Revel Owners Thread - Page 550 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #16471 of 17214 Old 11-25-2019, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
I've had a fair number of Revels shipped to me in the past year and I have had this issue with a few. For those, I purchased an appropriate thread flat-bottom tap to clean out the threads in the speaker.
While it sounds like that would work well, I admit this is a sore spot.

Why should any Revel speaker buyer have to deal with this nonsense? This is a quality issue that should be addressed in manufacturing, not after the sale by mucking around with an allen wrench or a flat bottom tap. My M106 now has a little chip on the bottom from cleaning out debris that shouldn't have been there so that I could mount the speaker on a Revel M stand. No, it doesn't affect the sound quality and it's completely hidden by the stand but it sure as heck took the bloom off the rose that day.

These are Harman Luxury Audio products. This doesn't feel like luxury to me. Revel, do better.
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post #16472 of 17214 Old 11-25-2019, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I have used the spikes in the past but am not using them now. Not sure why you would be having a problem screwing them in. I didn't have any problems when I used them in a previous house.
May I ask you why did you stop using the spikes? Iirc on audioafficionados I've read that you liked the sound with the spikes better. My f208s standing on laminate floor look and feel quite stable so I wonder whether I should be bothering with expensive outriggers and spikes

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post #16473 of 17214 Old 11-26-2019, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I have used the spikes in the past but am not using them now. Not sure why you would be having a problem screwing them in. I didn't have any problems when I used them in a previous house.
I had problems with the spikes on my F208's and needed new spikes sent out because the threads were not good on them. Easiest solution is to have Revel send some replacements. Others have had this problem as well in the past.
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post #16474 of 17214 Old 11-26-2019, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Misencik View Post
I had problems with the spikes on my F208's and needed new spikes sent out because the threads were not good on them. Easiest solution is to have Revel send some replacements. Others have had this problem as well in the past.
may I ask you when your f208s were manufactured? according to harman support mine were in 2016 and may be they had some batch with "bad" spikes? hope spikes were the only serious problem in production with those expensive speakers



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post #16475 of 17214 Old 11-26-2019, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by vavan View Post
may I ask you when your f208s were manufactured? according to harman support mine were in 2016 and may be they had some batch with "bad" spikes? hope spikes were the only serious problem in production with those expensive speakers
Mine were delivered mid-July 2016, so they well could have come from the same batch. My dealer ordered new ones and tried them out on his before he shipped them to me. The new spikes went in without incident.
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post #16476 of 17214 Old 11-26-2019, 07:58 AM
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FWIW, I've had an issue with spikes packaged with a set of speakers I bought in the 1990s - the point hadn't been "sharpened" - it was just a cylinder, and looked like a completely unsharpened pencil. New spikes were sent post-haste.

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post #16477 of 17214 Old 11-26-2019, 08:10 AM
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@LPMM

“They have one big sale a year and this year has me tempted to pick up a pair of speakers. I am perfectly happy with my B&W 805S for music listening but now that I have just turned a room into a more HT based room, I feel that “better” speakers for movie viewing may be in order. So far, the announced deal is for the F12, F35, F36, F206, or Studio2.”

I could not find that deal - are you able to share a link / dealer info.
Thanks

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post #16478 of 17214 Old 11-26-2019, 03:47 PM
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@LPMM
I could not find that deal - are you able to share a link / dealer info.
Thanks
The sale is over now, it was this past Friday through Sunday.
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post #16479 of 17214 Old 11-27-2019, 06:56 AM
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Since I didn't have time to re-package up the F228's, I might as well give them another A-B-C comparison. The Salon2's that were pictured earlier are now at their new home. I should mention that my customer is liking his new Salon2's even more than his Magico A3's ($12,300).
I'm that customer :-)

I thought the Magico was an amazing speaker, especially given its price point. Honestly I didn't like the F208 or Be228 when I heard them. Something just too in your face sounding for me. However....the Salon2 are nothing like that. Well.....maybe a little bit ;-)

The Salon2 has the clarity and speed you'd expect but doesn't seem as forward as the other, newer Revel models. This is the sound I prefer. If it were between Be228 and the A3...no contest. The Magico wins. But the A3 really can't match what a Salon2 can do. I'd say its like going from a B+ to an A- or maybe an A. But it better be at least that given the cost difference! I bet a A3-Studio2 matchup would be closer.

