Revel Owners Thread - Page 570 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17071 of 18423 Old 01-31-2020, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
Rex, it sounds like you may not buy into the idea of the surrounds being elevated higher than ear level and the fronts. Are you satisfied with the surround sound for both music and movies? How far away are the F206’s from the prime listening position?

In my future living room, I’ll probably end up with my surrounds a bit in front of my listening position. I was glad to read Dr. Toole actually prefers this unconventional placement.
I agree with Rex in that surrounds should be at most, even with you, preferably at 110 degrees (where 0 is straight in front of you).

I have bipole surrounds in the den several feet above ear level and I think it's perfect (see pic). I get fantastic surround effects in my room. I prefer hearing the effects come from behind me rather than next to me. In my bedroom, I mounted the surround Sonos speakers above each corner of my headboard. They sounded better there than on the night tables.

For the Revel system in my living room, I'm heavily leaning towards buying a 16x16x4 concrete block to raise the tweeters above the back of the couch (I have f206's). It'll also help raise the midwoofer to ear level so that it's not playing directly into the back of the couch, which will be only a foot or foot-and-a-half from the speaker.
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post #17072 of 18423 Old 01-31-2020, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by russ_777 View Post
I certainly don't mean to sound defensive if I did. Just explaining my thinking on why, in my particular case, I no longer have any desire to "keep moving up the speaker ladder." It's to the point where better is the enemy of good enough with me. Improvements I could make elsewhere in my system are less marginal to varying degrees so that is likely where I'll focus my upgrade attention.
I agree with you there's a point where I would no longer be willing to pay to upgrade, unless I become a billionaire

If they increase performance by 1% and double the price, I'll stick with the Salon2.

I guess I was more just interested in hearing others thoughts on how they could improve the Salon2(at any cost), even if it pushes it out of my reasonable price range.

The science based approach is what really attracts me to Harman, and I feel like there's always ways to use science to improve any speaker.

I just started reading Audio Science Review forums a lot lately. Not sure what their reputation is here . They seem to be really big on speakers like D&D 8C, and most agree they measure better than the Salon2s. I think I saw Floyd mention they have problems with floor bounce, though. That, and their max output is like 108db, which is much less than the Salon2, and which I already know would probably be a letdown for me in my great room at 4m mlp and coming from my current setup, no how much better they sound at the same volume. They also don't seem to have anywhere near the sophisticated cabinetry that the Salon2 has. They (imo) compromise sound quality in order maintain a small size(which I really don't care about). Still the fact that they manage to best the Salon2 in certain ways(according to ARS), at half the price, and with a smaller and worse cabinet, has me wondering how much better the Salon2 could be if it fully embraced the software and dsp based science that the D&D 8C uses.

Just interested in how much better it can get I guess. Going active, fully embracing software, and offloading bass to modules that can be independently placed seem like good ideas to me, but I'm curious what others think.

I like the fact that you mention live music in your last post. The fact that live, unamplified music still sounds so much better than the best we have is good evidence that we still have a long ways to go. It may be physically impossible to get there with box based loudspeakers(I definitely think it's impossible with stereo), but who knows what the future will hold for audio.

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post #17073 of 18423 Old 01-31-2020, 04:31 PM
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some of the latest high end speaker prices seem to indicate it may be of better value to build your own amphitheater in home from the listening I have done and research on the net...at used prices, the salon 2's seem to be a smart choice.

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post #17074 of 18423 Old 01-31-2020, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I think Dr. Toole was referring to side surrounds as in a 7.1 configuration. I have heard other folks say they liked side surrounds slightly in front as opposed to at 90 degrees. If using a 5.1 configuration, I think it's best to go at 90 degrees or behind your head if possible. Of course not every room accommodates ideal placement. I'd have 9.4.4 if my room (and budget) would allow it, lol.

