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post #13801 of 16237 Old 09-25-2018, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by driedmango View Post
I was reading this forum and it seems like most people say M105 is better than the M106, including Floyd Toole? (when run with a sub). Seems like it has something to do with the high crossover frequency being a better match with a 5.25" than a 6.5"? (The M105 spinorama result is a lot flatter than the M106).
The measurements are definitely better for the M105 but it really depends on how loud you like to listen. When Rex and Kevin said the M106/M126be will play louder than the M105, they're correct but all that really matters is how loud you prefer to listen. If you're like most people and you keep the volume around 75-85db I bet the M105 are better but if you really like to crank your music above 90db or so, you are probably better off with the M106 or even towers.
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post #13802 of 16237 Old 09-25-2018, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by driedmango View Post
I was reading this forum and it seems like most people say M105 sounds better than the M106, including Floyd Toole? (when run with a sub). Seems like it has something to do with the high crossover frequency being a better match with a 5.25" than a 6.5"? (The M105 spinorama result is a lot flatter than the M106).
The dominant factor is the size of the woofer/midrange. The larger the woofer/midrange driver, the greater the directivity index irregularities around the crossover to a small tweeter. The woofer becomes significantly directional as it approaches the crossover frequency. That is why the next step up is a three-way, with a small midrange driver that can maintain relatively constant directivity as the tweeter crossover is approached, and at the same time allowing for a larger woofer for more bass and more overall sound output.

In theory any well designed 5-inch two way has the potential of being more timbrally neutral in a normally reflective room than one with a larger woofer. When you get to 8-inch two ways one has real problems with off axis response. In all cases, a shallow waveguide on the tweeter is a significant advantage. Note, however, that the larger the woofer/midrange driver, the louder the system is likely to be able to play.

So it is a tradeoff. Sound output vs. timbral neutrality. Brand is not a factor in this - it is raw physics. Small two-way systems (preferably with a sub) are excellent choices if cinema sound levels are not demanded.
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post #13803 of 16237 Old 09-25-2018, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by donf1 View Post
Anyone demo these yet? I’m in market to get 2 subs and considering these. I have all Revel speakers, F208 and C208 in front and S16 sides, C763 ceiling. A couple old JBL 2241H 18” subs.
We have been referred to the Revel website that details all the info about the new sub:

https://revelspeakers.com/productdet...ct/b112v2.html

Sorry, I have not seen a review or know anyone who has heard them.

You could be the first....
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post #13804 of 16237 Old 09-25-2018, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
We have been referred to the Revel website that details all the info about the new sub:

https://revelspeakers.com/productdet...ct/b112v2.html

Sorry, I have not seen a review or know anyone who has heard them.

You could be the first....
Hey Rex! Thanks for looking into them. My dealer said the updated models aren’t available till next year. Going with plan B.
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post #13805 of 16237 Old 09-25-2018, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
The dominant factor is the size of the woofer/midrange. The larger the woofer/midrange driver, the greater the directivity index irregularities around the crossover to a small tweeter. The woofer becomes significantly directional as it approaches the crossover frequency. That is why the next step up is a three-way, with a small midrange driver that can maintain relatively constant directivity as the tweeter crossover is approached, and at the same time allowing for a larger woofer for more bass and more overall sound output.

In theory any well designed 5-inch two way has the potential of being more timbrally neutral in a normally reflective room than one with a larger woofer. When you get to 8-inch two ways one has real problems with off axis response. In all cases, a shallow waveguide on the tweeter is a significant advantage. Note, however, that the larger the woofer/midrange driver, the louder the system is likely to be able to play.

So it is a tradeoff. Sound output vs. timbral neutrality. Brand is not a factor in this - it is raw physics. Small two-way systems (preferably with a sub) are excellent choices if cinema sound levels are not demanded.
Well I see the M126BE lowered the crossover from 2.3 KHz to 1.7KHz, and I assume that alleviates the directionality of a 6.5". Would you say such a 2 way bookshelf with a tweeter that can cross over lower (like the M126BE) is more preferable, or a 3 way monitor with slightly lowering performing drivers (M106 tweeter + a 3" midrange?)?

