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post #14701 of 15285 Old 03-13-2019, 03:16 AM
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That is very interesting about the 805 D3's. I do not care for them at all. Of course the salesman said I would be floored. With their PV1D which is a joke in itself, they sounded horrible to me.

Although interestingly this is what I prefer and have just obtained.

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/me...mphion_argon3/

I could not post the images. I hope it is okay to post a link here. If not Mod's kindly remove it please.

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post #14702 of 15285 Old 03-13-2019, 08:47 AM
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Some more thoughts from a Revel newbie... tl:dr, very impressive and the off-axis/reflection performance is a revelation (pun intended).

Got my M16s yesterday and, after hooking them up, am most impressed with the width of the sweet spot. By way of the walls I've struggled with reflections when using other speakers but right off the bat it isn't causing nearly the challenge with these. I don't want to completely kill the reflections since the viewing/listening area is somewhat small and it helps the ambiance for movies and TV but the performance of the M16s seems to be minimizing the issue. The positioning of the speakers also gives me really good boundary reinforcement for the low end, so while they aren't quite at the level of the Elac UB5s I had not too long ago the bass is still very satisfying in 2-channel listening and the speakers don't kill my ears like the Elacs did.

After seeing such an improvement in performance I think I'm going to be antsy until I replace my center channel as well. I've read about the C25 and C205 in this thread and other places but have been spoiled by centers that extend down into the 40+ Hz range; I don't cross them over that low but it does help to add body. Probably just need to suck it up and get one for myself to test.
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post #14703 of 15285 Old 03-13-2019, 12:59 PM
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Dr. Floyd Toole's Personal Home Theater / Listening Room

Hello all! Long time no post Hope everyone is well!

Since the article Dr. Toole wrote about his own home theater has been so incredibly well received, I thought I would post it here verbatim with pics included. That way more people can read it, quote from it and comment. Also a great opportunity to share Dr. Toole's awards and credentials, so people can see he's not just a guy with an opinion . Here goes, along with my introduction in italics:

So, if you are literally one of the world's foremost authorities on loudspeakers, rooms, and acoustics - and have literally written the industry accepted book on the subject -- what components and speakers do you chose for your own personal home theater and listening room? And how do you address the acoustical requirements and challenges of what is very much a "real world" (vs. custom designed) listening space?

That's the question I recently had some first hand experience getting answers to, as I had the unique honor and privilege of providing some projection system advice and guidance for Dr. Floyd Toole's recent home theater "makeover." For anyone not familiar, Dr. Toole is as close as one can get to a celebrity or legend in sound reproduction circles, and for good reason. Dr. Toole was the one to spearhead the first scientifically-controlled study of sound / acoustics at the National Research Council in Canada, starting back in the 1970s - research that continues to this day at Harman labs, which is still the largest and best-equipped acoustics R&D facility in the world. Though Dr. Toole is now partially retired, his research program continues at Harman under the guidance of Floyd's colleague and protege, Dr. Sean Olive. And the results of this research are published and peer reviewed by the entire audio industry in the true spirit of science.

It cannot be overstated how much the work of Dr. Floyd Toole has advanced the legitimate state-of-the-art in accurate sound reproduction. Dr. Toole has published numerous papers in the journals of the Audio Engineering Society and the Acoustical Society of America, as well as the aforementioned "industry textbook" on acoustics, loudspeakers and rooms. A measurement technique based on his research in the 1980s and further developed in the Harman research group is now a core component in ANSI/CTA-2034-A (2015). “Standard Method of Measurement for In-Home Loudspeakers”, Consumer Technology Association, Technology and Standards Dept., www.CTA.tech. For his scientific contributions to the audio industry he has been recognized with:

· Two Audio Engineering Society (AES) Publications awards (1988, 1990)
· The AES Silver Medal award (1996) and the Gold Medal award (2013).
· CEDIA Lifetime Achievement award (2008)
· Beryllium Driver Lifetime Achievement award from ALMA (Association of Loudspeaker Manufacturing & Acoustics International) (2011)
· Inducted into the Consumer Technology Association Hall of Fame (2015)
· The Peter Barnett Award from the Institute of Acoustics (UK) (2017)

He is a Life Fellow and Past President of the AES, a Fellow of the Acoustical Society of America and a Fellow of CEDIA (Custom Electronic Design and Installation Association).


In addition to all of that, Floyd is a man with means and impeccable taste. This is all reflected in his component selection as well as the overall aesthetic of the room (all well documented below). In creating this system, Floyd did not spare expense, nor did he waste money on "snake oil" components that often clutter up so many other supposed "state-of-the-art" or "reference" systems. As a result, the system described below can very well be described as "scientifically justified high end" -- which also sums up the approach we have when it comes to designing audio and video systems. I am proud to say that a great many of the same exact components and speakers are being utilized in our Reference Showroom (which also happily doubles as my own personal home theater ).

It is with tremendous honor I share with you the following article, courtesy of Dr. Floyd Toole himself. It was a true privilege to spend four solid days at Floyd's home, getting to know him and his lovely wife Noreen. The fact that I played even a small part in helping enhance the performance of Floyd's system makes this an even more unique and treasured memory.

Floyd, take it away!


The Toole’s Entertainment Room: 2019
By Dr. Floyd Toole

A room for lovers of good sound and loudspeakers


Those who have read my new book will have learned that much of what has motivated my research over my 50 year career has been the challenge of delivering good sound in rooms - any room. Dedicated listening spaces like recording control rooms, custom home theaters and stereo installations are able to employ acoustical treatments and methods that are not friendly to décor in typical domestic rooms. In those spaces it is routine to compromise visual aesthetics for real or imagined acoustical benefits. The decision of whether to create a dedicated custom room or to adapt an existing room is a choice driven by one’s chosen lifestyle, family needs, available space and, of course, budget.