I have had surrounds both ways (different speakers, different houses). I did like them elevated and angled down (previous house). I did some serious listening last night and worked on toe in. Made a noticeable improvement. I may experiment with raising them up some, but like what I'm hearing now for music, need to spend more time with movies. After adjusting toe in and spending time with different upmix options in my Lexicon MC-10, I decided to just settle on one and enjoy the music. I tend to obsess on technical details and forget about the whole point of all of this.....
Yes, ideally I’d like to have the surrounds a bit behind me, but with my future room, it would entail putting the right surround speaker near the island in the kitchen (see photo). The right side wall is only 9’ long. I’ll have an 85” TV on the wall and thinking F206’s will be about 8 feet apart (that gives me about 10 inches from the TV edge to the speaker edge) and a couple of feet out from the wall. If I sit 8 feet back from the speakers, that’s 10 feet from the wall and TV. I don’t think I could sit any closer, correct?

If my plan doesn’t work, I can pull the right surround speaker back just behind me near the kitchen island when using it and then move it back next to the wall when I’m not. That could be annoying, so, I hope original plan works!
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post #17075 of 18423 Old 01-31-2020, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
Yes, ideally I’d like to have the surrounds a bit behind me, but with my future room, it would entail putting the right surround speaker near the island in the kitchen (see photo). The right side wall is only 9’ long. I’ll have an 85” TV on the wall and thinking F206’s will be about 8 feet apart (that gives me about 10 inches from the TV edge to the speaker edge) and a couple of feet out from the wall. If I sit 8 feet back from the speakers, that’s 10 feet from the wall and TV. I don’t think I could sit any closer, correct?



If my plan doesn’t work, I can pull the right surround speaker back just behind me near the kitchen island when using it and then move it back next to the wall when I’m not. That could be annoying, so, I hope original plan works!
Different room, but similar equipment.

85" TV f206 up front, c208 on console in the middle under TV, surrounds will be slightly behind mlp. Still debating on rears for 7.2.4 instead of 5.2.4.

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post #17076 of 18423 Old 01-31-2020, 10:49 PM
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ML13,

Not much content in the RRS and RLS.

Maybe prewire but hold off on additional speakers and amps.

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post #17077 of 18423 Old 01-31-2020, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark424x View Post
I'm putting in Revel C763L ceiling speakers both for master bedroom L/R and Living Room L/C/R, curious if they have a recommended toe-in angle, can't find anything from Revel. Has anyone experimented?

Thanks

Mark
Not sure I follow the toe in regarding an in ceiling.

You can aim the speaker to some degree to the listener since the driver arrangement is angled.

The C763L is only 15-20 degree tilt as I recall. That said there are alternatives with a greater angled basket if you haven’t pulled the trigger.

I have a friend in your area (small world) that did a 7.x in ceiling (subs were free standing on the floor) and got excellent results but used a different speaker than you mentioned.

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post #17078 of 18423 Old 02-01-2020, 05:57 AM
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Can someone who has owned or compared (with like equipment) the F208 with the F228be, share their personal listening experience on sound difference (e.g. tonality, soundstage, transparency, etc). I’ve owned the F208 for about 3 years, purchased new without listening to them (first time ever due to lack of dealers in the Atlanta area, and basing decision strictly on rave professional reviews). Speakers were for my bedroom. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed them, but finding lately they are become bland, not as exciting or dynamic, just good solid pleasing sound, despite some very good equipment (Pass Labs XP20 recent upgrade, XA30.5, Marantz SA11S2, AQ Earth, Aspen recent upgrade).

I just recently compared a set of Focal 1008BE bookshelf speakers that I have for my upstairs room vs the F208, with same equipment in my bedroom, and really like what I was missing from the F208s. Now I’m getting the itch to replace the F208 with another floor standing speakers, either the BE line or moving to Focal Electra or Sopra. I seem to like the sound of speakers with beryllium tweeters.
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post #17079 of 18423 Old 02-01-2020, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
When you click the C763L spin to see the chart, it displays the C760 chart. Ugh.
Hi, on the same page there is an explanation:
Quote:
Note: Most of the Spinorama data belongs to the 2nd generation Revel architectural speakers that have model numbers that end on a zero "xx0". According to Revel, the current 3rd generation architectural speakers are almost identical to the 2nd generation with the main difference being "C-2 Advanced dog-leg mounting mechanism". The 3rd generation was introduced only one year after the 2nd generation (in 2012) and has model numbers that end on a three "xx3".
So do you have any information that would suggest that C763 measures any differently than C760?