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post #13806 of 16237 Old 09-26-2018, 05:30 AM
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Hi guys. I have a pair of Salon 2s on the way that will likely arrive next week. I have at least one question on my mind now that's probably been asked and answered before but I hope you'll respond anyway.

They're destined for a room that is not the best for speakers that tall in that my MLP will be only about 9' from the front baffle. I'm wondering if my ears may end up being further off "bore sight" of the tweeter than they should be, considering the height of the tweeter. Probably no big deal but if they are, has anyone ever tried to mount the speakers so that the axis of the drivers is pointing down a few degrees from horizontal? Can you do that by adjusting the spikes that I presume come with them? And no, I won't be suspending them from a custom mount upside down, even though I thought that was an ingenious "hack."

We're building a new house in which I'll design a room that works better with them, so it should be just a temporary issue, if it's an issue at all. TIA!

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post #13807 of 16237 Old 09-26-2018, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by russ_777 View Post
Hi guys. I have a pair of Salon 2s on the way that will likely arrive next week. I have at least one question on my mind now that's probably been asked and answered before but I hope you'll respond anyway.

They're destined for a room that is not the best for speakers that tall in that my MLP will be only about 9' from the front baffle. I'm wondering if my ears may end up being further off "bore sight" of the tweeter than they should be, considering the height of the tweeter. Probably no big deal but if they are, has anyone ever tried to mount the speakers so that the axis of the drivers is pointing down a few degrees from horizontal? Can you do that by adjusting the spikes that I presume come with them? And no, I won't be suspending them from a custom mount upside down, even though I thought that was an ingenious "hack."

We're building a new house in which I'll design a room that works better with them, so it should be just a temporary issue, if it's an issue at all. TIA!
When you say "bore sight", I think you're saying on and off axis. Is that right?

Salon 2 owners would be best to reply as my experience is only with F208's, but knowing how speakers down the product line are setup might be of use.

The F208's were easy to setup. I placed them based on Dolby guidance for L/R location, adjusted toe-in, verified they were level, and that's it. The speakers I had before the Revels were fussy by comparison. MLP always had the best sound, there was notable deterioration of sq left and right of the MLP, change of vertical axis further degraded sound. The F208's OTOH sound great from the MLP, the seats left and right of the MLP, standing behind any of those positions, sitting on the floor in front of those positions, etc. To be sure, the MLP remains the choice listening position but it's not the big difference I used to experience.

My system also includes an Anthem AVM 60 and I use ARC, their room correction software. With the Revels, running ARC is easier and is now much less sensitive to mic location, especially mic height. Guessing this is due to the good on/off axis response of the Revels.

Congrats on the Salon 2, BTW.

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post #13808 of 16237 Old 09-26-2018, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by driedmango View Post
Well I see the M126BE lowered the crossover from 2.3 KHz to 1.7KHz, and I assume that alleviates the directionality of a 6.5". Would you say such a 2 way bookshelf with a tweeter that can cross over lower (like the M126BE) is more preferable, or a 3 way monitor with slightly lowering performing drivers (M106 tweeter + a 3" midrange?)?
Without having a discussion with the designer I can only speculate. However, lowering the crossover frequency is always desired but usually limited by the power handling, power compression and distortion of the tweeter at the low end of its range. It is possible that the BE tweeters have better motors - that can make more of an audible difference than the BE itself. The small frequency difference is not enough to eliminate the DI issue with the woofer, but every little bit helps :-)
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post #13809 of 16237 Old 09-26-2018, 10:22 AM
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When you say "bore sight", I think you're saying on and off axis. Is that right?
Basically, yes, it's antenna system vernacular. Same principles as loudspeaker physics, just different terminology. Although with directional antenna systems such as phased arrays the azimuth and elevation of max gain (i.e., directivity) is not always along the axis of the physical radiating surface by design. It's still considered along the boresight though, as that is the angle where max illumination is intended when the main beam is steerable.

In the meantime I may have answered my own question. If you do the trigonometry, my ears would be barely over 6 degrees below the tweeter axis. From the vertical response family of curves published in Stereophile, although the response does develop some bumps above 1 kHz at 5* below axis, the biggest ones are above 10 kHz which I won't notice and the variation looks to be +/- 1.5 dB or so at worst.

