Revel Owners Thread - Page 510 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15271 of 16139 Old 07-20-2019, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Karl Maga View Post
You might be right! That’s a strongly stated opinion, surely that level of conviction is born of experience. What amps did you compare?
I'm mainly speaking from experience comparing headphone amps (I know it's apples and oranges, but I think the same concept applies). People in the headphone world have a tendency to greatly over exaggerate the differences between various headphone amps. The only audible differences are generally due to impedance mismatches. But similarly rated amps should sound the same. And I'm assuming the same goes in the speaker amp world. But I'm just getting started in the speaker + power amp / receiver world, maybe it's all completely different (but I doubt it, it's just science).

It's easy to mistake something that's slightly louder as more detail, or more spaciousness, etc.
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post #15272 of 16139 Old 07-20-2019, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
I don't. But to each his own...



IME/IMO output impedance and noise floor tend to be the biggest distinguishing parameters among SS amps. Yes, many of them sound the same. I have no problem picking out a tube from a SS amp even at low levels and in a DBT.
Yeah, a tube amp will definitely sound different than a SS amp But otherwise between similarly rated amps I would be surprised if I could hear a difference. You could maybe objectively measure a difference, but you probably wouldn't hear it (subjective). But yeah, would be interesting to see a correctly executed double blind test between various popular amps (and let's include receivers as well, I'm not convinced that a dedicated amp will sound much better, if at all, than a good receiver, power ratings and such being equal).

It's like some of the claims that this amp/receiver sounds warm, vs that one sounds bright. That just doesn't make sense, that would then just be a badly designed amplifier that's deliberately introducing distortion and altering the signal. All it should be doing is, well, amplifying the input signal and passing it on to the output stage as cleanly as possible.
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post #15273 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by sakete View Post
t's like some of the claims that this amp/receiver sounds warm, vs that one sounds bright. That just doesn't make sense, that would then just be a badly designed amplifier that's deliberately introducing distortion and altering the signal. All it should be doing is, well, amplifying the input signal and passing it on to the output stage as cleanly as possible.
There is more to effect the sound in an AVR than the amp.
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post #15274 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
There is more to effect the sound in an AVR than the amp.
Yes, but when all processing is disabled they should all essentially sound the same.
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post #15275 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by sakete View Post
Yeah, a tube amp will definitely sound different than a SS amp But otherwise between similarly rated amps I would be surprised if I could hear a difference. You could maybe objectively measure a difference, but you probably wouldn't hear it (subjective). But yeah, would be interesting to see a correctly executed double blind test between various popular amps (and let's include receivers as well, I'm not convinced that a dedicated amp will sound much better, if at all, than a good receiver, power ratings and such being equal).

It's like some of the claims that this amp/receiver sounds warm, vs that one sounds bright. That just doesn't make sense, that would then just be a badly designed amplifier that's deliberately introducing distortion and altering the signal. All it should be doing is, well, amplifying the input signal and passing it on to the output stage as cleanly as possible.
I've done plenty of DBTs in the past along with all the measurements but this argument is both a no-win scenario and out of scope of this thread.

IME/IMO it is just too general an argument that leaves out too many variables.

Headphones take much less power and generally have higher average impedance and lower impedance excursions than many speakers so are less sensitive to amplifier output impedance. Note "less" does not mean "insensitive".

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post #15276 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I have level matched and compared the AT522NC to the At4002 and (IMO) they are distinguishable.
Here is my take on them:

https://www.audioholics.com/amplifie...ews/ati-at4002

The AT500NC amps are contenders should my Sunfire (circa 1999) ever die that is driving the Revel M20/C20's.
It could be that I am used to the class A/B sound and I know many that prefer NCore.

I had transformer hum with most amps, that is gone with the AHB2's.

BTW, there are a raft on new ATI amps coming out:

https://forums.audioholics.com/forum.../#post-1327334

- Rich


I had 2 Parasound amps and 6 months ago went with 2 channel ATI 522 series amp driving my front Revel F206s;

I performed several informal A/B tests vs Parasound Class AB and could barely detect any difference. And ATI comes with 7 year transferable warranty plus Purchased an open box model & received 20% off. Runs nice & cool and only about 40 lbs & plenty of power!
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post #15277 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
Agreed.


