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post #16201 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Would the Parasound A23 be a decent match to the Revel 228be?
they told me that parasound hint (which is somewhere in between A21 and A23) would be fine with 208 and given that 228be is more efficient than 208 one probably can hope so



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post #16202 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
I talked with my wife and she said the walnut finish would help the speaker look thinner. That's above my pay grade but her eye is better than mine. So I suspect the speaker of choice will be the 228Be in walnut. I wish I would of asked her before I brought in the wrong color. PITA to re-box etc.
She has great wisdom and ocular capabilities!
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post #16203 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by vavan View Post
they told me that parasound hint (which is somewhere in between A21 and A23) would be fine with 208 and given that 228be is more efficient than 208 one probably can hope so
I think the A23+ is 160w. At 90db sensitive, I would think it would drive the 228be fine to "spirited" levels cleanly. Can someone PM me who the Parasound AVS go to dealers are?
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post #16204 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musty Hustla View Post
Greetings Revelers, I’m interested in the Revel W990s as LCR but I wonder if the W990 as a center can compete with the clarity the Klipsch RP450 center provides in my family room. Any thoughts? [ For many reasons stand alone speakers aren’t an option. ]
The Revel W990 has been described as an in wall F208. Using a W990 as a center channel will match the L/R W990's better than using the Klipsch RP450. Are you using them behind a screen? If not, how would you mount the W990 center channel? That would be the issue. The Klipsch RP450 is not an in-wall speaker. If you can use that, you could get a Revel C208 that would be a better match for the W990s.

I have a C208, clarity is excellent. The Revel in-wall speakers are some of the best sounding in-walls available and the W990 is the top of the line.
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post #16205 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musty Hustla View Post
Greetings Revelers, I’️m interested in the Revel W990s as LCR but I wonder if the W990 as a center can compete with the clarity the Klipsch RP450 center provides in my family room. Any thoughts? [ For many reasons stand alone speakers aren’️t an option. ]
The Revel W990 has been described as an in wall F208. Using a W990 as a center channel will match the L/R W990's better than using the Klipsch RP450. Are you using them behind a screen? If not, how would you mount the W990 center channel? That would be the issue. The Klipsch RP450 is not an in-wall speaker. If you can use that, you could get a Revel C208 that would be a better match for the W990s.

I have a C208, clarity is excellent. The Revel in-wall speakers are some of the best sounding in-walls available and the W990 is the top of the line.
Thanks Rex. Yes the W990 would be behind a transparent screen.

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post #16206 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Musty Hustla View Post
Thanks Rex. Yes the W990 would be behind a transparent screen.
That makes using three W990's an easy decision IMO.
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post #16207 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musty Hustla View Post
Thanks Rex. Yes the W990 would be behind a transparent screen.
If it's behind a screen, why not just use 3 towers or bookshelf speakers on stands? I got some nice Revel in walls (w783), but limitations of wall acoustics are limiting sound quality for me a lot. Luckily they're only rear surrounds and don't matter too much. I think the sound from cabinet speakers will be much more reliable. At least count on some type of acoustic work in the walls to ensure good sound. I didn't and my in walls don't sound great.
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post #16208 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musty Hustla View Post
Thanks Rex. Yes the W990 would be behind a transparent screen.
If it's behind a screen, why not just use 3 towers or bookshelf speakers on stands? I got some nice Revel in walls (w783), but limitations of wall acoustics are limiting sound quality for me a lot. Luckily they're only rear surrounds and don't matter too much. I think the sound from cabinet speakers will be much more reliable. At least count on some type of acoustic work in the walls to ensure good sound. I didn't and my in walls don't sound great.
I don’t have the space for astand alone speakers behind a screen and do all of the other things I want to do in my relatively small room. 15x19

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post #16209 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Musty Hustla View Post
I don’t have the space for astand alone speakers behind a screen and do all of the other things I want to do in my relatively small room. 15x19
Ok, then based on my limited experience with in-walls I would be ready to build boxes in the wall or add additional bracing to help with sound. My speakers are in standard 16" stud bays filled with insulation (it's an exterior wall with the outside of the wall being stucco) and the bass/low mids is terrible. I can feel the drywall (5/8") resonating significantly up and down the wall. Just a word of caution. I didn't expect the issue I have based on my forum reading; I don't see much about this in threads about in walls. Maybe my construction just sucks.
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post #16210 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post
Ok, then based on my limited experience with in-walls I would be ready to build boxes in the wall or add additional bracing to help with sound. My speakers are in standard 16" stud bays filled with insulation (it's an exterior wall with the outside of the wall being stucco) and the bass/low mids is terrible. I can feel the drywall (5/8") resonating significantly up and down the wall. Just a word of caution. I didn't expect the issue I have based on my forum reading; I don't see much about this in threads about in walls. Maybe my construction just sucks.

