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post #13771 of 15864 Old 09-21-2018, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post
Hi Guys, what would be a reasonable price/offer for a Concerta2 F35 pair and 2x M16 pairs buying all together at a local dealer? I'm wondering what others here have snagged them for.
If you were at your local dealer and he added value, you should support him. Personally, I won't sell to someone if they have been given local support.

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post #13772 of 15864 Old 09-21-2018, 08:09 AM
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If you were at your local dealer and he added value, you should support him. Personally, I won't sell to someone if they have been given local support.
Same goes for us. When someone reaches out to us, we ask if they have been working with another dealer. We understand folks looking for the best price, but have no desire to take a sale away from someone who is working hard to earn your business.

Price shoppers drive down profit margins. Straight price quoting can start a situation where margins shrink and no one gets to make any money.

We try to be helpful, provide education and develop good working relationships with folks.

I posted a lot of information here long before John asked me to join his team. I discovered Revel loudspeakers and wanted to support their efforts. I have been involved in audio and education since 1974 when I attended the Institute of Audio Research and got my BS degree from the University of Illinois. I spent 34 years working as a recording and live sound engineer, taught classes and trained a lot of people to provide services to our students, faculty and professional musicians who hired us to record CD's and do live sound for their concert productions.

I always liked helping folks learn about audio and how to best enjoy listening to music. I have found the perfect position for me to continue my work now that I'm too old to be crawling on my knees in catwalks to hang microphones and lift massive mixing consoles, huge PA speakers and racks full of power amps. I don't really miss wiring (and rewiring) recording control rooms, spending countless hours setting up PA systems and running hundreds of cables for concerts, but I did enjoy it a lot when I was younger.

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post #13773 of 15864 Old 09-21-2018, 11:35 AM
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Anybody who has been in or around this business for any length of time knows how fickle customers can be. Decades ago, it was mail-order, watching the person you'd spent hours, days, weeks with buying from some mail-order place for often minimal savings. Frustrating does not begin to describe it. Online sales have now made the situation much worse, and overall economic issues and cost of doing business means there are fewer local dealers to patronize. A lot of high-end companies, then and now, simply refuse to support mail-order and online sales so they can maintain a dealer support network. I always support my local dealers if possible, exceptions being when there are none close to visit, or when poor service sends me elsewhere. For example, there are several Revel dealers in the area; one a small shop with outstanding support, one a local chain that managed to thoroughly annoy a friend of mine (who dropped $20k on a pair of B&Ws at a different store as a result) as well as me at different times (but has been helpful to others, maybe a salesman issue), and another one or two I have never visited.

It is a sad, and not at all new, commentary on how little value some people place on another's time, and most consumers do not understand the overhead costs involved in keeping a local shop going. The idea that just any local place can automatically match the low-overhead, large-volume but no-service online businesses is misguided at best and completely devalues the local guy who let you listen, offered advice to help set up and/or complete the system, and often includes extras like home set-up and support beyond the sale that email just doesn't provide.

There is the flip side; service and checkout has gotten so bad at my local Wal-Mart that I use Amazon as much as possible even if I pay a little more. And audio shops, to stay more relevant, often seem have to split into one of two models:

(1) Sell as much as possible, going for volume, and constantly pressure the consumer to "upgrade" and pay for "extras" to boost the bottom line. These places tend to offer little knowledge and tolerate little time for any sort of extended auditioning and comparisons (a few years ago, a friend was comparing a $10k pair of speakers to a $12k pair in two different rooms, and they flat refused to move either pair to the other room so we could compare them -- he bought elsewhere).

(2) Cater to the very high-end crowd, where volumes are low but margins higher. These are likely to judge you when you step in the door; jeans are not advised, and when discussing a couple of speakers in the $20k~$50k range they actually rather snootily (his words) asked a friend if they could run a credit check in the interest of helping him finance the speakers. He took offense and walked out; they probably figured he was just fishing. He had the cash in the bank and gave it to another dealer.

Finding a good old-fashioned dealer is hard these days, or at least it has been for me. I tried several before running across John and crew and have been happy since. There are some great online places as well, that offer advice and such without all the extra b.s., but if you want to hear, see, and touch there's nothing like a good local dealer. The small extra amount you may pay is often much less than the value of their expertise and time.