The Benchmarks are a LOT easier to manipulate than the large ATI amps, which is a huge plus if an amp ever have to go out for repair or if you just want to pull the gear out of the rack for cleaning / reorganizing. Even with my Salon 2's, I'm not finding the reduction in power switching from the AT6007's to Benchmark AHB2's to be an issue as I can still play everything as loudly as I want with no hint of clipping.



This isn't a concern with the AT4000 series amps, but the AT6000 amps must be shipped via freight service once you configure them beyond a few channels as the shipping weight exceeds the FedEx and UPS ground service weight limit of 150lbs. Freight service coast to coast for an AT6000 series amp is about $500-600 if you shop around or a LOT more ($1000 or more) if you go with FedEx or UPS freight.

while not fun to move around a 4007 (or 6007) there is something to be said to have that many channels in one box.

I’d love to try the benchmarks, but problem is if I liked them simply don’t have the space in my stand to fill out 7 - 11 channels worth of benchmarks.
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post #15278 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
while not fun to move around a 4007 (or 6007) there is something to be said to have that many channels in one box.

I’d love to try the benchmarks, but problem is if I liked them simply don’t have the space in my stand to fill out 7 - 11 channels worth of benchmarks.

IMO, ATI has it figured out. They offer Class A/B and D in multichannel configurations at reasonable price points. Other amp companies (Benchmark, Bryston, Parasound etc) should take note.
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post #15279 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
IMO, ATI has it figured out. They offer Class A/B and D in multichannel configurations at reasonable price points. Other amp companies (Benchmark, Bryston, Parasound etc) should take note.
The etc should definitely include Mark Levison.
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post #15280 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
while not fun to move around a 4007 (or 6007) there is something to be said to have that many channels in one box.

I’d love to try the benchmarks, but problem is if I liked them simply don’t have the space in my stand to fill out 7 - 11 channels worth of benchmarks.
Factoring in space for airflow, 4 Benchmark AHB2's, enough for 8 channels, only take slightly more rack space than a single AT6007; 6
AHB2's would take slightly less space than 2 AT6000 series chassis. I went with the rack mount version and left a single rack space between each, which Benchmark told me wasn't really necessary. My one complaint with the Benchmarks is that selling them only in a 2 channel configuration means either wasting a channel when used in a surround system or bridging/bi-amping at least one channel. I opted to go with 5 AHB2's and bi-amp the front 3 speakers. I may experiment with bridging the front 3 instead at some point.


My major complaint with the ATI amps was reliability. Swapping amp channel modules is a huge PITA in a fully loaded AT6007 (having done it several times, I'm well qualified to say that...). One of my AT6007's blew capacitors (or at least I think they were capacitors - it was a type I'm not familiar with that is a black wafer shape about .25" thick and about 1" diameter) on the trigger board - rather than send a new trigger board, ATI replaced that amp with a brand new one after 3 years of use and took care of the return freight to get the damaged amp back to them. So I ultimately can't complain about their customer support, but they do move at a glacial pace - each time I ran into a problem with one of the amps it took a few months for them to send replacement parts and required gentle reminder nudges to keep things moving along.
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post #15281 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 03:42 PM
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Benchmark AHB2 100W/ch 3,000 = 1,500/channel

ATI AT522NC 200W/ch 2,195 = 1,100/ channel

8 channels of Benchmark = 12,000

8 channels of ATI = AT528 NC = 4,595 = 575/ch

Helps to keep thing in perspective, more apples to apples.

ATI doesn't make a 100 W/channel amp.

Closest ATI comparison to Benchmark re: cost per channel is the AT4002, 2 channels, Class A/B for 2995. It has 200 W/ch, double the power of the Benchmark.

FYI:

Bryston 3B 3 (Cubed) = 200 W/ch costs 5,495.

Mark Levinson No534 = 250 W/ch costs 20,000
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post #15282 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Benchmark AHB2 100W/ch $3,000 = $1,500/channel


ATI AT522NC 200W/ch $2,195 = $1,100/ channel


8 channels of Benchmark = $12,000


8 channels of ATI = AT528 NC = $4,595 = $575/ch


Helps to keep thing in perspective, more apples to apples.