I'd still be interested to know the easiest way to do what I mentioned...just in case.
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post #13810 of 16237 Old 09-26-2018, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by driedmango View Post
Well I see the M126BE lowered the crossover from 2.3 KHz to 1.7KHz, and I assume that alleviates the directionality of a 6.5". Would you say such a 2 way bookshelf with a tweeter that can cross over lower (like the M126BE) is more preferable, or a 3 way monitor with slightly lowering performing drivers (M106 tweeter + a 3" midrange?)?
If you check the spins of the M106 and M126be, the new version is a bit smoother around the crossover region but still nowhere near as smooth as the M105.
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post #13811 of 16237 Old 09-26-2018, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by russ_777 View Post
Hi guys. I have a pair of Salon 2s on the way that will likely arrive next week. I have at least one question on my mind now that's probably been asked and answered before but I hope you'll respond anyway.

They're destined for a room that is not the best for speakers that tall in that my MLP will be only about 9' from the front baffle. I'm wondering if my ears may end up being further off "bore sight" of the tweeter than they should be, considering the height of the tweeter. Probably no big deal but if they are, has anyone ever tried to mount the speakers so that the axis of the drivers is pointing down a few degrees from horizontal? Can you do that by adjusting the spikes that I presume come with them? And no, I won't be suspending them from a custom mount upside down, even though I thought that was an ingenious "hack."

We're building a new house in which I'll design a room that works better with them, so it should be just a temporary issue, if it's an issue at all. TIA!
Mine are about 8' away. No problems. When I sit the tweeter is about ear level, maybe a hair above, but I do not detect significant differences in response moving up and down a few inches. I suspect you'll have no issues, but if you decide to be really anal about it you could stack a brick or board under the back to tilt them a hair. I wouldn't bother (and with my luck I'd tilt the bloody things too far trying to get the spacer under them and dump them forward onto the floor, which seems undesirable).

FWIWFM - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #13812 of 16237 Old 09-26-2018, 12:28 PM
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Some have suggested using the spikes to tilt forward as you mentioned. Another option would be to raise seating height. I think the vertical dispersion due to the wave guide is so good you won't hear a problem.
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post #13813 of 16237 Old 09-26-2018, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by russ_777 View Post
From the vertical response family of curves published in Stereophile, although the response does develop some bumps above 1 kHz at 5* below axis, the biggest ones are above 10 kHz which I won't notice and the variation looks to be +/- 1.5 dB or so at worst.
This has come up before, but deserves repeating. John Atkinson normalizes his vertical and horizontal performance displays to be flat on axis. This is very misleading because there are often small acoustical interference effects in the on-axis curve (not audible problems) which disappear at small angles off axis. This is the reason one sees similar bumps and dips as the curves move off axis in the Stereophile data - in other words a small or negligible on-axis bump shows up in all off axis curves. As I said, misleading. The spinorama deals with this by calculating a listening window curve from 9 curves within +/- 30 deg hor, +/- 10 deg vert. Ideally there should be little difference between this curve and the on-axis curve.

EDIT: the listening window curve is likely to be the more accurate indicator of sound quality as it is a spatial average and will attenuate relatively innocent acoustical interference effects, and reveal potentially audible resonances.

I wish he would stop normalizing the curves.

But, you are right, the variations are small, and if they, as is probable, are evidence of interference rather than resonances, they are inaudible.
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Mine are about 8' away. No problems. When I sit the tweeter is about ear level, maybe a hair above, but I do not detect significant differences in response moving up and down a few inches. I suspect you'll have no issues, but if you decide to be really anal about it you could stack a brick or board under the back to tilt them a hair. I wouldn't bother (and with my luck I'd tilt the bloody things too far trying to get the spacer under them and dump them forward onto the floor, which seems undesirable).

FWIWFM - Don
Thanks Don. As it turns out, I calculated the angle and found it would only be ~ 6 degrees. I initially thought it could be 15-20 degrees, so thankfully, I won't need to resort to "anal mode."
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post #13815 of 16237 Old 09-26-2018, 05:41 PM
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For listening distances between 2 and 3 meters (you can google whatever that translates to feet) at -normally loud- listening levels, the M105, combined with multiple subwoofers, is still, in my humble opinion, one of the best loudspeakers one can get. It has some small on-axis ripples, the listening window however is pretty much flat (+/- 1db), and the early reflection and sound power curves are textbook smooth. My 'omnidirectional' microphone was probably pointed too vertically (a bit early treble drop) but the measurement in itself is quite valid. Without any correction above 300hz, the M105 performs as it should in my untreated living room.