Do you use bass management? Do you have subs and cross the mains over at 80 Hz? Have you done room correction EQ? Getting some LF out of the main speakers may help a lot.
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post #16211 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Do you use bass management? Do you have subs and cross the mains over at 80 Hz? Have you done room correction EQ? Getting some LF out of the main speakers may help a lot.
Yes everything is crossed at 80. When I first set up the in walls I tested them full range with music just to see what they sounded like and was extremely disappointed. Now they are rears in a 7.2 system, crossed at 80 and they don't actually bother me at all. They integrate fine in a HT setting. I just realize that I overpaid for them in their current role; I probably would have been happy with some of Revel's lower line speakers as I'm not getting the full potential of these. However, these can handle more SPL presumably so are more robust for those time I really crank things.
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post #16212 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
The Revel W990 has been described as an in wall F208. Using a W990 as a center channel will match the L/R W990's better than using the Klipsch RP450. Are you using them behind a screen? If not, how would you mount the W990 center channel? That would be the issue. The Klipsch RP450 is not an in-wall speaker. If you can use that, you could get a Revel C208 that would be a better match for the W990s.

I have a C208, clarity is excellent. The Revel in-wall speakers are some of the best sounding in-walls available and the W990 is the top of the line.
Agreed for the exception of the first sentence perhaps.

The mid and bass driver on the F208 are different for sure.

IIRC the F208 came out in 2013-4. Again, IIRC, the W990 has been in the line longer.

So maybe the F208 is a modified W990 in a cabinet kinda sorta. Doubt it since the cost difference is $1750 - $2500 each. The box is 50-60%+ of the bill of material on a typical speaker build.

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post #16213 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musty Hustla View Post
Greetings Revelers, I’m interested in the Revel W990s as LCR but I wonder if the W990 as a center can compete with the clarity the Klipsch RP450 center provides in my family room. Any thoughts?

[ For many reasons stand alone speakers aren’t an option. ]
In terms of sound quality, my bet is that the Klipsch is like bringing a knife to a gunfight compared to Revel's top of the line 3 way with a 9" woofer for a vertical center, vs a compromised design using small woofers arranged horizontally.
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post #16214 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Would the Parasound A23 be a decent match to the Revel 228be?

I think it would be a terrible match. I wouldn't put a dedicated, stand alone amp with sub-par power rating(125w) on a top of the line speaker that is rated for up to 350 watts. I like to know that I can listen at any volume without any risk of distortion, compression, or clipping, ever.

I'd look at one of these:

https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/prod...-one-nc500dmst

They will provide all the power you could *ever* ask for with incredibly low distortion. The Hypex module used in this amp will outperform most *audiophile* amps available at any price, while providing drastically higher power.

Google "Hypex NC500 specs" for a detailed PDF if you want to make a well informed, objective decision.
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post #16215 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
In terms of sound quality, my bet is that the Klipsch is like bringing a knife to a gunfight compared to Revel's top of the line 3 way with a 9" woofer for a vertical center, vs a compromised design using small woofers arranged horizontally.
More like a $500 knife against an $1800 gun.

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post #16216 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I think it would be a terrible match. I wouldn't put a dedicated, stand alone amp with sub-par power rating(125w) on a top of the line speaker that is rated for up to 350 watts. I like to know that I can listen at any volume without any risk of distortion, compression, or clipping, ever.

I'd look at one of these:

https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/prod...-one-nc500dmst

They will provide all the power you could *ever* ask for with incredibly low distortion. The Hypex module used in this amp will outperform most *audiophile* amps available at any price, while providing drastically higher power.

Google "Hypex NC500 specs" for a detailed PDF if you want to make a well informed, objective decision.
Thanks for the link Bear. The 228's are currently hooked up to an Onkyo rz1100 and it will drive them as loud as I need. I never listen very loud on this system.. I have blown tweeters before but have never blown a compression driver. With that said, the spirited levels are reserved for the M2s upstairs. Once bitten, twice shy - I will forever be gun shy with tweeters. For now, I am going to try bi-amping the 228's with a 7125 Outlaw I have laying around. Not ideal, but I will get 2 x 125w per speaker, with zero cost outlay. If it doesn't work out, I will re-vist an amp purchase.


