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post #18361 of 18424 Old 06-29-2020, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
The Benchmark AHB2 is 2X the cost but had very little out of band noise, runs cool, weighs 12.5 lbs, etc. Measurements from Stereophile: https://www.stereophile.com/content/...r-measurements Measurements from ASR: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...ahb2-amp.7628/ Here are the SINAD numbers at 1 watt: Mark Levinson 536: -83 dB Hypex NC1200: -97 dB Benchmark AHB2: -106 dB - Rich
Yep, the Benchmark AHB2 is clearly a great measuring amp. But let's take it a step further: I point you to the Purifi 1ET400A (Bruno Putzeys latest and greatest design), whose SINAD almost matches the AHB2 and whose IMD beats the Benchmark AHB2. Even though the Benchmark AHB2 is arguably better in some ways, it has only half the power the Purifi module delivers, and you can get a complete stereo Purifi amplifier for around $1500 or so. You'd have to buy one AHB2 per channel running in bridged mode as monoblocks to match that.

P.S. Which it looks like you've done If you have them, I doubt any of these will get you perceptibly better sound quality. But for new buyers like me, the Purifi (and Hypex) modules are very appealing.
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post #18362 of 18424 Old 06-29-2020, 03:48 PM
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Figured someone might be interested in seeing the in room extension I get from my Revel F36 towers. Disclaimer: I couldn't care less about whether they extend much below 40 Hz as I cross at 80 or higher to subs, so I'm definitely not fighting to prove anything. However, since I had my gear out anyways when setting up my subs, I want ahead and did some full range sweeps in my 2525 ft^3 room...around 16.5 x 17 x 9 with two large 5' openings to other rooms, an open stairwell, and a normal size doorway to a third room:

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post #18363 of 18424 Old 06-29-2020, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
Yep, the Benchmark AHB2 is clearly a great measuring amp. But let's take it a step further: I point you to the Purifi 1ET400A (Bruno Putzeys latest and greatest design), whose SINAD almost matches the AHB2 and whose IMD beats the Benchmark AHB2. Even though the Benchmark AHB2 is arguably better in some ways, it has only half the power the Purifi module delivers, and you can get a complete stereo Purifi amplifier for around $1500 or so. You'd have to buy one AHB2 per channel running in bridged mode as monoblocks to match that.

P.S. Which it looks like you've done If you have them, I doubt any of these will get you perceptibly better sound quality. But for new buyers like me, the Purifi (and Hypex) modules are very appealing.
I have seen measurements where Purifi has less out-of-band noise than Hypex.
The attached Stereophile measurements to show no advantage.

Benchmark has extensive clip and fault meters and bullet-proof protection.
I am a bit concerned about kit-amps.

- Rich
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post #18364 of 18424 Old 06-29-2020, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
On the topic of amplifier power vs speaker, this topic came up about the Salon2's here, where someone calculated that it's unlikely the Salon2's woofers could take more than 400 Watts in bass frequencies without bottoming out. I know a lot of people run them with considerably more power, but if what this poster says is true, anything beyond 400 Watts is wasted as it would bottom out the Salon2 woofers. Does anyone know if this is true? I'm trying to figure out what amp power I will need for my Salon2's arriving on Wednesday ( thanks Rex Anderson ).
WOW, congrats on the Salon 2's!!!

I wouldn't rule out Nord's Hypex NC500 based amp. Three channel version is around $1800 shipped if you have a center channel to drive.

If you are crossing them to subs as you should, you don't have to worry about quite so much power IMO. Regardless, the Nord will gives you 445 watts/4R @ .003% distortion, and around 600 @ 0.1%

If you don't need better 2 ohm performance of the 1200, I think the NC500 is the best value going on a 100% sonically transparent amp. Lower distortion/noise etc is cool on paper but will have no real world impact.(Such as Benchmark, other than pride of ownership....which can be worth every penny as well)
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post #18365 of 18424 Old 06-29-2020, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
Yep, the Benchmark AHB2 is clearly a great measuring amp. But let's take it a step further: I point you to the Purifi 1ET400A (Bruno Putzeys latest and greatest design), whose SINAD almost matches the AHB2 and whose IMD beats the Benchmark AHB2. Even though the Benchmark AHB2 is arguably better in some ways, it has only half the power the Purifi module delivers, and you can get a complete stereo Purifi amplifier for around $1500 or so. You'd have to buy one AHB2 per channel running in bridged mode as monoblocks to match that.