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post #13816 of 16237 Old 09-26-2018, 06:04 PM
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For listening distances between 2 and 3 meters (you can google whatever that translates to feet) at -normally loud- listening levels, the M105, combined with multiple subwoofers, is still, in my humble opinion, one of the best loudspeakers one can get. It has some small on-axis ripples, the listening window however is pretty much flat (+/- 1db), and the early reflection and sound power curves are textbook smooth. My 'omnidirectional' microphone was probably pointed too vertically (a bit early treble drop) but the measurement in itself is quite valid. Without any correction above 300hz, the M105 performs as it should in my untreated living room.
Agreed, it's one of the best measuring speakers I've ever seen. Quick question since you mentioned measuring with an omnidirectional mic. What is the best or most meaningful way of measuring in-room response? Stereo measurements with the subs on seem to be the best in the bass frequencies but is that true above the bass? I only ask because measuring a single speaker vs stereo pairs is quite a bit different and then you have the placement of the mic which adds more variation.
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post #13817 of 16237 Old 09-26-2018, 06:47 PM
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Agreed, it's one of the best measuring speakers I've ever seen. Quick question since you mentioned measuring with an omnidirectional mic. What is the best or most meaningful way of measuring in-room response? Stereo measurements with the subs on seem to be the best in the bass frequencies but is that true above the bass? I only ask because measuring a single speaker vs stereo pairs is quite a bit different and then you have the placement of the mic which adds more variation.
Stereo consists of mono left, mono right and double-mono for all amplitude panned images across the soundstage, including the star performer in the middle. All that happens if you test with both L & R speakers on is that the measurement is wrong. Two ears and a brain respond VERY differently. Measure them individually.

However, low bass is substantially mono in most recordings - it is absolutely mono in LPs - so driving them together is essential to see how they interact with the room modes.

Yes the M105 is a great little speaker. Think about it, it is really an overachieving midrange and a tweeter. Add a "real" woofer and you would have an excellent three-way speaker. If you see three way designs with larger midranges, they are likely not to perform as well. There are several "famous" three-way designs that fall into this category. All that is required is a visual inspection of the size of the driver below the tweeter.
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post #13818 of 16237 Old 09-26-2018, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post
For listening distances between 2 and 3 meters (you can google whatever that translates to feet) at -normally loud- listening levels, the M105, combined with multiple subwoofers, is still, in my humble opinion, one of the best loudspeakers one can get. It has some small on-axis ripples, the listening window however is pretty much flat (+/- 1db), and the early reflection and sound power curves are textbook smooth. My 'omnidirectional' microphone was probably pointed too vertically (a bit early treble drop) but the measurement in itself is quite valid. Without any correction above 300hz, the M105 performs as it should in my untreated living room.

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Congratulations. Your system should sound mighty good.

"omnidirectional" microphones are not completely so. If you are using a 1/4-inch "measurement' microphone it is perfectly omnidirectional up to quite high frequencies. Only in the highest octave will is show significant directivity. It then becomes an issue about how the mic was calibrated. There are two common ways: "free field" which should be flat on axis (aim the mic at the speaker) or "random incidence/pressure" in which case the flat response is usually at or close to 90 deg off axis (aim it appropriately). If you want to really see if your tweeter is functioning properly at very high frequencies, find out what kind of mic you have, and then simply move the mic closer, keeping it on the axis of the tweeter. The overall system measurement will acquire errors at lower frequencies, but above about 3-5 kHz you should see something close to the anechoic performance.

If you are using an "omnidirectional' recording mic, all bets are off.
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post #13819 of 16237 Old 09-26-2018, 09:33 PM
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Stereo consists of mono left, mono right and double-mono for all amplitude panned images across the soundstage, including the star performer in the middle. All that happens if you test with both L & R speakers on is that the measurement is wrong. Two ears and a brain respond VERY differently. Measure them individually.