On that topic, has anyone bi-amped their Revels?
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post #16217 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 08:54 PM
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ATI is coming out with the AT1602 very soon. Class AB, AT1602 - 160 watt x 2 channels. List price is $1,495.00

They also make great Class D NCore Hypex amps. AT522NC - 200 watt x 2 channels. List price is $2,195.00
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post #16218 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 08:56 PM
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^^ ^

+ new 3000 series.

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post #16219 of 16449 Old 10-22-2019, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Thanks for the link Bear. The 228's are currently hooked up to an Onkyo rz1100 and it will drive them as loud as I need. I never listen very loud on this system.. I have blown tweeters before but have never blown a compression driver. With that said, the spirited levels are reserved for the M2s upstairs. Once bitten, twice shy - I will forever be gun shy with tweeters. For now, I am going to try bi-amping the 228's with a 7125 Outlaw I have laying around. Not ideal, but I will get 2 x 125w per speaker, with zero cost outlay. If it doesn't work out, I will re-vist an amp purchase.


On that topic, has anyone bi-amped their Revels?


There are a couple of folks on this thread that do/have passively bi-amped their Ultima 2s (Salon, Studio and/or Voice) quite favorably. But that has been with Parasound Halo, ATI 6000 signature series and now Benchmark. Perhaps one of them will respond.


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post #16220 of 16449 Old 10-23-2019, 01:09 AM
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just encountered recent post on audiogon:

Quote:
I upgraded my F208 to Salon 2s after about a year of ownership. I have good (but not hugely expensive) electronics driving each set of speakers. For instance, Parasound A21 power amp (bi-wired with 12 guage) and Emotiva DC-1 DAC. The Revel speakers in general have no "WOW' factor at all. They suffer (slightly) in imaging compared to my old Magnepans. The F208s do not have the very deep bass of the Salons but don't pretend to (that is, they don't overhype the 35 Hz range to sound full).

The reason I even comment on this thread is that I feel the Revels have to be played at a realistic volume to be appreciated. Some guest listeners have commented that they didn't think the music was loud until they tried to speak.

A grand piano in my listening room would actually be pretty loud. My system has to replicate that volume to be realistic.

Mostly I listen at background music levels and these speakers sound fine. But turn it up a bit and be prepared to love it
so F208s sound better when playing loud and not so impressive on low to moderate levels?



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post #16221 of 16449 Old 10-23-2019, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
On that topic, has anyone bi-amped their Revels?
I'm one of the ones who has been biamping my Salon 2's and Voice 2. Previously with a pair of ATI AT6007's, which allowed me to biamp all 6 Salon 2's and the Voice 2. Now with 5 Benchmark AHB2's, which allows me to biamp the front 3 speakers and use a single channel for the other 4 speakers (for a total of 10 channels of amplification). I haven't really experimented much with using just 1 amp channel versus the passive biamping, but despite that am quite pleased with the results.


I switched to the Benchmark amps because I had a never ending saga of issues with the ATI amps (bad amp modules, a blown trigger board, etc.) and the ATI amps are a PITA to deal with when there are problems because they're really heavy. ATI was good about sending me replacement parts so the amps didn't have to have a coast to coast round trip each time, but was extremely slow doing so (typically more than a month before replacement parts were shipped). Swapping out amp modules isn't a fun thing to do as it's really tight getting access to some of the connections that have to be made (there are 4 connections per module) and the modules bolt to the bottom of the amp chassis, which means you need to prop the amp up to get access to the bottom while still having access to the top to pull the module out once the screws are out. If the module that needs to be swapped isn't the one on the far right (looking from the front), you have to remove each module starting at the right until you get to the one that actually needs to be swapped. It's not hard to do, just tedious, time consuming, and a bit frustrating. When finished, you need to move the 150lb amp back into the rack and hope you didn't miss any connectors when putting things back together... When they were working, the ATI amps sounded great.