In my case, it was lifestyle. We had no need for a dedicated “escape”room, but instead wanted a multipurpose room that was relatively normal in appearance, usable for reading, conversation, casual TV viewing, background or foreground music, and, with room darkening shades, suitable for engaging big-screen movie experiences at any time of day. Ekornes Stressless seating fits human bodies and is easily moved into arrangements suiting different needs at different times. Small movable tables replace cupholders, which are not optimum for our preferred beverage: wine. Four subwoofers in a Sound Field Managed configuration eliminate the need for massive bass traps, which is a major advantage.

The following is a panoramic photo of the room (geometric distortion included) showing seating in the conversational mode. The equipment racks are on the right, under the projector opening - in what was a fireplace space in the original house.



The room was configured in 2000, as a 7.1 system. The front wall was deliberately constructed as a low-mid frequency sound scattering surface using display niches and other depth variations (including spaces behind the fabric covered doors) to alleviate the boundary effect for that wall. Two of the subwoofers are hidden in those cavities.

This became a huge advantage when I recently decided to wall mount the inverted Revel Salon2s to reduce their visual dominance - the huge loudspeakers retreat into the background visually, but remain firmly in place acoustically. The other loudspeakers in the room are clearly visible, which would be a deal breaker in many households. In this one, I am fortunate to have a wife who has long tolerated my hobby/profession, admitting that the audible rewards are enough to offset a certain amount of visual loudspeaker clutter. This system may have exceeded even those generous limits :-)

An in-ceiling loudspeaker is used as the Voice of God. Others could have replaced some or all of the elevation speakers. But, knowing that the direct sound has a dominant effect on timbre/sound quality I decided not to compromise, and used high quality bookshelf loudspeakers in custom mounts, aiming them at the prime listening location as shown in the following floor plan.



The prime listener is close to on-axis of most loudspeakers and within the listening window (±30° hor. ±10° vert.) of all loudspeakers. The base level surround loudspeakers are Revel Gem2s for unquestioned timbre matching to the Salon2s and Voice2 L, C, R array. With flexible seating it was important that bass quality not be location dependent so Sound Field Management (SFM) was employed. Subwoofers in the rear corners of the room complete the array of four. They are all closed box 1 kW units. All loudspeakers are bass managed; high-pass filtered at 80 Hz. This was a challenge for the Salon2s, which are truly full range, requiring additional high-pass filter slope to be added in the SDP-75 processor.

The large opening to the rest of the house eliminated the first sidewall reflection on that side, so heavy velour drapes were used on the opposite wall to provide balance by absorbing much of that sound. Opaque lining provided room darkening at the same time. There is much discussion of the importance of side wall reflections in my book. They have a significant effect in stereo listening, but are unimportant in multi-channel or up-mixed stereo listening. I choose to add moderate up-mixing to most of my stereo music, finding the adjustable Auro-3D implementation in the SDP-75 to be quite pleasant. This is where timbre matching of fronts and surrounds is most critical. Movie surround effects are more tolerant.

The Toole’s entertainment room: 2019 - the “nuts and bolts”

Starting with an existing room that is used for everyday living as well as quality audio and video entertainment presents challenges. However, there are solutions. In this case there was the advantage that loudspeakers could be visible - in this household they have long ago been accepted as necessary to deliver the highly rewarding sounds. I have attempted to “soften”the technical appearance, but obviously not completely. The equipment/projector space used to be a traditional fireplace which architects persist in putting in the wrong locations for modern entertainment. I had the room rotated 180° and a new fireplace constructed.

I concluded that there was no single speaker arrangement that can perfectly satisfy all playback modes, so this is a compromise, a Trinnov suggestion. Time and experience will tell how well it all works.

The locations of the ± 60° loudspeakers required some visual compromises: a table stand on the right counter-top and an inverted, elevated location on the left to avoid head banging. The sound is fine, but I would have wished for less obtrusive visuals. These locations are perceptually advantageous and I will be experimenting with arraying the ± 60° and ± 110° speakers using various levels and delays.

From the acoustical perspective, there are abundant absorbing and scattering surfaces and objects to bring the reverberation time down to a broadband 0.4 s - a widely accepted norm for listening spaces. Much of this is not obvious — a "stealth” acoustical treatment. Large areas of heavy velour drapes and an upper rear wall that has about 5 inches of fiberglass behind acoustically transparent fabric help. Large areas of books both absorb and scatter sound. Clipped pile carpet on thick felt underlay is also effective.

Suspending the elevation speakers in earthquake territory (California) required some serious custom metalwork and sturdy attachments to the speakers. Multiple screws into the pristine piano-black finish hurt, but the existing tie-downs to speaker stands were simply not strong enough.



The powerful projector generated noise, so a hush enclosure was designed, lined with human-friendly cotton “denim” absorbing material and ventilated to the attic using a quiet Panasonic FV-40NLF1 exhaust fan. Just as I dislike putting perforated screens in front of loudspeakers, I disliked the idea of putting even coated glass in front of the superb optics of the JVC projector.

A little investigation and some lateral thinking resulted in the solution shown below - an 8-inch PVC pipe coupler, cut on one side of the central ridge fits perfectly with a bit of sanding. It allows air to flow inside the box without leaking noise. The projector is inaudible in the room.