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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
There is no way some of those spins represent how the in wall and in ceiling look if measured properly, especially the C763L.

When I was at Harman, they showed us the anechoic chamber with the method they devised to measure in wall and in ceiling speakers.
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Unless Revel becomes more forthcoming with spins for all their speakers, it would seem that consumers have to rely on what they can find posted by third parties. If these measurements aren't correct, Revel should set the record straight.

Based on the spin of the C763L posted on that site, its not a speaker I would buy. I'm not in the market for it, but still.
Sorry, but it is clearly visible that those measurements are done by Harman using Harman equipment and the same format as lots of other Harman measurements that nobody has issues with. In fact, I am quite sure the original source of those measurements was Revel Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pg/RevelSpe...52851274747143

At the same time - "good news" - Harman's measurements of other in-wall and in-ceiling speakers are quite scary-bad. So either Revel is better than most alternatives anyway, or there are more tricks at play due to different room-speaker interaction when a speaker is mounted in the wall.
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post #17080 of 18423 Old 02-01-2020, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
You are comparing apples to oranges. Bookshelf speakers with limited LF extension and SPL capability to large full range floor standing speakers with high output capability.

It has been stated many times, Revel has not put time, effort and expense into improving the Salon2 because it has not been beaten in their double blind listening tests.

How much better do you think it can get and at what price? Harman discussed raising the price of the Salon 2, which has not changed since the release in 2007. Inflation alone says it should now sell for $28,000. The cost of the cabinet has gone up substantially. I assume the cost to manufacture the drivers and crossovers has increased too.

Show me a speaker with a list price of $22K/pair that is equal to or "better" than the Salon2. The only other speaker I know of is the JBL M2 that requires outboard crossovers/processing and is thus similarly priced.
Really? well it is the revel forum. all together now hip hip hooray salon 2's the best weeeee.

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post #17081 of 18423 Old 02-01-2020, 11:06 AM
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Revel could make the salon 2 better by making them an easier load.
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post #17082 of 18423 Old 02-01-2020, 01:48 PM
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Revel could make the salon 2 better by making them an easier load.
Someone mentioned making them active speakers, too, which was a pretty interesting idea. It's a given that adding amplification won't help the price. OTOH who better than the manufacturer to pair the amp they like with the speaker they make.
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post #17083 of 18423 Old 02-01-2020, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
Yes, ideally I’d like to have the surrounds a bit behind me, but with my future room, it would entail putting the right surround speaker near the island in the kitchen (see photo). The right side wall is only 9’ long. I’ll have an 85” TV on the wall and thinking F206’s will be about 8 feet apart (that gives me about 10 inches from the TV edge to the speaker edge) and a couple of feet out from the wall. If I sit 8 feet back from the speakers, that’s 10 feet from the wall and TV. I don’t think I could sit any closer, correct?

If my plan doesn’t work, I can pull the right surround speaker back just behind me near the kitchen island when using it and then move it back next to the wall when I’m not. That could be annoying, so, I hope original plan works!

