Revel Owners Thread - Page 581 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17401 of 18476 Old 03-04-2020, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
I take that bet.
The part about the AVR, or the speakers/subs?
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post #17402 of 18476 Old 03-04-2020, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
The part about the AVR, or the speakers/subs?
AVR and speakers
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post #17403 of 18476 Old 03-04-2020, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
AVR and speakers
OK, as far as my AVR goes, it provides a signal to my speakers with .005% or lower distortion within its clean operating range with a flat frequency response within the audible spectrum. I'm curious, in your opinion, what would improve the sound from this signal since it would appear that this is audibly transparent? Legitimate question, and just providing the objective data that leads me to believe that more expensive electronics wouldn't matter(unless I needed more power).
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post #17404 of 18476 Old 03-04-2020, 05:06 PM
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this guy has only recommended 1 avr to date...lol. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...pment_Reviews/

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300 LG oled c9 77
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post #17405 of 18476 Old 03-04-2020, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
OK, as far as my AVR goes, it provides a signal to my speakers with .005% or lower distortion within its clean operating range with a flat frequency response within the audible spectrum. I'm curious, in your opinion, what would improve the sound from this signal since it would appear that this is audibly transparent? Legitimate question, and just providing the objective data that leads me to believe that more expensive electronics wouldn't matter(unless I needed more power).
You seem to bury yourself in objective data. Have you ever listened to other equipment to see if you can actually hear a difference.
I have a Marantz SR 8012 and Lexicon RV9. The RV9 makes a remarkable improvement in SQ.
As for your speakers. I owned Revel RF 32 for 6 or 7 years before upgrading to Klipsch Forte lll . I will take the Klipsch any day. I also have Bryston Mini A (cost less than F36) that I would choose over the F36. I would also take Dali Opticon 8 any day. Just to name a few.
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post #17406 of 18476 Old 03-04-2020, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
this guy has only recommended 1 avr to date...lol. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...pment_Reviews/

Basically every AVR is considered to have a "garbage" DAC, amp, or both.
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post #17407 of 18476 Old 03-04-2020, 06:07 PM
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this guy was helpful to me.

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post #17408 of 18476 Old 03-04-2020, 08:03 PM
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Finally unboxed my f206's and f226be's.
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5.2.4 system: Anthem MRX1120 | Revel f226be L/R | c426be center (**ETA for delivery is 7/20**) | f206 surrounds | c763l (Atmos front and back) | dual Rythmik F18 subwoofers | miniDSP 2x4HD | Apple TV 4K | Panasonic UB820 | Sony XBR65x950g (will upgrade to 77" OLED) | Panamax M5400-PM | Salamander Oslo 237 AV cabinet
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post #17409 of 18476 Old 03-04-2020, 09:22 PM
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Finally unboxed my f206's and f226be's.
Awesome, getting me excited for when my house is done in a few months.

Your gonna need some serious rugs!

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post #17410 of 18476 Old 03-05-2020, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
You seem to bury yourself in objective data. Have you ever listened to other equipment to see if you can actually hear a difference.
I have a Marantz SR 8012 and Lexicon RV9. The RV9 makes a remarkable improvement in SQ.
There are many decisions that can more reliably be made based on facts rather than flawed subjective impressions that are affected by failure to level match, bias, etc.

I don't need to "hear" an audiophile amp to know that I can't "hear" amps....only the speakers, if the amp is audibly transparent. And I know that I won't hear the difference between the .005% distortion my amp produces compared to the distortion at, around, or lower than this from another much more expensive amp. I do know that when folks know they are listening to the shiny expensive amp, they will hear a difference even if the amp is not switched. I can accept the fact the human hearing is easily fooled by factors other than the actual sound being produced, and I choose to filter out these imaginary differences.

There are many examples of why it is unnecessary to experience something yourself to know it is true or not. I don't have to sail around the world to know it is round and not flat. Not having sailed around it is not proof that it isn't round.

The same goes for well designed amps being sonically indistinguishable from one another. I know there are poorly designed audiophile amps that intentionally use distortion and poor frequency response to color the sound; these are disqualified based on not being well designed amps.

If your Lexicon is well designed, eliminating the difference in sound that room correction will make....5 watts from your Marantz or 5 watts from the Lexicon will not sound any different in a valid comparison. Valid being level matched and blind so your bias does not affect what you think you hear.
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post #17411 of 18476 Old 03-05-2020, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
My only setup is also in my living room, but I am able to place my subs where they work pretty well. I’ll post my in room response later when I get home. I think the point of diminish returns hits very quickly, and although my AVR was only $600, I believe it is audibly as high fidelity as any equipment made when operated below clipping. Likewise for speakers/subs, I believe speakers 10X the price would be a marginal improvement at best.