ATI doesn't even make a 100 W/channel amp.


Closest comparison to Benchmark comparing cost per channel is the AT4002, 2 channels, Class A/B for $2995. It has 200 W/ch, double the power of the Benchmark.
Rex, there's a lot more to an amp than power. The Benchmark AHB2 has plenty of power to drive Revel Salon 2's as loudly as any reasonable person would want to listen to them. @RichB and I didn't say the Benchmarks are the least expensive option, but they are excellent amps. I liked the AT6007's quite a bit when they worked, but I just couldn't put up with the ongoing hardware issues with them.
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post #15283 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
Rex, there's a lot more to an amp than power. The Benchmark AHB2 has plenty of power to drive Revel Salon 2's as loudly as any reasonable person would want to listen to them. @RichB and I didn't say the Benchmarks are the least expensive option, but they are excellent amps. I liked the AT6007's quite a bit when they worked, but I just couldn't put up with the ongoing hardware issues with them.

I understand that. I've been in the high end and pro audio business since 1971. I bought my first system when I graduated from high school. Owned and/or used a lot of amps since then. I'm just putting out cost information. I would love to get my hands on a Benchmark amp. I hope I don't have reliability issues with my ATI and sorry to hear you did. How long ago was that?

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post #15284 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 04:54 PM
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ATI has a good reputation. I’ve heard excellent comments on the class D models.

I wonder what a Crown I Tech would do.
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post #15285 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 05:50 PM
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I understand that. I've been in the high end and pro audio business since 1971. I bought my first system when I graduated from high school. Owned and/or used a lot of amps since then. I'm just putting out cost information. I would love to get my hands on a Benchmark amp. I hope I don't have reliability issues with my ATI and sorry to hear you did. How long ago was that?
The ATI amps were purchased about 3 years ago, shortly after the AT6000 series came out. @RichB and I had issues with them right from the start. The initial trigger boards simply didn't work correctly; I don't recall the specifics but could track them down in email history if anyone wants more details. ATI sent us updated trigger boards that we installed ourselves, which still didn't work correctly and later sent us a firmware programmer to update the firmware which finally got the trigger board functionality fixed. I had a bad amp module early on, and ATI sent me a replacement to swap in. I later had a couple of additional bad amp modules that were swapped out. Most recently (several months ago), I had the catastrophic failure of the trigger board and ATI replaced the amp. At that point I had had enough and decided to switch to the Benchmark amps. Other than being slow to get replacement parts shipped, I have no complaints with ATI's service, but I want to use my system rather than spend a ton of time diagnosing and fixing problems.


I realize that ATI sells lots of amps under their name and rebranded under numerous other brands and my experience is likely (hopefully) atypical, but I would hope that any reasonable person can understand why I decided to move on. That said, based on the serial numbers, they don't sell too many AT6007's as the serial numbers on my original amps from 3 years ago and the brand new one they built a few months ago were about 35 apart, so I suspect they don't sell too many AT6000 series amps.

@RichB 's review on Audioholics has more detail on the trigger circuit issues we both ran into (me with a Denon AVP-A1HDCI at the time and him with an Emotiva XMC-1) when our amps initially arrived.
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post #15286 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
The ATI amps were purchased about 3 years ago, shortly after the AT6000 series came out. @RichB and I had issues with them right from the start. The initial trigger boards simply didn't work correctly; I don't recall the specifics but could track them down in email history if anyone wants more details. ATI sent us updated trigger boards that we installed ourselves, which still didn't work correctly and later sent us a firmware programmer to update the firmware which finally got the trigger board functionality fixed. I had a bad amp module early on, and ATI sent me a replacement to swap in. I later had a couple of additional bad amp modules that were swapped out. Most recently (several months ago), I had the catastrophic failure of the trigger board and ATI replaced the amp. At that point I had had enough and decided to switch to the Benchmark amps. Other than being slow to get replacement parts shipped, I have no complaints with ATI's service, but I want to use my system rather than spend a ton of time diagnosing and fixing problems.