P.S. Which it looks like you've done [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] If you have them, I doubt any of these will get you perceptibly better sound quality. But for new buyers like me, the Purifi (and Hypex) modules are very appealing.
I have seen measurements where Purifi has less out-of-band noise than Hypex.
The attached Stereophile measurements to show no advantage.

Benchmark has extensive clip and fault meters and bullet-proof protection.
I am a bit concerned about kit-amps.

- Rich
Why does better than -100db of out band noise matter at all anyway? I’d be concerned if these put any significant energy into the tweeter out of band, but aside from that you won’t hear the difference between -100db vs -110db at 40khz. To be honest you probably won’t even hear it at 1khz 🙂

(But this is a hobby of hyper-optimizers, so I understand if it’s just for the theoretical purity.)

Revel Salon2 | Genelec 8351B | Neumann KH310A | Neumann KH120A | Ascend Sierra Towers & Horizon (RAAL) + 2x Rythmik F18 + 2x Rythmik F12

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post #18366 of 18424 Old 06-29-2020, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
On the topic of amplifier power vs speaker, this topic came up about the Salon2's here, where someone calculated that it's unlikely the Salon2's woofers could take more than 400 Watts in bass frequencies without bottoming out. I know a lot of people run them with considerably more power, but if what this poster says is true, anything beyond 400 Watts is wasted as it would bottom out the Salon2 woofers. Does anyone know if this is true? I'm trying to figure out what amp power I will need for my Salon2's arriving on Wednesday ( thanks Rex Anderson [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] ).
WOW, congrats on the Salon 2's!!!

I wouldn't rule out Nord's Hypex NC500 based amp. Three channel version is around $1800 shipped if you have a center channel to drive.

If you are crossing them to subs as you should, you don't have to worry about quite so much power IMO. Regardless, the Nord will gives you 445 watts/4R @ .003% distortion, and around 600 @ 0.1%

If you don't need better 2 ohm performance of the 1200, I think the NC500 is the best value going on a 100% sonically transparent amp. Lower distortion/noise etc is cool on paper but will have no real world impact.(Such as Benchmark, other than pride of ownership....which can be worth every penny as well)
Thanks! I’m very excited to start listening to them 🙂 They should arrive in a few more days.

For now, I’m sure my existing amp should be okay for normal/reasonable music listening levels and when I cross them with subs. During that time, it’s interesting researching amp options and determining how much power is needed etc. Too bad there isn’t a more authoritative answer on this (even if there are multiple answers based on with vs without subs, music vs home theater use).

Revel Salon2 | Genelec 8351B | Neumann KH310A | Neumann KH120A | Ascend Sierra Towers & Horizon (RAAL) + 2x Rythmik F18 + 2x Rythmik F12

Last edited by echopraxia; 06-29-2020 at 04:54 PM.
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post #18367 of 18424 Old 06-29-2020, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
Thanks! I’m very excited to start listening to them 🙂 They should arrive in a few more days.

For now, I’m sure my existing amp should be okay for normal/reasonable music listening levels and when I cross them with subs. During that time, it’s interesting researching amp options and determining how much power is needed etc. Too bad there isn’t a more authoritative answer on this (even if there are multiple answers based on with vs without subs, music vs home theater use).
The answer probably depends more on listening distance, size of room, volume level you want to achieve etc. I'm always shocked when I run my F208's in stereo full range and see the clip lights flash on my ATI AT4003 (200W/ch, no center running, just the F208's). It is very loud and I don't listen at that level very long, but I want to see what kind of headroom I have.

With some movies, running the front LCR full range, clip lights flash at about the point where I don't want to get any louder. Thus, I could use double the power (3 dB of headroom) running full range. That's with F208s and a C208, listening distance is less than ten feet. Doubt I will need more power when I open the piggy bank and get a pair of JBL HDI 1200P subs.

If I had Salon2's, I'm pretty sure I would want more than 200W ch even if crossed over at 80Hz with subs. It sucks that you need twice as much power to get a 3 dB gain, especially if it is just for headroom.
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post #18368 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 01:13 AM
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Revel Owners Thread

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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
The answer probably depends more on listening distance, size of room, volume level you want to achieve etc. I'm always shocked when I run my F208's in stereo full range and see the clip lights flash on my ATI AT4003 (200W/ch, no center running, just the F208's). It is very loud and I don't listen at that level very long, but I want to see what kind of headroom I have.

