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post #15301 of 15876 Old 07-25-2019, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
OT topic alert.

I have 2 Studios, just got an Anthem STR Pre-Amp.
Planning on getting 2 subs and positioning them near the rear wall.
Will re-position as needed but I'd prefer to have them flanking the MLP right\left.

The STR allows for 2 subs & has the option of running them stereo or mono.
Anyone have recommendation of which option?

I know that sound at 80Hz\below is non-directional.
I've never had that option previously.

System is 80% music but there is an OLED at play but I think I'm gonna go with a powered soundbar\sub for video content

I would run the subs in stereo since you have that option. Bass is omnidirectional in theory, but I have heard a lot of orchestral music live in concert halls and have recorded as much or more than I have heard live. When the double bass section is stage left (audience right), you hear those instruments on the right. I often used three mics across the front of the orchestra panned L/C/R, a technique C.R. Fine used for the Mercury Living Presence series of recordings. Later, Jack Renner used the same technique for Telarc. On CD recordings made from original master tapes, you clearly hear the double bass section on the right, not center or in the left channel. Other instruments with deep bass fundamentals are often not center stage (think large bass drum). On vinyl, you may hear bass more center, they had to sum bass to mono to avoid cutting the groove too wide on one side, it would cut into the adjacent groove and the playback stylus obviously couldn't track that.


http://www.preservationsound.com/?p=3939


Most pop/rock music has the kick drum and bass guitar panned center and there may not be a lot of deep bass on one side or the other, but some records have the whole drum kit panned to one side. Crazy stuff happened when things went from mono to stereo. Recording studios had three track tape recorders and L/C/R monitoring for a while. They had to mix to stereo, vinyl only had two channels.
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post #15302 of 15876 Old 07-25-2019, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I would run the subs in stereo since you have that option. Bass is omnidirectional in theory, but I have heard a lot of orchestral music live in concert halls and have recorded as much or more than I have heard live. When the double bass section is stage left (audience right), you hear those instruments on the right. I often used three mics across the front of the orchestra panned L/C/R, a technique C.R. Fine used for the Mercury Living Presence series of recordings. Later, Jack Renner used the same technique for Telarc. On CD recordings made from original master tapes, you clearly hear the double bass section on the right, not center or in the left channel. Other instruments with deep bass fundamentals are often not center stage (think large bass drum). On vinyl, you may hear bass more center, they had to sum bass to mono to avoid cutting the groove too wide on one side, it would cut into the adjacent groove and the playback stylus obviously couldn't track that.


http://www.preservationsound.com/?p=3939


Most pop/rock music has the kick drum and bass guitar panned center and there may not be a lot of deep bass on one side or the other, but some records have the whole drum kit panned to one side. Crazy stuff happened when things went from mono to stereo. Recording studios had three track tape recorders and L/C/R monitoring for a while. They had to mix to stereo, vinyl only had two channels.
Great. Tympani are never in the center from what I've listened to and watched live.
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post #15303 of 15876 Old 07-25-2019, 07:56 PM
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tympani have always been left or right...usually can hear individual left hand right hand beats.

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post #15304 of 15876 Old 07-25-2019, 08:04 PM
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I ordered f36 with c208. Is there any negatives with using the c208 with the f36? Should I have just got the c25? I will be using Denon 4500.
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post #15305 of 15876 Old 07-25-2019, 08:09 PM
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Im not a revel owner and doubt you will have negatives unless you go looking for em...all speakers have negatives.

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post #15306 of 15876 Old 07-25-2019, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonanv View Post
I ordered f36 with c208. Is there any negatives with using the c208 with the f36? Should I have just got the c25? I will be using Denon 4500.
No, you should have gotten F208’s ;-p

Actually, you probably did real well, especially if you’re mostly HT oriented.
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post #15307 of 15876 Old 07-25-2019, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I would run the subs in stereo since you have that option. Bass is omnidirectional in theory, but I have heard a lot of orchestral music live in concert halls and have recorded as much or more than I have heard live. When the double bass section is stage left (audience right), you hear those instruments on the right. I often used three mics across the front of the orchestra panned L/C/R, a technique C.R. Fine used for the Mercury Living Presence series of recordings.
FWIW, I own most of the Living Presence 3.0 SACDs, and the double basses clearly present correctly with mono bass management on those disks. The relevant cues are just much higher up in frequency.

IMO, there's no point to running subs in stereo. Better to use them to smooth out room modes and improve everything.

