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#1 · (Edited)
Since there doesn't seem to be a thread dedicated to this fine speaker line, and I am now a Revel F-52 owner I thought it would be a good idea to start an owner's thread for these speakers.


As an introduction Revel was the speaker line of the former Madrigal company which was acquired by the Harman Specialty Group, the high end division of Harman International.


The Revel line is most heavily influenced by two well - known designers, Dr. Floyd Toole who earned his reputation at Canada's NRC, where much of the science of modern speaker design was laid out (and where many well-known Canadian speaker companies got their start) and by Kevin Voecks who has won respect for designs at Mirage and Snell prior to coming to Revel.


The F-52 I own is the latest generation of the high end model in the Performa line; the middle range betwen the Revel Concertas and Ultimas.


June 2, 2011. Since I wrote this first post in 2011 I have added more Revel models to my collection. These are:


A pair of I30's purchased used. I currently have these in storage however I recently have decided to install these in my kitchen.


A pair of M-22's which form my bedroom stereo system. These in conjunction with a Squeezebox server form a truly wonderful alarm clock.


A pair of Revel Ultima Studio 2's which are replacing the F-52's I have had for 5 years now.


Edit Jan 10 2012: I have sold my Performa 52's, and there is now a new generation - the Performa 3's. See this

Edit April 14 2022: I have purchased a Ultima2 Voice2 to complement my Studios and replace my F52 center. It seems to be a significant upgrade.
 
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#13,822 · (Edited)
@DonH50, I think the poster you were responding to with the "^^^" deleted several posts, and now it looks like you are saying Dr. Toole made misleading statements, which (because a post was deleted) does not appear to have been your intent.

It was my post. I responded to "it is absolutely mono in LPs" from Floyd Toole's post with what was supposed to be two quotes, one each from Barry Diament and Doug Sclar stating that isn't always true and that Sclar never sums to mono for LPs. I captured part of a third post from Barry Diament that really didn't match the context of my point. I attempted to edit the extra text out and when I went to save, AVS hung up because my internet went down (again). I looked at the post on my phone and I had taken out all of the quotes so instead of attempting to put the two back in from my phone, which I can't so I just deleted the post. Posting from the phone is troublesome enough, but editing is almost impossible for me. Maybe after I get cataract fixed I'll be able to do it again.

Spectrum is coming out to trench a new cable back to the box because what I had was filling with water causing intermittent outages. They were here Monday to temporarily fix it and the new replacement cable is just laying on the ground. Well, the problem is still happening so they need to hold off on digging up my yard until they figure out what's really going on.
 
#13,823 · (Edited)
@DonH50, I think the poster you were responding to with the "^^^" deleted several posts, and now it looks like you are saying Dr. Toole made misleading statements, which (because a post was deleted) does not appear to have been your intent.
Thanks, definitely not, deleted my post.

It was my post. I responded to "it is absolutely mono in LPs" from Floyd Toole's post with what was supposed to be two quotes, one each from Barry Diament and Doug Sclar stating that isn't always true and that Sclar never sums to mono for LPs. I captured part of a third post from Barry Diament that really didn't match the context of my point. I attempted to edit the extra text out and when I went to save, AVS hung up because my internet went down (again). I looked at the post on my phone and I had taken out all of the quotes so instead of attempting to put the two back in from my phone, which I can't so I just deleted the post. Posting from the phone is troublesome enough, but editing is almost impossible for me. Maybe after I get cataract fixed I'll be able to do it again.

Spectrum is coming out to trench a new cable back to the box because what I had was filling with water causing intermittent outages. They were here Monday to temporarily fix it and the new replacement cable is just laying on the ground. Well, the problem is still happening so they need to hold off on digging up my yard until they figure out what's really going on.
Hi Scott,

I am sorry, I should not have been so terse. Getting gob-smacked by Life and only had 3 hours' sleep (3h 8 m according to my FitBit, new toy from my wife) but should not have responded so harshly. There are many things upon which we agree, a few upon which we just fundamentally differ, and that's OK.

A lot of the directional info we hear is actually higher in frequency as numerous tests reported in the AES and other places have shown. The directionality of bass at subwoofer frequencies is essentially nil though there is some evidence the initial subsonic pressure waves from e.g. a kick drum can be located. I think your quotes were folk largely targeting frequencies above the deepest bass (sub) range but I was never any good at mind-reading (ask my wife) so do not know the authors' intents. As for mono bass on LPs, that is mostly a limitation of the medium and recording technique, but is not my area of expertise so I'll defer to others.