What about using a pair of C763L in ceiling for rear surrounds? They would be above your head, aimed at the MLP and can be placed optimally. With subs and if you don't play extremely loud, they should handle all but the most demanding rear surround material. https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/su...5-1-setup.html
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post #17084 of 18423 Old 02-01-2020, 07:48 PM
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Currently have an Infinity Reference setup which I'm really happy with but I'm looking to move up to towers and the F206 is the frontrunner at the moment. Usage is roughly 65% music and 35% movies. I'd like the matching C208 center but it's simply too big for it to work in my living room setup and I'm concerned that the 5.25" two way C205 may be slightly undersized for my room. My current center is the Infinity Reference RC263, which is a three way with two 6.5" woofers and a 4" midrange that's been great and just barely fits behind the acoustic screen in my entertainment center. Does anyone have any thoughts on pairing the F206s with the Infinity center? I know it's not ideal for timbre matching but I'm wondering if it may be serviceable given that it's still a Harman design and according to some reminds them of Revel's product lines. I'm not doing anything like 5.1 music where the lack of timbre matching would likely be immediately noticeable. Really wish Revel had a proper 3 way center with 6.5" woofers that slotted in between the C205 and C208 but I realize having three centers in a product line may be a bit excessive



On a related note, if anyone is looking to unload their F206s (preferably in white) or knows of a dealer with B stock or who is really looking to cut a deal feel free to shoot me a PM
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post #17085 of 18423 Old 02-01-2020, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Vocan View Post
Currently have an Infinity Reference setup which I'm really happy with but I'm looking to move up to towers and the F206 is the frontrunner at the moment. Usage is roughly 65% music and 35% movies. I'd like the matching C208 center but it's simply too big for it to work in my living room setup and I'm concerned that the 5.25" two way C205 may be slightly undersized for my room. My current center is the Infinity Reference RC263, which is a three way with two 6.5" woofers and a 4" midrange that's been great and just barely fits behind the acoustic screen in my entertainment center. Does anyone have any thoughts on pairing the F206s with the Infinity center? I know it's not ideal for timbre matching but I'm wondering if it may be serviceable given that it's still a Harman design and according to some reminds them of Revel's product lines. I'm not doing anything like 5.1 music where the lack of timbre matching would likely be immediately noticeable. Really wish Revel had a proper 3 way center with 6.5" woofers that slotted in between the C205 and C208 but I realize having three centers in a product line may be a bit excessive



On a related note, if anyone is looking to unload their F206s (preferably in white) or knows of a dealer with B stock or who is really looking to cut a deal feel free to shoot me a PM
I had the RC263 for a while and it blended perfectly with my M16s. I bet it will be more than fine with F206s.
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post #17086 of 18423 Old 02-03-2020, 07:53 AM
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Hope this is OK - want to give a shout out to Audio Video Logic in Des Moines and to their Revel Rep. I was interested in the FE226BE which would have been by far the most expensive stereo purchase of my long life. This newer model is not yet fully stocked and it would have been months to wait for them. The Revel Rep offered the bigger, awards hog FE228BE at an unbelievable price and of course I took it. I don't want to go into too many details as Revel probably could not afford to do this for everyone but this 64 year old is forever grateful that I was one of the lucky ones.
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post #17087 of 18423 Old 02-03-2020, 08:59 AM
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Hope this is OK - want to give a shout out to Audio Video Logic in Des Moines and to their Revel Rep. I was interested in the FE226BE which would have been by far the most expensive stereo purchase of my long life. This newer model is not yet fully stocked and it would have been months to wait for them. The Revel Rep offered the bigger, awards hog FE228BE at an unbelievable price and of course I took it. I don't want to go into too many details as Revel probably could not afford to do this for everyone but this 64 year old is forever grateful that I was one of the lucky ones.

30% off I’m guessing? Nice.

Revel can definitely afford to give everyone this discount fwiw.

Enjoy!
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #17088 of 18423 Old 02-03-2020, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
What about using a pair of C763L in ceiling for rear surrounds? They would be above your head, aimed at the MLP and can be placed optimally. With subs and if you don't play extremely loud, they should handle all but the most demanding rear surround material. https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/su...5-1-setup.html
I was thinking about that, but that would put the surrounds in my 5.2.4 system at the same height as the Atmos speakers. I guess it’s a decision on what sacrifice to accept: 1). Put the surrounds at the correct depth, but incorrect height by putting them in the ceiling or 2). Put them at the correct height, but incorrect depth just a bit in front of the listening position just above ear level.