However, low bass is substantially mono in most recordings - it is absolutely mono in LPs - so driving them together is essential to see how they interact with the room modes.
This makes sense and is basically what I do but one detail I haven't seen addressed is the frequencies above the summed bass and below your room's schraeder frequency. I believe bass is summed under about 120Hz so it makes sense when correcting up to 120Hz to measure in stereo and use that for your parametric EQ filter, but between 120-200Hz or so, would I still use a stereo measurement or measure individually and apply EQ using the individual measurements?
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post #13820 of 16237 Old 09-27-2018, 01:26 AM
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Congratulations. Your system should sound mighty good.

"omnidirectional" microphones are not completely so. If you are using a 1/4-inch "measurement' microphone it is perfectly omnidirectional up to quite high frequencies. Only in the highest octave will is show significant directivity. It then becomes an issue about how the mic was calibrated. There are two common ways: "free field" which should be flat on axis (aim the mic at the speaker) or "random incidence/pressure" in which case the flat response is usually at or close to 90 deg off axis (aim it appropriately). If you want to really see if your tweeter is functioning properly at very high frequencies, find out what kind of mic you have, and then simply move the mic closer, keeping it on the axis of the tweeter. The overall system measurement will acquire errors at lower frequencies, but above about 3-5 kHz you should see something close to the anechoic performance.

If you are using an "omnidirectional' recording mic, all bets are off.
Thanks Dr. Toole. It's an affordable USB measurement microphone by Dayton. I mainly use it to fine-tune integration between sub(s) and mains.
My Anthem receiver does a neat job, but relative distance settings (which I guess are nothing more than signal delays) still need to be set manually, and if set wrong can mean several 'lost' dBs in the crossover region.
The full range measurement was out of curiosity - it does sound very nice!
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post #13821 of 16237 Old 09-27-2018, 02:04 AM
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@DonH50 , I think the poster you were responding to with the "^^^" deleted several posts, and now it looks like you are saying Dr. Toole made misleading statements, which (because a post was deleted) does not appear to have been your intent.
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post #13822 of 16237 Old 09-27-2018, 05:09 AM
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@DonH50 , I think the poster you were responding to with the "^^^" deleted several posts, and now it looks like you are saying Dr. Toole made misleading statements, which (because a post was deleted) does not appear to have been your intent.

It was my post. I responded to "it is absolutely mono in LPs" from Floyd Toole's post with what was supposed to be two quotes, one each from Barry Diament and Doug Sclar stating that isn't always true and that Sclar never sums to mono for LPs. I captured part of a third post from Barry Diament that really didn't match the context of my point. I attempted to edit the extra text out and when I went to save, AVS hung up because my internet went down (again). I looked at the post on my phone and I had taken out all of the quotes so instead of attempting to put the two back in from my phone, which I can't so I just deleted the post. Posting from the phone is troublesome enough, but editing is almost impossible for me. Maybe after I get cataract fixed I'll be able to do it again.

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post #13823 of 16237 Old 09-27-2018, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
@DonH50 , I think the poster you were responding to with the "^^^" deleted several posts, and now it looks like you are saying Dr. Toole made misleading statements, which (because a post was deleted) does not appear to have been your intent.
Thanks, definitely not, deleted my post.

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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
It was my post. I responded to "it is absolutely mono in LPs" from Floyd Toole's post with what was supposed to be two quotes, one each from Barry Diament and Doug Sclar stating that isn't always true and that Sclar never sums to mono for LPs. I captured part of a third post from Barry Diament that really didn't match the context of my point. I attempted to edit the extra text out and when I went to save, AVS hung up because my internet went down (again). I looked at the post on my phone and I had taken out all of the quotes so instead of attempting to put the two back in from my phone, which I can't so I just deleted the post. Posting from the phone is troublesome enough, but editing is almost impossible for me. Maybe after I get cataract fixed I'll be able to do it again.

Spectrum is coming out to trench a new cable back to the box because what I had was filling with water causing intermittent outages. They were here Monday to temporarily fix it and the new replacement cable is just laying on the ground. Well, the problem is still happening so they need to hold off on digging up my yard until they figure out what's really going on.
Hi Scott,

I am sorry, I should not have been so terse. Getting gob-smacked by Life and only had 3 hours' sleep (3h 8 m according to my FitBit, new toy from my wife) but should not have responded so harshly. There are many things upon which we agree, a few upon which we just fundamentally differ, and that's OK.