IME/IMO - Don
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post #13774 of 15864 Old 09-21-2018, 03:28 PM
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Great points from Don who has obviously been around a while (no offense intended, lol).

The thing that has bothered me the most in my 47 years of buying high end and professional audio products is salesmen who lack knowledge and sell snake oil.

I try to do business with knowledgeable people who are not pushing over priced products.

I feel fortunate to have met John Schuermann on this forum and honored that he asked me to help continue his legacy here as someone who values the science of audio, represents quality products and is an ethical business man.
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post #13775 of 15864 Old 09-22-2018, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Great points from Don who has obviously been around a while (no offense intended, lol).

The thing that has bothered me the most in my 47 years of buying high end and professional audio products is salesmen who lack of knowledge and sell snake oil.

I try to do business with knowledgeable people who are not pushing over priced products.

I feel fortunate to have met John Schuermann on this forum and honored that he asked me to help continue his legacy here as someone who values the science of audio, represents quality products and is an ethical business man.
Like many on this forum I have been at this hobby for several years. Without dating myself to much my first "hi end" system was a pair of Bose 901's and a Kenwood 125 wpm receiver and a TT of which I do not remember. Those were brick and mortar day for sure.

Fast forward to when I designed and had build our current HT/audio room here in Vegas. Most everything in the room was done with a local hi end brick and mortar shop here in Vegas. Speakers, cabling etc. I say most as there are a few items that no one in town had at the time we built our room.

Since it was built I have upgraded only a bit as some things simply die. When I could I bought locally. As I could not get my Revel F208's and C208 locally I made my purchase from John at The Screening Room, we had been in communication over a year and the relationship and communication that developed was as if I were dealing with a local friend.

I have been fortunate that I have not had any bad experiences with our local dealers, I believe they do have their customers best interest at heart. A few months age I had an issue with an old signal booster, I went to a local (very high end) dealer explaind my issue and received great advice and was informed what would help my situation at a very reasonable price and then slightly discounted. While there I simply hung out for a while and listened to systems that cost more that it did for me to build a complete room from the ground up. I will say that my purchase ended up being less than $100. So yes buy local when you can, I believe it is good for all.
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post #13776 of 15864 Old 09-22-2018, 01:50 PM
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In my opinion Revel and other quality gear dealers have a problem with the lack of dealers that aren't custom "integrators" only.
I live in the Seattle area which is a fairly large metro area.
There is exactly one dealer with a showroom that carries Revel and they only have Salon2s.

I know that there is a dearth of old school show room dealers in general which doesn't make it easy to listen to anything before buying.
Dealers have do to what is necessary to stay in business and for the last 15 years+ ya gotta be A\V and mostly custom V to stay in business & dealers can't carry everything, obviously.
There are 2 small places left that are Audio only. One specializes in Naim and the other is even smaller and carries very esoteric stuff.

Definitive for years and years carried Revel, Lexicon, Levinson and other Harman products but after the Madrigal debacle they severed all ties with Harman.

 
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post #13777 of 15864 Old 09-22-2018, 03:02 PM
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Not familiar with the Madrigal debacle. Can anyone elaborate?

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post #13778 of 15864 Old 09-22-2018, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Anybody who has been in or around this business for any length of time knows how fickle customers can be. Decades ago, it was mail-order, watching the person you'd spent hours, days, weeks with buying from some mail-order place for often minimal savings. Frustrating does not begin to describe it. Online sales have now made the situation much worse, and overall economic issues and cost of doing business means there are fewer local dealers to patronize. A lot of high-end companies, then and now, simply refuse to support mail-order and online sales so they can maintain a dealer support network. I always support my local dealers if possible, exceptions being when there are none close to visit, or when poor service sends me elsewhere. For example, there are several Revel dealers in the area; one a small shop with outstanding support, one a local chain that managed to thoroughly annoy a friend of mine (who dropped $20k on a pair of B&Ws at a different store as a result) as well as me at different times (but has been helpful to others, maybe a salesman issue), and another one or two I have never visited.

