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post #15151 of 15292 Old 06-22-2019, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
Dr. Toole, I'm sure you have already answered this question in this sprawling thread at least once but there is no nested searching option I know of.

What are your views on digital room correction?
I know that various Harman subsidiarys like Lexicon & JBL Synthesis use certain forms of it.
However I do remember a white paper from some years back by Sean Olive.
I do not remember if you were a contributor or not, but the summary seemed to me that at that time, room correction,
at least among the software evaluated was considered pretty much superflous.
AFAIR, 3 systems were tested, Anthem ARC, Audyessy.
Can't remember the 3rd but the only other one I recall from that time was Trinnov.

Just curious.
Thanks
The following is a stock answer to your FAQ which one day will be added to the companion website to my book: www.routledge.com/cw/toole. It is open access, no need to buy the book.

The complete answer is in many pages in my book, but to reduce the argument to its elements there are four facts to remember.
First, an omni mic and analyzer are not equivalent to two ears and a brain. Rooms curves show evidence of phenomena that are not problems for binaural hearing humans. Equalizing these phenomena can degrade good loudspeakers.
Second, from comprehensive anechoic data on a loudspeaker (the spinorama for example) one can predict with good accuracy the steady state room curve in a typically reflective room. However, the reverse is not true. The anechoic spinorama can identify good or bad loudspeakers - this capability is seriously compromised if in-room measurements are all that is possible.
Third, a loudspeaker that is not flat on-axis but which has fairly constant directivity as a function of frequency can benefit from in-room equalization, but in order to know that one needs comprehensive anechoic data. If one had such data, the optimum equalization (above the transition frequency) would be based on the anechoic data, not a room curve. Also, if one had the anechoic data, one should not have purchased the loudspeaker to begin with.
Fourth, about 30% of our overall opinion of sound quality is attributable to bass performance - not only of the loudspeaker, but of the individual room acoustics through which it is communicated to listeners. EQ is one tool to improve the situation, but it can only work for one listener unless room modes/standing waves have been attenuated by proper use of multiple subs. This strategy is discussed in tiresome detail in Chapter 8. Steady-state room curves are the metric for this part of the frequency range and it should be smooth. Tilt, if any, is a matter of taste for the program being played. The "circle of confusion" is especially active in this part of the frequency range so a bass tone control is useful, especially if one enjoys older recordings.

Harman has spinorama data on its loudspeakers and therefore can anticipate the shape of the expected room curve above the transition frequency – somewhere around 400-500 Hz in small rooms. In these cases it is possible to interpret curves measured in a customer’s listening room. Over this frequency range equalization of small fluctuations should be avoided as they are most likely evidence of non-minimum-phase acoustical interference – not correctable by equalization, but capable of degrading the sound from well-designed loudspeakers. Only broadband “tone control” operations should be used. Addressing bass frequency issues is different, requiring much higher resolution.

Room EQ/calibration schemes are widely used these days, even in inexpensive receivers. Here I will quote from one of my papers: Toole, F. E. (2015). “The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., vol. 63, pp.512-541. This is an open-access paper available to non-members at www.aes.org http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=17839
There I say at the end of the first paragraph: “The implication is that by making in-situ measurements and manipulating the input signal so that the room curve matches a predetermined target shape, imperfections in (unspecified) loudspeakers and (unspecified) rooms are measured and repaired. It is an enticing marketing story.” Most manufacturers now feel the need to incorporate some form of room EQ in their products, but from my perspective the challenge is to prevent them from degrading good loudspeakers. In the absence of comprehensive and accurate anechoic data on the loudspeakers any such equalization operation is a gamble.

Reading the instruction manuals for some of the more popular EQ algorithms one finds instructions suggesting that if, after equalization, the customer is not pleased with the sound, one should open a user-friendly window allowing one to modify the target curve. To what? Based on what? If it is how it sounds playing commercial music then one is including the circle of confusion into the EQ – it is not any longer a “calibration” but a tone control exercise that, once set, is fixed for all future programs. Dumb! Tone controls are definitely useful, but they need to be accessible for change according to program needs.
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post #15152 of 15292 Old 06-22-2019, 05:07 PM
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Wow!
Dr. Toole; the fount that keeps on flowing.
Required reading.