A lot of the directional info we hear is actually higher in frequency as numerous tests reported in the AES and other places have shown. The directionality of bass at subwoofer frequencies is essentially nil though there is some evidence the initial subsonic pressure waves from e.g. a kick drum can be located. I think your quotes were folk largely targeting frequencies above the deepest bass (sub) range but I was never any good at mind-reading (ask my wife) so do not know the authors' intents. As for mono bass on LPs, that is mostly a limitation of the medium and recording technique, but is not my area of expertise so I'll defer to others.

Onwards - Don

Edit: We live in a rural'ish area and Comcast is forever fiddling with our cable drop. First they used the wrong cable (too small), then replaced it with larger cable but not hardline, then finally with hardline after figuring out the loss was way too high. That held for several years until a gopher managed to chew through the downdrop at the pole (about 100 yards away) taking out several feeds. That was when we found there was hardline to our house but the drop down the pole was not. Fixed, fingers crossed, been working for a few months, though we get outages about once a month just because. Last time somebody ran into a power pole on a road a mile or so away that also had the main cable line. Took out cable and power, a two-fer, joy.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

Last edited by DonH50; 09-27-2018 at 06:49 AM.
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post #13824 of 16237 Old 09-27-2018, 08:31 AM
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This makes sense and is basically what I do but one detail I haven't seen addressed is the frequencies above the summed bass and below your room's schraeder frequency. I believe bass is summed under about 120Hz so it makes sense when correcting up to 120Hz to measure in stereo and use that for your parametric EQ filter, but between 120-200Hz or so, would I still use a stereo measurement or measure individually and apply EQ using the individual measurements?
Aha! You have found the weak spot - above low bass but not above the transition frequency. Incidentally, the Schroeder frequency, according to its creator, Manfred Schroeder, applies to large performance venues, not small rooms - the principle reason has to do with the lack of a genuinely reverberant/difffuse sound field in small dead rooms). The calculated frequency is close, but wrong. I elaborate in Section 6.2 in my book, with examples.

So, back to the topic of interest - measurements - as long as there are active somewhat orderly standing waves in a room it matters greatly whether there are single or multiple sources of sound. This is the topic of Chapter 8 and is well illustrated in Figure 8.13. So, it matters greatly how recordings are made and there are no rules - sometimes bass can be directed to a single channel, sometimes to multiple channels. Because consumer playback systems tend to be lacking in bass, it has become good practice to send bass to both channels, but obviously, this is not always done. If stereo bass is attempted, the recording studio/venue low-frequency modes will add unpredictable differences between stereo mics.

In LPs mono bass prevents vertical stylus movement, which modulates the tracking force, detrimentally affecting tracking capability, and with sufficient bass energy can throw the stylus out of the groove. Not doing this is possible only in recordings with little bass, or by those willing to risk mistracking and distortion.

In the playback situation, to be comprehensive one would need to measure all possible combinations of single and multiple loudspeakers. There would be several answers. The dominant acoustical effects in this frequency range are likely to be associated with boundary effects discussed in Chapter 9. This, of course, is a good argument for bass management and subwoofers but, as you noted, what happens for the next octave? I do not see a single technical answer, but experience tells us that human listeners seem to accommodate these variations as part of adapting to rooms.
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post #13825 of 16237 Old 09-27-2018, 10:07 AM
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There is a premise that mains and subs should have ~80Hz 'crossover' to employ multiple subs. That leaves couple octaves around transition frequency, that could be better optimized.

There are possible solutions with clever signal routing, sadly not done in modestly priced consumer gear.
What could be done is to employ 'main+LFE' mode in commodity receivers. This brings couple problems, but if done with the right gear (speakers that cannot be overdriven with full-range signal, response falls slightly below ~150Hz, etc), multiple subs can be blended in just below the rooms transition frequency. Of-course only subs near the main speakers play that high, otherwise sub localization begins to be problematic. Optimizing every possible scenario (R+L; C; R+L+C; LFE signal only...) is tedious, but can be done in software (MSO).
In the 90s Earl Geddes used to be big proponent of blending in multiple subs to the rooms transition frequency.
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Last edited by dannut; 09-27-2018 at 10:12 AM.
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post #13826 of 16237 Old 09-27-2018, 10:55 AM
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Thanks, definitely not, deleted my post.