Next stop for me is bi-amping and bi-wiring the Salons! :-)

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post #16480 of 17214 Old 11-27-2019, 10:39 AM
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The sale is over now, it was this past Friday through Sunday.
Well that sucks. I was at a dealer this past Saturday and listed to the F206 and F36 and like both. I asked if they could give me any deal on them and I was not offered the BYGO. If he would have offered me that deal he would have had a sell but I ended up walking out with nothing instead.
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post #16481 of 17214 Old 11-29-2019, 05:06 AM
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I'm that customer :-)

I thought the Magico was an amazing speaker, especially given its price point. Honestly I didn't like the F208 or Be228 when I heard them. Something just too in your face sounding for me. However....the Salon2 are nothing like that. Well.....maybe a little bit ;-)

The Salon2 has the clarity and speed you'd expect but doesn't seem as forward as the other, newer Revel models. This is the sound I prefer. If it were between Be228 and the A3...no contest. The Magico wins. But the A3 really can't match what a Salon2 can do. I'd say its like going from a B+ to an A- or maybe an A. But it better be at least that given the cost difference! I bet a A3-Studio2 matchup would be closer.

Next stop for me is bi-amping and bi-wiring the Salons! :-)
In fairness, trying to figure out which speaker is subjectively better has to be done in the same room, on the same day, with the same equipment using the same music. And even then, it's way to easy to get it wrong (placement, audio memory, and the prebias).

In my recent experiments, (same everything) I've learned of a variable that entered into the formula that partially caused my initial F206 conclusion to be flawed. It was the same reason why I probably concluded the Studio2's (a couple years back) didn't have enough bottom end. And that was a big arse thick/wide chair that was in the room; it seems it acted like a single frequency bass trap. Early this month, I removed chair in all of the past experiments. Additionally, I pulled out a wide glass coffee table 2 feet in front of the couch which certainly didn't help the room acoustics. This time, I left them in (using the same Dirac room EQ curves when they were out). I got top end reflections as well as a 40 Hz adsorptions that I didn't prefer. So my mind drifted as to why I didn't think the Studio2's (and earlier the F206's) didn't have enough lower end "oomph".

I do have a "fix". The corner sub is adding nearly zero value because of a large suckout below 30 Hz. I suspect the solution will be to put a sub right behind the couch and re-run Dirac. I won't know because my wife just pulled out the Christmas tree and it destroyed my ideal speaker placement. But my broader point is that it's so easy to conclude the wrong pecking order of speakers. For another interesting factoid, without putting in the Harman curves back into the Arcam Dirac, the top end of the F226's (on some songs) wasn't as warm as I prefer. But when I loaded in the Harman curves back in the Arcam, it sweetened the top end ever-so-slightly with pleasing results.

So as you see, it's really easy to screw up because most experiments you conduct or read about are heavily flawed. I like to tell it like it is so I posted accordingly. To err is human. Saying that, the A3 has a softer top end and it is contained in the FR measurements. Your ear seems to like the flatter response of the Salon2's. I'm glad that was the case because I didn't want to take them back. lol

By the way, I love the picture you took of the Salon2's in your room (the backdrop of the brick and lights). Do share.
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post #16482 of 17214 Old 11-29-2019, 05:30 AM
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As a side note, I showed the walnut F206's to my son and daughter who flew in for Thanksgiving. I played them some music and they were blown away. My son was in the adjacent room (literally in the side of the right speaker by 10 feet). He could accurately pick when the Arcam Dirac room correction was engaged (5 times in the blind). My daughter was off in a massage chair. She too could pick out when Dirac was engaged. Try picking out the differences with similar frequency response quality speakers. While I'm sure some people think it would be easy, I know the answer.

When I had them both sit down in the sweet spot, they were obviously impressed. They each wanted a pair.
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post #16483 of 17214 Old 11-29-2019, 05:57 AM
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In fairness, trying to figure out which speaker is subjectively better has to be done in the same room, on the same day, with the same equipment using the same music. And even then, it's way to easy to get it wrong (placement, audio memory, and the prebias).
So my auditory memory of the 208 and 228 might be flawed, but I certainly do recall liking other things better when I last heard them. I preferred the 208 over the 228. Don't get me wrong.....they are great sounding speakers, but just not the choice I would make with my $.

However, the Salon2-A3 comparison was about as fair and accurate as you could be without having a double-blind setup in place. The comparison was done in the same room, with the same gear, at the same time. I literally had the two pairs side-by-side and simply moved the speaker cables back-and-forth between the two. You could argue that even that wasn't truly 100% correct because neither speaker pair stood alone in the correct position location while doing the evaluation. Sure. BUT......if any speaker needs to be in that situation to get the best out of it, I'd argue that it is TOO dependent in placement on getting it's best. I don't want something that would be THAT finicky.