With some movies, running the front LCR full range, clip lights flash at about the point where I don't want to get any louder. Thus, I could use double the power (3 dB of headroom) running full range. That's with F208s and a C208, listening distance is less than ten feet. Doubt I will need more power when I open the piggy bank and get a pair of JBL HDI 1200P subs.

If I had Salon2's, I'm pretty sure I would want more than 200W ch even if crossed over at 80Hz with subs. It sucks that you need twice as much power to get a 3 dB gain, especially if it is just for headroom.

Exactly why I was asking about if bi amping would help using unused channels from 7 channel 200w per channel amp for F228be.


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post #18369 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
The answer probably depends more on listening distance, size of room, volume level you want to achieve etc. I'm always shocked when I run my F208's in stereo full range and see the clip lights flash on my ATI AT4003 (200W/ch, no center running, just the F208's). It is very loud and I don't listen at that level very long, but I want to see what kind of headroom I have.

With some movies, running the front LCR full range, clip lights flash at about the point where I don't want to get any louder. Thus, I could use double the power (3 dB of headroom) running full range. That's with F208s and a C208, listening distance is less than ten feet. Doubt I will need more power when I open the piggy bank and get a pair of JBL HDI 1200P subs.

If I had Salon2's, I'm pretty sure I would want more than 200W ch even if crossed over at 80Hz with subs. It sucks that you need twice as much power to get a 3 dB gain, especially if it is just for headroom.
The number of watts isn't the only consideration. @RichB and I are both powering our Salon 2's with Benchmark AHB2 amps that are "only" 100 wpc into 8 ohms and can play them at deafening levels without the clip indicators coming on or the speakers giving any hint of strain. Trust me - I wouldn't want my system to be capable of playing louder than it currently can because it would destroy my hearing. We both previously had ATI AT6000 series amps and have not felt that switching to the Benchmark amps has been a downgrade in any way. Both of our rooms are pretty good sized - mine is about 16'x26' with a vaulted ceiling that slopes up to about 14' high and the room has a large open doorway that goes into the eat in kitchen (my room is the typical "great room" above a 2 car garage that's very common on newer reproduction colonial houses in the northeast). Rich's room is also fairly large.
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post #18370 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 04:34 AM
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WOW, congrats on the Salon 2's!!!

I wouldn't rule out Nord's Hypex NC500 based amp. Three channel version is around $1800 shipped if you have a center channel to drive.

If you are crossing them to subs as you should, you don't have to worry about quite so much power IMO. Regardless, the Nord will gives you 445 watts/4R @ .003% distortion, and around 600 @ 0.1%

If you don't need better 2 ohm performance of the 1200, I think the NC500 is the best value going on a 100% sonically transparent amp. Lower distortion/noise etc is cool on paper but will have no real world impact.(Such as Benchmark, other than pride of ownership....which can be worth every penny as well)


There’s a nord 3-channel in the classifieds. You don’t see them very often, so if anyone is interested:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-a...amplifier.html
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post #18371 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
The answer probably depends more on listening distance, size of room, volume level you want to achieve etc. I'm always shocked when I run my F208's in stereo full range and see the clip lights flash on my ATI AT4003 (200W/ch, no center running, just the F208's). It is very loud and I don't listen at that level very long, but I want to see what kind of headroom I have.

With some movies, running the front LCR full range, clip lights flash at about the point where I don't want to get any louder. Thus, I could use double the power (3 dB of headroom) running full range. That's with F208s and a C208, listening distance is less than ten feet. Doubt I will need more power when I open the piggy bank and get a pair of JBL HDI 1200P subs.

If I had Salon2's, I'm pretty sure I would want more than 200W ch even if crossed over at 80Hz with subs. It sucks that you need twice as much power to get a 3 dB gain, especially if it is just for headroom.
Yeah, I’ve heard several people now cite cases where their otherwise very capable amps clipped (to their surprise) running Revel’s bigger speakers.

I wonder why this is. My guess: All the bigger Revels (F208, F228, Salon2 etc.) have impedances that reach well into the ~3 ohm range broadly throughout the bass frequencies.

None of the ATI amps seem to be officially rated to drive loads below 4 ohms, at least judging by the specs on their website. (If they are, they should make it official and post the specs.) Yet the majority of your power will be going into the bass frequencies, which (for these speakers) will be delivered through 3 ohms impedance.