Onwards - Don

Edit: We live in a rural'ish area and Comcast is forever fiddling with our cable drop. First they used the wrong cable (too small), then replaced it with larger cable but not hardline, then finally with hardline after figuring out the loss was way too high. That held for several years until a gopher managed to chew through the downdrop at the pole (about 100 yards away) taking out several feeds. That was when we found there was hardline to our house but the drop down the pole was not. :rolleyes: Fixed, fingers crossed, been working for a few months, though we get outages about once a month just because. Last time somebody ran into a power pole on a road a mile or so away that also had the main cable line. Took out cable and power, a two-fer, joy.
 
#13,824 ·
This makes sense and is basically what I do but one detail I haven't seen addressed is the frequencies above the summed bass and below your room's schraeder frequency. I believe bass is summed under about 120Hz so it makes sense when correcting up to 120Hz to measure in stereo and use that for your parametric EQ filter, but between 120-200Hz or so, would I still use a stereo measurement or measure individually and apply EQ using the individual measurements?
Aha! You have found the weak spot - above low bass but not above the transition frequency. Incidentally, the Schroeder frequency, according to its creator, Manfred Schroeder, applies to large performance venues, not small rooms - the principle reason has to do with the lack of a genuinely reverberant/difffuse sound field in small dead rooms). The calculated frequency is close, but wrong. I elaborate in Section 6.2 in my book, with examples.

So, back to the topic of interest - measurements - as long as there are active somewhat orderly standing waves in a room it matters greatly whether there are single or multiple sources of sound. This is the topic of Chapter 8 and is well illustrated in Figure 8.13. So, it matters greatly how recordings are made and there are no rules - sometimes bass can be directed to a single channel, sometimes to multiple channels. Because consumer playback systems tend to be lacking in bass, it has become good practice to send bass to both channels, but obviously, this is not always done. If stereo bass is attempted, the recording studio/venue low-frequency modes will add unpredictable differences between stereo mics.

In LPs mono bass prevents vertical stylus movement, which modulates the tracking force, detrimentally affecting tracking capability, and with sufficient bass energy can throw the stylus out of the groove. Not doing this is possible only in recordings with little bass, or by those willing to risk mistracking and distortion.

In the playback situation, to be comprehensive one would need to measure all possible combinations of single and multiple loudspeakers. There would be several answers. The dominant acoustical effects in this frequency range are likely to be associated with boundary effects discussed in Chapter 9. This, of course, is a good argument for bass management and subwoofers but, as you noted, what happens for the next octave? I do not see a single technical answer, but experience tells us that human listeners seem to accommodate these variations as part of adapting to rooms.
 
#13,825 · (Edited)
There is a premise that mains and subs should have ~80Hz 'crossover' to employ multiple subs. That leaves couple octaves around transition frequency, that could be better optimized.

There are possible solutions with clever signal routing, sadly not done in modestly priced consumer gear.
What could be done is to employ 'main+LFE' mode in commodity receivers. This brings couple problems, but if done with the right gear (speakers that cannot be overdriven with full-range signal, response falls slightly below ~150Hz, etc), multiple subs can be blended in just below the rooms transition frequency. Of-course only subs near the main speakers play that high, otherwise sub localization begins to be problematic. Optimizing every possible scenario (R+L; C; R+L+C; LFE signal only...) is tedious, but can be done in software (MSO).
In the 90s Earl Geddes used to be big proponent of blending in multiple subs to the rooms transition frequency.
 
#13,826 ·
Thanks, definitely not, deleted my post.



Hi Scott,

I am sorry, I should not have been so terse. Getting gob-smacked by Life and only had 3 hours' sleep (3h 8 m according to my FitBit, new toy from my wife) but should not have responded so harshly. There are many things upon which we agree, a few upon which we just fundamentally differ, and that's OK.

A lot of the directional info we hear is actually higher in frequency as numerous tests reported in the AES and other places have shown. The directionality of bass at subwoofer frequencies is essentially nil though there is some evidence the initial subsonic pressure waves from e.g. a kick drum can be located. I think your quotes were folk largely targeting frequencies above the deepest bass (sub) range but I was never any good at mind-reading (ask my wife) so do not know the authors' intents. As for mono bass on LPs, that is mostly a limitation of the medium and recording technique, but is not my area of expertise so I'll defer to others.