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There are many decisions that can more reliably be made based on facts rather than flawed subjective impressions that are affected by failure to level match, bias, etc.

I
don't need to "hear" an audiophile amp to know that I can't "hear" amps....only the speakers, if the amp is audibly transparent. And I know that I won't hear the difference between the .005% distortion my amp produces compared to the distortion at, around, or lower than this from another much more expensive amp. I do know that when folks know they are listening to the shiny expensive amp, they will hear a difference even if the amp is not switched. I can accept the fact the human hearing is easily fooled by factors other than the actual sound being produced, and I choose to filter out these imaginary differences.

There are many examples of why it is unnecessary to experience something yourself to know it is true or not. I don't have to sail around the world to know it is round and not flat. Not having sailed around it is not proof that it isn't round.

The same goes for well designed amps being sonically indistinguishable from one another. I know there are poorly designed audiophile amps that intentionally use distortion and poor frequency response to color the sound; these are disqualified based on not being well designed amps.

If your Lexicon is well designed, eliminating the difference in sound that room correction will make....5 watts from your Marantz or 5 watts from the Lexicon will not sound any different in a valid comparison. Valid being level matched and blind so your bias does not affect what you think you hear.
Your highlighted statement (first one) is purely subjective, yet you say I am wrong for not using objective evidence.

I am well aware of all you have said about amps sounding the same. I am not totally convinced that is true. However, there is more to an AVR than an amp. I have not disputed your measurements as measurements speak for themselves. I also have no doubt that your system sounds great. i also believe that you might have some bias as most do.

I am not hung up on audiophile equipment. In fact I am satisfied with middle of the road priced equipment. I used an Onkyo 797 AVR and thought it sounded better on movies than the Marantz. I also would not have the Lexicon if I hadn't gotten a deal I could not refuse.

When listening to 2 channel music the Marantz produced a wide front stage. There was little to no separation of instruments. Bass just sounded like, well, bass. The R9 has much better separation of instruments. Front stage is wide. Bass notes are more articulate and natural sounding. Movies are much more immersive with the R9.

I ran DIRAC in a half fast manner just to get a feel of it. This is the first time I have left RC turned on. IMO XT32 can't compare.

I realize you are reciting all that you have read (probably for years). If those thoughts make you happy that is great.
OTH I have found that listening to equipment in home in a relaxed manner is much different than switching back and forth trying do identify differences.
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post #17412 of 18476 Old 03-05-2020, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Your highlighted statement (first one) is purely subjective, yet you say I am wrong for not using objective evidence.



I am well aware of all you have said about amps sounding the same. I am not totally convinced that is true. However, there is more to an AVR than an amp. I have not disputed your measurements as measurements speak for themselves. I also have no doubt that your system sounds great. i also believe that you might have some bias as most do.



I am not hung up on audiophile equipment. In fact I am satisfied with middle of the road priced equipment. I used an Onkyo 797 AVR and thought it sounded better on movies than the Marantz. I also would not have the Lexicon if I hadn't gotten a deal I could not refuse.



When listening to 2 channel music the Marantz produced a wide front stage. There was little to no separation of instruments. Bass just sounded like, well, bass. The R9 has much better separation of instruments. Front stage is wide. Bass notes are more articulate and natural sounding. Movies are much more immersive with the R9.



I ran DIRAC in a half fast manner just to get a feel of it. This is the first time I have left RC turned on. IMO XT32 can't compare.



I realize you are reciting all that you have read (probably for years). If those thoughts make you happy that is great.

OTH I have found that listening to equipment in home in a relaxed manner is much different than switching back and forth trying do identify differences.


Interesting to be able to compare Dirac to Audyssey, I haven’t had the opportunity to compare them. Do you correct full range?

I agree bias affects everyone, including myself. I’m interested in doing a blind A/B between my Denon and a SOTA external amp. I’m biased to believe I won’t hear a difference until my AVR runs out of power, but it’s why I would do it blind.

I have no doubt however that different room corrections would very audibly affect the sound. I do think subjective preference is the correct arbiter for which form of room correction is better. A large study with lots of listeners is needed imo as we don’t have good recent data on this. Many prefer Dirac, but I’ve seen some who prefer Audyssey


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post #17413 of 18476 Old 03-05-2020, 07:24 AM
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Awesome, getting me excited for when my house is done in a few months.