You addressed several of my thoughts that I never asked.
Particularly the last paragraph.
I just acquired a pre-amp where I can quickly test the with\without RC.

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post #15153 of 15292 Old 06-22-2019, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
Wow!
I just acquired a pre-amp where I can quickly test the with\without RC.
Hi Milt,


Which pre amp did you get and how do you like it? (thinking about getting a pre to use for two channel)



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post #15154 of 15292 Old 06-22-2019, 06:36 PM
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Got a black Anthem STR Pre-Amp for my 2-channel system.
Sadly it will be a couple months before I can evaluate it.
Was using an Anthem D2 for Pre-Amp.
The deal came up and I couldn't refuse although I wasn't planning on buying one for a few months.
Picking up next weekend. No hurry.
The STR has features that no other 2-channel has that I like.

Their power amps are especially underrated, imo

 
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post #15155 of 15292 Old 06-23-2019, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Locoliberty View Post
Revel m106 vs M126be thoughts?

I am currently running M16 with modified crossovers(it was fun at worse, but I liked the sound change), the rest of my system is described in my sig. I enjoy them but want something better. My (no longer local) sales guy seems to be wanted to off some demos for unreasonably good prices to me, he's a friend so we keep in touch.

M106 for $750pair
M126be for 1500pair

No matter the discount is the M126be worth the double in price? I dont have anywhere near by that I could demo them side by side to get any real idea. As well as, reviews on the M126be are sparse so I cant compare them very well.
I'd love to replace my front three M106's with the M126Be's, but sadly this range is non-existant in the UK. It doesn't help that Harman decided to make changes to the distribution in the UK. All Revel speakers used to be distributed by Karma AV, but they now only supply the architectural ranges and everything else was moved to Arcam shortly after Harman acquired them. Since this change, Revel speakers have become even more obscure. Searching online will show a very limited range of Revel speakers available from just 3 dealers in the UK. This is not good enough for such a great brand. A number of other brands have been somewhat ignored in the UK over the years, owing to the manufacturer or distributor not putting any effort into establishing their brand here, I don't understand why.

What was the difference with the crossover change and what exactly was involved? I'm assuming it can also be done with the S16. When I get the opportunity to replace the front three, I would love to experiment with trying the M106 drive units in the S16 cabinet.
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post #15156 of 15292 Old 06-23-2019, 09:25 AM
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Does anyone have any advice on the orientation of a wall speaker being used as an Atmos speaker?

What I mean by this is should I have the tweeter or the midrange at the top closest to the ceiling?

I will be suspending Revel S16 speakers from a steel bar, making sure that the speakers are toed in and angled to be firing directly at the MLP.
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post #15157 of 15292 Old 06-23-2019, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Revel Alliance View Post
Does anyone have any advice on the orientation of a wall speaker being used as an Atmos speaker?

What I mean by this is should I have the tweeter or the midrange at the top closest to the ceiling?

I will be suspending Revel S16 speakers from a steel bar, making sure that the speakers are toed in and angled to be firing directly at the MLP.


I reverse bookshelf speakers (upside down) when mounting on wall near ceilings where I can. I have some heights in my main system which prevents that.


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post #15158 of 15292 Old 06-25-2019, 04:54 AM
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What was the difference with the crossover change and what exactly was involved? I'm assuming it can also be done with the S16. When I get the opportunity to replace the front three, I would love to experiment with trying the M106 drive units in the S16 cabinet.


I replaced the woofer capacitor with one of higher quality(or just more expensive, depends who you ask) and replaced the low quality sand-cast resistors with higher quality low-inductive resistors(order says non-inductive, but they technically have some inductance because of the type just way lower than sand cast). Matching wasn't exact, but my electrical engineer friends said it wouldn't matter since the values were so close. It cost maybe 70 bucks total for both. Unless youre doing another set of m16s then your resistors and caps will likely be different.