It is a sad, and not at all new, commentary on how little value some people place on another's time, and most consumers do not understand the overhead costs involved in keeping a local shop going. The idea that just any local place can automatically match the low-overhead, large-volume but no-service online businesses is misguided at best and completely devalues the local guy who let you listen, offered advice to help set up and/or complete the system, and often includes extras like home set-up and support beyond the sale that email just doesn't provide.

There is the flip side; service and checkout has gotten so bad at my local Wal-Mart that I use Amazon as much as possible even if I pay a little more. And audio shops, to stay more relevant, often seem have to split into one of two models:

(1) Sell as much as possible, going for volume, and constantly pressure the consumer to "upgrade" and pay for "extras" to boost the bottom line. These places tend to offer little knowledge and tolerate little time for any sort of extended auditioning and comparisons (a few years ago, a friend was comparing a $10k pair of speakers to a $12k pair in two different rooms, and they flat refused to move either pair to the other room so we could compare them -- he bought elsewhere).

(2) Cater to the very high-end crowd, where volumes are low but margins higher. These are likely to judge you when you step in the door; jeans are not advised, and when discussing a couple of speakers in the $20k~$50k range they actually rather snootily (his words) asked a friend if they could run a credit check in the interest of helping him finance the speakers. He took offense and walked out; they probably figured he was just fishing. He had the cash in the bank and gave it to another dealer.

Finding a good old-fashioned dealer is hard these days, or at least it has been for me. I tried several before running across John and crew and have been happy since. There are some great online places as well, that offer advice and such without all the extra b.s., but if you want to hear, see, and touch there's nothing like a good local dealer. The small extra amount you may pay is often much less than the value of their expertise and time.

IME/IMO - Don
When the business model does not align with customer needs both sides suffer. In the current dealer model, all customers pay the same amount whether they need the service/advice or not.

What is needed is a model where customers can pay for service and advice separately if they need it and let the dealer compete effectively with mail order or online shops by providing minimal service.



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post #13779 of 15864 Old 09-22-2018, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
When the business model does not align with customer needs both sides suffer. In the current dealer model, all customers pay the same amount whether they need the service/advice or not.

What is needed is a model where customers can pay for service and advice separately if they need it and let the dealer compete effectively with mail order or online shops by providing minimal service.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Been tried, never worked out AFAIK, but my experience is very limited and mostly second-hand (at least). People expect service from a B&M store and will not pay extra. The same ones who will buy online to save 5 or 10 percent after getting the advice and taking the time to listen and compare in the store. On the dealer side, you have the overhead (capital/inventory, people, building, etc.) whether or not the customer takes advantage of it. The biggest stride in that direction I have seen is the uptick in delivery and setup charges, sometimes two different things now, with those who are willing paying extra for installation and/or calibration with "expert" help.

The flip side is the guy who plumbs the unit, runs the room correction program, tweaks a few things and runs it again to look good, then walks out without really fixing anything or doing more than the customer could on his own with a few minutes' reading the manual and running the cal. But there are those who do bang-up jobs, and there are systems more complex than the average guy can handle (or wants to handle -- I can change out a faucet, but prefer to let the plumber do it as he has the knowledge, skills, and tools to do in an hour what takes me a half-day).

The good news is the death of B&M has been predicted for decades and ain't happened yet. I'm doing my part to keep them around, from my local Revel dealer, to the local diner with food and service much better than the chains.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #13780 of 15864 Old 09-23-2018, 05:38 PM
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To those that own the F208; what integrated amplifier with DAC is good with these speakers? I could also go with separates but would like to keep the budget under $4K. I'll be buying preowned equipment so please consider that when making suggestions.

Thanks all
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post #13781 of 15864 Old 09-23-2018, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by medicaljordan View Post
To those that own the F208; what integrated amplifier with DAC is good with these speakers? I could also go with separates but would like to keep the budget under $4K. I'll be buying preowned equipment so please consider that when making suggestions.