Your gonna need some serious rugs!

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My wife likes this 9'x12' rug: https://www.wayfair.com/rugs/pdp/wro...iid=1865441547


And I might put this underneath it to help absorption: https://www.rugpadusa.com/collection...ud-comfort-1-4
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And I might put this underneath it to help absorption: https://www.rugpadusa.com/collection...ud-comfort-1-4

I bought a pad from that company a couple of years ago for a similar sized rug. It wasn't cheap, but it was worth it because they will cut the pad to custom sizes.
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post #17415 of 18476 Old 03-06-2020, 06:14 AM
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Revel Owners Thread

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Interesting to be able to compare Dirac to Audyssey, I haven’t had the opportunity to compare them. Do you correct full range?

I agree bias affects everyone, including myself. I’m interested in doing a blind A/B between my Denon and a SOTA external amp. I’m biased to believe I won’t hear a difference until my AVR runs out of power, but it’s why I would do it blind.

I have no doubt however that different room corrections would very audibly affect the sound. I do think subjective preference is the correct arbiter for which form of room correction is better. A large study with lots of listeners is needed imo as we don’t have good recent data on this. Many prefer Dirac, but I’ve seen some who prefer Audyssey


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What you may or may not hear also involves the source material, source player, preamp processing and the speakers. Salon 2s will be more demanding of amps as well as more resolving of the entire chain than $300-600 bookshelf speakers. With decent quality amps the preamp function IMO has a bigger SQ impact than different amps. Using a midrange AVR as a preamp will not likely provide a transparent source IMO. The lower the fidelity of the chain, the more likely things will sound the same. Processing, including what it takes to divide signals to the subs and mains can add distortions that many find less appealing, including me. Amp differences can be so subtle it may take days to distinguish in my experience. Also where my hearing may have been exceptional in my younger days does not apply anymore.


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post #17416 of 18476 Old 03-06-2020, 09:56 AM
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I just read a very flattering review of the F226Be in hometheaterreview.com – check it out.
I have heard the Salons at a few shows but never the PerformaBe series. How close are these to the Salon and does it share the same family sound? If they are close, I would consider picking up a new/used pair of M126Be to play with to see if I wanted to take the plunge into a F328Be or maybe a Salon3 (if it ever comes out). So, has anyone compared the M126Be to the F226Be/F228Be/F328Be? Clearly the M126Be are designed for a smaller room and do not have the dynamics and low-end response of their bigger siblings.
Hi, the dealer I bought the salon2’s from literally replaced them with the f228be. Exactly same room, components, everything and I had 0 buyers remorse. A used pair of salon2s can be had for the list price of the f228be.

Now there’s some things to consider and building a system that can get the most out of the salons is going to cost more and in the dealers system with his sota mark Levinson gear the salon2 has a higher ceiling, in my system the 228 might have been a better match.
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post #17417 of 18476 Old 03-06-2020, 12:44 PM
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Basically every AVR is considered to have a "garbage" DAC, amp, or both.
You can get, under the right circumstances, very good sound out of relatively mediocre electronics. A lot depends on circuit design and noise filtering AND the speakers you are driving. I have seen sonic improvements every time I've upgraded my AVR/PrePro. I started with a Denon 3605 (then added amps to that), then went to an Onkyo 886, then a Marantz 8802 and now a Marantz 8805.

The biggest and most startling difference was actually the last upgrade from the 8802 to the 8805. I understand that the 8805's don't measure well (hence the recommendation in that guy's list), but it sounds very, very close to my much more expensive 2 channel gear. Its very "musical" with the Revels (last line to keep us tracking to the forum... )

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post #17418 of 18476 Old 03-07-2020, 07:48 AM
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You can get, under the right circumstances, very good sound out of relatively mediocre electronics. A lot depends on circuit design and noise filtering AND the speakers you are driving. I have seen sonic improvements every time I've upgraded my AVR/PrePro. I started with a Denon 3605 (then added amps to that), then went to an Onkyo 886, then a Marantz 8802 and now a Marantz 8805.