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post #15308 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
FWIW, I own most of the Living Presence 3.0 SACDs, and the double basses clearly present correctly with mono bass management on those disks. The relevant cues are just much higher up in frequency.

IMO, there's no point to running subs in stereo. Better to use them to smooth out room modes and improve everything.
+1

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post #15309 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
OT topic alert.

I have 2 Studios, just got an Anthem STR Pre-Amp.
Planning on getting 2 subs and positioning them near the rear wall.
Will re-position as needed but I'd prefer to have them flanking the MLP right\left.

The STR allows for 2 subs & has the option of running them stereo or mono.
Anyone have recommendation of which option?

I know that sound at 80Hz\below is non-directional.
I've never had that option previously.

System is 80% music but there is an OLED at play but I think I'm gonna go with a powered soundbar\sub for video content
If you plan to use room correction you already have the problem that the summed subwoofer is not measured with the L, R, C on at the same time to check for cancellation around the crossover. With the stereo sub, there are new sources of cancellation that will also not be checked for a final curve (unless you have REW or similar). Room correction software, even with multiple subouts and the ability to measure them separately for level and distance, typically measures them together as a summed channel (after correcting the level and distance).
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post #15310 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Simple question - Are they 228be worth the coin over the 208? I am doing away with the TV,speakers, subs etc in the living room and going to a 2 channel setup that has 100% WAF appeal. Two walnut speakers flanking the fireplace will be ticket. No subs, no room treatments, no big amps etc. I have a movie room upstairs, so the wife wants nothing AV in the living room except speakers to play background classical or easy listening music. The foot has been put down and to be honest, I need to reduce the Neflix viewing i.e. shows I watch that otherwise wouldn't just because they are there. Doing more socializing, reading, board games, etc is always a plus, so its a welcomed change. Sources will be predominately be hi-rez streaming service or disc. I know speaker improvements are difficult to put a dollar on, but are we talking - wow that's to die for get those 208s outta here or something much more subtle that you have to focus to the finer details before you notice. Is there anyone in the San Antonio/Austin area that has either that would be willing to provide an audition?
I havent heard the 228be, but I do have the 128be and im blown away by them still. had them about a week and they are above and beyond what I expected.
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post #15311 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Simple question - Are they 228be worth the coin over the 208? I am doing away with the TV,speakers, subs etc in the living room and going to a 2 channel setup that has 100% WAF appeal. Two walnut speakers flanking the fireplace will be ticket. No subs, no room treatments, no big amps etc. I have a movie room upstairs, so the wife wants nothing AV in the living room except speakers to play background classical or easy listening music. The foot has been put down and to be honest, I need to reduce the Neflix viewing i.e. shows I watch that otherwise wouldn't just because they are there. Doing more socializing, reading, board games, etc is always a plus, so its a welcomed change. Sources will be predominately be hi-rez streaming service or disc. I know speaker improvements are difficult to put a dollar on, but are we talking - wow that's to die for get those 208s outta here or something much more subtle that you have to focus to the finer details before you notice. Is there anyone in the San Antonio/Austin area that has either that would be willing to provide an audition?
Why can't you simply read the measurements for your answer. Of course you would still need to do a proper double blind test. That is the only way to get a scientific solution.
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post #15312 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Simple question - Are they 228be worth the coin over the 208? I am doing away with the TV, JBL black speakers, subs etc in the living room and going to a 2 channel setup that has 100% WAF appeal. Two walnut speakers flanking the fireplace will be ticket. No subs, no room treatments, no big amps etc. I have a movie room upstairs, so the wife wants nothing AV in the living room except speakers to play background classical or easy listening music. The foot has been put down and to be honest, I need to reduce the Neflix viewing i.e. shows I watch that otherwise wouldn't just because they are there. Doing more socializing, reading, board games, etc is always a plus, so its a welcomed change. Sources will be predominately be hi-rez streaming service or disc. I know speaker improvements are difficult to put a dollar on, but are we talking - wow that's to die for get those 208s outta here or something much more subtle that you have to focus to the finer details before you notice. Is there anyone in the San Antonio/Austin area that has either that would be willing to provide an audition?
I have the M126be's and the M106's. There is a very noticeable difference in the openness, air, imaging, and speed. So, I would assume that you will notice a similar difference with the F228be's.