Another option I considered was skipping an Atmos setup and do a 5.2 or 7.2 system where I would put all the surround and rear speakers in the ceiling. I know Atmos is somewhat in its infancy, but I’m thinking in a few years I’ll be happy to have the 5.2.4 setup for not only Atmos, but also as DTS:X grows in popularity.
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post #17089 of 18423 Old 02-04-2020, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I think Dr. Toole was referring to side surrounds as in a 7.1 configuration. I have heard other folks say they liked side surrounds slightly in front as opposed to at 90 degrees. If using a 5.1 configuration, I think it's best to go at 90 degrees or behind your head if possible. Of course not every room accommodates ideal placement. I'd have 9.4.4 if my room (and budget) would allow it, lol.

I have had surrounds both ways (different speakers, different houses). I did like them elevated and angled down (previous house). I did some serious listening last night and worked on toe in. Made a noticeable improvement. I may experiment with raising them up some, but like what I'm hearing now for music, need to spend more time with movies. After adjusting toe in and spending time with different upmix options in my Lexicon MC-10, I decided to just settle on one and enjoy the music. I tend to obsess on technical details and forget about the whole point of all of this.....
Rex, could you share a few specifics on which speakers you adjusted and how they are aimed now? There are probably at least a couple of us that would like to leverage what you found has worked well.

My surround channels (M106) are at about 110 degrees aimed at the MLP. On the Revel M stands, that puts the tweeter of the M106 at about 36" so a lot of sound sprays the back of my couch rather than listeners ears. That has me thinking about raising them to get closer to the tweeter height on the fronts (F208) at 43". What height, angle and aiming is working well for you?


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post #17090 of 18423 Old 02-04-2020, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
I was thinking about that, but that would put the surrounds in my 5.2.4 system at the same height as the Atmos speakers. I guess it’s a decision on what sacrifice to accept: 1). Put the surrounds at the correct depth, but incorrect height by putting them in the ceiling or 2). Put them at the correct height, but incorrect depth just a bit in front of the listening position just above ear level.

Another option I considered was skipping an Atmos setup and do a 5.2 or 7.2 system where I would put all the surround and rear speakers in the ceiling. I know Atmos is somewhat in its infancy, but I’m thinking in a few years I’ll be happy to have the 5.2.4 setup for not only Atmos, but also as DTS:X grows in popularity.

That was my dilemma. My local store with the JBL Synthesis theater recommended a 5.2.2 system with 2 c763l's for front Atmos and 2 c763l's for surround. In the end, I chose f206's as surrounds so that I could have 4 Atmos speakers while keeping the base 5 speakers at ear level.
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post #17091 of 18423 Old 02-04-2020, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
I was thinking about that, but that would put the surrounds in my 5.2.4 system at the same height as the Atmos speakers. I guess it’s a decision on what sacrifice to accept: 1). Put the surrounds at the correct depth, but incorrect height by putting them in the ceiling or 2). Put them at the correct height, but incorrect depth just a bit in front of the listening position just above ear level.

Another option I considered was skipping an Atmos setup and do a 5.2 or 7.2 system where I would put all the surround and rear speakers in the ceiling. I know Atmos is somewhat in its infancy, but I’m thinking in a few years I’ll be happy to have the 5.2.4 setup for not only Atmos, but also as DTS:X grows in popularity.
If you had to put surrounds in ceiling I think I would do 5.x.2

This way you can distance separation even if on the same plane.

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post #17092 of 18423 Old 02-04-2020, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
Rex, could you share a few specifics on which speakers you adjusted and how they are aimed now? There are probably at least a couple of us that would like to leverage what you found has worked well. My surround channels (M106) are at about 110 degrees aimed at the MLP. On the Revel M stands, that puts the tweeter of the M106 at about 36" so a lot of sound sprays the back of my couch rather than listeners ears. That has me thinking about raising them to get closer to the tweeter height on the fronts (F208) at 43". What height, angle and aiming is working well for you?