I realize that ATI sells lots of amps under their name and rebranded under numerous other brands and my experience is likely (hopefully) atypical, but I would hope that any reasonable person can understand why I decided to move on. That said, based on the serial numbers, they don't sell too many AT6007's as the serial numbers on my original amps from 3 years ago and the brand new one they built a few months ago were about 35 apart, so I suspect they don't sell too many AT6000 series amps.
Thanks for that info. I'll pass it on to the rep to see if they are taking steps to rectify the problems. I think they would have learned from your experience and corrected the problem to avoid it with future customers. I've dealt with electronic repairs for decades and seen a lot of things. I did repair work on mixing consoles, tape machines, amps, microphones, etc for recording studios. Companies get bad parts from suppliers and have to sort out the problems to get back on track. Stuff happens as they say. Sounds like you and RichB got amps from the same run that had the same problems three years ago. If they haven't sold many in the past three years, they may still have the same trigger boards. That issue should have been resolved in my opinion.

I don't use the trigger in my amp so I shouldn't have that problem. Guess I'll find out if the AT4003 amp modules hold up. My amp is on many hours a day at a lower level for background music and run hard for at least a few hours to listen to music and movies at higher levels.

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post #15287 of 16139 Old 07-21-2019, 09:28 PM
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I’ve had my ATI 6007 since October 2014 - not a hint of trouble. I have always used a trigger. I’ve asked it to play at reference levels for all 7 channels simultaneously for countless hours. It has successfully answered the call to do so for seven B&W D2’s, and five Revel Ulima2’s + two Revel Performa Be’s.

And it’s done all this for a very reasonable price. Try it, you’ll like it! And the Revel speakers - well I recommend them too!
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post #15288 of 16139 Old 07-22-2019, 05:16 PM
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I can say I'm very happy with the ATI AT 4003. It is a very high quality product in both build and sound. I've pushed it to the point of seeing the clip light flicker and it sounded great, not a hint of strain or harshness. Very solid, smooth top end, tight punchy bass, holographic imaging in stereo. Every bit as good sounding and well built as the Bryston amps I have used for many years and less expensive. Really great product, I recommend them based on my experience as an owner. I don't know if they sound as good as the Levinson, I can't afford them either, lol. Maybe Harman will send me one so I can compare them, hint, hint.

The packaging to ship the amp is amazing. Two pieces of plywood in the box (top and bottom) to protect it. 15 pounds worth of box/packaging. I was shocked when I opened the box and unpacked it.

I saw this 4003 amp for sale on forums for a steal....wish I bought. glad you like.

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post #15289 of 16139 Old 07-23-2019, 05:17 AM
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The dynamics and detail of the Performa be series is incredible. still being blown away by the new bookshelf upgrade
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post #15290 of 16139 Old 07-23-2019, 01:56 PM
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Possible Upgrade from Definitive Technology Mythos series

Hello,

I am considering upgrading my 5.1 surround sound system which utilizes 5 Mythos 9's and a HSU 15" Sub. I use a Marantz SR5012 AVR to power the system.

I have never heard the Revels however I have read and heard great things about them...specifically the M106 and F206 speakers as well as the C205 and C208 centers.

Financially it is a step up and I want to make sure it is a worthy investment from the Mythos 9's which have been great speakers but missing something.

I do 70% movies and 30% music.

I feel like the wall mounted 9's are a little too bright and missing some of the mid-range in the music listening. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks,
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Hello,



I am considering upgrading my 5.1 surround sound system which utilizes 5 Mythos 9's and a HSU 15" Sub. I use a Marantz SR5012 AVR to power the system.



I have never heard the Revels however I have read and heard great things about them...specifically the M106 and F206 speakers as well as the C205 and C208 centers.



Financially it is a step up and I want to make sure it is a worthy investment from the Mythos 9's which have been great speakers but missing something.



I do 70% movies and 30% music.



I feel like the wall mounted 9's are a little too bright and missing some of the mid-range in the music listening. Any feedback would be appreciated.