It seems pretty reasonable then to infer that when the amp clipping indicator flashes, it’s because the amp is struggling to provide enough current at impedances the amp isn’t officially rated for. I’m sure they have some extra current headroom, but since they’re not officially rated for (or measured at) these impedances, we simply have no idea how well it behaves there under high load.

I’m sure ATI reps would cite happy customers using their amps to power Salon2’s etc., but if they really want to back their products being used to power 3 ohm speakers then they should stand by it and officially rate it as such, along with specifying max power rating at 2 ohms (or at least 3 ohms).

Even the extremely expensive Mark Levinson amps (amps that cost more than Salon2’s), while “stable at 2 ohms” (which is not something ATI even claims officially AFAIK?), seem to be too embarrassed to quote any power numbers at 2 ohms.

In contrast for example, Hypex NC1200 has nothing to be embarrassed about — 1200 watts into 2 ohms. Vastly lower distortion than Mark Levinson too. And can be bought at 5-10% of the ML’s price tag. I’m sure the awesome Harman dealers like those on this thread can do amazing things on price, but I seriously doubt any dealer can approach a 90%-off discount even in the best case

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post
The number of watts isn't the only consideration. @RichB and I are both powering our Salon 2's with Benchmark AHB2 amps that are "only" 100 wpc into 8 ohms and can play them at deafening levels without the clip indicators coming on or the speakers giving any hint of strain. Trust me - I wouldn't want my system to be capable of playing louder than it currently can because it would destroy my hearing. We both previously had ATI AT6000 series amps and have not felt that switching to the Benchmark amps has been a downgrade in any way. Both of our rooms are pretty good sized - mine is about 16'x26' with a vaulted ceiling that slopes up to about 14' high and the room has a large open doorway that goes into the eat in kitchen (my room is the typical "great room" above a 2 car garage that's very common on newer reproduction colonial houses in the northeast). Rich's room is also fairly large.
Maybe the AHB2 is more capable at higher currents, and so might actually be equal or better at low impedance, which as described above is what matters the most for these big Revels. ATI amps deliver more power into 8 ohms, but you’ll probably never come close to using it all, since only the mids/treble of these speakers will be using the >6 ohm capabilities of your amp.

Therefore I’d lean towards the Hypex NC1200 at this point, which is rated for 400 watts into 8 ohms, 700 watts into 4 ohms, and 1200 watts into 2 ohms.

Regarding the NC500, it’s still a consideration. I initially put in an order for a NC502MP unit but canceled it for doubts about power until I’m sure what I want, so I’m taking my time thinking it over. Right now I’m leaning towards something that has excessive headroom on the amp side, since it seems the biggest risk of damaging a speaker is amp clipping. In reality I doubt I will ever push it that hard as I’m not usually a extreme SPL listener, but the peace of mind is nice.

I do worry a bit about protection circuits etc., which someone mentioned above. It’s not clear though that Hypex modules are inferior here at all, since according to the data sheets every Hypex module has a microcontroller with protection logic to shut down if conditions are detected like out of spec voltage, current, and temperature conditions, as well as direct short detection, power supply failure detection, and other safety logic — all built in as standard.

However some units of even further and add additional protection, monitoring, and active cooling logic on top, e.g. Vera Audio. But you do pay a premium for it. I’m not sure it’s necessary vs the default protections built in. Anyway, the research continues
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post #18372 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 06:43 AM
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Regarding the NC500, it’s still a consideration. I initially put in an order for a NC502MP unit but canceled it for doubts about power until I’m sure what I want, so I’m taking my time thinking it over. Right now I’m leaning towards something that has excessive headroom on the amp side, since it seems the biggest risk of damaging a speaker is amp clipping. In reality I doubt I will ever push it that hard as I’m not usually a extreme SPL listener, but the peace of mind is nice.

I do worry a bit about protection circuits etc., which someone mentioned above. It’s not clear though that Hypex modules are inferior here at all, since according to the data sheets every Hypex module has a microcontroller with protection logic to shut down if conditions are detected like out of spec voltage, current, and temperature conditions, as well as direct short detection, power supply failure detection, and other safety logic — all built in as standard.