I will post my setup and pics when I have more time.

Last edited by Rex Anderson; 02-04-2020 at 07:26 PM.
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post #17093 of 18423 Old 02-04-2020, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
Someone mentioned making them active speakers, too, which was a pretty interesting idea. It's a given that adding amplification won't help the price. OTOH who better than the manufacturer to pair the amp they like with the speaker they make.
Won't make them easier to move, either...
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post #17094 of 18423 Old 02-04-2020, 11:34 AM
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Talking

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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post

Revel can definitely afford to give everyone this discount fwiw.
Revel ain’t giving the discount.

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post #17095 of 18423 Old 02-04-2020, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
It’s only a year old but I have a C426Be arriving next week to match my F228Be fronts.

Very nice
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post #17096 of 18423 Old 02-04-2020, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by steven59 View Post
Really? well it is the revel forum. all together now hip hip hooray salon 2's the best weeeee.
Yes Steven, it is the Revel Owners Thread.
Do you own Revel speakers or are currently in the market for them?

Look no one looks down on you or cares what speaker you bought.
Members here gave you a lot of support with your issues.

Also a fact that I do not remember anyone having the issue(s) that you had.
So Salon2s didn't work out for you.
Good thing there are a ton of other companies & you could find a speaker that satisfied you.
Why come back and mock satisfied owners & people asking honest questions & expressing honest opinions?

I've never had the feeling that this thread claims anything but they're satisfaction without disdain.
We've had the invaluable contributions of Dr. Toole.
No one ever mentions this but along with other Harman International employees, they've never been driven off the forum.
Says everything to me.

 
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post #17097 of 18423 Old 02-04-2020, 06:17 PM
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Revel C25 vs C205

I am in the process of auditioning speakers at a couple dealers in my vicinity. There is a good chance that I will purchase the Revel F206's. I would like to purchase a Revel center speaker at the same time in order to replace the my entire HT front speakers. I have researched the C25 and the C205. Other than the C205 being 8 ohms (vs 6) and having a slightly larger cabinet, there does not seem to be a lot of difference between the two on paper.

I would like to hear from anyone that has heard them both and can offer any insight into whether the more expensive C205 provides a clearly better listening experience for the added cost. (I use my system for 60/40 music/movies and do listen to multi-channel music at times, so the center channel is also important for music in my system.)

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post #17098 of 18423 Old 02-04-2020, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark6088 View Post
I am in the process of auditioning speakers at a couple dealers in my vicinity. There is a good chance that I will purchase the Revel F206's. I would like to purchase a Revel center speaker at the same time in order to replace the my entire HT front speakers. I have researched the C25 and the C205. Other than the C205 being 8 ohms (vs 6) and having a slightly larger cabinet, there does not seem to be a lot of difference between the two on paper. I would like to hear from anyone that has heard them both and can offer any insight into whether the more expensive C205 provides a clearly better listening experience for the added cost. (I use my system for 60/40 music/movies and do listen to multi-channel music at times, so the center channel is also important for music in my system.)
Every step up the ladder is audible to me. I would try to stay with all Performa 3 series if budget allows.

C25 is 20 lbs, C205 is 26 pounds. Some of the extra weight may be cabinet and some is certainly heavier drivers (bigger motor structures).
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post #17099 of 18423 Old 02-05-2020, 05:17 AM
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My C426Be is now sitting at local UPS freight... Anxiously awaiting the call to setup delivery. Very excited, I didn’t realize that monster is a full 10” wider than the C208!
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post #17100 of 18423 Old 02-05-2020, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
My C426Be is now sitting at local UPS freight... Anxiously awaiting the call to setup delivery. Very excited, I didn’t realize that monster is a full 10” wider than the C208!
Surprising it is only 10 lbs heavier.

The good thing is you won't hurt your back!

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