Revel Owners Thread - Page 499 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14941 of 15535 Old 04-30-2019, 10:38 AM
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I guess you missed post #14903 on the previous page.

I'd be willing to bet most if not all 228Be owners, myself included, are using a C208 for their center channel if they have a center channel. I'd also bet many of them would be interested in a Be version of the center channel if Revel offered it.

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post #14942 of 15535 Old 04-30-2019, 11:57 AM
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I guess you missed post #14903 on the previous page.

I'd be willing to bet most if not all 228Be owners, myself included, are using a C208 for their center channel if they have a center channel. I'd also bet many of them would be interested in a Be version of the center channel if Revel offered it.
Yeah, nuts. I've been time constrained over the last couple of weeks. Catching up in the threads will take a while.

It'll be very interesting to see what a Be center will bring to the party.

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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post #14943 of 15535 Old 04-30-2019, 01:56 PM
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Been in and out of this thread lately and yours is the first post I recall combining the F228Be's with a C208. There was a post at one point that a Be center is coming. Think you'll go that route or stay with the C208?
Hi Bill,

When I was ordering a 5.2 home theater speaker system that included F228Be's last summer I asked John S., plus the Revel western regional manager, if a Be center channel was planned. I think Kevin Voecks from Revel also responded. At that time there was no plan for a Be center channel, but I was told that this might be possible in the future. Since Revel speakers in the various model lines have similar timbre, I decided not to wait and I bought the C208 (with stand). I am very happy with it.

If there were a way to trade in my C208, I would immediately be interested in purchasing a Be center channel speaker to replace it, especially if I could use my C208 center speaker stand with the new Be center channel speaker. If my current stand would not work with a new Be center channel speaker, I would also need to be able to trade this in for the correct stand. Just let me know.

However, without a way to trade in my C208 (and stand, if necessary), I am not interested in replacing it.

On a side note, I may have a job opportunity in LA. I am currently in metro Dallas and the thought of a moving company handling my Revel speakers scares me to death <grin>. I have been moved professionally before and each time there has been some furniture damage.

Aja
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post #14944 of 15535 Old 04-30-2019, 03:17 PM
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Is there a way to answer this question about the Revel C25?

"But it doesn't 100% answer my question because Revel gives recommend amp power, not power HANDLING for the speaker. Recommended power is 40-120W. Does that mean it can only handle 120 watts peak? If so, its going to max out at about 101dB at 12 feet away. That's not a ton of headroom. But if 120 watts is well in the RMS range and it can handle 300 watts, now you're in a different boat. And in neither instance do I know if the tweeter is going to be at 10% distortion at 100dB. That's why I asked on a forum instead of just reading a spec sheet."
Yeah, I never got an answer to this question.

the lounj is a general interest/hobby discussion forum.
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post #14945 of 15535 Old 04-30-2019, 07:28 PM
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On a side note, I may have a job opportunity in LA. I am currently in metro Dallas and the thought of a moving company handling my Revel speakers scares me to death <grin>. I have been moved professionally before and each time there has been some furniture damage.
This is why I always keep the original boxes. Shouldn't be any worse than Fedex/UPS.
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post #14946 of 15535 Old 05-01-2019, 05:48 AM
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^And not just for moving. It helps a lot when selling gear, too, on places like Audiogon.

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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post #14947 of 15535 Old 05-01-2019, 06:47 AM
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I took delivery of a pair of Studio 2's yesterday expecting to be blown away - but had quite the opposite experience. They sound great at low to medium levels but become very harsh at reference volume. Either something is amiss with the Studio 2's or my XPA-DR3 (300 watts/8 ohms, 600 watts/4 ohms) isn't up to the task. The speakers replaced were RF7 3's which really sounded pretty good - but then again their power requirements aren't as demanding. So how can I confirm the health of the Studio 2's (do the tweeters ever go bad?), and if the Emo is at fault, what 3 channel (Voice 2 center) solutions might be a good fit for the Revels? Thanks!
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post #14948 of 15535 Old 05-01-2019, 07:37 AM
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Harsh how, where in the frequency range? Midrange, highest frequencies?

One answer would be that you got used to and like the sound of the Klipsch and won't be satisfied with a different sound.