Thanks all
The new Ayre QX-8. Or the QX-5 if you can wing it
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post #13782 of 15864 Old 09-23-2018, 06:36 PM
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Hello, new member and first post. I don't have much AV knowledge so please be gentle. We are a young couple building our first house which will have an upstairs family room. We want to have installed a large screen Samsung TV on the wall, say 75" - 82". We also want Revel in-wall speakers and have chosen Revel W553L for LCR. We want a clean look to this room hence the in-walls. We have tentatively selected an Onkyo TX-RZ820 as the AV receiver. I have two questions:

1. The room on the other side of the TV wall will be unfinished. I understand from reading here that I need to put something on the studs to enclose the stud bays. Since speaker cabinets are made of MDF, I thought about MDF installed on the studs. I can get it in 4'x8' sheets up to an inch thick. Is this a good solution?

2. The rear channel in-wall speakers will have to be installed in the rear wall since the left wall is an exterior wall full of insulation. Should we use two of the same Revel W553L speakers in the rear wall or maybe Revel W563?

Thanks in advance.
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post #13783 of 15864 Old 09-23-2018, 10:49 PM
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Debating a new LCR setup, either M105 + C208 or M126BE + C208. Are the C208s going to be timbre matched with the M126BEs for movies? And if not, is there a beryllium C208 on the horizon?
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post #13784 of 15864 Old 09-24-2018, 05:45 AM
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Debating a new LCR setup, either M105 + C208 or M126BE + C208. Are the C208s going to be timbre matched with the M126BEs for movies? And if not, is there a beryllium C208 on the horizon?
Yes. The Revel line is matched top to bottom, though of course there will be some variances.

Not at the moment but folk keep hoping...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #13785 of 15864 Old 09-24-2018, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Revel just updated to B112 v2


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP1-9nZSlcA
Anyone demo these yet? I’m in market to get 2 subs and considering these. I have all Revel speakers, F208 and C208 in front and S16 sides, C763 ceiling. A couple old JBL 2241H 18” subs.
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post #13786 of 15864 Old 09-24-2018, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Been tried, never worked out AFAIK, but my experience is very limited and mostly second-hand (at least). People expect service from a B&M store and will not pay extra. The same ones who will buy online to save 5 or 10 percent after getting the advice and taking the time to listen and compare in the store. On the dealer side, you have the overhead (capital/inventory, people, building, etc.) whether or not the customer takes advantage of it. The biggest stride in that direction I have seen is the uptick in delivery and setup charges, sometimes two different things now, with those who are willing paying extra for installation and/or calibration with "expert" help.

The flip side is the guy who plumbs the unit, runs the room correction program, tweaks a few things and runs it again to look good, then walks out without really fixing anything or doing more than the customer could on his own with a few minutes' reading the manual and running the cal. But there are those who do bang-up jobs, and there are systems more complex than the average guy can handle (or wants to handle -- I can change out a faucet, but prefer to let the plumber do it as he has the knowledge, skills, and tools to do in an hour what takes me a half-day).

The good news is the death of B&M has been predicted for decades and ain't happened yet. I'm doing my part to keep them around, from my local Revel dealer, to the local diner with food and service much better than the chains.

I don't go into brick and mortar stores because I'm not going to buy from the store. That way I don't waste their time. Somehow that seems fair.

Shows like CEDIA, RMAF, etc. are good for actually seeing equipment, although not conducting any sort of listening tests of course.

I agree with you on plumbing. It's nice to get it done right, and without a dozen trips to Home Depot. I try to avoid skilled, manual tasks where there is a feeling of great relief when the task is done; not accomplishment. My skill level is better aligned with pulling weeds or digging ditches.
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post #13787 of 15864 Old 09-24-2018, 10:52 AM
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Anyone demo these yet? I’m in market to get 2 subs and considering these. I have all Revel speakers, F208 and C208 in front and S16 sides, C763 ceiling. A couple old JBL 2241H 18” subs.
Hey Don,

The B112v2 puts all the EQ controls on the back rather than having to do it via the LFO software. Also supposed to have a higher output woofer. I'm checking with folks at Revel to get more info for you.

They would look great with the F208's and C208 and I'm sure Revel has put some serious thought in upgrading them.

Last edited by Rex Anderson; 09-24-2018 at 11:13 AM.
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post #13788 of 15864 Old 09-24-2018, 11:32 AM
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To those that own the F208; what integrated amplifier with DAC is good with these speakers? I could also go with separates but would like to keep the budget under $4K. I'll be buying preowned equipment so please consider that when making suggestions.