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post #15159 of 15292 Old 06-25-2019, 08:34 AM
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Is the infamous C763L a rebadged Infinity ERS 610 (now discontinued) with a price bump?

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post #15160 of 15292 Old 06-26-2019, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Been busy, and out of town, and by and large figure if someone has decided upon a sub (or whatever) it's not worth arguing about. And tired of being called a shill for the companies I like. Not that it has stopped me from posting anyway...



I have not heard SVS. My Rythmiks equaled or bettered the subwoofers I had auditioned in the $3k to $5k range (per sub) and their filter and phase controls provided plenty of integration control for me (albeit a more manual process, but I am used to that). I bought them to integrate with my Magnepan MG-IIIa's, notoriously difficult to integrate well, and have not felt the need to change after switching to Revel Salon2's.



No worries, YMMV and all that jazz - Don
I always wanted to learn what it means to say that one speakers blends well with subs while others don't. What is about an speaker that is important for it to blend well?

DonH or others, could you elaborate?
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post #15161 of 15292 Old 06-26-2019, 09:28 AM
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Is the infamous C763L a rebadged Infinity ERS 610 (now discontinued) with a price bump?
Tweeter is different in the 763 and the weight has been reduced, so there are probably other changes as well. As for the price bump, the ERS 610 was $599 in 2007. Not much of a difference.

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post #15162 of 15292 Old 06-26-2019, 03:11 PM
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Is the infamous C763L a rebadged Infinity ERS 610 (now discontinued) with a price bump?
Now that’s ol’ Glass Half Full spirit Mike!
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post #15163 of 15292 Old 06-26-2019, 03:13 PM
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Ah so “half full” you agree.

It certainly reduces R&D cost.

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post #15164 of 15292 Old 06-27-2019, 02:20 PM
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I always wanted to learn what it means to say that one speakers blends well with subs while others don't. What is about an speaker that is important for it to blend well?

DonH or others, could you elaborate?
Please comment.
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post #15165 of 15292 Old 06-27-2019, 05:19 PM
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Please comment.
I personally find that this is down to the quality of the subwoofer and how well the system is calibrated.

There are subwoofers that boost certain frequencies, to cover up the lack of range it has to offer.

I'm trying very hard not to mention any particular brands, as I don't want to upset anyone or get into any debate.

There are enough decent designs that do not suffer from such pitfalls, but obviously they are not budget options.
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post #15166 of 15292 Old 06-27-2019, 06:15 PM
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I always wanted to learn what it means to say that one speakers blends well with subs while others don't. What is about an speaker that is important for it to blend well?

DonH or others, could you elaborate?
Probably the topic of another thread... I suspect much of it is simply subjective but there are a few things I have found (consider all as IMO and bear in mind speaker design is not my area of expertise):

  1. Crossover frequency and radiation pattern. Speakers requiring a high crossover frequency lead to subwoofer localization, limiting where you can put the sub and maintain a good stereo image. Speakers like planar dipoles and line sources can exacerbate the issue because the sound stage changes as you move from the panel (or whatever) to a conventional sub.
  2. Speakers with good transient response that settle quickly benefit from a sub that does not "ring" and "muddy" the bass by adding sound that wasn't there in the recording. A "boomy" sub can corrupt the lower bass of a "tight" speaker that has better-damped response.
  3. The crossover is not a brick wall with the amplitude of frequencies on either side immediately dropping to zero. With a typical 12 dB/octave slope the signal is still fairly loud as much as an octave above and below the crossover frequency. So again it is better if the frequency response (magnitude and phase) and sound quality is similar between mains and sub(s) so the sound continues to "blend". Pushing the mains near the LF limit can cause higher distortion and may impact blending. This could potentially be worse with ported mains since they exhibit rapid fall-off and high phase shift at and below the port tune. If the slopes don't match (above and below) you'll get frequency response variations; if the phase is not matched at the crossover frequency, or equivalently the delay is wrong, you'll get a hole. I cross my subs well (octave-plus) above the mains' LF -3 dB point and for an 80 Hz crossover that means the mains need to have good performance at 40 Hz and below. A speaker with 40 Hz -3 dB is likely starting to distort significantly at 40 Hz let alone below that; running a 40 Hz crossover with such a speaker has never worked well for me.
  4. There are of course obvious things like output capability and such -- if you like it loud and push your mains to 100+ dB then a sub that only provides 100 dB is not going to keep up (look at equal-loudness curves -- you need a lot more in the bass region to sound as loud as the midrange, as much as 10~30 dB more).

