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post #18391 of 18485 Old 06-30-2020, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
You sound then be further amused by others here that do better than I, with Salon2s Front, Surround and Rears.
I have already watched movies that have made good use of the rears. I wish more would.

We shall soon learn if Dirac Bass Control, which can spread bass amongst full range speakers and subs, lives up to the hype
I have to wonder, with that many 8” woofers from the Salon 2’s (and if Dirac can spread the bass load around), would you even need subs at all? I suppose perhaps for 10-25hz?

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post #18392 of 18485 Old 06-30-2020, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
How do they protect the speakers when they start clipping? Do they smooth over or attenuate their waveform somehow to prevent blowing out the tweeters? If so, I definitely can see the appeal. I’m just not sure how that’s possible without introducing some delay, which maybe they do?

I only understand it loosely, but they use the internal FPGA chip to prevent a hard clip. Rory made the simple statement to me of “no squarewaves will ever exit the amp unless that’s what you put into them”. His implication was that it was a full soft-clip design. That it will just stop getting louder. Are John Siao or Rory here on AVS?


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post #18393 of 18485 Old 06-30-2020, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
How do they protect the speakers when they start clipping? Do they smooth over or attenuate their waveform somehow to prevent blowing out the tweeters? If so, I definitely can see the appeal. I’m just not sure how that’s possible without introducing some delay, which maybe they do?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-4#post-434689

Quote:
... The AHB2 has a THD monitoring circuit that shuts the amplifier down if you overdrive it beyond 1 % THD. THD+N is < 0.0003 % at full output, but if you drive it into clipping, you can reach 1 % and this will trigger the shutdown. The speed of this shutdown is also adjusted according to the severity of the overload. The result is that the tweeters are fully protected from an over-driven AHB2.

Also:

One of the most common failures in an amplifier output stage is a short to one of the power rails. This type of failure will take out a speaker. The AHB2 has a DC detection circuit that will shut down the entire amplifier including the power supplies. A failed AHB2 would not damage speakers.

Best of all, the AHB2 has proven to be absolutely bullet proof in the field.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...18#post-180791
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The amplifier will shut down if repetitive peak currents exceed 29 Amps or if the RMS current exceeds 20.5 Amps for more than a few seconds.

The TEMP lights will flash when peak currents exceed 29 Amps. This is a warning that the protection will kick in if the condition persists. The CLIP lights will flash whenever the amplifier is driven into voltage clipping causing the THD to exceed about 0.5%. If the CLIP and TEMP lights flash together, it indicates that you have simultaneously reached the voltage and current limits of the AHB2. Each channel has its own set of lights and has its own protection monitoring. If protection is triggered, both channel will mute. To protect your tweeters, the distortion monitoring will not allow sustained operation if the amplifier is driven into voltage clipping resulting in a sustained THD exceeding 1%.

The feed-forward correction keeps the AHB2 distortion free when driving very low impedances and difficult phase angles. The protection system in the AHB2 monitors output current, output voltage, distortion, temperature and other critical parameters. The AHB2 can cleanly drive a 1.4-Ohm resistive load to full output voltage on both channels for several seconds without triggering the protection circuits. This is much longer than any musical peaks. Load impedances below 1.4 Ohm (stereo mode) or 2.8 Ohms (mono mode) may flash the TEMP lights indicating that peak currents exceed 29 Amps. If the overload condition is severe enough, and persists for a long enough time, the over-current protection may trip. The amplifier remains distortion free until the protection system shuts it down.
There is no limiting or soft-clipping. I have tested driving the Salon2s full range and I can illuminate the clip indicators but not the temp indicators.
The amps were voltage clipping and not current clipping.

Current limiting causes voltage sag and reduced output.
For some reason, non-linear behavior is not considered "distortion" but, I would argue, that it is.
Most of the discussion around these amps circles around SOTA low noise and distortion but I wonder regulated power supply is part of what makes them great.
There seem to be quite few Salon2 owners have these amps. They are small, light, and are not something most will put on an amp stand, though I found cute ones on Amazon.

I have some great dealers but they don't carry these amps. The margins are not there.

EDIT: There is no delay, all protection and monitoring is performed by an FPGA.