Thanks all
Hi medicaljordan,
I've been pleased with NAD equipment sound quality driving my F208's. You didn't specify if 2 channel or multi-channel movies, but in this price range new I'd suggest looking at the multi-channel NAD T758 v3 ($1,300 USD new) and NAD T777 v3 ($2,500 USD new), both well within your budget. The included Dirac room correction works really well below your room's Schroeder frequency of ~200 Hz. and most likely with Revel speakers you don't need correction above that. The output power levels may not drive F208's all the way to reference levels - but many folks don't listen that loud anyway. The power level difference between these two models is insignificant, but you may need the additional HDMI of the T777 in your situation.

For pre-owned, try shopping all the usual places but include the official NAD factory refurbished outlet:
http://www.safeandsoundhq.com/NAD-El...ry-Refurbished

The AVS forum threads for the T758 is quite active. As these are both mature products that are receiving feature enhancements by NAD, the user community is benefited as NAD listens to this feedback and works to improve the product over time. My experience with other manufacturers (Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon, etc.) is that feature improvements to a product you already own are really rare. Both these models (now in version 3) are the same base hardware with added features and improved software over several years development. A plus IMHO.

NAD separates are also very good sound quality but the total cost of preamp and power amp will likely exceed your specified budget limit, even refurbished.

If your interest is in two channel, I would give the Parasound Halo P6 with ESS Sabre32 DAC a close look (~$1,500 USD). It's a newer product, so refurb or used might be scarce for now. Combined with a competent power amp, this would make a nice setup for your F208's. I googled to see if Kal Robinson had reviewed this one but did not find. He uses a Parasound product in his home as I recall, and has reviews published of other Parasound. I would trust his views. Enjoy!

Theater, 2019 version photo HERE! Panasonic TC-P65VT30, NAD M17 V2, ATI AT527NC, Emotiva XPA-5, Oppo BDP-103D Darbee, Revel F208 left and right, Revel C208 center, Revel M106 x4 surrounds, Sonance Atmos in-ceiling x4 (coming soon), JTR Captivator 2400ULF sub, Qnap TVS-471 server, miniDSP DDRC-88BM. Front wall 4" OC703 100%, side & rear 2" OC703 spaced 4" from wall 50%. GIK Soffit Bass Traps (x4)

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post #13789 of 15864 Old 09-24-2018, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by medicaljordan View Post
To those that own the F208; what integrated amplifier with DAC is good with these speakers? I could also go with separates but would like to keep the budget under $4K. I'll be buying preowned equipment so please consider that when making suggestions.

Thanks all
Hegel H300 or the updated H360. I was amazed at how big of an improvement they made with my salon1's and they do a very good job with the salon2's also 250wpc 8 425/4 with a great sounding dac in the h360, can't speak for the h300 because I never heard it but it has the same power rating as the 360. they can be found for around $3k used. No phono jack and only 1 analog input with 6 digital. I yse the built in dac for everything in fact it was like replacing my cd player also using the digital out on it.

Meridian dsp8000se upgrade, Vienna acoustics Beethoven's, Hegel H360, Roon Nucleus, Rega jupiter cd, Revox s26 tuner,
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post #13790 of 15864 Old 09-24-2018, 05:18 PM
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Yes. The Revel line is matched top to bottom, though of course there will be some variances.

Not at the moment but folk keep hoping...

Would it make sense to o get a pair of 228Be (slightly used on the forum) instead of F208 for a stereo music lover that also wants to listen to MC music and watch movies? From a budget perspective I would be more aligned with a full 7 Performa3 system but could upgrade to 228Be for just the L/R which would seemingly be a benefit for stereo listening.

I have 2 15" subs with Seaton Sound external amps and Emotiva XMC-1 & MPS-1 with Oppo 103.