It's been a long week, all I have off the top of my head for now. I imagine others will chime in. A lot of these are pretty subtle to me unless things are way off (very high distortion, very limited output, etc.)

FWIWFM - Don
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post #15167 of 15292 Old 06-28-2019, 04:40 PM
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I always wanted to learn what it means to say that one speakers blends well with subs while others don't. What is about an speaker that is important for it to blend well?

DonH or others, could you elaborate?
It's all about how close the slopes of each speaker interact and combine into 1 response. This pic below is a perfect 4th order crossover, if your sub and main follow this then they should sum perfectly and create the perfect flat sum that you see.



Of course, in the real world it's not so easy. You have room modes making a mess of both your mains and your subs so you have to deal with them first. Then you have most receivers using a 2nd order high pass on the mains which isn't the 4th order slope shown in the pic, they're designed to combine with a sealed speakers acoustic 2nd order rollloff at 80Hz (THX spec) and combine to that 4th order slope but most speakers these days are ported so that usually doesn't happen.

In my opinion, there isn't really a certain speaker or sub that is going to nicely combine in your room without doing the work to make it happen. What I do is measure my mains and then use REW to EQ them to be as close to the ideal 4th order high pass as I can. Then I measure my mains + subs and EQ the subs to sum flat with the mains. Finally, I measure the subs alone to make sure they aren't deviating from their ideal 4th order low pass that much. I can integrate pretty much any speaker with any sub doing this.
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post #15168 of 15292 Old 06-28-2019, 07:34 PM
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Naive question here. All I have done to this point is use Anthem's room correction do its thing. It sounds like seamless integration to me. Am I leaving some performance on the table?

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post #15169 of 15292 Old 06-28-2019, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
It's all about how close the slopes of each speaker interact and combine into 1 response. This pic below is a perfect 4th order crossover, if your sub and main follow this then they should sum perfectly and create the perfect flat sum that you see.







Of course, in the real world it's not so easy. You have room modes making a mess of both your mains and your subs so you have to deal with them first. Then you have most receivers using a 2nd order high pass on the mains which isn't the 4th order slope shown in the pic, they're designed to combine with a sealed speakers acoustic 2nd order rollloff at 80Hz (THX spec) and combine to that 4th order slope but most speakers these days are ported so that usually doesn't happen.



In my opinion, there isn't really a certain speaker or sub that is going to nicely combine in your room without doing the work to make it happen. What I do is measure my mains and then use REW to EQ them to be as close to the ideal 4th order high pass as I can. Then I measure my mains + subs and EQ the subs to sum flat with the mains. Finally, I measure the subs alone to make sure they aren't deviating from their ideal 4th order low pass that much. I can integrate pretty much any speaker with any sub doing this.
Makes a lot of sense.

I often try to use my speakers alone to make sure they have 4th order decay. I can use natural fall off of the speaker freq response and AVR's high pass filter to accentuate and achieve that. I try to get that away from the port bump.

Then use subwoofer's 2nd order filter and AVR's 2nd order filter to try to achieve 4th order decay for the sub.

But as you said , often due to room modes, poor sub placement, and my lack of skill, this does not always work. Then I do the best I can.

I was just intrigued when @Don 50 mentioned that some speakers are easier to integrate than others. To be fair, he did provide his reasonings and they all make sense.
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post #15170 of 15292 Old 06-28-2019, 08:07 PM
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Makes a lot of sense.

