take care of that independent of the mains and save you a lot of grief and wasted time. Your goal IME/IMO should be to get the mains optimized in the region above the subwoofer range, perhaps 60 to 80 Hz and above, and then deal with subwoofer placement and integration.

FWIWFM - Don

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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
If you are planning to add subwoofers - more than one please: two or four - they will interact with the 40 Hz mode very differently from your present speakers. Acoustical treatment - bass traps - that are effective at 40 Hz are very large devices - certainly larger and more expensive than many products promoted as "bass traps/absorbers" that actually do little or nothing at such low frequencies. Chapter 8 explains.

Good luck.
OK! OK! I get it! I was really hoping to dial in the speakers a bit more successfully; but, I understand. My main concern is that I don't have any system to HPF the speakers right now.

And yes, I have two subwoofers.

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post #13546 of 15579 Old 08-29-2018, 06:31 PM
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Also..I'm not to chapter 8 in your book yet! It just arrived yesterday and I had a busy evening. I managed to get through the introduction and a fair amount of chapter 1.

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post #13547 of 15579 Old 08-29-2018, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by nalthien View Post
OK! OK! I get it! I was really hoping to dial in the speakers a bit more successfully; but, I understand. My main concern is that I don't have any system to HPF the speakers right now.

And yes, I have two subwoofers.

Since you have a preamp and separate power amplifier there are many options for line-level crossovers, such as:
miniDSP (inexpensive DSP-based products)
dbx 223 (analog, Linkwitz-Riley professional crossover)
Marchand Electronics (passive and active crossovers)
Bryston 10B-sub (very nice, pricey)
Etc.

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post #13548 of 15579 Old 08-29-2018, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Kishore View Post
Thanks @Floyd Toole appreciate it- I will add your book to my reading list


For Salon2 owners, you should try to passive bi-amp the speakers as @RichB mentioned in his review- to my subjective ears it made a positive difference (of course you have to weigh in if 2x amp channel is worth $$ difference or not).

Regards,
Kishore

Where is this review located ?

Thanks
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post #13549 of 15579 Old 08-29-2018, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Since you have a preamp and separate power amplifier there are many options for line-level crossovers, such as:
miniDSP (inexpensive DSP-based products)
dbx 223 (analog, Linkwitz-Riley professional crossover)
Marchand Electronics (passive and active crossovers)
Bryston 10B-sub (very nice, pricey)
Etc.
Yup. There's also the McIntosh MEN220 which has both the crossover elements as well as Lyngdorf RoomPerfect for EQ. Like the Bryston, it's very pricey! I've said earlier in the thread (no worries if you missed it) that miniDSP products don't work for my setup due to output voltage on the McIntosh preamp far exceeding the input voltages on the MiniDSP. Some of their more expensive models support balanced connections and could work.

I think the dbx 223xs is probably a great place to start. I will probably end up with something like a MEN220 or maybe even a Balanced MiniDSP Dirac solution; until then, this will let me integrate more effectively without another big hit to the wallet!

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post #13550 of 15579 Old 08-29-2018, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
If you are planning to add subwoofers - more than one please: two or four - they will interact with the 40 Hz mode very differently from your present speakers.
Dr. Toole, why specifically 2 or 4? Why not 2 to 4, or even (I suppose) >4? (It does get silly after a while, but still.)

I re-read 8.2.6 - 8.2.8, and it seems that adding subwoofers in pairs is assumed without stating any reason to disfavor odd numbers of subwoofers. Can you elaborate?

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post #13551 of 15579 Old 08-29-2018, 07:46 PM
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Where is this review located ?

Thanks

My bad- it is Rich's review of ATI 6000 Amps HERE.



Recommend you try it anyways.



Regards,
Kishore
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post #13552 of 15579 Old 08-29-2018, 07:51 PM
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Also..I'm not to chapter 8 in your book yet! It just arrived yesterday and I had a busy evening. I managed to get through the introduction and a fair amount of chapter 1.
I don't think reading through it like a book is the best approach (IMO). Too many nuggets in there that may not be appreciated unless your reading for a purpose. So just head to chapter 8 and have at it.

@Floyd Toole , I use your work as a "reference manual", more than a "book". Not that I would be so bold as to suggest any titles, but "Sound Reproduction: Master Reference Manual, Vol. 4", has a nice ring to it.
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I don't think reading through it like a book is the best approach (IMO). Too many nuggets in there that may not be appreciated unless your reading for a purpose. So just head to chapter 8 and have at it.
The introduction actually suggests not reading it as a book. However. Chapters 1 and 4 look to be solid overview material that's probably worth reading before diving into the more specialized topics. At least, that's how I read the introductions.