Or I could just get a F208.
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post #13791 of 15864 Old 09-24-2018, 06:47 PM
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I have not heard the F228Be and barely the F208 so am not competent to comment. Search this thread; several people have heard both and commented.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #13792 of 15864 Old 09-24-2018, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoots View Post
Would it make sense to o get a pair of 228Be (slightly used on the forum) instead of F208 for a stereo music lover that also wants to listen to MC music and watch movies? From a budget perspective I would be more aligned with a full 7 Performa3 system but could upgrade to 228Be for just the L/R which would seemingly be a benefit for stereo listening.

I have 2 15" subs with Seaton Sound external amps and Emotiva XMC-1 & MPS-1 with Oppo 103.

Or I could just get a F208.
I don't see a difference between music and movies because you have two subs, but it's still a conundrum.

Because you have two subs, you don't need full range floor standing speakers. If you cross over at 80 Hz (which you should) and have other speakers that are flat down 80 Hz, you are wasting money on main speakers that go lower than that and the power necessary to drive them.

There are still some blemished Revel Gem2's available. They are -3 dB @ 70 Hz and have the best Be tweeter, the best mid and low freq drivers, crossovers and front zero diffraction baffle. A whole different ball game than the Performa series.

M126Be's are two way and spec at -3 dB at 54 Hz. F206's are three way and -3 dB @ 42Hz.
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post #13793 of 15864 Old 09-25-2018, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I don't see a difference between music and movies because you have two subs, but it's still a conundrum.

Because you have two subs, you don't need full range floor standing speakers. If you cross over at 80 Hz (which you should) and have other speakers that are flat down 80 Hz, you are wasting money on main speakers that go lower than that and the power necessary to drive them.

There are still some blemished Revel Gem2's available. They are -3 dB @ 70 Hz and have the best Be tweeter, the best mid and low freq drivers, crossovers and front zero diffraction baffle. A whole different ball game than the Performa series.

M126Be's are two way and spec at -3 dB at 54 Hz. F206's are three way and -3 dB @ 42Hz.
Just an FYI. The -3 dB spec for low frequency capability of a loudspeaker is very misleading. In Revel's case, I guess it is included for completeness, but the more important information is in the -6 dB and -10 dB specs. In my 1986 JAES paper I showed relationships between low-frequency rolloff measures and listener preferences - see Figure 5.3 and discussion in my new book. The results were that the -3 dB (half-power) measure showed NO correlation at all. A -5 dB measure was better, but the -10 dB measure was best. Why? Room gain. The measures come from anechoic data, but in a room adjacent boundary gain is considerable at very low frequencies and this is what we hear.

Go back and check the -6 dB and -10 dB numbers for more realistic evaluations.

Cheers, Floyd

Last edited by Floyd Toole; 09-25-2018 at 09:28 AM.
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post #13794 of 15864 Old 09-25-2018, 09:28 AM
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Thanks for that information Dr. Toole!
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post #13795 of 15864 Old 09-25-2018, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by driedmango View Post
Debating a new LCR setup, either M105 + C208 or M126BE + C208. Are the C208s going to be timbre matched with the M126BEs for movies? And if not, is there a beryllium C208 on the horizon?
All Revel speakers are very closely matched because they have the same design goals, neutrality on and off axis.

Apples to apples comparison would be M106 vs M126Be. Kevin Voecks has commented the M106 handles more power and would be better for main L/R. If you want to save money, you could use M105's for surround applications. The M126Be is a big step up due the the Be tweeter, 5th generation wave guide, better crossovers and the 6.5 inch Deep Ceramic Composite driver.

"While the directivity is a little better with the M105, in listening tests, the difference is quite dramatic in low-end heft and output capability. Even with an 80Hz filter and subwoofer(s), the M106s will play significantly louder than the M105s." Quote from Kevin V. (by the his handle is avkv here on the forums, I suggest reading all of his posts).

A C208 will match well with any Performa3 or Performa Be speakers. We hope Revel will produce a C228Be soon, but don't have any information on when that might happen.

Last edited by Rex Anderson; 09-25-2018 at 09:41 AM.
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post #13796 of 15864 Old 09-25-2018, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I don't see a difference between music and movies because you have two subs, but it's still a conundrum.

Because you have two subs, you don't need full range floor standing speakers. If you cross over at 80 Hz (which you should) and have other speakers that are flat down 80 Hz, you are wasting money on main speakers that go lower than that and the power necessary to drive them.