How large is the room, how far are you from the speakers, how far are the speakers from walls, any EQ used?

This is one of those very rare cases where I'd suggest trying a different amplifier to see if it makes any difference. IIRC the Emotiva DR series uses a bridged sort of design to achieve balanced output and historically have not "liked" low-Z and complex loads. That may not have anything to do with it, of course, especially given its ability to double power into a 4-ohm load... It could be the speakers have a problem, require more power than the amplifier can deliver with low distortion (seems unlikely), or simply cannot deliver the volume you desire. It could also be that their radiation pattern in your room is emphasizing or de-emphasizing some frequencies (tweaking placement and such might help). I virtually never listen that loudly.

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post #14949 of 15535 Old 05-01-2019, 08:13 AM
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Harsh how, where in the frequency range? Midrange, highest frequencies?

One answer would be that you got used to and like the sound of the Klipsch and won't be satisfied with a different sound.

How large is the room, how far are you from the speakers, how far are the speakers from walls, any EQ used?

This is one of those very rare cases where I'd suggest trying a different amplifier to see if it makes any difference. IIRC the Emotiva DR series uses a bridged sort of design to achieve balanced output and historically have not "liked" low-Z and complex loads. That may not have anything to do with it, of course, especially given its ability to double power into a 4-ohm load... It could be the speakers have a problem, require more power than the amplifier can deliver with low distortion (seems unlikely), or simply cannot deliver the volume you desire. It could also be that their radiation pattern in your room is emphasizing or de-emphasizing some frequencies (tweaking placement and such might help). I virtually never listen that loudly.
The room is 18 x 20 with the speakers 2 feet from the back wall. They are 9 feet apart with a centered listening position 9 feet out. I've got the treble selector set at -1 and the bass set to boundary. The harshness is at the top end and can only be mitigated by turning down the volume. The level at that point reads about 60% on the AV8805 - that sourced by a TIDAL FLAC feed in pure direct mode. It's a comfortable volume but far from gratifying and certainly less than what these speakers should be capable of. I'm not sure how to trouble shoot this other than perhaps purchasing an MC301 from Crutchfield then return it, or purchase the Dan D'Agostino Master Power 3+ off Audiogon which seems to be at a pretty decent price - not sure how well matched to the Revels it would be. According to the tmraudio.com website I've got 2 weeks to return the speakers but would like to avoid going through all that
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post #14950 of 15535 Old 05-01-2019, 08:51 AM
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The room is 18 x 20 with the speakers 2 feet from the back wall. They are 9 feet apart with a centered listening position 9 feet out. I've got the treble selector set at -1 and the bass set to boundary. The harshness is at the top end and can only be mitigated by turning down the volume. The level at that point reads about 60% on the AV8805 - that sourced by a TIDAL FLAC feed in pure direct mode. It's a comfortable volume but far from gratifying and certainly less than what these speakers should be capable of. I'm not sure how to trouble shoot this other than perhaps purchasing an MC301 from Crutchfield then return it, or purchase the Dan D'Agostino Master Power 3+ off Audiogon which seems to be at a pretty decent price - not sure how well matched to the Revels it would be. According to the tmraudio.com website I've got 2 weeks to return the speakers but would like to avoid going through all that
If you are concerned about the Studio2's, trylistening to each channel separately to verify that they behave the same.

If they do, it is not likely to be speaker issue.

My Studio2's perform very well at high volumedrive by the ATI AT4000/AT6000 amplifiers, so they are a good match.

I am currently using a Benchmark AHB2 to driveboth Salon2's (while waiting for more AHB2's to arrive).
The detail, andabsence of noise and lack of distortion are astounding.
I have not clipped the AHB2's 100 WPC into 8 ohms (190 into 4 ohms) watching any movie, even at theatrical volumes.
This includes the Auqaman UHD which was sending significant bass energy to the mains, evidenced by the significant Salon2 woofer movement.

I can illuminate the clip indicators playing music, but not at any remotely comfortable volume.
Once the complement of AHB2s arrive, I will examine the benefit of bi-ampingversus bridging.

If you are entertaining a change of amps, Benchmark has a 30-day return period.
Highly recommended!