Thanks,

PG55
I'd say try to demo the F36 vs the F206. If you think the additional $1.5K is worth it then go for Performas. I did the same, but decided that the difference in sound quality was very subtle and wasn't worth another $1.5K, so went for the F36. And they sound really really good, punch way above their price point.
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post #15292 of 16139 Old 07-23-2019, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sakete View Post
I'd say try to demo the F36 vs the F206. If you think the additional $1.5K is worth it then go for Performas. I did the same, but decided that the difference in sound quality was very subtle and wasn't worth another $1.5K, so went for the F36. And they sound really really good, punch way above their price point.
Thank you-Are you using them in a surround sound system or Stereo and are they efficient enough for a 100 watt per channel AVR?

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post #15293 of 16139 Old 07-23-2019, 03:55 PM
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Thank you-Are you using them in a surround sound system or Stereo and are they efficient enough for a 100 watt per channel AVR?
Stereo, and they're pretty efficient. 100W should be plenty. They do dip down as low as I think 3.9 ohms (impedance) at certain frequencies, so make sure your amp can handle that.
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post #15294 of 16139 Old 07-23-2019, 04:02 PM
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Stereo, and they're pretty efficient. 100W should be plenty. They do dip down as low as I think 3.9 ohms (impedance) at certain frequencies, so make sure your amp can handle that.
Thanks!

Couple more quick questions-are they very placement sensitive?

Do they need to away from the front wall by a certain distance?

Toed in or straight ahead?

Or are they pretty easy to position in a room.

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Sub Woofers-Paradigm Reference Millenia (2)
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post #15295 of 16139 Old 07-23-2019, 04:55 PM
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Thanks!



Couple more quick questions-are they very placement sensitive?



Do they need to away from the front wall by a certain distance?



Toed in or straight ahead?



Or are they pretty easy to position in a room.

All of those questions are room and personal taste dependent.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #15296 of 16139 Old 07-23-2019, 05:10 PM
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Thanks!



Couple more quick questions-are they very placement sensitive?



Do they need to away from the front wall by a certain distance?



Toed in or straight ahead?



Or are they pretty easy to position in a room.
I'll second wat russdawg said. Otherwise they have a pretty wide dispersion pattern, so the sound signature doesn't change too much within the listening window (Google the exact definition if you're curious). The rest will depend on your room, so not much I can say there.
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post #15297 of 16139 Old 07-23-2019, 09:34 PM
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Hello,

I am considering upgrading my 5.1 surround sound system which utilizes 5 Mythos 9's and a HSU 15" Sub. I use a Marantz SR5012 AVR to power the system.

I have never heard the Revels however I have read and heard great things about them...specifically the M106 and F206 speakers as well as the C205 and C208 centers.

Financially it is a step up and I want to make sure it is a worthy investment from the Mythos 9's which have been great speakers but missing something.

I do 70% movies and 30% music.

I feel like the wall mounted 9's are a little too bright and missing some of the mid-range in the music listening. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks,
PG55
I’ve never heard Mythos speakers so I can’t say how it would compare but I do have 4x F206’s and a C208 in a 5.1 setup. I’m extremely happy with them and would definitely recommend them.

I’m currently running them off a Denon X4500H and it seems perfectly fine so your Marantz should be fine too. I do plan to add a separate amp eventually though.
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post #15298 of 16139 Old 07-24-2019, 08:15 AM
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I’ve never heard Mythos speakers so I can’t say how it would compare but I do have 4x F206’s and a C208 in a 5.1 setup. I’m extremely happy with them and would definitely recommend them.

I’m currently running them off a Denon X4500H and it seems perfectly fine so your Marantz should be fine too. I do plan to add a separate amp eventually though.
Thanks-what size is your room?

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post #15299 of 16139 Old 07-24-2019, 10:21 AM
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Thanks-what size is your room?
The living room part is around 14’ x 15’, it’s completely open into the kitchen area though so the total space is about 14’ x 30’.
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post #15300 of 16139 Old 07-25-2019, 06:45 PM
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OT topic alert.

I have 2 Studios, just got an Anthem STR Pre-Amp.
Planning on getting 2 subs and positioning them near the rear wall.
Will re-position as needed but I'd prefer to have them flanking the MLP right\left.

The STR allows for 2 subs & has the option of running them stereo or mono.
Anyone have recommendation of which option?

I know that sound at 80Hz\below is non-directional.
I've never had that option previously.

System is 80% music but there is an OLED at play but I think I'm gonna go with a powered soundbar\sub for video content

 
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