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The introduction actually suggests not reading it as a book. However. Chapters 1 and 4 look to be solid overview material that's probably worth reading before diving into the more specialized topics. At least, that's how I read the introductions.
Actually, I would suggest that "sophisticated" readers start with the last chapter - 18. It summarizes the core theme of the book and adds a lot of juicy measurements on some products older audio folk will recognize. It may be disturbing to a few with strong brand biases.

Why 2 or 4 subs? It came out of Todd Welti's very first investigation in which he examined 1 to 5000!! subs in a room model. It has to do with the axial symmetry required to strongly interact with standing waves and to either amplify or attenuate them. The result was that one was not enough and more than four added little or nothing. Combinations of two or four were most effective in passive rectangular room solutions. In Sound Field Management, a more complicated active process, odd numbers can work, but it helps to start with even numbers. Don't forget that with multiple subs they can be smaller - there is a significant efficiency gain. The availability of competent powered closed box subwoofers at moderate prices is very encouraging.
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post #13555 of 15579 Old 08-29-2018, 08:34 PM
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I don't think reading through it like a book is the best approach (IMO). Too many nuggets in there that may not be appreciated unless your reading for a purpose. So just head to chapter 8 and have at it.

@Floyd Toole , I use your work as a "reference manual", more than a "book". Not that I would be so bold as to suggest any titles, but "Sound Reproduction: Master Reference Manual, Vol. 4", has a nice ring to it.
Believe it or not, your suggested title is close to one that I had considered. "Handbook" and "reference" are magic words to some people, but I have seen so many such books over the years that were nothing but amateurish collections of folklore that I could not stomach the idea. So, I chose a less aggressive title from a marketing perspective. Sigh. But I sleep well at night
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Originally Posted by nalthien View Post
Yup. There's also the McIntosh MEN220 which has both the crossover elements as well as Lyngdorf RoomPerfect for EQ. Like the Bryston, it's very pricey! I've said earlier in the thread (no worries if you missed it) that miniDSP products don't work for my setup due to output voltage on the McIntosh preamp far exceeding the input voltages on the MiniDSP. Some of their more expensive models support balanced connections and could work.

I think the dbx 223xs is probably a great place to start. I will probably end up with something like a MEN220 or maybe even a Balanced MiniDSP Dirac solution; until then, this will let me integrate more effectively without another big hit to the wallet!
I saw the Mac stuff in your sig but forgot to look on their site; I just threw out my normal off-the-cuff list from memory. The dbx unit has been my "go-to" unit for decades. I have also used an ARC (tube) crossover and a variety of DIY designs over the years. But, the dbx is inexpensive, decent quality, and gets the job done. They (and others) make more advanced DSP-based units, as do companies like Rane and Behringer, but for a nice simple solution I always turn to the little dbx analog units.
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post #13557 of 15579 Old 08-29-2018, 08:52 PM
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I saw the Mac stuff in your sig but forgot to look on their site; I just threw out my normal off-the-cuff list from memory. The dbx unit has been my "go-to" unit for decades. I have also used an ARC (tube) crossover and a variety of DIY designs over the years. But, the dbx is inexpensive, decent quality, and gets the job done. They (and others) make more advanced DSP-based units, as do companies like Rane and Behringer, but for a nice simple solution I always turn to the little dbx analog units.
Thanks for sharing your experience; Amazon will have my dbx 223xs delivered on Friday. That'll give me time this weekend to dial-in those subwoofers!

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post #13558 of 15579 Old 08-29-2018, 09:20 PM
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Believe it or not, your suggested title is close to one that I had considered. "Handbook" and "reference" are magic words to some people, but I have seen so many such books over the years that were nothing but amateurish collections of folklore that I could not stomach the idea. So, I chose a less aggressive title from a marketing perspective. Sigh. But I sleep well at night
Well, I'll admit to shameless plugging of my M2 "Master Reference Monitors" in that title. The fact that I could plug it in the Revel thread made it an irresistable suggestion .
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post #13559 of 15579 Old 08-30-2018, 09:41 AM
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Well, I'll admit to shameless plugging of my M2 "Master Reference Monitors" in that title. The fact that I could plug it in the Revel thread made it an irresistable suggestion .
Well I shamelessly, indeed proudly, show M2s, with measurements, on the cover of my book. It is a worthy performance benchmark, along with Revels. Pity that more products in the loudspeaker universe don't perform as well.. The knowledge to do so has existed for decades.
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post #13560 of 15579 Old 08-30-2018, 09:58 AM
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Well I shamelessly, indeed proudly, show M2s, with measurements, on the cover of my book. It is a worthy performance benchmark, along with Revels. Pity that more products in the loudspeaker universe don't perform as well.. The knowledge to do so has existed for decades.

The fact that so many loudspeakers exist that don't perform well given the knowledge to make them do so has existed for decades is a very sad state of affairs for audio professionals and enthusiasts.
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