- Rich
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post #14951 of 15535 Old 05-01-2019, 09:50 AM
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If you are concerned about the Studio2's, trylistening to each channel separately to verify that they behave the same.

If they do, it is not likely to be speaker issue.

My Studio2's perform very well at high volumedrive by the ATI AT4000/AT6000 amplifiers, so they are a good match.

I am currently using a Benchmark AHB2 to driveboth Salon2's (while waiter for more AHB2's to arrive).
The detail andabsence of noise and distortion is astounding.
I have not clipped the AHB2;s 100 WPC into 8 ohms and190 into 4 ohms watching any movie, even at theatrical volumes.
This includes the Auqaman UHD which wassending significant bass energy to the mains, evidenced by the significantSalon2 woofer movement.

I can illuminate the clip indicators playing music, but not atany remotely comfortable volume.
Once the complement of AHB2s arrive, I will examine the benefit of bi-ampingversus bridging.

If you are entertaining a change of amps,Benchmark has a 30-day return period. Highly recommended!

- Rich
Curious if you considered the Bel Canto REF600M? Also a Stereophile Class A recommendation at 300 watts/8 ohms, 600 watts/4 ohms.... The 30 day audition which Benchmark offers is tempting. Will spend time later today testing each speaker separately, may also isolate treble using the bi-amp posts.
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post #14952 of 15535 Old 05-01-2019, 10:45 AM
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Curious if you considered the Bel Canto REF600M? Also a Stereophile Class A recommendation at 300 watts/8 ohms, 600 watts/4 ohms.... The 30 day audition which Benchmark offers is tempting. Will spend time later today testing each speaker separately, may also isolate treble using the bi-amp posts.
I have directly compared the ATI AT4002 (Signature Class A/B) and the ATI AT522NC (Hypex N-Core NC-500) amplifiers.
If my preference was for "smoothness" driving the Salon2's (likewise the Studio2's), then AT4002 would be my choice, given these two amplifiers.

The Benchmark has the option to use stereo mode at 100 WPC or 380 WPC bridged.
100 watts that essentially doubles down into 4 ohm's is a lot of power.
Unlike other amps, bridging the AHB2 does not increase distortion.
I have no direct experience with the 600M but, in terms of measure performance, the AHB2 has no switching noise and an order of magnitude less distortion.

Here are the Stereophile measurements of both amplifiers:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...r-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/...r-measurements

@gsr brought his AHB2 to my house over lunch hour about a year ago.
I had been using the AT6000's at the time, which are very-fine amplifiers.
I was astonished by the clean detailed sound provided by the AHB2, and now that I own them, I remain that way

- Rich
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post #14953 of 15535 Old 05-01-2019, 01:48 PM
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I have directly compared the ATI AT4002 (Signature Class A/B) and the ATI AT522NC (Hypex N-Core NC-500) amplifiers.
If my preference was for "smoothness" driving the Salon2's (likewise the Studio2's), then AT4002 would be my choice, given these two amplifiers.

The Benchmark has the option to use stereo mode at 100 WPC or 380 WPC bridged.
100 watts that essentially doubles down into 4 ohm's is a lot of power.
Unlike other amps, bridging the AHB2 does not increase distortion.
I have no direct experience with the 600M but, in terms of measure performance, the AHB2 has no switching noise and an order of magnitude less distortion.

Here are the Stereophile measurements of both amplifiers:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/...r-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/...r-measurements

@gsr brought his AHB2 to my house over lunch hour about a year ago.
I had been using the AT6000's at the time, which are very-fine amplifiers.
I was astonished by the clean detailed sound provided by the AHB2, and now that I own them, I remain that way

- Rich
So I isolated the 5" driver and tweeter from the 8" woofers using the top binding posts on the Studios and ... no more harshness. It would appear then, under loaded conditions, the Emo is not working well with these speakers. I've had a few 3 channel recommendations; Parasound A31, ATI AT4003, Benchmark AHB2 (x3), Bel Canto 600M (x3), and Moon 400M (x3). There's a Parasound dealer not too far from here, the ATI is no-return mail order, the Benchmark, albeit the most expensive option, gives you a 30 return window. The Moons are also in the Benchmark price range. Any other thoughts appreciated....