However some units of even further and add additional protection, monitoring, and active cooling logic on top, e.g. Vera Audio. But you do pay a premium for it. I’m not sure it’s necessary vs the default protections built in. Anyway, the research continues

Aside from the ATI nCore units, are there any Hypex-based amplifiers built by companies based in the US? Generally I have only seen Hypex-based amps from European companies and I have some concern about the logistical challenges if support is needed.
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post #18373 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 06:53 AM
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Aside from the ATI nCore units, are there any Hypex-based amplifiers built by companies based in the US? Generally I have only seen Hypex-based amps from European companies and I have some concern about the logistical challenges if support is needed.
I just picked up this line but not installed any at present.

You can say bridge 6 channels into 320w x 3 and have 2 ch left for surrounds.

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post #18374 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 06:55 AM
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Aside from the ATI nCore units, are there any Hypex-based amplifiers built by companies based in the US? Generally I have only seen Hypex-based amps from European companies and I have some concern about the logistical challenges if support is needed.


https://vacuumtubevalues.com/hypex-ncore-mp-series/

i know he offers a 4 channel box, and iirc was working on a 8 channel one as well

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post #18375 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 07:06 AM
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The number of watts isn't the only consideration. @RichB and I are both powering our Salon 2's with Benchmark AHB2 amps that are "only" 100 wpc into 8 ohms and can play them at deafening levels without the clip indicators coming on or the speakers giving any hint of strain. Trust me - I wouldn't want my system to be capable of playing louder than it currently can because it would destroy my hearing. We both previously had ATI AT6000 series amps and have not felt that switching to the Benchmark amps has been a downgrade in any way. Both of our rooms are pretty good sized - mine is about 16'x26' with a vaulted ceiling that slopes up to about 14' high and the room has a large open doorway that goes into the eat in kitchen (my room is the typical "great room" above a 2 car garage that's very common on newer reproduction colonial houses in the northeast). Rich's room is also fairly large.
My room is 15(W) x 30(L) x 12(H) that is 5400 cu. ft. with large openings on one side and rear.

With music, I can clip the AHB2s with music but this is far too loud for me. Also, I am interested in hear preservation.
With movies, I have pushed them 3 dB higher than comfort, very loud and these amps are not clipping.
My family watched 1917 at cinematic levels. It was very loud and there were no clip indicators and this running the Salon2s full range (with no bass management).

The AHB2s do not limit transients and has excellent FPGA driven protection and clip indicators that illuminate at 0.5% distortion.
Here are posts by John Siau on ASR:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...82#post-384672
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...18#post-180791

Quote:
...The AHB2 power supply is tightly regulated. The transients are not regulated.

If the clip lights on the AHB2 are not turning on, the transients are not being clipped, attenuated, or distorted. The clip lights have a timer that keeps them on for at least 1/4 second so that every clip event is always visible. If the lights are not turning on, the output is following the input exactly. Remember that the AHB2 also has a 200 kHz bandwidth, so it also follows high-frequency transients with precision and with phase accuracy.
All amps should have clip indicators and very few have them per channel nor do they provide any visibility into their implementation.
@gsr and I are driving Salon2s which are essentially a 4 Ohm load, the AHB2 can provide 180 WPC and we can definitively state, we do not clip these amps.
Clean power from an amplifier that acts a pure voltage source into reactive loads has a tremendous impact. This has led me to recalibrate required power in real-world use.

- Rich
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post #18376 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
https://vacuumtubevalues.com/hypex-ncore-mp-series/

i know he offers a 4 channel box, and iirc was working on a 8 channel one as well
Very tempting prices, too. But be careful -- there have been some reports of wiring errors from these budget DIY-style builders, so I'd advise caution and to open up and verify nothing is obviously wrong when buying from any of these DIY-style amp assemblers. That said, there's not too much that can go wrong thanks to the simplicity of Hypex modules, but you'd be surprised.

For example, early VTV units were found to have the XLR inputs wired incorrectly -- an issue they've since remedied. Some of the European companies are arguably just as bad -- for example, AudioScienceReview found the Nord One had the polarity reversed on one of the output channels! :|

The highest quality Hypex and Purify builders that I've found seem to be March Audio (which individually tests every unit thoroughly), and Vera Audio (much more expensive though). In the USA, ATI makes Hypex amps but they swap out the Hypex SMPS for their own linear power supply without any clear justification for why it would improve anything (if it does at all) other than to be able to differentiate their product somehow and justify the price. The other builders of more uncertain quality control (Nord, VTV, Audiophonics, etc.) may be worth it for the bargain price but I would not connect them to expensive speakers without carefully validating no major internal wiring errors first, at least, which you may or may not deem worth the discount.