- Rich

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post #18394 of 18485 Old 06-30-2020, 12:53 PM
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Thanks... the AHB2 is clearly an amazingly well designed amp. Those protection features are definitely hugely compelling points in favor of the AHB2, especially when driving speakers this expensive. I would rather go overkill on safety protections than overkill on max power output, if a failure in the amp could end up frying the speakers. Definitely makes the AHB2 more appealing vs just about anything else out there without equal protection ability.
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post #18395 of 18485 Old 06-30-2020, 02:09 PM
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You sound then be further amused by others here that do better than I, with Salon2s Front, Surround and Rears.
Now who would possibly be that crazy???
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post #18396 of 18485 Old 06-30-2020, 02:20 PM
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Now who would possibly be that crazy???

Calling @DonH50 ....
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post #18397 of 18485 Old 06-30-2020, 02:21 PM
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Is that the M27? I would be interested in it, but it seems to be discontinued. I believe there is a rumor that its successor may be nearing release.
M22 is stereo.
M27 is 7 channels.
Impending release of the M28 in 8 channels but this will not be Hypex/nCore.

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post #18398 of 18485 Old 06-30-2020, 09:39 PM
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Revel Owners Thread

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Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
I have to wonder, with that many 8” woofers from the Salon 2’s (and if Dirac can spread the bass load around), would you even need subs at all? I suppose perhaps for 10-25hz?

In theory probably not. In practice nobody offers bass management software evolved enough to properly take advantage of full range mains - ie treat their bass sections as subwoofers and optimize bass management accordingly. Maybe Trinnov, but I have no experience.

Dirac Unison was supposed to but does not exist in a prepro. Dirac has made noises about incorporating this advance into DLBC, so we.’lol see.

Maybe one could DIY such a bass management solution, using a pro DSP such as a QSC Core, BSS BLU, or similar.

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post #18399 of 18485 Old 07-01-2020, 12:50 AM
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M27 a very nice looking amp!


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post #18400 of 18485 Old 07-01-2020, 04:20 PM
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I have a few Salon2's scattered around the room and subwoofers are a great help IME/IMO. Dr. Toole and others agree. Here is a short list of my "why" FWIWFM. - Don

I use subs, and have for decades, for all the usual reasons:

- Very (perhaps extremely) few "large" speakers actually play well below 40 Hz let alone 20 Hz. They distort heavily when presented with large bass signals (which most are -- see Fletcher-Munson) and driving them down low robs headroom for higher frequencies and causes distortion well above the fundamental signal frequency (harmonic and nasty intermodulation). Subs typically enable the mains to operate with much lower distortion.

- Very rare is the room setup such that the best place for stereo imaging and soundfield is the best place for the subs (or deep bass drivers) to counter room modes and such. Having independent subs provides placement options to smooth the in-room response. It is almost impossible to counter a null without subs (typically must move the MLP or change the room's dimensions though there are purpose-built panels that can also work). This is one of the things that led me to subs despite having quite capable mains.

- Powered subs offload the main amplifiers of the need to provide deep bass energy, providing more headroom and cleaner sound from the amplifiers.

- Music (let alone action movies) often contains deep bass content even if it is not real obvious. Kick drums, tympani, organ, sure, but also piano hammer strikes, plucked strings, beat patterns from instruments playing together, etc. May not really notice when they are there but usually obvious when they are taken away. Having subs fill in the bottom octave or three can make a difference.

- Purpose-built subs can provide high output cleanly at relatively low cost. The amplifiers and drivers need only cover a fairly limited frequency range so have fewer constraints upon them than woofers in a full-range system.

I do prefer main speakers with fairly deep bass and always have. Crossovers are not brick walls so a fair amount of energy still comes from the mains an octave below the crossover frequency. Higher-order crossovers allow you to reduce the overlap, but I still like having the capability. I have never really understood the idea of running "passive" bi-amping as implemented by an AVR (sending full-range signals to multiple channels and letting the speaker's crossovers separate frequency bands -- wastes amplifier headroom and seems to me of little benefit). Nor do I agree with the "plus" setting putting subs and mains in parallel; again, my idea has always been to isolate the two for the reasons above.