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post #15313 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 08:31 AM
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What electronics are you going to use/have?
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post #15314 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Simple question - Are they 228be worth the coin over the 208? I am doing away with the TV, JBL black speakers, subs etc in the living room and going to a 2 channel setup that has 100% WAF appeal. Two walnut speakers flanking the fireplace will be ticket. No subs, no room treatments, no big amps etc. I have a movie room upstairs, so the wife wants nothing AV in the living room except speakers to play background classical or easy listening music. The foot has been put down and to be honest, I need to reduce the Neflix viewing i.e. shows I watch that otherwise wouldn't just because they are there. Doing more socializing, reading, board games, etc is always a plus, so its a welcomed change. Sources will be predominately be hi-rez streaming service or disc. I know speaker improvements are difficult to put a dollar on, but are we talking - wow that's to die for get those 208s outta here or something much more subtle that you have to focus to the finer details before you notice. Is there anyone in the San Antonio/Austin area that has either that would be willing to provide an audition?
I cannot comment upon 208 vs. 228 but pinging John or @Rex Anderson might be worthwhile.

Not knowing your area (room size) or finances, I will say I went with walnut F206's in the upstairs family/living room plus a Rythmik F12. They are for background music and the occasional movie (rare; my wife usually just watches old movies on the TV). They look gorgeous and are not nearly as imposing as the F208's I also considered. Cost was a consideration, but mainly WAF and how well they fit in the room next to the entertainment center (room is maybe 15' x 18' and open to the dining/kitchen area). If they are mainly background, unless the room is huge, maybe the smaller speakers would do as well and be more unobtrusive (or less obtrusive, visible, whatever)? And you can use the money to upgrade the media room, buy more music/movies/Scotch/whatever...

Do ensure they are far enough from the fireplace to prevent heat and smoke damage.

FWIWFM - Don
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post #15315 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 09:57 AM
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A largerly open ended request. I am in need of a pre-amp to go with new speakers and new power amp. What are you ideas to pair well with these?

Speakers: M126be
Amp: Bryston 4b-st

Pre-amp needs: XLR output(to amp), secondary RCA pre or dual subwoofer outputs(crossovers are nice, but not required), no need for phono or DAC onboard(it will probly have 1 or both anyways, but I dont need it), 12v trigger ouput(atleast one to control the amp), remote control, no tubes

Mostly I have been looking at the Emotiva XSP-1 and the Parasound P5

System: Emotiva XSP-1, Lexicon 225(Bryston 4B-ST with a new face), Revel M126be, SVS SB2000, Cambridge DACMAGIC 100, JVC XL-Z1050TN, Rega RP6, Vincent PHO-8. A bunch of monster power conditioning junk V: Samsung NU8000, Nvidia Shield TV
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post #15316 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Simple question - Are they 228be worth the coin over the 208? I am doing away with the TV, JBL black speakers, subs etc in the living room and going to a 2 channel setup that has 100% WAF appeal. Two walnut speakers flanking the fireplace will be ticket. No subs, no room treatments, no big amps etc. I have a movie room upstairs, so the wife wants nothing AV in the living room except speakers to play background classical or easy listening music. The foot has been put down and to be honest, I need to reduce the Neflix viewing i.e. shows I watch that otherwise wouldn't just because they are there. Doing more socializing, reading, board games, etc is always a plus, so its a welcomed change. Sources will be predominately be hi-rez streaming service or disc. I know speaker improvements are difficult to put a dollar on, but are we talking - wow that's to die for get those 208s outta here or something much more subtle that you have to focus to the finer details before you notice. Is there anyone in the San Antonio/Austin area that has either that would be willing to provide an audition?

I was recently at Harman and heard the F228Be and the F226Be. I own F208's. Because I was able to hear so many speakers in such a short amount of time at Harman, I can say each step up the ladder is an audible improvement. Whether or not the price difference is worth it or not is a decision only you can make. For the purpose you describe, I think F208's are darn good and a heck of a value. If you are not doing serious listening at higher volume levels, I doubt you would wish you had spent more for the F228Be's. How's that for an honest answer from a dealer?
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post #15317 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonanv View Post
I ordered f36 with c208. Is there any negatives with using the c208 with the f36? Should I have just got the c25? I will be using Denon 4500.

I just got a C208 to go with my F208's. You will not regret having it for the center channel.
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post #15318 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
FWIW, I own most of the Living Presence 3.0 SACDs, and the double basses clearly present correctly with mono bass management on those disks. The relevant cues are just much higher up in frequency. IMO, there's no point to running subs in stereo. Better to use them to smooth out room modes and improve everything.