That said, for what you get ATI is not that overpriced (nothing like e.g. Mark Levinson amps). They do offer a clip indicator light, which most budget Hypex assemblies do not offer (despite there being a simple pinout for it on the Hypex board -- and LEDs are cheap, so I don't really know why so many assembled Hypex products don't connect it).

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post #18377 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
The highest quality Hypex and Purify builders that I've found seem to be March Audio (which individually tests every unit thoroughly), and Vera Audio (much more expensive though). In the USA, ATI makes Hypex amps but they swap out the Hypex SMPS for their own linear power supply without any clear justification for why it would improve anything (if it does at all) other than to be able to differentiate their product somehow and justify the price.

That said, for what you get ATI is not that overpriced (nothing like e.g. Mark Levinson amps). They do offer a clip indicator light, which most budget Hypex assemblies do not offer (despite there being a simple pinout for it on the Hypex board -- and LEDs are cheap, so I don't really know why so many assembled Hypex products don't connect it).

I've considered the ATI nCore series, though the linear power supply does negate a significant portion of the weight savings compared to Class AB. The ATI warranty does offer significant value compared to the small European brands, as I have much confidence ATI will exist for the duration of the 7-year period. Another positive for ATI is that its gain is around 2 dB higher than the standard nCore amps and would work slightly better with my preamp.

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post #18378 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 08:06 AM
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Aside from the ATI nCore units, are there any Hypex-based amplifiers built by companies based in the US? Generally I have only seen Hypex-based amps from European companies and I have some concern about the logistical challenges if support is needed.
Not built in the USA but certainly well supported by a stable company: NAD.
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post #18379 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 09:16 AM
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In case folks do not subscribe to JBL Synthesis thread, this is an interesting observation about mastering reference levels.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post59882050

Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
Do you have a link to the official conversion table? (Not that I don't believe you but I have had trouble finding it myself except for various unconfirmed forum Posts)
https://www.atsc.org/wp-content/uplo...o-loudness.pdf
page 36
It doesn't explicitly says which category is home theatre, as this is document for control rooms, but category one looks like the right one and applicable to HT as well.
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post #18380 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 09:16 AM
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My room is 15(W) x 30(L) x 12(H) that is 5400 sq. feet with large openings on one side and rear.

With music, I can clip the AHB2s with music but this is far too loud for me. Also, I am interested in hear preservation.
With movies, I have pushed them 3 dB higher than comfort, very loud and these amps are not clipping.
My family watched 1917 at cinematic levels. It was very loud and there were no clip indicators and this running the Salon2s full range (with no bass management).

The AHB2s do not limit transients and has excellent FPGA driven protection and clip indicators that illuminate at 0.5% distortion.
Here are posts by John Siau on ASR:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...82#post-384672
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...18#post-180791



All amps should have clip indicators and very few have them per channel nor do they provide any visibility into their implementation.
@gsr and I are driving Salon2s which are essentially a 4 Ohm load, the AHB2 can provide 180 WPC and we can definitively state, we do not clip these amps.
Clean power from an amplifier that acts a pure voltage source into reactive loads has a tremendous impact. This has led me to recalibrate required power in real-world use.

- Rich

Are you and Rex running them as monoblocks or are you using a single in stereo?


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post #18381 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
Are you and Rex running them as monoblocks or are you using a single in stereo?
I don't think Rex has AHB2s, @gsr does.
You will not find deals from dealers on Benchmark products.
The tend to sell list and used, they hold their value.

While it seems to give some folks the vapors, I bi-amp the Salon2s fronts and Voice2 center with dedicated AHB2s.
The Salon2 rears use a single AHB2.

So, I have the option to mono-block the front three channels.

- Rich
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post #18382 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 09:23 AM
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Revel Owners Thread

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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
While it seems to give some folks the vapors, I bi-amp the Salon2s fronts and Voice2 center with dedicated AHB2s.
The Salon2 rears use a single AHB2.

So, I have the option to mono-block the front three channels.

- Rich

Right on. I’ve got a pair of AHB2’s that I use as monoblocks in a stereo pair. And, yeah, it seems to irk some people for some unknown reason.

Glorious overkill, I call it. Carry on.

The power density as a monoblock is very high. 380 watts rms into 8 ohms. Just under 500 into 4 ohms. Rory at Benchmark told me that they were designed to be used as monoblocks from the beginning, and to be able to be severed and used in stereo as well. He also said that the heat sinks are grossly oversized for any type of actual program material; they were designed to accommodate common (torture) testing procedures.