Equipment List and Photo Gallery (text continues below pics)











Left & Right Speakers: Revel Salon2 inverted

Center Speaker: Voice2

Above powered by 3 Mark Levinson 536s

Six surrounds: Revel Gem2s

Front and rear elevation: Revel M106s

Front center elevation: Revel C205

VOG: Revel C783

Power: JBL Synthesis SDA-7200 and Lexicon LX-7 (both 200 w/ch)

Audio processor: JBL Synthesis/Trinnov SDP75-24 set up to do Sound Field Management employing four JBL Synthesis HTPS-400s

Projector: JVC DLA-RS4500 4k laser

Screen: Stewart 127-inch Firehawk (selected for its ability to reject lateral light leakage during daytime viewing)

Video switching and processing: Lumagen Radiance Pro

Oppo UDP-203

Kaleidescape Strato

Roon Nucleus

Apple TV 4k, DirecTV

Assorted objets d’art - apparently bronze sculptures of the female form have special acoustical scattering abiities :-)

Room: 19 x 22.5 x 8-11 ft high. Listening distance 11 ft for stereo and for ideal immersive movie viewing, 14 to 16 ft for casual listening and viewing.

The original construction in 2000 and this upgrade in 2018 were possible because of my exceptional omni-talented builder Matt Fesler who did it all: rough carpentry, drywall and finish cabinetry, floor tile, granite fireplace, metal fabrication and welding, household electrical modifications, wire pulling and hookup, hush enclosure, extractor fan, etc. I did the drawings - he made it.

Component installation and basic configuration by Toole. Video calibration by Kris Deering. Lumagen guidance from Jim Peterson. SDP75 setup and acoustical calibration by Kevin Voecks (Harman). Sound Field Management optimization by Todd Welti (Harman). System advice and guidance from John Schuermann (The Screening Room) and Steve Silberman (Roon).

Thanks to all for services rendered, equipment supplied and jobs well done! Needless to say, the images and sound are very impressive. I am more than pleased!

Floyd Toole
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John Schuermann
The Screening Room Home Theater Sales and Design
JS Music and Sound Film Scoring and Sound Design

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post #14704 of 15285 Old 03-13-2019, 02:23 PM
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How is the speaker wire being run to the one Gem2 sitting on the counter near the kitchen? (behind the cream colored couch)

Selling in AVS Classifieds
Revel Studio2 Pair - gloss black
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post #14705 of 15285 Old 03-13-2019, 02:42 PM
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How is the speaker wire being run to the one Gem2 sitting on the counter near the kitchen? (behind the cream colored couch)
It sneaks along under the edge of the counter, then is visible as it approaches the speaker. There is a banana plug and socket disconnect. I did it this way in anticipation of having to move it off the counter for social events where it was not acoustically necessary and would be an eyesore. This is not a WAF issue - I too dislike where it was necessary to put it.
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post #14706 of 15285 Old 03-13-2019, 02:45 PM
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Thanks John Schuermann . . .

Blush . . . It has been a while since I last read John's introduction. My ego is suitably inflated. Thanks for the kind words.

As might be anticipated, I am deeply gratified that all of my awards come from international professional industry organizations populated by people representing a who's who of audio manufacturers. These are people who have examined the published science, almost certainly evaluated it in their own facilities with their own products and found it useful. That is the highest reward for a research scientist.

It should be obvious that this is likely to be my last shot at creating a satisfying entertainment system - "you can't take it with you" and "enjoy it while you can (still hear)" were the folkloric thoughts in my mind. My previous system lasted 18 years. If this one does the same I'll be 98 years old, and may not care any more, or even be here. But, my father is now 106.5, so who knows . . .

In the meantime I am absolutely enjoying my new toy - with my wife's approval
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post #14707 of 15285 Old 03-14-2019, 08:21 AM
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I know it's probably been discussed several times before, but outside of cost is, and for a smaller speakers like the F206, is better to go with the same floor standers as the front for rears surrounds in a 5.1 or use bookshelf's of the same series for the rear? Seems easier to use the same floor standers for rear surrounds since you don't have to deal with stands, but generally, and in probably most installs, the rear speakers maybe closer to the listener then the front mains so maybe the driver blending would be better with the bookshelf 2 way and just crossover to the mains/sub?

Thoughts?
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post #14708 of 15285 Old 03-14-2019, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post
I know it's probably been discussed several times before, but outside of cost is, and for a smaller speakers like the F206, is better to go with the same floor standers as the front for rears surrounds in a 5.1 or use bookshelf's of the same series for the rear? Seems easier to use the same floor standers for rear surrounds since you don't have to deal with stands, but generally, and in probably most installs, the rear speakers maybe closer to the listener then the front mains so maybe the driver blending would be better with the bookshelf 2 way and just crossover to the mains/sub?

Thoughts?
5.1 would be side surrounds, correct?
If you listen to MCH music, floorstanders rule.

Some recent comments have been made of putting these side surrounds slightly forward of the MLP. @Floyd Toole
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post #14709 of 15285 Old 03-14-2019, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post
I know it's probably been discussed several times before, but outside of cost is, and for a smaller speakers like the F206, is better to go with the same floor standers as the front for rears surrounds in a 5.1 or use bookshelf's of the same series for the rear? Seems easier to use the same floor standers for rear surrounds since you don't have to deal with stands, but generally, and in probably most installs, the rear speakers maybe closer to the listener then the front mains so maybe the driver blending would be better with the bookshelf 2 way and just crossover to the mains/sub? Thoughts?
I suggest using all floor standing speakers. What are you using/planning to use for the front L/C/R? I helped someone here go through a long decision making process recently and he ended up with 4 F206's and a C208.