My first sub was a DIY design using an Infinity IRS woofer with my own control box to provide the crossover and a servo circuit using the second voice coil of the woofer. I had a Hafler DH-220 around so also incorporated a circuit to bridge it for use as a subwoofer amp. It worked well and the -3 dB point was ~16 Hz. I now run four small (F12) Rythmik subs using a similar (but updated) servo design with my Revel Salon2's and am happy with the result.

FWIWFM/IME/IMO/my 0.000001 cent (microcent) - Don
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post #18401 of 18485 Old 07-01-2020, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
I have to wonder, with that many 8” woofers from the Salon 2’s (and if Dirac can spread the bass load around), would you even need subs at all? I suppose perhaps for 10-25hz?
Yes, subs allow you to place them where they will sound the best. Woofers in towers are trapped where you place the speakers for imaging and soundstage etc. Usually not the best place for optimal sound quality in lower frequencies. Subs aren't about more bass for speakers that can't play low enough, its for better bass regardless how low a speaker attempts to play.
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post #18402 of 18485 Old 07-02-2020, 07:23 AM
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Just a quick post to say how much I'm loving the f226be's. I've always loved listening to music, but before getting my Revels, I usually listened on my phone, laptop, in my car, and on the rare occasion, in my bedroom on my Sonos system. Now that I have a Revel system in my living room, I'd say my listening is 50/50 music/HT. I'll just sit on my couch now to listen to music rather than putting on the TV, which is something I never used to do. I am so enamored by the soundstage and clarity for the f226be's.


I signed up for a 3-month trial of the Amazon Unlimited plan (I have Prime, but the selection can be limited), which is about to end and now I'm trying Spotify free for 3 months. After that, I'll try Apple Music and decide which service I like best. I use the Play-Fi app through my Anthem, although with Spotify, you can stream to the receiver directly rather than through the Play-Fi app - you just open the Spotify app on your phone, start playing music, and tap the icon for output device, select your receiver, and the receiver will automatically change inputs to play Spotify.


I'm curious to see if there will be a noticeable improvement once I get and hang my GIK Acoustics panels. The next step would be to upgrade to separates (and then I'll have to decide whether to stick with Anthem or switch to Dirac).


Hmm, this started out as "I love the f226be" and ended with "I'm going to upgrade my system."
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post #18403 of 18485 Old 07-02-2020, 07:22 PM
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^This hobby is funny that way. It's like there's a sonic tipping where knowing what's possible makes putting $$$$ into upgrades look like the obvious right thing to do. If you get a moment, it would be great to get your impressions of that C426be later this month.


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post #18404 of 18485 Old 07-03-2020, 02:10 AM
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I bought the Revel M16's for $900 but then I saw I could get the M105's for almost the same price used. Seems like it's worth it but just wanted to see what you guys thought.

Last edited by carlcarl9; 07-03-2020 at 03:00 AM.
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post #18405 of 18485 Old 07-03-2020, 06:00 AM
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I bought the Revel M16's for $900 but then I saw I could get the M105's for almost the same price used. Seems like it's worth it but just wanted to see what you guys thought.
Have you considered b-stock speakers? They're functionally perfect with some minor blemish in the finish... if you can find it. Ask Rex Anderson for a price.
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post #18406 of 18485 Old 07-03-2020, 06:29 AM
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I bought the Revel M16's for $900 but then I saw I could get the M105's for almost the same price used. Seems like it's worth it but just wanted to see what you guys thought.
What's your use case? Application 2-channel, home theater, etc), volume needs, listening distance, using subs or not, etc?
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post #18407 of 18485 Old 07-03-2020, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by carlcarl9 View Post
I bought the Revel M16's for $900 but then I saw I could get the M105's for almost the same price used. Seems like it's worth it but just wanted to see what you guys thought.

I would skip the M105 and go for the M106, if possible. M106s seem to be heavily discounted at times and my new M106s were a no-brainer for the price I got them (far less than the MSRP of the M105).
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post #18408 of 18485 Old 07-03-2020, 10:00 AM
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I bought the Revel M16's but then I saw I could get the M105's for almost the same price used. Seems like it's worth it but just wanted to see what you guys thought.

Kevin Voecks recommends the M106s over the M105's and says they can play louder. I have read reviews that confirm that. The M16 is a great speaker for the price. If you can find M106's for a good deal, I would consider the upgrade if it fits in your budget.
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post #18409 of 18485 Old 07-03-2020, 10:09 AM
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Green looks normal, red does not. I wonder if you got a speaker with a driver wired incorrectly.