And I do love that they are so thoroughly protected.


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post #18383 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I don't think Rex has AHB2s, @gsr does.
You will not find deals from dealers on Benchmark products.
The tend to sell list and used, they hold their value.

While it seems to give some folks the vapors, I bi-amp the Salon2s fronts and Voice2 center with dedicated AHB2s.
The Salon2 rears use a single AHB2.

So, I have the option to mono-block the front three channels.

- Rich
I find mildly amusing the idea of someone walking into someone's surround sound setup which uses Salon2s as fronts AND rears, then proceeding to balk at the use of AHB2s as mono-blocks, as if that were the most gloriously overkill part of the scene and not the Salon2's everywhere :P
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post #18384 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 10:32 AM
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The 4003 powers my F228Be which are more efficient than the Salons very well. I can listen to it as loud as my ears can handle them with no issues. My buddy has the Salons and the 6002. Same thing - I was over there and he cranked the Salons as loud as our ears can take.

Makes sense based on the power ratings of the 4000 series and the 6000 series and the efficiency of the F228Be and Salons.

Also the other key element is that we both use subs with our speakers so obviously the power requirements are less since I crossover to the sub at 70 Hz and I think he crosses over at 40Hz or something along those lines.
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post #18385 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 10:57 AM
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I’m probably going to go with Hypex NC1200 mono-blocks. I know this will definitely be overkill if I run them crossed with subwoofers, but I also want to experiment with them full range, since the Salon2’s are one of the few speakers actually capable of this.

Having enough power in an amp to meet the speakers’ physical limits to me is preferable (especially since amp clipping can be more harmful to the speaker), as long as this can be achieved for a reasonable relative price — and thanks to Hypex NC1200 I think it can. In reality I’m sure I will rarely use the full power the amp is capable of, but it’s nice knowing that amp clipping will be less of a concern if/when I do push the volume up to reference level for home theater, parties with music, etc.

Realistically, I will likely unload at least the bottom few octaves to subwoofers if only to relieve that stress from the Salon2’s when playing loud, and so I don’t need to worry much about damaging them. But you know how it is — part of the fun of setting up a system like this is a little bit of guilty pleasure in achieving overkill
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post #18386 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 11:12 AM
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For clarity, I use an ATI 4003 for my front LCR which is F208 and a C208. John Schuermann uses an AT6003 for his Salon2's and a Voice2.
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post #18387 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 11:13 AM
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Not built in the USA but certainly well supported by a stable company: NAD.

Is that the M27? I would be interested in it, but it seems to be discontinued. I believe there is a rumor that its successor may be nearing release.
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post #18388 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 11:15 AM
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I've been looking at the NC252MP to power F206s and M106s with an 80Hz crossover to the sub. I think my power requirements are much less than those running Salon2s or F228Bes full range.
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post #18389 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
I find mildly amusing the idea of someone walking into someone's surround sound setup which uses Salon2s as fronts AND rears, then proceeding to balk at the use of AHB2s as mono-blocks, as if that were the most gloriously overkill part of the scene and not the Salon2's everywhere :P
You sound then be further amused by others here that do better than I, with Salon2s Front, Surround and Rears.
I have already watched movies that have made good use of the rears. I wish more would.

We shall soon learn if Dirac Bass Control, which can spread bass amongst full range speakers and subs, lives up to the hype.

The AHB2s have excellent clip indicators and protection, freeing owners from reliance on online amp power calculators and hand-ringing concerns about limiting performance.

I wont post it again, but I have performed sensitivity measurements (2.83 volts) at my listening position and computed the actual power requirements.
Those fall completely inline with some online calculators when properly configured for room gain and also verified by the AHB2 clip indicators.

- Rich
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post #18390 of 18424 Old 06-30-2020, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
The AHB2s have excellent clip indicators and protection, freeing owners from reliance on online amp power calculators and hand-ringing concerns about limiting performance.

I wont post it again, but I have performed sensitivity measurements (2.83 volts) at my listening position and computed the actual power requirements.
Those fall completely inline with some online calculators when properly configured for room gain and also verified by the AHB2 clip indicators.

- Rich
How do they protect the speakers when they start clipping? Do they smooth over or attenuate their waveform somehow to prevent blowing out the tweeters? If so, I definitely can see the appeal. I’m just not sure how that’s possible without introducing some delay, which maybe they do?
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