Good point and info. It would take more time, but it might be worth it for the OP to try it both ways and see what actually works better for him in his room.

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post #15319 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Simple question - Are they 228be worth the coin over the 208?....

228Be is a marginally better speaker but F208 sounds great is the best value for money speakers I have heard in the Revel line up IMHO. For your secondary setup, I recommend 208 and use savings elsewhere.



Regards,
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post #15320 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 10:28 AM
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What electronics are you going to use/have?
Onkyo 1100 but I might pickup a NAD 758 for built in roon player for streaming and Dirac Live. For what I am doing, I really don't need any room correction though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Do ensure they are far enough from the fireplace to prevent heat and smoke damage.

FWIWFM - Don
I live in San Antonio, so I have no idea why they bother putting fireplaces in these homes. I have a very decorative 3 panel screen in front of the fireplace. Behind it inside the actual fireplace is a rack where the components are. Completely unseen and making good use of an otherwise worthless fireplace Thanks for the recommendation on the 206, they would fit the room a lot better. I would still run them without a sub but if I need to thump out, I can go upstairs to the game/movie room where the M2s are with all the subs.

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I was recently at Harman and heard the F228Be and the F226Be.
I didn't know there was a 226Be - do tell.
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post #15321 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I live in San Antonio, so I have no idea why they bother putting fireplaces in these homes. I have a very decorative 3 panel screen in front of the fireplace. Behind it inside the actual fireplace is a rack where the components are. Completely unseen and making good use of an otherwise worthless fireplace Thanks for the recommendation on the 206, they would fit the room a lot better. I would still run them without a sub but if I need to thump out, I can go upstairs to the game/movie room where the M2s are with all the subs.
Fireplace for chili pepper roasting? Place for Santa to come in?

I really wanted F208's, but they were just overkill for the room and usage. My wife is happy. I took the savings and put it toward upgrading the media room speakers.
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post #15322 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 10:58 AM
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The 228Be might be better and sound better but being about 2x the cost and the white transducers might be a turnoff. *(They are to me in a dark cabinet)

Seems like I remember the room but don’t remember a fireplace?
Might want to stick with the 208’s with no sub?

Chris
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post #15323 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 11:17 AM
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the white transducers might be a turnoff. *(They are to me in a dark cabinet)

Chris
Loving the white transducers personally
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post #15324 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 11:37 AM
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Loving the white transducers personally
Yes! Looks great in that situation.

I do like “uniqueness” so I might have misspoke for some situations.

WAF can be an odd thing though.
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post #15325 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 11:44 AM
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WAF can be an odd thing though.
I dont have one of those... so no worries here HAHA!

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post #15326 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I didn't know there was a 226Be - do tell.
Whew, I thought I might have screwed up and let the cat out of the bag, so I reconfirmed that it's OK to talk about the F226Be, it has been announced.

Basically the same deal as the F228Be vs F208. F226Be is the same configuration as the F206 but new drivers, crossover, 5th gen waveguide.

For your application, I think you might want the extended bass of the the F228Be or F208. Also depends on what size you prefer, the F226 Be and F206 are smaller.

At low volume for background music you might want to have some bass EQ boost with any speaker you choose. I have been using the EQ in my Lexicon MC-10 for that purpose.
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Last edited by Rex Anderson; 07-26-2019 at 12:39 PM.
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post #15327 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Locoliberty View Post
I dont have one of those... so no worries here HAHA!
Count yourself lucky! Haha
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post #15328 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 03:27 PM
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With grills on, you do not see the drivers.
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post #15329 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 03:54 PM
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Center channels

Hello,

I have narrowed my search down to a Revel speaker system. I haven't decided on whether I will go with the F36's or the F206's.
I am leaning toward the F206's. I have fairly large room at 4000 cubic feet.

Can anyone give me some suggestions on which Center Channel goes with each of these choices?

Thanks,

Paul

LG-OLED 65C8PUA
Marantz-SR5012
Sony-UBP X-800, Roku Ultra 4K
Front L&R-Monitor Audio Silver 300's, Center C350, Silver FX Surrounds
Subwoofer = HSU ULS-15 MK2
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post #15330 of 15876 Old 07-26-2019, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Whew, I thought I might have screwed up and let the cat out of the bag, so I reconfirmed that it's OK to talk about the F226Be, it has been announced.
I am relieved that I no longer have to hold that one to myself. Actually, it does seem to be a logical eventuality.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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