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post #14954 of 15535 Old 05-01-2019, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Painter View Post
Curious if you considered the Bel Canto REF600M? Also a Stereophile Class A recommendation at 300 watts/8 ohms, 600 watts/4 ohms.... The 30 day audition which Benchmark offers is tempting. Will spend time later today testing each speaker separately, may also isolate treble using the bi-amp posts.
They are very different-sounding amps, if you can use that adverb to differentiate among good amps. Nonetheless, the REF600M is much warmer than the Benchmark and can seem a bit muffled. OTOH, the Benchmark, which is remarkably open and transparent, can be ruthless in revealing faults elsewhere and seem bright in direct comparisons. The Parasound A31 is somewhere in between.
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post #14955 of 15535 Old 05-01-2019, 03:15 PM
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This is why I always keep the original boxes. Shouldn't be any worse than Fedex/UPS.
Good idea. Glad I kept the boxes. Thanks.
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post #14956 of 15535 Old 05-02-2019, 06:11 AM
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So I isolated the 5" driver and tweeter from the 8" woofers using the top binding posts on the Studios and ... no more harshness. It would appear then, under loaded conditions, the Emo is not working well with these speakers. I've had a few 3 channel recommendations; Parasound A31, ATI AT4003, Benchmark AHB2 (x3), Bel Canto 600M (x3), and Moon 400M (x3). There's a Parasound dealer not too far from here, the ATI is no-return mail order, the Benchmark, albeit the most expensive option, gives you a 30 return window. The Moons are also in the Benchmark price range. Any other thoughts appreciated....
If you're using Audessey EQ on your 8805, did you rerun the calibration after installing the Studios? Silly question, but since you just received them I figure its worth asking. I ran Salon2s for a month or so without re-calibrating for lack of time. The most prominent difference after rerunning the calibration was that it eliminated a subtle harshness that was causing minor listening fatigue at higher listening. Obviously the previous speakers needed a bump in the higher range that the Salon2s didnt.
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post #14957 of 15535 Old 05-02-2019, 06:11 AM
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I was driving my Studio2s with a pair of Emotiva XPA-1Ls in Class A mode and they never sounded harsh or anything remotely like that.

The Emotivas are not a high-powered amp

I always thought Bel Canto gear to be overpriced.

 
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post #14958 of 15535 Old 05-02-2019, 08:24 AM
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If you're using Audessey EQ on your 8805, did you rerun the calibration after installing the Studios? Silly question, but since you just received them I figure its worth asking. I ran Salon2s for a month or so without re-calibrating for lack of time. The most prominent difference after rerunning the calibration was that it eliminated a subtle harshness that was causing minor listening fatigue at higher listening. Obviously the previous speakers needed a bump in the higher range that the Salon2s didnt.
I'm holding off on Audessey re-calibration until the Voice 2 arrives. For two channel listening my preference is to stream TIDAL FLAC in pure direct mode. What makes the most sense at this point is to borrow a Parasound (or similar) from my local dealer and verify it resolves the harshness problem.
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post #14959 of 15535 Old 05-02-2019, 11:42 AM
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I'm holding off on Audessey re-calibration until the Voice 2 arrives. For two channel listening my preference is to stream TIDAL FLAC in pure direct mode. What makes the most sense at this point is to borrow a Parasound (or similar) from my local dealer and verify it resolves the harshness problem.
I'd run Audyssey now and see if that fixes the issue. Easier and cheaper than an amp swap. Depending upon your room the Studio2's may just be sending more upper midrange and HF energy to the listener, perhaps bounced off the walls and ceiling.
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post #14960 of 15535 Old 05-02-2019, 04:06 PM
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I'm holding off on Audessey re-calibration until the Voice 2 arrives. For two channel listening my preference is to stream TIDAL FLAC in pure direct mode. What makes the most sense at this point is to borrow a Parasound (or similar) from my local dealer and verify it resolves the harshness problem.

Coincidentally, I waited to recalibrate because I was awaiting tilt-adjustment screws for the Voice2 stand so that I wouldn't have to recalibrate again once I had the desired angle for the Voice2.