Whether its the 'flatness' in the graphs/spec of the Salon or something else....I don't know. All I do know is they just did almost everything just a bit better than the Magico. I will also say you get what you put in them no matter what. They are UNFORGIVING of bad recordings or mixes. I think the Magicos had a tiny bit more forgiveness there.

If I had more $ and room, I'd be keeping both. :-)

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post #16484 of 17214 Old 11-29-2019, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jkscherk View Post
So my auditory memory of the 208 and 228 might be flawed, but I certainly do recall liking other things better when I last heard them. I preferred the 208 over the 228. Don't get me wrong.....they are great sounding speakers, but just not the choice I would make with my $.

However, the Salon2-A3 comparison was about as fair and accurate as you could be without having a double-blind setup in place. The comparison was done in the same room, with the same gear, at the same time. I literally had the two pairs side-by-side and simply moved the speaker cables back-and-forth between the two. You could argue that even that wasn't truly 100% correct because neither speaker pair stood alone in the correct position location while doing the evaluation. Sure. BUT......if any speaker needs to be in that situation to get the best out of it, I'd argue that it is TOO dependent in placement on getting it's best. I don't want something that would be THAT finicky.

Whether its the 'flatness' in the graphs/spec of the Salon or something else....I don't know. All I do know is they just did almost everything just a bit better than the Magico. I will also say you get what you put in them no matter what. They are UNFORGIVING of bad recordings or mixes. I think the Magicos had a tiny bit more forgiveness there.

If I had more $ and room, I'd be keeping both. :-)
Agreed with the bold statement above. You had them in the same room, same music, same gear, etc. You subjectively liked the Salon2's. I didn't question that portion of your post. On the other hand, when you heard the the F208 and the F228Be's, they too needed to be in the same room on the same day etc etc. Putting it another way, in the blind and you preferred the the 208's, you would be the severe minority. Unless of course the engineers and research at Revel got it all wrong. That's not the case.

I too have heard the F228Be's sound less than ideal (per the video I posted at the 2018 Munich HiFi show). I've also heard the F208's sound not so good. I've concluded the biggest reason for me not liking a competently designed loudspeaker are three fold: 1. the room. 2. the room. And 3. the room. You get my point. As I pointed out earlier, it's easy to make blunder. Even when I stripped away the Harman curve (subjective applied frequency voicing) by running Dirac. As I said when I later added it in, that and that alone could easily make people rotate a speaker selection. Because at the end of the day, we are taking about small nuances whereby passionate people are caring a lot about a detail or three.

It really would be fun to do a planned "field trip" out to Harman with a group of customers/passionate enthusiasts. I bet I could get it organized. I promise you it's eye opening. I've visited a few times now and it's always worth the time. I've also performed multiple amp, preamp ABX tests in the blind. Again, it's eye opening to see what is real and imaginary.

I'm not tossing stones. I've heard massive improvements that were all in my head. Like the time I swapped out an old POS Vandersteen super small center channel with a C208. My customer and I heard a MASSIVE difference; the C208 was soooooooo much better. It wasn't close! Oh... He forgot to turn on the center channel amplifier switch with the C208. Same room, same music, everything so I thought I did everything right. It happens to all of us even when we are convinced we did our due diligence.
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post #16485 of 17214 Old 11-29-2019, 09:53 AM
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Whether its the 'flatness' in the graphs/spec of the Salon or something else....I don't know. All I do know is they just did almost everything just a bit better than the Magico. I will also say you get what you put in them no matter what. They are UNFORGIVING of bad recordings or mixes. I think the Magicos had a tiny bit more forgiveness there.
I noticed in your signature you have a Denon 3600H and an Emotiva BasX A-300. I assume you are using these on your Salon2s. Did you find an improvement with the A-300 over the Denon? I've got a 3300X and was looking at the A-300 for my F35's, so am curious a out your experience.

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post #16486 of 17214 Old 11-29-2019, 11:10 AM
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I noticed in your signature you have a Deon 3600H and an Emotiva BasX A-300. I assume you are using these on your Salon2s. Did you find an improvement with the A-300 over the Denon? I've got a 3300X and was looking at the A-300 for my F35's, so am curious a out your experience.
If if memory servers me correctly, he is using a Peachtree integrated. The BasX wouldn't have a chance to drive the Salon2's which are a pretty difficult load.