The Benchmark amps have been flawless so far and to my ear sound just as good as the ATI's. If the Benchmark amps ever have any issues, they each weigh about 15lbs (shipping weight in the original box is around 20lbs) and only have to ship to New York instead of to the other side of the country. I also only lose 2 channels of amplification instead of 7 if an individual amp has a problem.
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post #16222 of 16449 Old 10-23-2019, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
I'm one of the ones who has been biamping my Salon 2's and Voice 2. Previously with a pair of ATI AT6007's, which allowed me to biamp all 6 Salon 2's and the Voice 2. Now with 5 Benchmark AHB2's, which allows me to biamp the front 3 speakers and use a single channel for the other 4 speakers (for a total of 10 channels of amplification). I haven't really experimented much with using just 1 amp channel versus the passive biamping, but despite that am quite pleased with the results.


I switched to the Benchmark amps because I had a never ending saga of issues with the ATI amps (bad amp modules, a blown trigger board, etc.) and the ATI amps are a PITA to deal with when there are problems because they're really heavy. ATI was good about sending me replacement parts so the amps didn't have to have a coast to coast round trip each time, but was extremely slow doing so (typically more than a month before replacement parts were shipped). Swapping out amp modules isn't a fun thing to do as it's really tight getting access to some of the connections that have to be made (there are 4 connections per module) and the modules bolt to the bottom of the amp chassis, which means you need to prop the amp up to get access to the bottom while still having access to the top to pull the module out once the screws are out. If the module that needs to be swapped isn't the one on the far right (looking from the front), you have to remove each module starting at the right until you get to the one that actually needs to be swapped. It's not hard to do, just tedious, time consuming, and a bit frustrating. When finished, you need to move the 150lb amp back into the rack and hope you didn't miss any connectors when putting things back together... When they were working, the ATI amps sounded great.


The Benchmark amps have been flawless so far and to my ear sound just as good as the ATI's. If the Benchmark amps ever have any issues, they each weigh about 15lbs (shipping weight in the original box is around 20lbs) and only have to ship to New York instead of to the other side of the country. I also only lose 2 channels of amplification instead of 7 if an individual amp has a problem.
As you've explained before, your experience with ATI 6007 was very frustrating. I bought my ATI 6007 in October of 2014 and have used it on 7 x B&W's, and 7 x Revel Ultima2's since 2016. I have 5 years of absolutely delightful, trouble free operation with my ATI 6007. It drives all 7 Revel channels to reference levels without sweating. Though like you, I cringe anytime I have to physically move it.
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post #16223 of 16449 Old 10-23-2019, 09:55 AM
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just encountered recent post on audiogon:



so F208s sound better when playing loud and not so impressive on low to moderate levels?
IMO it depends on what anyone means by "impressive". Sure, LOUD grabs attention but listening at that level for long risks hearing damage. My F208s sound good at pretty much any volume level but are typically used in the 70-75 dB range. YMMV.
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post #16224 of 16449 Old 10-23-2019, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vavan View Post
just encountered recent post on audiogon:
Quote: The reason I even comment on this thread is that I feel the Revels have to be played at a realistic volume to be appreciated. Some guest listeners have commented that they didn't think the music was loud until they tried to speak.

so F208s sound better when playing loud and not so impressive on low to moderate levels?
Nope. What they do not have is a tipped up treble and over-warmed bass that decorates the sound of some speakers when playing music at lower than proper levels. The human ear is progressively less sensitive to the extremes of the frequency range as levels are reduced (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness). The built-in compensation of such speakers for low levels is concomitant with emphasized highs and lows at normal levels. IMHO, a bad trade-off.

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post #16225 of 16449 Old 10-23-2019, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by vavan View Post
just encountered recent post on audiogon:

so F208s sound better when playing loud and not so impressive on low to moderate levels?
No, they sound great at all levels, but especially great played loudly where other speakers fall apart (sound bad for the reasons Kal mentioned). The comment was not that they do not sound great played softer, but that turning them up really shows how they shine in comparison to the competition.

IMO - Don
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post #16226 of 16449 Old 10-23-2019, 12:43 PM
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Bill, Kal and Don, thanks for your comments, appreciated!
What about that aforementioned "imaging" stuff? It's not the first time I read that f208s are not that good in this aspect. What do you think?
It's not that I'm trying to diminish their capabilities, in fact I've already ordered and been waiting for these to arrive, just wanted to know better what to expect

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post #16227 of 16449 Old 10-23-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Nope. What they do not have is a tipped up treble and over-warmed bass that decorates the sound of some speakers when playing music at lower than proper levels. The human ear is progressively less sensitive to the extremes of the frequency range as levels are reduced (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness). The built-in compensation of such speakers for low levels is concomitant with emphasized highs and lows at normal levels. IMHO, a bad trade-off.
I've been wondering about this for a while. What would be a "proper" or "normal" listening level? The lower the volume, the quieter the extremes are. I believe the opposite is true, where above a certain level the extremes seem louder (please correct me if I am wrong). I haven't found where that switches tho. If so, are flat response speakers like the Revels intended to be played at certain levels to sound flat to the typical ear?