I do second the suggestion to run Audessey and listen with it enabled/disabled.
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post #14961 of 15535 Old 05-02-2019, 07:03 PM
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If you are concerned about the Studio2's, trylistening to each channel separately to verify that they behave the same.

If they do, it is not likely to be speaker issue.

My Studio2's perform very well at high volumedrive by the ATI AT4000/AT6000 amplifiers, so they are a good match.

I am currently using a Benchmark AHB2 to driveboth Salon2's (while waiting for more AHB2's to arrive).
The detail, andabsence of noise and lack of distortion are astounding.
I have not clipped the AHB2's 100 WPC into 8 ohms (190 into 4 ohms) watching any movie, even at theatrical volumes.
This includes the Auqaman UHD which was sending significant bass energy to the mains, evidenced by the significant Salon2 woofer movement.

I can illuminate the clip indicators playing music, but not at any remotely comfortable volume.
Once the complement of AHB2s arrive, I will examine the benefit of bi-ampingversus bridging.

If you are entertaining a change of amps, Benchmark has a 30-day return period.
Highly recommended!

- Rich
Are your salon 2’s bass managed? Mine are croosed over at 80hz in both home theater and 2-channel listening (with a JL CR-1 for 2-channel). I’ve always been curious to what degree the “power hungriness” of Salons is reduced when subs take the load below 80hz. I like my JC 1s, but not the heat they put out. Always wondered how they would do with a lower powered stereo amp considering they are bass managed and that should in theory make them more efficient. Interested to hear your results comparing one vs two bi-amped/bridged AHB2’s driving your salons.

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post #14962 of 15535 Old 05-02-2019, 07:25 PM
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Coincidentally, I waited to recalibrate because I was awaiting tilt-adjustment screws for the Voice2 stand so that I wouldn't have to recalibrate again once I had the desired angle for the Voice2.


I do second the suggestion to run Audessey and listen with it enabled/disabled.
Suggestions are much appreciated - very grateful for this forum! The Voice 2 will be here on Wednesday and I should have access to an A31 by the end of next week. Audessey, in conjunction with the AV8805 IOS app, has been very effective in correcting acoustical imperfections in our 7.4.2 theater. I've no doubt of the same outcome once re-calibrated with the Revel speakers. For two channel listening however - which is the whole point of the upgrade - I'd prefer no equalization take place. Call it purist or whatever - I want to hear high quality sourced audio rendered through to the Studio 2s without any flavoring...
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I tend to take the opposite tact... If room correction helps movies, then it should help music. In fact, I'd rather have correction for my music, as I tend to focus more on the video for movies and ultimate sound quality is less important. To me music is most important and the thing I want to sound the best. My "purist" notions went out the window decades ago when I worked in a studio and saw how much processing goes on behind the scenes to create the recordings we hear. To me pure is the best sound I can get, and for me that includes appropriate EQ.

YMMV - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #14964 of 15535 Old 05-02-2019, 08:35 PM
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^^ So true.


I mean, if a hundred million transistor junctions have already had their way with the signal, amplifying and/or switching it, what's a few million more?
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post #14965 of 15535 Old 05-02-2019, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Painter View Post
Suggestions are much appreciated - very grateful for this forum! The Voice 2 will be here on Wednesday and I should have access to an A31 by the end of next week. Audessey, in conjunction with the AV8805 IOS app, has been very effective in correcting acoustical imperfections in our 7.4.2 theater. I've no doubt of the same outcome once re-calibrated with the Revel speakers. For two channel listening however - which is the whole point of the upgrade - I'd prefer no equalization take place. Call it purist or whatever - I want to hear high quality sourced audio rendered through to the Studio 2s without any flavoring...
Tend to agree on 2 channel playback. Anthem ARC used for 7.1 but for 2 channel, the front floorstanders play full range without correction. The room was built to an acoustic analysis and 3 days of listening and positioning the floorstanders to their optimal location.
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post #14966 of 15535 Old 05-03-2019, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
I tend to take the opposite tact... If room correction helps movies, then it should help music. In fact, I'd rather have correction for my music, as I tend to focus more on the video for movies and ultimate sound quality is less important. To me music is most important and the thing I want to sound the best. My "purist" notions went out the window decades ago when I worked in a studio and saw how much processing goes on behind the scenes to create the recordings we hear. To me pure is the best sound I can get, and for me that includes appropriate EQ.