Re: your Denon. You only have about 5 pounds of Class AB amplification in the box (with 5 channels). The BasX would easily drive your F35's (I sell Emotiva; it's a good little amp and have sold a lot of BasX amps and a lot beefier than your receiver amps).
That's because the Concerta2's were designed to work with receivers (flatter and higher impedance curve with relatively easy speaker efficiencies). I'm not so sure you would pick up an audible benefit specifically with the Concerta2 line-up (especially if you are crossing the speakers over to your sub).
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post #16487 of 17214 Old 11-29-2019, 11:15 AM
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I noticed in your signature you have a Deon 3600H and an Emotiva BasX A-300. I assume you are using these on your Salon2s. Did you find an improvement with the A-300 over the Denon? I've got a 3300X and was looking at the A-300 for my F35's, so am curious a out your experience.
I added a A-300 to my F-36,s and it made a diff. over my Marantz 7012,cant beat it for the money.
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post #16488 of 17214 Old 11-29-2019, 02:46 PM
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Hi guys!


I'm quite new to this audio world and I need help. I stumbled on 2 deals for Revel speakers, so I searched the www to help me with my questions but I had no luck and so I am here.
Found a used Revel Performa3 M106 for $1150 and new Concerta2 F35 for $1500 (audio equipment is quite expensive and hard to find where I live)



Question: which should i get? and what to pair it with as I don't have any gear.
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post #16489 of 17214 Old 11-29-2019, 05:44 PM
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It really would be fun to do a planned "field trip" out to Harman with a group of customers/passionate enthusiasts. I bet I could get it organized.

I’m your huckleberry...
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post #16490 of 17214 Old 11-30-2019, 06:01 AM
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It really would be fun to do a planned "field trip" out to Harman with a group of customers/passionate enthusiasts. I bet I could get it organized.

I’m your huckleberry...
The wheels are already in motion. I'll see what the National Sales manager says. If Harman is interested, I'll offer to drive out some spendy speaker competition from AZ to tee up some side-by-side comparisons. People could post accordingly about what they heard.

If they said yes, I would have no shortage of passionate volunteers that would like to attend.
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post #16491 of 17214 Old 11-30-2019, 06:05 AM
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It would be interesting to blind test revels against ascend raal towers. One of members recently did comparison and preferred ascends over f206

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post #16492 of 17214 Old 11-30-2019, 06:09 AM
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Hi guys!


I'm quite new to this audio world and I need help. I stumbled on 2 deals for Revel speakers, so I searched the www to help me with my questions but I had no luck and so I am here.
Found a used Revel Performa3 M106 for $1150 and new Concerta2 F35 for $1500 (audio equipment is quite expensive and hard to find where I live)



Question: which should i get? and what to pair it with as I don't have any gear.
Considering the trade-offs, if we are talking a stereo system, go with the F36. If you have a small room and are already using a sub, then the M106's and a sub. The F36 should not be that much more than the F35. The F35 is in the product family because it has a smaller footprint and it costs less than the F35. If you have the room, I'm a huge F36 fan and I own a pair in my Revel stable. The M106 is an amazing bookshelf speaker. But you may want a little more bass (albeit they have enough for most).

If price is more important than reaching down another 10 Hz, you aren't slumming it with the M106 all by itself. But subjectively, I prefer to get lower than what the M106 or any other bookshelf can deliver. Realize I'm applying my priorities to your question. But as they say, your mileage may vary.

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post #16493 of 17214 Old 11-30-2019, 07:10 AM
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Considering the trade-offs, if we are talking a stereo system, go with the F36. If you have a small room and are already using a sub, then the M106's and a sub. The F36 should not be that much more than the F35. The F35 is in the product family because it has a smaller footprint and it costs less than the F35. If you have the room, I'm a huge F36 fan and I own a pair in my Revel stable. The M106 is an amazing bookshelf speaker. But you may want a little more bass (albeit they have enough for most).

If price is more important than reaching down another 10 Hz, you aren't slumming it with the M106 all by itself. But subjectively, I prefer to get lower than what the M106 or any other bookshelf can deliver. Realize I'm applying my priorities to your question. But as they say, your mileage may vary.

No one is selling the F36 and the F35 normal price is $2300... I plan to use it in my living room (30m2), don't plan on using a sub for now. what would you recommend for driving the speakers?
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post #16494 of 17214 Old 11-30-2019, 07:26 AM
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No one is selling the F36 and the F35 normal price is $2300... I plan to use it in my living room (30m2), don't plan on using a sub for now. what would you recommend for driving the speakers?
Personally, then I'd pick the F35 (because you are not using a sub). AND you can save $$'s because the Concerta2's are pretty easy to drive.