The biggest and most startling difference was actually the last upgrade from the 8802 to the 8805. I understand that the 8805's don't measure well (hence the recommendation in that guy's list), but it sounds very, very close to my much more expensive 2 channel gear. Its very "musical" with the Revels (last line to keep us tracking to the forum... )

My comment was referring to some of the commentary on AVSR, not the electronics themselves. The measurements are certainly useful, but the analysis is often inflexible and lacks context. For AVRs in particular, it seems they are compared to standalone DACs and amplifiers, and when their noise and distortion figures obviously fall short, it is concluded that they are horrible and must be designed by ignoramuses.
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post #17419 of 18476 Old 03-07-2020, 08:42 AM
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After a couple of weeks, I have finally gotten my 3.1 system, consisting of a pair of F206s and a C205 (thanks Rex!), dialed in. Since I set up the 3.1 system, I've been mentally bandying about ideas for surround speakers. I have moved between the M106 on stands to the F36/F35. Now, I am thinking it makes the most sense to maintain symmetry and add another pair of F206s. The F206 is not significantly more expensive than the M106 + stands and has nearly the same dimensions as the F36.
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post #17420 of 18476 Old 03-07-2020, 12:40 PM
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After a couple of weeks, I have finally gotten my 3.1 system, consisting of a pair of F206s and a C205 (thanks Rex!), dialed in. Since I set up the 3.1 system, I've been mentally bandying about ideas for surround speakers. I have moved between the M106 on stands to the F36/F35. Now, I am thinking it makes the most sense to maintain symmetry and add another pair of F206s. The F206 is not significantly more expensive than the M106 + stands and has nearly the same dimensions as the F36.

It would be hard to beat having four F206's. I have done similar systems for others and my system is very similar (F208's front L/R, C208 center, F206's surround L/R). I'm pretty picky, but am very happy with my system as it is now. Some day I may sell it all and upgrade to PerformaBe series or even Ultima2 series, but I would have to win big here in Vegas for that to happen any time soon, lol.
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The platforms for my f206 surrounds came out great. Sorry I don't have pics of the speakers out of their boxes yet! Eventually I'll find some time. This past weekend my boys had their Pinewood Derby for Cub Scouts. They finished 1st and 2nd in the pack overall (1st for their age groups), so I guess it was time well spent working on their cars all week.
I did something just like this for my Gallo Reference 3s when they were my main speakers. They are shortish and I wanted to cast a taller soundstage. Worked like a dream.

Revel Ultima Salon2 x2; Paradigm Servo-15; Denon AVR-4311CI; Apple MacMini; Audirvana 3.5; Spotify Premium; Amazon Music HD; Sony UBP-X1000ES; Roku Ultra; Vizio 75 PQX, JVC RS40; DaLite 102" screen; Gallo Reference 3.5 x4; Gallo Strada II x1; Denon AVR-3805
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post #17422 of 18476 Old 03-07-2020, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
There are many decisions that can more reliably be made based on facts rather than flawed subjective impressions that are affected by failure to level match, bias, etc.

I don't need to "hear" an audiophile amp to know that I can't "hear" amps....only the speakers, if the amp is audibly transparent. And I know that I won't hear the difference between the .005% distortion my amp produces compared to the distortion at, around, or lower than this from another much more expensive amp. I do know that when folks know they are listening to the shiny expensive amp, they will hear a difference even if the amp is not switched. I can accept the fact the human hearing is easily fooled by factors other than the actual sound being produced, and I choose to filter out these imaginary differences.

There are many examples of why it is unnecessary to experience something yourself to know it is true or not. I don't have to sail around the world to know it is round and not flat. Not having sailed around it is not proof that it isn't round.

The same goes for well designed amps being sonically indistinguishable from one another. I know there are poorly designed audiophile amps that intentionally use distortion and poor frequency response to color the sound; these are disqualified based on not being well designed amps.

If your Lexicon is well designed, eliminating the difference in sound that room correction will make....5 watts from your Marantz or 5 watts from the Lexicon will not sound any different in a valid comparison. Valid being level matched and blind so your bias does not affect what you think you hear.
I made it about half way through your post when it became clear that you assign cognitive error as the basis for any opinion contrary to yours.
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post #17423 of 18476 Old 03-07-2020, 03:41 PM
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I have done similar systems for others and my system is very similar (F208's front L/R, C208 center, F206's surround L/R). I'm pretty picky, but am very happy with my system as it is now. Some day I may sell it all and upgrade to PerformaBe series or even Ultima2 series, but I would have to win big here in Vegas for that to happen any time soon, lol.
I use F206s as my surround L/Rs with Studio2s up front and I am not motivated to change them.
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post #17424 of 18476 Old 03-07-2020, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
I use F206s as my surround L/Rs with Studio2s up front and I am not motivated to change them.
Don't tell anyone what a great speaker the F206 is, now everyone is going to want them....