I often try to use my speakers alone to make sure they have 4th order decay. I can use natural fall off of the speaker freq response and AVR's high pass filter to accentuate and achieve that. I try to get that away from the port bump.

Then use subwoofer's 2nd order filter and AVR's 2nd order filter to try to achieve 4th order decay for the sub.
Just an FYI, most receivers are 2nd order on the mains and 4th order on the sub, so you're possibly cascading the filters and cutting the sub off way too sharply. Unless you use a unique receiver/processor, in that case what you're doing makes perfect sense.
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post #15171 of 15292 Old 06-28-2019, 08:36 PM
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Just an FYI, most receivers are 2nd order on the mains and 4th order on the sub, so you're possibly cascading the filters and cutting the sub off way too sharply. Unless you use a unique receiver/processor, in that case what you're doing makes perfect sense.
My old Yamaha had the 2nd order sub slope as measured by REW. But hopefully the new Denon 3500 (still in the box) will have 4th order. In that case no cascading needed.
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post #15172 of 15292 Old 06-30-2019, 05:15 PM
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Got a black Anthem STR Pre-Amp for my 2-channel system.
Sadly it will be a couple months before I can evaluate it.
Was using an Anthem D2 for Pre-Amp.
The deal came up and I couldn't refuse although I wasn't planning on buying one for a few months.
Picking up next weekend. No hurry.
The STR has features that no other 2-channel has that I like.

Their power amps are especially underrated, imo
There are some nice features in it. The dual channel sub outs are of interest to me. Not sure how that would work with the HT mode. Will be curious for your thoughts on the sounds with Revels when you've had a chance to hear it.

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post #15173 of 15292 Old 06-30-2019, 05:23 PM
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McIntosh with Revels?

I've been using my Revel's in a home theater system (see below). It can sound pretty good with 2 channel, but I have heard better.

I'm curious if any of you have used (or heard) McIntosh gear (SS or Tube or combo) with Revels and what your thoughts were?

Do you use it currently? Was it better than what you had?

Did you not like it? If so, why and what did you ultimately prefer.

My room is fairly large and open. 19x26x8-10ft cathedral ceiling. Open to entry, dining room, kitchen and wall of glass on the other wall.

I'm looking for that sound you get where the band or concert is 'in the room' with great soundstage and depth. I don't really listen that loudly or to tons of bass. Vocals and instrument accuracy are more important to deep and massive bass.

Would love everyone's thoughts.

Thanks,

Dave.

Dolby Atmos 5.1.4 - Revel M126Be's, C205, M106's - Rythmik F12SE - Revel C763L's
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post #15174 of 15292 Old 06-30-2019, 05:31 PM
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McIntosh should work just fine. Great amps, well built and cosmetically appealing.

Probably more bang for your buck using ATI.
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Mike Miles
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post #15175 of 15292 Old 06-30-2019, 05:37 PM
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There are some nice features in it. The dual channel sub outs are of interest to me. Not sure how that would work with the HT mode. Will be curious for your thoughts on the sounds with Revels when you've had a chance to hear it.
Dave
I will definitely follow-up.
Unfortunately, got a call from the dealer and Anthem sent a silver one. I ordered black. sigh
Black is back-ordered so who knows when I'll see it.

ARC2\Genesis support for subs is better than original ARC as it can do phase etc.
I went with the new platform for the increased processing power & finally USB & Ethernet connections plus
I've always been pleased with the Anthem products I own.
It doesn't hurt that the STR gear looks great
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post #15176 of 15292 Old 06-30-2019, 06:09 PM
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I've been using my Revel's in a home theater system (see below). It can sound pretty good with 2 channel, but I have heard better.

I'm curious if any of you have used (or heard) McIntosh gear (SS or Tube or combo) with Revels and what your thoughts were?

Do you use it currently? Was it better than what you had?

Did you not like it? If so, why and what did you ultimately prefer.

My room is fairly large and open. 19x26x8-10ft cathedral ceiling. Open to entry, dining room, kitchen and wall of glass on the other wall.