Are you sure the shorting straps are connected well? Have you tried using both set of inputs (one or the other) on the bad speaker? Are you measuring one speaker at a time? Are you using room correction? If so, turn it off and measure both speakers, one at a time.

If you find you still have the same issue, you should talk to your dealer, they are under warranty.
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Probably best to get approval from Revel so they know the issue. If you damage anything in the process, it would be best to have been upfront with them and have their approval to attempt the repair yourself.
Revel wants TWO speakers back! Why?

Update on Revel response to F228Be possible reversed tweeter: Essentially “Don’t touch anything; you may void the warranty, etc.” They have now offered to send me TWO new speakers if I send back the ones that I have. Why TWO? “You might not be happy with the ‘brightness match’ if only one speaker is replaced.”

Does this sound plausible for this speaker? Sending back two is considerably more effort than just one. Could they have concerns about the whole group of speakers manufactured at about this time?

Advice? Thanks.
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post #18410 of 18485 Old 07-03-2020, 10:55 AM
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Revel wants TWO speakers back! Why?

Update on Revel response to F228Be possible reversed tweeter: Essentially “Don’t touch anything; you may void the warranty, etc.” They have now offered to send me TWO new speakers if I send back the ones that I have. Why TWO? “You might not be happy with the ‘brightness match’ if only one speaker is replaced.”

Does this sound plausible for this speaker? Sending back two is considerably more effort than just one. Could they have concerns about the whole group of speakers manufactured at about this time? Advice? Thanks.

Different age and manufacturing date of the ones you have vs the new ones you will get. Look at the serial numbers on the pair you have, they are probably fairly close. Go to the extra effort to pack them both up to return them and be happy you are getting a brand new matched pair of speakers. I think that's excellent customer service.
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post #18411 of 18485 Old 07-03-2020, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by svalesgp View Post
Revel wants TWO speakers back! Why?



Update on Revel response to F228Be possible reversed tweeter: Essentially “Don’t touch anything; you may void the warranty, etc.” They have now offered to send me TWO new speakers if I send back the ones that I have. Why TWO? “You might not be happy with the ‘brightness match’ if only one speaker is replaced.”



Does this sound plausible for this speaker? Sending back two is considerably more effort than just one. Could they have concerns about the whole group of speakers manufactured at about this time?



Advice? Thanks.
Revel is known to pair match their speakers (at least some models) which is great

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I thought Revel matched all their speakers to a reference speaker.
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Question for Salon2 owners: How do you connect your speaker wire — just old fashioned raw wire, or any particular connectors? My banana plugs work fine but when connected that way, I can’t close the door on the rear panel. Just wondering what people generally do here.

So far I am really loving these incredible speakers! They are amazing in every way. So many things I could rave about, but for example as a big appreciator of wide dispersion — I can sit directly in the middle of these (as an experiment) with each speaker 4 feet or so to each side of me — almost 90 degrees off axis — and the sound is almost completely unchanged, even with a crystal clear phantom imaging in front of me. And more practically speaking, you can walk all around the room and the sound is so amazingly consistently good everywhere.

The closest speaker to this experience I have are my Ascend RAAL speakers, whose wide treble dispersion had a similar effect I’ve been unable to match until now. These match it and exceed it, because now it’s clear when comparing that while the RAAL maintain strong response off axis, the crossover frequencies are attenuated this far off axis whereas with the Salon2’s it’s almost perfectly unchanged. And the effect of this in-room is a gloriously spacious soundstage that is also very clean, and almost as precise imaging as my Genelec 8251B near field (but not quite, as you’d expect when comparing far listening vs near field).
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I thought Revel matched all their speakers to a reference speaker.
Colours may vary

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post #18415 of 18485 Old 07-03-2020, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Lsdec2 View Post
I thought Revel matched all their speakers to a reference speaker.