He considered F208's for front L/R and M106's for rears, but decided having 4 F206's was the best option. He is going to use 2 subs (5.2) which I would also recommend. With floorstanding speakers, you get a 3 way speaker and a midrange driver the bookshelf speakers don't have. Floorstanding speakers take up the same space as a monitor on a stand, but will handle more power and play louder. By using speakers that are the same, the tweeters are all at exactly the same height. Driver blending on the F206's is remarkably good due to the waveguide and crossover design.
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post #14710 of 15285 Old 03-14-2019, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post
I know it's probably been discussed several times before, but outside of cost is, and for a smaller speakers like the F206, is better to go with the same floor standers as the front for rears surrounds in a 5.1 or use bookshelf's of the same series for the rear? Seems easier to use the same floor standers for rear surrounds since you don't have to deal with stands, but generally, and in probably most installs, the rear speakers maybe closer to the listener then the front mains so maybe the driver blending would be better with the bookshelf 2 way and just crossover to the mains/sub? Thoughts?
I suggest using all floor standing speakers. What are you using/planning to use for the front L/C/R? I helped someone here go through a long decision making process recently and he ended up with 4 F206's and a C208.

He considered F208's for front L/R and M106's for rears, but decided having 4 F206's was the best option. He is going to use 2 subs (5.2) which I would also recommend. With floorstanding speakers, you get a 3 way speaker and a midrange driver the bookshelf speakers don't have. Floorstanding speakers take up the same space as a monitor on a stand, but will handle more power and play louder. By using speakers that are the same, the tweeters are all at exactly the same height. Driver blending on the F206's is remarkably good due to the waveguide and crossover design.
Nice, happen to know what the distance difference is at the listening position between the front and rear speakers? Also the speakers will be about a foot from the back wall so not a ton of space front to back but plenty of space on the sides from any walls.
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post #14711 of 15285 Old 03-14-2019, 10:14 AM
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Nice, happen to know what the distance difference is at the listening position between the front and rear speakers? Also the speakers will be about a foot from the back wall so not a ton of space front to back but plenty of space on the sides from any walls.

His room sounds very much like yours.

I'm pretty sure he has not been able to set up his system yet, holdups on new construction. I know he can talk about how he came to his decisions and give you details on his room layout.

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post #14712 of 15285 Old 03-14-2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I suggest using all floor standing speakers. What are you using/planning to use for the front L/C/R? I helped someone here go through a long decision making process recently and he ended up with 4 F206's and a C208.

He considered F208's for front L/R and M106's for rears, but decided having 4 F206's was the best option. He is going to use 2 subs (5.2) which I would also recommend. With floorstanding speakers, you get a 3 way speaker and a midrange driver the bookshelf speakers don't have. Floorstanding speakers take up the same space as a monitor on a stand, but will handle more power and play louder. By using speakers that are the same, the tweeters are all at exactly the same height. Driver blending on the F206's is remarkably good due to the waveguide and crossover design.
Rex, the point about all tweeters at the same height is not often mentioned. It's an interesting point.

While acquiring Revel speakers for my 5.1.0 system, I was on the cusp of F206's for the rear (F208's + C208 up front) but wound up with M106's instead. My wife likes the less massive look of a monitor vs. a floorstanding speaker in the rear, and SAF is important for future acquisitions. Our usage tends is about 80% movies & TV with the balance in music. It actually sounds pretty darned good yet the urge to tinker with it never abates.

Odd question of the day.

The M stands are made for the M105 & M106 speakers but it places tweeter height about 7" lower than the F208 tweeter. It looks like the F206 tweeter would be a couple of inches higher than an M106 on an M stand. So, if height-matching is that important, why are there 3 different heights? It sure impedes mix-n-match. The stands seem to say "one size fits all". Lastly, not everyone will be able to afford to have all the same speaker at ear-level.

Thoughts?

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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I'll leave the definitive answer to @Floyd Toole re: if having different tweeter heights is an issue to be concerned with. Vertical dispersion with the Persona3 series speakers is generally quite good. Obviously one can't have tweeters all in the same horizontal plane with speakers of different heights. I think the M stands are designed to put either the M106 or M105 tweeter at about the average ear height for an average person seated on an average sofa or chair. If you have speakers with tweeters at different heights, do you notice the lower ones sound "lower"? You might if that's what you are focusing on. The visual aspect may make it more "noticeable". I see it therefore I hear it. When listening to music or watching a movie, it might not be noticeable if you aren't trying to hear it.

I'm pretty sure I could live with F208's up front and F206s for rear surrounds and may do that when I get my current house sold and have a new living room/home theater setup. Not sure what I'll do until I move again.
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post #14714 of 15285 Old 03-14-2019, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
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I'll leave the definitive answer to @Floyd Toole re: if having different tweeter heights is an issue to be concerned with. Vertical dispersion with the Persona3 series speakers is generally quite good. Obviously one can't have tweeters all in the same horizontal plane with speakers of different heights. I think the M stands are designed to put either the M106 or M105 tweeter at about the average ear height for an average person seated on an average sofa or chair. If you have speakers with tweeters at different heights, do you notice the lower ones sound "lower"? You might if that's what you are focusing on. The visual aspect may make it more "noticeable". I see it therefore I hear it. When listening to music or watching a movie, it might not be noticeable if you aren't trying to hear it.

I'm pretty sure I could live with F208's up front and F206s for rear surrounds and may do that when I get my current house sold and have a new living room/home theater setup. Not sure what I'll do until I move again.
Definitive answer? Maybe, maybe not. It depends

First, as I have discussed elsewhere, and in my book, humans are terrible at vertical localization because of where the ears are. For typical sounds the localization "blur" (angular uncertainty) is somewhere in the range 4 to 17 degrees (Section 15.12.1 in the 3rd edition of my book). So, the height variations being discussed are completely lost unless one sees the loudspeakers and makes the visual connection (the ventriloquism effect). If one is watching a movie, the ventriloquism effect is extremely powerful. Audiences for decades have not complained that most of the on-screen sounds emerge from the center channel of the wide-screen presentation. Vision dominates localization, even in the horizontal plane where we are most sensitive.