I'm looking for that sound you get where the band or concert is 'in the room' with great soundstage and depth. I don't really listen that loudly or to tons of bass. Vocals and instrument accuracy are more important to deep and massive bass.

Would love everyone's thoughts.

Thanks,

Dave.
A 2nd on mmiles ATI recommendation.
Anthem makes awesome amps as well.
The Benchmark amp is excellent as well
MAC is certainly solid great gear but I feel that you do pay a premium for that brand among others.
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post #15177 of 15292 Old 06-30-2019, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 340z View Post
I've been using my Revel's in a home theater system (see below). It can sound pretty good with 2 channel, but I have heard better.

I'm curious if any of you have used (or heard) McIntosh gear (SS or Tube or combo) with Revels and what your thoughts were?

Do you use it currently? Was it better than what you had?

Did you not like it? If so, why and what did you ultimately prefer.

My room is fairly large and open. 19x26x8-10ft cathedral ceiling. Open to entry, dining room, kitchen and wall of glass on the other wall.

I'm looking for that sound you get where the band or concert is 'in the room' with great soundstage and depth. I don't really listen that loudly or to tons of bass. Vocals and instrument accuracy are more important to deep and massive bass.

Would love everyone's thoughts.

Thanks,

Dave.
A McIntosh MC452 was the amp driving a pair of Salon2’s when I auditioned and purchased my Salon2’s. The combination sounded good enough to compel me to pull the trigger on the speakers. However, I felt that my ATI 6007 sounded just as good the MC452, so I stayed with that for awhile. I subsequently purchased a pair of Mark Levinson No.536’s which I felt sounded better than both. The 536’s are now gone (I sometimes miss them), but I live quite happily with the ATI 6007.

That’s my sighted, subjective input. McIntosh resells well, but I went with the ATI and have never regretted it. Not even when moving it (100+ lbs).
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Last edited by Karl Maga; 06-30-2019 at 09:35 PM.
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post #15178 of 15292 Old 07-02-2019, 05:16 AM
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I'm a new owner of a pair of Studio2 speakers and of course my cables will not permit the rear panel doors to close. Not really a big deal, but is there an easy, non-destructive way to remove the panel doors? I don't want to damage anything so if removal is not readily accomplished, I will leave things alone. Also, the speakers came with extra replacement washers for the rear door, would someone tell me how these washers are used? TIA

Playback: Ayre QX-5 Twenty, Ayre KX-5 Twenty, Ayre VX-5 Twenty, Revel Studio2; Source: Synology NAS, Sonore opticalModule (2X), Sonore ultraRendu (MPD), Sonore ultraDigital (S/PDIF out to DAC); RealTraps acoustic products, Iconoclast Cables by Belden
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post #15179 of 15292 Old 07-02-2019, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by tortuga_Bob View Post
I'm a new owner of a pair of Studio2 speakers and of course my cables will not permit the rear panel doors to close. Not really a big deal, but is there an easy, non-destructive way to remove the panel doors? I don't want to damage anything so if removal is not readily accomplished, I will leave things alone. Also, the speakers came with extra replacement washers for the rear door, would someone tell me how these washers are used? TIA
They can be removed but it is trick. I lift them and gently tilt out. Don't force them.


- Rich

Oppo UPD-205 x 2 | UPD-203 | Sonica DAC | Emotiva XMC-1 (v3) | Revel Salon2s, Voice2, Studio2s | Benchmark AHB2 x 4 | ATI AT522NC | Velodyne HGS-15 | LG 77C9 | Lumagen 2020 | HDFury Vertex x 2
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post #15180 of 15292 Old 07-02-2019, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tortuga_Bob View Post
I'm a new owner of a pair of Studio2 speakers and of course my cables will not permit the rear panel doors to close. Not really a big deal, but is there an easy, non-destructive way to remove the panel doors? I don't want to damage anything so if removal is not readily accomplished, I will leave things alone. Also, the speakers came with extra replacement washers for the rear door, would someone tell me how these washers are used? TIA
How are you liking the Studio2's so far?
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