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post #16228 of 16449 Old 10-23-2019, 02:07 PM
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There are a couple of folks on this thread that do/have passively bi-amped their Ultima 2s (Salon, Studio and/or Voice) quite favorably. But that has been with Parasound Halo, ATI 6000 signature series and now Benchmark. Perhaps one of them will respond.


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I bi-amp the Salon2's using the Benchmark AHB2's which I feel provides a bit of clarity even at low levels.
I can bridge the AHB2's but have monitored the clip indicators (per channel) and I have to push the limits (driven by the Benchmark LA4) to get them to clip.
For movies, I have pushed and pushed and they are not clipping even when I am very uncomfortable.

If Molon is blowing tweeter, then he may be clipping his amps. My brother-in-law drives his F208's hard with a Parasound A21 and gets it hot. Revel speakers shine will good CLEAN power.

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post #16229 of 16449 Old 10-23-2019, 02:18 PM
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As a recording engineer, I was always told to mix at 83-85 dB SPL because that's the general SPL where the ear has the flattest response. Dr. Toole says that is somewhat of a myth. Who knows what level the mix or mastering engineers worked at when they made overall spectral balance decisions? Or what monitors they worked on...

When I listen to background music at lower SPLs, I use basic EQ in my Lexicon MC-10 to boost bass +3 dB. When I do serious listening, I adjust volume to what sounds best to me and generally don't use EQ. Depending on the style of music that varies. I have found in my work as a recording and live sound mixer, I seem to settle on around 96 dB SPL A weighting at the loudest peak passages. I don't like to listen at that level for long periods of time. If I'm mixing a live concert, I use custom fit hearing protection with Etymotic Research ER9 or ER15 attenuators after I get the mix well established.

When I did mastering work in a DAW, (Digital Audio Workstation), I would jump from song to song, find the peak level passages and adjust the level of each song so it was appropriate relative to the overall peak passage on the entire CD. That's macrodynamics. I would also ride gain throughout the song to adjust microdynamics. Of course there are a lot of dynamic moves made during a mix too, gain riding on individual channels and the master fader. And, compressors and limiters are used to control dynamics of individual instruments and the overall mix. I started recording/mixing/mastering in 1976, long before console automation. I did mixes that required several assistant engineers at the console to ride gain on multiple faders through the mix in real time. If someone blew their moves, we had to start over again. Fader automation was a game changer.

Bottom line is, there is no set level to listen. Turn it up to the level that sounds best to you on your system in your room. Use EQ if necessary. Rinse and repeat for each song, lol. Enjoy!

Edit: had more time to complete my thoughts. Point of this talk about level and dynamic range is, you should be able to put on a CD and listen through it from beginning to end without adjusting level once you set the it based on how loud you want to hear the loudest passage of the entire CD. Of course if you are streaming and going from one artist to another, all bets are off. Levels and spectral balance will be different, sometimes radically so thanks to the Circle of Confusion. Older material that was mastered pre-loudness wars will not be as "loud".
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Last edited by Rex Anderson; 10-24-2019 at 10:43 AM.
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post #16230 of 16449 Old 10-23-2019, 02:34 PM
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I've been wondering about this for a while. What would be a "proper" or "normal" listening level?
It really depends on the source and that's why Toole's Circle of Confusion is relevant. I try to listen at a level that "sounds" realistic even though I know from reflection and measurement that they are much lower.
Quote:
The lower the volume, the quieter the extremes are.
...the quieter they are heard.
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I believe the opposite is true, where above a certain level the extremes seem louder (please correct me if I am wrong). I haven't found where that switches tho.
I cannot understand those statements.
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If so, are flat response speakers like the Revels intended to be played at certain levels to sound flat to the typical ear?
No. It is purely a physiological issue. All speakers are affected by the level/sensitivity issue. Flat speakers are flat speakers and, without compensation, may seem shallow at low levels. OTOH, speakers with accentuated highs/lows will not be right at any level although they may seem more pleasant than flat ones at low levels. Think of them has having a "loudness switch" that you cannot turn off.

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Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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