As for surround channels, it is probably wise to elevate them a foot or so above ear level. Most of the sounds in the surround channels originate from above ear level: reflections in large spaces, audience sounds, flyovers, etc. Dolby mix facilities place the surrounds only slightly below ceiling height, far above ear level, and contrary to practice in home theaters. It means that at home we are not hearing what the mixers heard - not even close - and this follows Dolby recommendations. Something is wrong here.

As can be seen in my home theater all of the surrounds are elevated and the three fronts are not at the same height. Does it matter? Not to me and my guests, some of whom are pretty fussy. Vision dominates, and humans quickly adapt. When I think about it, I have never in my life had sound originate from the same precise location as a TV or movie image.

Living with the inverted Salon2s has been interesting. Although we tend to localize to the tweeters, which are only slightly above ear level, lower frequencies are more elevated. This puts them where they need to be for movies, but what about stereo? Treat this as a totally personal comment: I find it more flattering to most music than having the band closer to the floor. It seems more "open" and spacious. Several of my guests have thought the same. It would be interesting to do a proper double-blind comparison of the subjective effect of L & R elevation.

The "must be at ear level" idea originates with the reasonable notion that listeners should hear a pristine direct sound - i.e. on axis of the loudspeakers. For practical reasons this results in tweeters at the heights we commonly see them. Is it optimum? Why should symphony orchestras and all voices and musical instruments originate 35 -40 inches above the floor? How about elevating the speakers and re-orienting on-axis by tilting them if necessary?

Just thinking . . .
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Last edited by Floyd Toole; 03-14-2019 at 11:27 AM.
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post #14715 of 15285 Old 03-14-2019, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Definitive answer? Maybe, maybe not. It depends

First, as I have discussed elsewhere, and in my book, humans are terrible at vertical localization because of where the ears are. For typical sounds the localization "blur" (angular uncertainty) is somewhere in the range 4 to 17 degrees (Section 15.12.1 in the 3rd edition of my book). So, the height variations being discussed are completely lost unless one sees the loudspeakers and makes the visual connection (the ventriloquism effect). If one is watching a movie, the ventriloquism effect is extremely powerful. Audiences for decades have not complained that most of the on-screen sounds emerge from the center channel of the wide-screen presentation. Vision dominates localization, even in the horizontal plane where we are most sensitive.

As for surround channels, it is probably wise to elevate them a foot or so above ear level. Most of the sounds in the surround channels originate from above ear level: reflections in large spaces, audience sounds, flyovers, etc. Dolby mix facilities place the surrounds only slightly below ceiling height, far above ear level, and contrary to practice in home theaters. It means that at home we are not hearing what the mixers heard - not even close - and this follows Dolby recommendations. Something is wrong here.

As can be seen in my home theater all of the surrounds are elevated and the three fronts are not at the same height. Does it matter? Not to me and my guests, some of whom are pretty fussy. Vision dominates, and humans quickly adapt. When I think about it, I have never in my life had sound originate from the same precise location as a TV or movie image.

Living with the inverted Salon2s has been interesting. Although we tend to localize to the tweeters, which are only slightly above ear level, lower frequencies are more elevated. This puts them where they need to be for movies, but what about stereo? Treat this as a totally personal comment: I find it more flattering to most music than having the band closer to the floor. It seems more "open" and spacious. Several of my guests have thought the same. It would be interesting to do a proper double-blind comparison of the subjective effect of L & R elevation.

The "must be at ear level" idea originates with the reasonable notion that listeners should hear a pristine direct sound - i.e. on axis of the loudspeakers. For practical reasons this results in tweeters at the heights we commonly see them. Is it optimum? Why should symphony orchestras and all voices and musical instruments originate 35 -40 inches above the floor? How about elevating the speakers and re-orienting on-axis by tilting them if necessary?

Just thinking . . .
Hi Dr Toole

Interesting comment about the inverted Salon2s and stereo seeming to be more spacious and open. I had never even considered this as an option.
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I have seen many pictures of and have been in some recording control rooms with large soffit mounted monitors elevated and angled down. I have seen pictures of home theater installations using inverted JBL M2's with woofers above horns that are closer to ear level. In one instance, I inverted some studio monitors in a recording control room because the stands were too tall. It shocked some of my assistants when they first saw them, but they quickly adapted and agreed it was better than having the tweeters higher than ear level.
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post #14717 of 15285 Old 03-14-2019, 01:54 PM
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I’m the one who bought the 4x F206’s and C208 recently. As Rex mentioned I haven’t got to set them up set due to construction delays. I was supposed to be moving in at the start of February, but it’s looking like it won’t be unti mid May now, the wait is painful.

I went with the F206’s over the M106’s (or M105’s) for a few reasons. A pair of F206’s was actually only a small amount more than what M106’s would have cost me after factoring in the cost of the M stands. The F206 is of course a better 3 way speaker that will perfectly match my front ones. Also as Rex mentioned you end up wasting a few $100 for stands that really just get the bookshelf speaker to the right height and will take up the same amount of floor space as the F206’s would anyways.

I initially really wanted to do F208’s upfront but I was told by multiple very knowledgeable that I would be spending a lot of extra money for not really any gain. The big advantage of the F208’s is their lower bass response which I wouldn’t be taking advantage of because I plan to cross all of the speakers over at 80Hz to dual subwoofers.