Hi Scott,

I am sorry, I should not have been so terse. Getting gob-smacked by Life and only had 3 hours' sleep (3h 8 m according to my FitBit, new toy from my wife) but should not have responded so harshly. There are many things upon which we agree, a few upon which we just fundamentally differ, and that's OK.

A lot of the directional info we hear is actually higher in frequency as numerous tests reported in the AES and other places have shown. The directionality of bass at subwoofer frequencies is essentially nil though there is some evidence the initial subsonic pressure waves from e.g. a kick drum can be located. I think your quotes were folk largely targeting frequencies above the deepest bass (sub) range but I was never any good at mind-reading (ask my wife) so do not know the authors' intents. As for mono bass on LPs, that is mostly a limitation of the medium and recording technique, but is not my area of expertise so I'll defer to others.

Onwards - Don

Edit: We live in a rural'ish area and Comcast is forever fiddling with our cable drop. First they used the wrong cable (too small), then replaced it with larger cable but not hardline, then finally with hardline after figuring out the loss was way too high. That held for several years until a gopher managed to chew through the downdrop at the pole (about 100 yards away) taking out several feeds. That was when we found there was hardline to our house but the drop down the pole was not. Fixed, fingers crossed, been working for a few months, though we get outages about once a month just because. Last time somebody ran into a power pole on a road a mile or so away that also had the main cable line. Took out cable and power, a two-fer, joy.

My dispute was only this comment "it is absolutely mono in LPs" as that's not quite absolutely correct. In re your 2nd paragraph above, I mostly agree.

"I think your quotes were folk largely targeting frequencies"

My quote from Doug Sklar was that he didn't sum bass for vinyl period and Barry Diament stated that it most often was summed, but didn't need to be.

As far as my cable, they were just here marking where the other utilities were buried so I imagine I'm going get my yard cut up shortly. Aside from the sporadic outages such as last night, I've had cable go out at 10:30 in the morning, every morning for quite a few months. I'm on a bunch of forums and most don't do a very good job of saving what you've already typed when either AVS goes crazy or my cable goes down. So when I tried to fix the post from my phone, I couldn't figure out how to do it so I just deleted it, leaving you hanging. I had similar issues the couple of days that we tried to 'live blog' from AXPONA. In summary, I'm getting old and a bit foggy.
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post #13827 of 16237 Old 09-27-2018, 11:39 AM
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Anyone has tried Stillpoints under Revel speakers?

http://www.stillpoints.us/index.php/...!ultraSS_group

I have the F228Be

Thanks
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post #13828 of 16237 Old 09-27-2018, 11:48 AM
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Atmasphere. I'd forgotten that I had MA2s at one point. Nice thing is that if your HVAC breaks in the middle of winter, just turn your amps on.
If you want a tube amp that will compete with the ARC for far less money check out the Rogue m180 darks or the Rogue Apollo darks, simply outstanding sounding with Revels.
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post #13829 of 16237 Old 09-27-2018, 11:50 AM
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Anyone has tried Stillpoints under Revel speakers?
http://www.stillpoints.us/index.php/...!ultraSS_group
I have the F228Be. Thanks
I personally think they are overpriced, but it's your money. I have used the spikes that came with my F208s and currently they are sitting on the tile floor (slab) without spikes.

If you get something other than the Revel spikes, make sure to get the right thread.

Last edited by Rex Anderson; 09-27-2018 at 12:03 PM.
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post #13830 of 16237 Old 09-27-2018, 12:00 PM
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If you want a tube amp that will compete with the ARC for far less money check out the Rogue m180 darks or the Rogue Apollo darks, simply outstanding sounding with Revels.
I doubt that I'm going to do anything further. Next lifetime.

Besides, tube amps aren't necessarily the best option for ESLs. If I were to do something, and that something was tubes, I'd take a good look at VAC
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