There are still some blemished Revel Gem2's available. They are -3 dB @ 70 Hz and have the best Be tweeter, the best mid and low freq drivers, crossovers and front zero diffraction baffle. A whole different ball game than the Performa series.

M126Be's are two way and spec at -3 dB at 54 Hz. F206's are three way and -3 dB @ 42Hz.
Using a 12 dB/octave crossover set to 80 Hz means the mains are about -12 dB at 40 Hz. That's a little less than half as loud, which is still a fair amount of sound, and maybe louder since the loudness curves compress at lower frequencies. IME, and perhaps only mine, I have always targeted an octave or at least half-octave below the crossover for the main L/R speakers.

I would not presume to disagree with Dr. Toole, however, and do agree a -6 or -10 dB point is a more realistic thing to look at, with the caveat that I would like to see that at least an octave below the crossover based on the argument above. The catch is very few speakers spec anything other than one point, and that point varies wildly among manufacturers. Some use -3, some -6, some -10 dB, and a very few good guys (ahem - Revel!) give all three so you can actually make an informed decision. You really want them all because the rolloff is very different depending upon the design (sealed vs. ported being the biggest player but other factors matter as well).

But, I've a "thing" for big speakers, and like the larger wavefront they create, so am admittedly biased in favor of larger speakers. I have had systems with smaller monitors a number of times over the years and just never felt they sounded as good as a larger speaker up front.

I don't want to hear about B-stock Gem2's or anything else right now...

IMO! - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #13797 of 15864 Old 09-25-2018, 12:14 PM
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I've had really big speakers but did not have subs, it was many years ago before subs and the information about how to best implement them was readily available. I've had studio monitors with subs. I much preferred the big full range speakers.

When I design my next system, I'm going to have to do a lot of thinking on what makes most sense for best audio but within budget.
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post #13798 of 15864 Old 09-25-2018, 12:26 PM
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Yah, always a conundrum... I built my first DIY servo sub back around 1980, 1982, to go with my weak-bass Maggies. That was about the time the first true consumer subwoofers started hitting the stores. I kept it when I acquired "full-range" speakers after discovering they distorted badly well above their rated -3 dB point, and went on to discover that most all the full-range beasts of the time were similar (though conventional drivers generally not as bad as panels). That was the genesis of my octave rule that I've used as a basis ever since. So, I'm probably out of date, but have decided I don't really care and will stick with what has worked for me...

Since that time I've learned more about acoustics (mainly via some long-ago graduate courses, then from the AES plus various references like Everest and then Toole 1st ed, now we've the 'net of all knowledge) and discovered the benefits of multiple subs. The rabbit hole goes ever onwards...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #13799 of 15864 Old 09-25-2018, 06:18 PM
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Hello Gents - does anyone know where I can audition 228Be's and 208's at the same location...I am will to travel within the tri-state area of NYC, NJ and CT...please advise...thx
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post #13800 of 15864 Old 09-25-2018, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
All Revel speakers are very closely matched because they have the same design goals, neutrality on and off axis.

Apples to apples comparison would be M106 vs M126Be. Kevin Voecks has commented the M106 handles more power and would be better for main L/R. If you want to save money, you could use M105's for surround applications. The M126Be is a big step up due the the Be tweeter, 5th generation wave guide, better crossovers and the 6.5 inch Deep Ceramic Composite driver.

"While the directivity is a little better with the M105, in listening tests, the difference is quite dramatic in low-end heft and output capability. Even with an 80Hz filter and subwoofer(s), the M106s will play significantly louder than the M105s." Quote from Kevin V. (by the his handle is avkv here on the forums, I suggest reading all of his posts).

A C208 will match well with any Performa3 or Performa Be speakers. We hope Revel will produce a C228Be soon, but don't have any information on when that might happen.
I was reading this forum and it seems like most people say M105 sounds better than the M106, including Floyd Toole? (when run with a sub). Seems like it has something to do with the high crossover frequency being a better match with a 5.25" than a 6.5"? (The M105 spinorama result is a lot flatter than the M106).

Last edited by driedmango; 09-25-2018 at 06:40 PM.
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