My room isn’t really ideal and I won’t have much room behind the couch either, probably only a foot or two max. I can’t really comment on how it will work though until I actually get into the house. I’m planning to post an update on the system once I get it all set up if you haven’t made your decision by then.
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Revel Customer Support

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I'm just wondering if any of you guys have ever dealt with Revel Tech Support or Parts Ordering. I was putting a pair of Revel W383's up in my house yesterday and I somehow managed to bend the toggle screws (or they might have already been bent when I bought the speaker I'm not sure). I called first thing in the morning yesterday and left a message. I called three more times yesterday and each time was unable to reach a live person. I called again this morning and left another message. Should I expect that these folks will actually pick up if I'm persistent enough or that maybe they'll return my call or is this just a totally lost cause?
I sincerely apologize for those who have had trouble recently reaching our customer support personnel. Unfortunately, a confluence of events has resulted in far, far longer waits than are the norm or are acceptable. One of our guys who had several decades of experience retired. We actually hired two new Luxury Audio support personnel. One existing gentleman was taken off of support to train one of the new people, and another one left us. The result has been a short-term lack of the kind of support that Revel customers expect and deserve. We are truly working hard to correct the situation as quickly as possible, and again, I sincerely apologize and regret the situation which should soon be behind us.

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Problem with F208s

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Originally Posted by mrtripleone View Post
I am having some problems with my Revel F208 speakers. Not sure if I blew them or what? I am not getting any sound out of the tweeter or mid on them. Only sound out of the woofers. I tried bypassing my amp and hooking them up to the receiver and same thing. Seems weird they both stop working at the same time. I tried hooking up my center channel to the left front speaker wires and the center sounds fine.
Are you sure that the shorting straps between the low- and high-frequency inputs are making contact? Have you tried connecting the AVR or amp to the top inputs? Feel free to send me a PM.
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post #14720 of 15285 Old 03-14-2019, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Definitive answer? Maybe, maybe not. It depends


As for surround channels, it is probably wise to elevate them a foot or so above ear level. Most of the sounds in the surround channels originate from above ear level: reflections in large spaces, audience sounds, flyovers, etc. Dolby mix facilities place the surrounds only slightly below ceiling height, far above ear level, and contrary to practice in home theaters. It means that at home we are not hearing what the mixers heard - not even close - and this follows Dolby recommendations. Something is wrong here.

As can be seen in my home theater all of the surrounds are elevated and the three fronts are not at the same height.


The "must be at ear level" idea originates with the reasonable notion that listeners should hear a pristine direct sound - i.e. on axis of the loudspeakers. For practical reasons this results in tweeters at the heights we commonly see them. Is it optimum? Why should symphony orchestras and all voices and musical instruments originate 35 -40 inches above the floor? How about elevating the speakers and re-orienting on-axis by tilting them if necessary?

Just thinking . . .

Interesting analysis and I have a question about my 7.3.4 arrangement. Salon2 (tweeter at 50" from floor) and Voice 2 (23") up front. Gem2 side and rear surrounds (only). Rear Gem2s are on their suppled stands (43") as there is no rear wall. So I had to decide on the sides. I decided to mount the side Gem2s above ear level but inverted so tweeter height was close to 50" (bracket placement and errors left them at 48") rather than leave them on their stands at 43".

Since Revel provided the stands and they are not adjustable, the real world is as it is.

Based on your comments, I might remove the spikes in the rear Gems and place them higher by the use of some heavy wood amp platforms about 5" thick. I think I answered my own question by typing this.
(Note it always bothered me about the center speaker's typically forced location at a severely different height (although aimed)).

Theater: Lyngdorf MP-50 7.3.4, Sony VW675ES, Revel Ultima Salon2/Voice2/Gem2(4)/Paradigm Be Atmos (4), Mark Levinson amps (53 L/R, 532 Center biamped, 531H side/surrounds), Atmos amp: Sherbourn, Oppo 203, Roku Ultra Premier+, DTV 4k, Velodyne 1812 Signature (LFE), Velodyne DD-15.
FR: Marantz 8802A (and/or 7703), Sony XBR 4k TV, Meridian A350 LCR onwall, Dali in-wall surrounds, Atmos Martin Logan in-ceiling, REL sub, Oppo 105 (and/or 103), DTV, AppleTV, Sony 4k Media Server.
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post #14721 of 15285 Old 03-14-2019, 06:27 PM
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Comparing speakers in a showroom

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Had a chance to listen to the M16s and F35s yesterday; they were set up in a shop's listening room with the F35s as conventional wisdom generally suggest towers be positioned (couple of feet away from all walls, slight toe-in towards the MLP) but the M16s were on shelves up high and wider than the listening position, back all the way against the wall. Material was a Norah Jones CD (no idea which one) out of a Sony X800 and played through a Yamaha 3080 on pure direct, no other amps or processors in the chain. We were about 10-12 feet from the towers and a bit more from the bookshelves, which again were also up higher and not pointed at the listening position in any appreciable fashion.

Honestly, the M16s sounded better to me. Couldn't do a true double-blind because of the positioning and they certainly weren't level-matched at the listening position, one of many factors making this little more than a barebones introductory exercise, but the F35s sounded a bit congested while the M16s (terrible positioning and all) were clearer and even had better bass output in this very unconventional situation. My main takeaway from was more that the off-axis response of the M16s is indeed fantastic as opposed to a better/worse type of thing, but I was still surprised at the difference between the two.

Got to listen to the C25 in an Atmos demo and it sounded really boxy and mid-heavy, but I don't know how the receiver was set up and IMO that room is too big for that center. This shop also has both the Studio2s and Salon2s set up and while I didn't get to hear those... the Studios are large but good lord are the Salons massive.