YMMV - Don

You make a good point Don. It make take several weeks to get all this sorted out - will be interesting to A/B the corrected/uncorrected audio. Appreciate your help!
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post #14967 of 15535 Old 05-03-2019, 05:30 AM
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You make a good point Don. It make take several weeks to get all this sorted out - will be interesting to A/B the corrected/uncorrected audio. Appreciate your help!
NP.

One other point I forgot to make is that I don't usually listen all that loudly though do like to crank it sometimes, usually more so on music than movies, but that means I am likely listening at a lower volume than the recording was mixed. That means a lot of recordings sound bass-shy to me so I incorporate a mild bass boost in my processor's target curve to compensate. Look at equal-loudness curves to see how rapidly bass falls off due to the way we hear -- it takes much more power to make bass sound as loud as the midrange, and it gets worse at lower volume. Sooo the bass that was big and full to the mastering engineer mixing at 80 dB sounds anemic to me listening at 65~70 dB.

HTH/IME/IMO/YMMV/etc. - Don
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post #14968 of 15535 Old 05-03-2019, 06:04 AM
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Are your salon 2’s bass managed? Mine are croosed over at 80hz in both home theater and 2-channel listening (with a JL CR-1 for 2-channel). I’ve always been curious to what degree the “power hungriness” of Salons is reduced when subs take the load below 80hz. I like my JC 1s, but not the heat they put out. Always wondered how they would do with a lower powered stereo amp considering they are bass managed and that should in theory make them more efficient. Interested to hear your results comparing one vs two bi-amped/bridged AHB2’s driving your salons.
For me, the question has REQ and to some extent PEQ always been a cost/benefit. With Dirac, I tried setting the curtain at 25Hz and found that there was a very clear change in the imaging between and clarity with Dirac engaged. Less so, with PEQ engaged.
The XMC-1 S/N in Stereo Reference mode (volume control only) is 123 dB (A weighted). With processing engaged, it is 106 dB (A weighted).

I am blessed with a very good room (it has been measured). As a result, I run both movies and music full range.
If you measure a typical room with a program like REW, you will likely see huge swings in response above the transition frequency.
In 1/2 hour, I was able to flatten the base using REW and the XMC-1 PEQ. In the end, I felt it was not dramatic enough.
Images attached.

Currently, I am using a single AHB2 to drive the Salon2's but I did a quick experiment using the clip indicators and disconnecting the bass section. The difference was 1 dB. So, if you are looking for power efficiency, this is not the way. I have not clipped the AHB2 watching movies that are a loud as I want them.

Additional AHB2's are on order.

- Rich
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post #14969 of 15535 Old 05-03-2019, 06:04 AM
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Revel Owners Thread

If you are setting your two speakers to full range, what exactly are you expecting the ARC room correction to do for 2-channel? I’m just curious. I would think that if you had a subwoofer (or two) you would do your bass management through the sub and not through your receiver. I wouldn’t set a crossover to your towers at all.


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post #14970 of 15535 Old 05-03-2019, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Painter View Post
Suggestions are much appreciated - very grateful for this forum! The Voice 2 will be here on Wednesday and I should have access to an A31 by the end of next week. Audessey, in conjunction with the AV8805 IOS app, has been very effective in correcting acoustical imperfections in our 7.4.2 theater. I've no doubt of the same outcome once re-calibrated with the Revel speakers. For two channel listening however - which is the whole point of the upgrade - I'd prefer no equalization take place. Call it purist or whatever - I want to hear high quality sourced audio rendered through to the Studio 2s without any flavoring...
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Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
Tend to agree on 2 channel playback. Anthem ARC used for 7.1 but for 2 channel, the front floorstanders play full range without correction. The room was built to an acoustic analysis and 3 days of listening and positioning the floorstanders to their optimal location.
It has nothing to do with being a purist; it simply illogical to regard "correcting acoustical imperfections" as anything less than a universal tool given that the equipment, room and listener are all constant. That is, either the correction is a real correction or it is not. The number of transistor junctions involved is irrelevant since, these days, all such processes are in the same DSP firmware which, too, is a constant.
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