I believe that is just the Salon2 and they hand tune the crossover components. The other speakers should have very close tolerances, but given the situation svalesgp had, I think it's great they want them both back and are willing to give him a new pair that should have serial numbers that are close.
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post #18416 of 18485 Old 07-03-2020, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
Question for Salon2 owners: How do you connect your speaker wire — just old fashioned raw wire, or any particular connectors? My banana plugs work fine but when connected that way, I can’t close the door on the rear panel. Just wondering what people generally do here.
I replaced the straight bananas with 90deg bananas:
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post #18417 of 18485 Old 07-03-2020, 01:47 PM
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What's your use case? Application 2-channel, home theater, etc), volume needs, listening distance, using subs or not, etc?
2 channel. No subs. No clue on volume and close to my face as possible.

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I would skip the M105 and go for the M106, if possible. M106s seem to be heavily discounted at times and my new M106s were a no-brainer for the price I got them (far less than the MSRP of the M105).
Where did you get it that cheap?
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post #18418 of 18485 Old 07-03-2020, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
Question for Salon2 owners: How do you connect your speaker wire — just old fashioned raw wire, or any particular connectors? My banana plugs work fine but when connected that way, I can’t close the door on the rear panel. Just wondering what people generally do here.
I removed the doors. It requires a bit of force to bend them enough to pop out, but it's not too bad. When you remove them, just be careful because there are tiny nylon (or similar) washers on the pivot points that can go flying...
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post #18419 of 18485 Old 07-03-2020, 07:51 PM
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The next step would be to upgrade to separates (and then I'll have to decide whether to stick with Anthem or switch to Dirac).
With the AVR you are using, if you go separates, I think you'll be lucky to better the measured performance. If you do get lucky, or go with equipment that objectively measures better on paper, I think you will end up with expensive gear that measures better on paper, but with no real world audible improvement. From what I've seen, a lot of expensive audiophile separates are just that, expensive, but without any objective benefit. And just as likely to degrade performance.

There comes a point at which .003% distortion, or whatever it might be, actually can't be detected while listening to music or watching movies on speakers with orders of magnitude higher distortion, or a noise floor that is orders of magnitude higher.

Chasing numbers on paper does have its own benefits....i.e maybe pride of ownership of a well engineered product, but at some point it just doesn't yield audible benefits anymore.

On a side note, now that you've got some time under your belt with the F18's, pretty happy with them? Still considering adding a third?
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post #18420 of 18485 Old 07-03-2020, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
With the AVR you are using, if you go separates, I think you'll be lucky to better the measured performance. If you do get lucky, or go with equipment that objectively measures better on paper, I think you will end up with expensive gear that measures better on paper, but with no real world audible improvement. From what I've seen, a lot of expensive audiophile separates are just that, expensive, but without any objective benefit...


On a side note, now that you've got some time under your belt with the F18's, pretty happy with them? Still considering adding a third?

I have to say that the MRX 1120 has far exceeded my expectations. I was concerned because it's 5 years old (I know, newer doesn't mean better), doesn't have eARC or HDMI 2.1 (which doesn't even matter because I don't use my TV as a source), and puts out only 60 watts to the Atmos speakers. Anthem set my c763l's at +12db, the max, which means that they're not even benefiting from the +3.5db room gain. When I get a 77" OLED, I'll be moving the 65" LCD to my den where I have an 11-year-old Integra 40.1, which doesn't support 4k. At that point, I could either keep both receivers or move the Anthem to the den and get something better (or the same) in the living room.


I don't think it's worth getting a third F18. I am fully satisfied with the ULF and mid-bass response. I was able to use REW and a miniDSP to get a fairly nice curve where my max SPLs are at 16hz and on paper there's only one very small dip of about 3db from 60-100hz, but I haven't run a full sweep with the towers to see the combined response. I'm waiting to put up the acoustic panels before I spend more time fine tuning. I played a hearing test that someone posted either in here or in the Rythmik thread and I heard no audible dip. So even though a third sub would result in a better measurement on paper, I'm not so sure the audible benefit is worth the time or money.
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5.2.4 system: Anthem MRX1120 | Revel f226be L/R | c426be center (**ETA for delivery is 7/20**) | f206 surrounds | c763l (Atmos front and back) | dual Rythmik F18 subwoofers | miniDSP 2x4HD | Apple TV 4K | Panasonic UB820 | Sony XBR65x950g (will upgrade to 77" OLED) | Panamax M5400-PM | Salamander Oslo 237 AV cabinet
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