Probably not sharing anything here that Revel vets don't already know but as someone new to the brand it was a neat experience.
Kspan,

This is a perfect example of the challenge in comparing speakers in showrooms. Unfortunately, it wasn't even close to making a remotely useful listening comparison with the speakers placed as you described. At the very minimum, the M16s should have been placed on stands, and swapped with the F35s in the same locations, while trying to keep the levels the same in the midrange, and listening to short segments of music. Make sure that no other loudspeakers are very close to, or in-between the speakers to which you are listening. I assure you that in a legitimate listening test, the F35s will sound far better than the M16s, even if you do not account for the more extended response of the F35s. It was just not in any manner a meaningful test.

Similarly, "boxy" or "mid-heavy" sound from a C25 indicates a placement issue and/or Room Correction that was not done properly. Perhaps it had even been done for a different speaker? Those are not characteristics that can be attributed to the speaker itself.

I know it is hard to find speakers set up for any sort of demonstration, and next-to-impossible to hear any sort of useful listening comparison. That is why I started this thread--to provide honest information regarding sound quality, based on objective measurements that have been proven to have a very high degree of correlation to sound quality.

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Are you sure that the shorting straps between the low- and high-frequency inputs are making contact? Have you tried connecting the AVR or amp to the top inputs? Feel free to send me a PM.


No, I was hoping it was that but it wasn’t. I received my replacement tweeters and mids today. Everything is working fine now. My amp must of clipped causing them to blow. I lowered my master volume on my avr, so hopefully that doesn’t happen again.
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post #14723 of 15285 Old 03-14-2019, 06:37 PM
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Repaired speaker

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Originally Posted by mrtripleone View Post
No, I was hoping it was that but it wasn’t. I received my replacement tweeters and mids today. Everything is working fine now. My amp must of clipped causing them to blow. I lowered my master volume on my avr, so hopefully that doesn’t happen again.
I am concerned that you experienced this very, very rare failure. Do you have a sound level meter? If not, might you have a calibrated microphone? Even if not, I suggest using "Audio Tools" (note that it is plural) on iOS to monitor your listening level. Set it to "C weighted" and "slow." Feel free to PM me, or to post the results to the group.

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post #14724 of 15285 Old 03-14-2019, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1316 View Post
I’m the one who bought the 4x F206’s and C208 recently. As Rex mentioned I haven’t got to set them up set due to construction delays. I was supposed to be moving in at the start of February, but it’s looking like it won’t be unti mid May now, the wait is painful.

I went with the F206’s over the M106’s (or M105’s) for a few reasons. A pair of F206’s was actually only a small amount more than what M106’s would have cost me after factoring in the cost of the M stands. The F206 is of course a better 3 way speaker that will perfectly match my front ones. Also as Rex mentioned you end up wasting a few $100 for stands that really just get the bookshelf speaker to the right height and will take up the same amount of floor space as the F206’s would anyways.

I initially really wanted to do F208’s upfront but I was told by multiple very knowledgeable that I would be spending a lot of extra money for not really any gain. The big advantage of the F208’s is their lower bass response which I wouldn’t be taking advantage of because I plan to cross all of the speakers over at 80Hz to dual subwoofers.

My room isn’t really ideal and I won’t have much room behind the couch either, probably only a foot or two max. I can’t really comment on how it will work though until I actually get into the house. I’m planning to post an update on the system once I get it all set up if you haven’t made your decision by then.
"A pair of F206’s was actually only a small amount more than what M106’s would have cost me after factoring in the cost of the M stands."

Excellent point!

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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post #14725 of 15285 Old 03-14-2019, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I have seen many pictures of and have been in some recording control rooms with large soffit mounted monitors elevated and angled down. I have seen pictures of home theater installations using inverted JBL M2's with woofers above horns that are closer to ear level. In one instance, I inverted some studio monitors in a recording control room because the stands were too tall. It shocked some of my assistants when they first saw them, but they quickly adapted and agreed it was better than having the tweeters higher than ear level.
OK, naive question.

Dr. Toole / Rex, I get what you are saying about placement for surrounds. What's up with the industry as a whole on this topic? Are we in a game of catch-up? Seems like this isn't well understood. It certainly has me thinking about my M106's differently.

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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Quote:
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Kspan,

This is a perfect example of the challenge in comparing speakers in showrooms. Unfortunately, it wasn't even close to making a remotely useful listening comparison with the speakers placed as you described. At the very minimum, the M16s should have been placed on stands, and swapped with the F35s in the same locations, while trying to keep the levels the same in the midrange, and listening to short segments of music. Make sure that no other loudspeakers are very close to, or in-between the speakers to which you are listening. I assure you that in a legitimate listening test, the F35s will sound far better than the M16s, even if you do not account for the more extended response of the F35s. It was just not in any manner a meaningful test.

Similarly, "boxy" or "mid-heavy" sound from a C25 indicates a placement issue and/or Room Correction that was not done properly. Perhaps it had even been done for a different speaker? Those are not characteristics that can be attributed to the speaker itself.

I know it is hard to find speakers set up for any sort of demonstration, and next-to-impossible to hear any sort of useful listening comparison. That is why I started this thread--to provide honest information regarding sound quality, based on objective measurements that have been proven to have a very high degree of correlation to sound quality.
Agreed on all accounts and all things that I acknowledge in my post; more than anything it was a demo showing how good the M16s sounded in a bad spot. Needless to say they sound amazing in my room now that they're properly set up.

Regarding the C25 I listened to another one at a local shop this week in more ideal conditions and came away with the same impression. Even still, things might be different if I took one home to my personal room.