For the F35's: Pretty much any stereo receiver will do the trick. If you pick a brand with economy of scale (high volume which saves you money), you can save some $$'s. Heck, for fun, I tried using a HEOS amp
https://usa.denon.com/us/heos-amp and it sounded AMAZING. they now have a stereo receiver DRA-800 https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hom...eivers/dra800h for the same price that has more connectivity and a stellar little unit. You get all kinds of streaming, HDMI video switching and a sub out (with crossover).

In a prefect world, consider buying an "inexpensive" Arcam AVR390 as the price dropped. Or any other Dirac based receiver. I know some brands have some stereo Dirac pieces that cost less. But if you are on a budget and a top notch room correction is out of budget, the DRA800h will do the trick.

Good luck with your purchase. As confidently as I can make this point, if you don't like the F35's, it's your room.

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post #16495 of 17214 Old 11-30-2019, 08:28 AM
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Even when I stripped away the Harman curve (subjective applied frequency voicing) by running Dirac. As I said when I later added it in, that and that alone could easily make people rotate a speaker selection. Because at the end of the day, we are taking about small nuances whereby passionate people are caring a lot about a detail or three.

What is the Harman curve? Is that something created by Harman or created by you running Dirac?
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post #16496 of 17214 Old 11-30-2019, 08:53 AM
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What is the Harman curve? Is that something created by Harman or created by you running Dirac?
It's a profile (target frequency response) based off of their research of what people like. i.e., people like a little more bottom end and a little rolled off top end. So once a room correction rips that out (room correction aims for a flat curve), you can put back in the curve.

Realize, a lot of brands "voice" their speaker. Yet many other don't. What Harman learned through blind listening tests is that people of all walks subjectively liked their curves. Like others, I too prefer their house sound (with the Harman curve enabled).

So the Harman prepros and receivers offer this option of overlaying their target curves. You can recreate it on say, XT-32 and the D&M Audyssey app. But it's a PITA and it isn't as easy to draw accurately. So since I am LOVING Dirac, I might as well buy an Arcam. Therefore I have 3 Arcam systems now. And I plan on swapping some speakers out in my MN home to more Revel's. Again, I will swap out those prepro's to the Arcams. Speaking of which, I just got notifications that some of my new Arcam's shipped.

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post #16497 of 17214 Old 11-30-2019, 02:04 PM
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@SteveH do any of the Arcam’ have 5.1 Analog inputs?

I’m wanting for MCH music from Oppo 205
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It's a profile (target frequency response) based off of their research of what people like. i.e., people like a little more bottom end and a little rolled off top end. So once a room correction rips that out (room correction aims for a flat curve), you can put back in the curve.

Realize, a lot of brands "voice" their speaker. Yet many other don't. What Harman learned through blind listening tests is that people of all walks subjectively liked their curves. Like others, I too prefer their house sound (with the Harman curve enabled).
I don't think that this is precisely correct. It may be helpful to review this document by Floyd Toole: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=17839

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post #16499 of 17214 Old 12-01-2019, 05:16 AM
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@SteveH do any of the Arcam’ have 5.1 Analog inputs?

I’m wanting for MCH music from Oppo 205
Nope. It seems Arcam supports the KISS principal (Keep It Simple Stupid). Brands like Lyngdorf prepros have even less connectivity.

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post #16500 of 17214 Old 12-01-2019, 05:37 AM
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I don't think that this is precisely correct. It may be helpful to review this document by Floyd Toole: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=17839

Young-Ho
Thanks for sharing. I didn't get through the whole article. If I am allowed to paraphrase (still probably not precisely accurate and please correct accordingly), the curve was created to mimic a flat, smooth anechoic response in order to replicate what happens in a typical smaller in-room response. Hence the term Harman target response curve.

Next, the curve (pictured below) added bass boost to the otherwise flat, smooth in room response because of their listener research that Harman conducted showed that we subjectively preferred more bottom end. When applied the curves post Dirac, my subjective opinion was that my Revel speakers sound slightly "fuller" and "more laid back". I'm sure there is more to the story behind the Harman target response curve. So if others have better knowledge, please share.

Going back and forth wasn't fast and easy. But the new Arcam's can hold 3 stored Dirac files. I'm looking forward to more quickly compare the differences.
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