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post #17425 of 18476 Old 03-07-2020, 05:43 PM
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A very favorable review and measurements of Revel's entry level M16 bookshelf speaker:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.11884/

Although obviously in a different league, Amir at some point mentions being impressed with how well they faired when being subjectively compared to his Salon 2's.

He has a pair of F35 towers that I assume will be tested very soon; very interested to see his results as I have recently purchased a pair of F36. I know there are Harman spins available for these speakers but still interesting to see things verified by an independent 3rd party. What an amazing resource this is going to be for the community!
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post #17426 of 18476 Old 03-08-2020, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Karl Maga View Post
I made it about half way through your post when it became clear that you assign cognitive error as the basis for any opinion contrary to yours.
Bear can be a bit firm in his views but I would think in the Revel thread of all places, Science would hold more weight than random biased opinions. I'm not aware of a single study showing a difference between amps that are operating within their limits and I also don't think I've ever seen an amp or receiver measure anything but ruler flat.

I've used Emotiva amps for awhile but recently tried out a Yamaha receiver because it was pretty cheap at Costco, using the same settings I couldn't really tell any difference but I also compared in-room measurements, you can see very minor differences most likely due to slightly different mic positions. The interesting thing to me is the Yamaha isn't supposed to be able to handle 4 ohm loads and these speakers are LS50's, which dip down to 3.2 ohms, so this is an example where you would expect to see a difference if there would ever be one.
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post #17427 of 18476 Old 03-08-2020, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
I use F206s as my surround L/Rs with Studio2s up front and I am not motivated to change them.
What center speaker are you using?

Chris
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post #17428 of 18476 Old 03-08-2020, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
Bear can be a bit firm in his views but I would think in the Revel thread of all places, Science would hold more weight than random biased opinions. I'm not aware of a single study showing a difference between amps that are operating within their limits and I also don't think I've ever seen an amp or receiver measure anything but ruler flat.

I've used Emotiva amps for awhile but recently tried out a Yamaha receiver because it was pretty cheap at Costco, using the same settings I couldn't really tell any difference but I also compared in-room measurements, you can see very minor differences most likely due to slightly different mic positions. The interesting thing to me is the Yamaha isn't supposed to be able to handle 4 ohm loads and these speakers are LS50's, which dip down to 3.2 ohms, so this is an example where you would expect to see a difference if there would ever be one.
Revel science shows that they beat KEF in measurements. Why do you use KEF.

Amps can be measured. I am unaware of measurements showing how processors differ/do not differ in AVR's

Comparing my Marantz SR8012 to my Lexicon RV9:
2 channel music - Marantz lacks separation and definition of instruments. More like a glob of instruments centered between LR speakers. Using Lexicon ,instruments can be identified in different locations and sounds more natural. Rather than having 1 big centered mix the sounds vary to left or right.
HT - Center dialog is clearer with RV9. Much more immersive rather than just sounding like a few sounds are coming from a given speaker.
Don't know how that can be measured.
DIRAC is definitely superior to XT32 IMO. Doesn't sound like a blanket was placed over the speaker.
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post #17429 of 18476 Old 03-08-2020, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Revel science shows that they beat KEF in measurements. Why do you use KEF.

Amps can be measured. I am unaware of measurements showing how processors differ/do not differ in AVR's

Comparing my Marantz SR8012 to my Lexicon RV9:
2 channel music - Marantz lacks separation and definition of instruments. More like a glob of instruments centered between LR speakers. Using Lexicon ,instruments can be identified in different locations and sounds more natural. Rather than having 1 big centered mix the sounds vary to left or right.
HT - Center dialog is clearer with RV9. Much more immersive rather than just sounding like a few sounds are coming from a given speaker.
Don't know how that can be measured.
DIRAC is definitely superior to XT32 IMO. Doesn't sound like a blanket was placed over the speaker.
Have you seen the KEF Reference measurements? I don't think you can say one brand beats another unanimously, but either way no one is disputing that speakers sound very different. Also, Dirac live compared to Audyssey may be a big difference but that is actually EQ'ing the sound so of course you would expect a difference, that also has nothing to do with the amps. Processors can have a large impact on the sound as you noted but it's almost entirely due to the way they EQ the speakers, I don't think anyone has ever disputed that claim.
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post #17430 of 18476 Old 03-08-2020, 09:58 AM
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It seems like if you want to compare the sound of amps/AVRs, then it needs to be done in their pure direct mode (or whatever they call it). Having any processing makes the actual amp comparison impossible. That said, the different sound of processing is a good reason to choose one brand over another.
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