Last edited by KSpan; 03-15-2019 at 01:49 AM.
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post #14727 of 15285 Old 03-15-2019, 05:20 AM
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FWIWFM... I have run a variety of speakers in my media room for both music and movies, froma Mirage sat system to my current plethora of Salon2's. I love Magnepan and ran them for decades. One of the things I found was that movies often seem to take little advantage of surrounds and rears but, when they do, having good response below 80~100 Hz enhanced the experience significantly. That is even more true for mch music that tends (in my limited experience) to use the surrounds (few 7.1 music recordings) more consistently and with a broader range of sounds. That is one thing that drove me to try replacing my beloved Magnepan system (MG-IIIa L/R, CC3 center, MC1 surrounds/rears) with Revels. I started with F206 surrounds/rears and the difference was immediately obvious -- the extra octave of bass was very welcome (the MC1's were realistically good only to about 100 Hz). I upgraded to Salon2's about a year or so later (taking advantage of a good bonus, understanding wife, and great deal on blems <that I cannot even really see>). Yes, it was a large upgrade, in more ways than one, but frankly the biggest advantage was getting the mid/tweeter a little higher rather than the extra bass compared to F206's. (Yes I could have raised the F206's, but this is my "end game" system and I like it.)

As has been stated many times, crossovers do not roll off instantly, so it helps to have good response to an octave or more below the crossover frequency. Equal-loudness curves mean the bass energy is typically much higher (10x ~ 100x, of 10~30 dB, in power) so even at -12 dB or so (typical AVR crossover) there can be a lot of energy in the mains an octave below the crossover. It is very easy to tell (for me anyway) if your mains cannot handle the bass.

Regarding placement, over the years I found myself liking having the surrounds a little forward of the listening position. Not Dolby's recommendation, but for me I found it brought the soundstage a little more forward, and I liked that effect for music and movies. Due to their size (depth), and relatively narrow room, my side Salon2's are a little forward (about 25 deg) and sound fine to me. It was later I learned Dr. Toole liked a slightly forward placement as well so I was in good company.

If I went back to smaller surrounds, that would be OK for most things, but I'd miss my big speakers...

FWIWFM - Don
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post #14728 of 15285 Old 03-15-2019, 05:38 AM
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FWIWFM... I have run a variety of speakers in my media room for both music and movies, froma Mirage sat system to my current plethora of Salon2's. I love Magnepan and ran them for decades. One of the things I found was that movies often seem to take little advantage of surrounds and rears but, when they do, having good response below 80~100 Hz enhanced the experience significantly. That is even more true for mch music that tends (in my limited experience) to use the surrounds (few 7.1 music recordings) more consistently and with a broader range of sounds. That is one thing that drove me to try replacing my beloved Magnepan system (MG-IIIa L/R, CC3 center, MC1 surrounds/rears) with Revels. I started with F206 surrounds/rears and the difference was immediately obvious -- the extra octave of bass was very welcome (the MC1's were realistically good only to about 100 Hz). I upgraded to Salon2's about a year or so later (taking advantage of a good bonus, understanding wife, and great deal on blems <that I cannot even really see>). Yes, it was a large upgrade, in more ways than one, but frankly the biggest advantage was getting the mid/tweeter a little higher rather than the extra bass compared to F206's. (Yes I could have raised the F206's, but this is my "end game" system and I like it.)

As has been stated many times, crossovers do not roll off instantly, so it helps to have good response to an octave or more below the crossover frequency. Equal-loudness curves mean the bass energy is typically much higher (10x ~ 100x, of 10~30 dB, in power) so even at -12 dB or so (typical AVR crossover) there can be a lot of energy in the mains an octave below the crossover. It is very easy to tell (for me anyway) if your mains cannot handle the bass.

Regarding placement, over the years I found myself liking having the surrounds a little forward of the listening position. Not Dolby's recommendation, but for me I found it brought the soundstage a little more forward, and I liked that effect for music and movies. Due to their size (depth), and relatively narrow room, my side Salon2's are a little forward (about 25 deg) and sound fine to me. It was later I learned Dr. Toole liked a slightly forward placement as well so I was in good company.

If I went back to smaller surrounds, that would be OK for most things, but I'd miss my big speakers...

FWIWFM - Don

Don, have you ever posted room pics?
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post #14729 of 15285 Old 03-15-2019, 08:19 PM
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Don, have you ever posted room pics?
I think there are pix on AVS of both my Maggie setup and the current Revel setup but am not sure where. Frankly I don't have a good set of pix -- the room is small enough that my cheap camera doesn't do it justice (not wide enough) and I haven't taken any pix with my "big" camera. I did a picture set with the little pocket camera (Canon something or other) but you just cannot tell the perspective and get a good feel for the room. I have a floor plan (in 3D, with ray tracing to help position treatments) but have not updated it for the Revels.

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Since Revel has reached utopia with the salon2 and the model is 12 years old now is revel going to look into active speakers? I posted the difficulties I was having getting smooth bass below 80 hz in my room with my salon 2's and after following many suggestions on this forum the ultimate conclusion was 2 or even 4 subs to cancel the bass null would be needed. Sometimes I get the feeling nobody listens to stereo anymore, but I buy the best full range pair I can afford so I don't have to use a sub let alone 4 subs. The Revels were just 1 pair of several passive full range speakers to disappoint in the bottom 2 octaves and they legendary bass in a 'normal' room. Is the market too small for a pair of dsp 228be's or Salon's? Where do you go from here?

Meridian dsp8000,Usher BE-20 DMD dancer, Vienna acoustics Beethoven's and (Strauss for sale), Hegel H360, Roon Nucleus, Rega jupiter cd, Revox s26 tuner,[path]salon2, salon1, f52, r105/3, ads L9e and the infamous bose 901 vI.
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