Onwards - Don

Edit: We live in a rural'ish area and Comcast is forever fiddling with our cable drop. First they used the wrong cable (too small), then replaced it with larger cable but not hardline, then finally with hardline after figuring out the loss was way too high. That held for several years until a gopher managed to chew through the downdrop at the pole (about 100 yards away) taking out several feeds. That was when we found there was hardline to our house but the drop down the pole was not. :rolleyes: Fixed, fingers crossed, been working for a few months, though we get outages about once a month just because. Last time somebody ran into a power pole on a road a mile or so away that also had the main cable line. Took out cable and power, a two-fer, joy.

My dispute was only this comment "it is absolutely mono in LPs" as that's not quite absolutely correct. In re your 2nd paragraph above, I mostly agree.

"I think your quotes were folk largely targeting frequencies"

My quote from Doug Sklar was that he didn't sum bass for vinyl period and Barry Diament stated that it most often was summed, but didn't need to be.

As far as my cable, they were just here marking where the other utilities were buried so I imagine I'm going get my yard cut up shortly. Aside from the sporadic outages such as last night, I've had cable go out at 10:30 in the morning, every morning for quite a few months. I'm on a bunch of forums and most don't do a very good job of saving what you've already typed when either AVS goes crazy or my cable goes down. So when I tried to fix the post from my phone, I couldn't figure out how to do it so I just deleted it, leaving you hanging. I had similar issues the couple of days that we tried to 'live blog' from AXPONA. In summary, I'm getting old and a bit foggy.
 
#13,829 · (Edited)
#13,830 ·
If you want a tube amp that will compete with the ARC for far less money check out the Rogue m180 darks or the Rogue Apollo darks, simply outstanding sounding with Revels.
I doubt that I'm going to do anything further. Next lifetime.

Besides, tube amps aren't necessarily the best option for ESLs. If I were to do something, and that something was tubes, I'd take a good look at VAC
 
#13,831 ·
Anyone has tried Stillpoints under Revel speakers?

http://www.stillpoints.us/index.php/product/ultra/96-ultra-ss#!ultraSS_group

I have the F228Be

Thanks

Isolation devices like that allow the cabinet to vibrate more, typically the opposite of what you want. Ideally the cabinet would be perfectly still and only the drivers radiate (move, vibrate). To that end spikes to the floor should provide the tightest coupling and best sound from the speakers. I personally do not notice much difference spiked or not with my Salon2's but those are very heavy beasts and sitting on (crushing) carpet over a concrete floor. Rex and others have noticed subtle differences spiked and unspiked. Me, I notice subtle differences depending upon mood, time of day, and whether I drank water or Pepsi before listening, so am not a reliable witness. :)

If you want to isolate the speakers from the floor, perhaps to keep the floor from vibrating, then Stillpoints may help (at the cost of more cabinet vibration). But so might hockey pucks or regular old furniture feet of some sort.

IME/IMO - Don
 
#13,832 ·
My dispute was only this comment "it is absolutely mono in LPs" as that's not quite absolutely correct. In re your 2nd paragraph above, I mostly agree.

"I think your quotes were folk largely targeting frequencies"

My quote from Doug Sklar was that he didn't sum bass for vinyl period and Barry Diament stated that it most often was summed, but didn't need to be.

As far as my cable, they were just here marking where the other utilities were buried so I imagine I'm going get my yard cut up shortly. Aside from the sporadic outages such as last night, I've had cable go out at 10:30 in the morning, every morning for quite a few months. I'm on a bunch of forums and most don't do a very good job of saving what you've already typed when either AVS goes crazy or my cable goes down. So when I tried to fix the post from my phone, I couldn't figure out how to do it so I just deleted it, leaving you hanging. I had similar issues the couple of days that we tried to 'live blog' from AXPONA. In summary, I'm getting old and a bit foggy.
No worries. Good luck with the cable company! I imagine many of us have various horror stories...
 
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#13,833 ·
But so might hockey pucks or regular old furniture feet of some sort. Don

I almost suggested hockey pucks. We used them with with big PA subs on concert floors. Not elegant, but they worked.
 
#13,835 ·
Isolation devices like that allow the cabinet to vibrate more, typically the opposite of what you want. Ideally the cabinet would be perfectly still and only the drivers radiate (move, vibrate). To that end spikes to the floor should provide the tightest coupling and best sound from the speakers. I personally do not notice much difference spiked or not with my Salon2's but those are very heavy beasts and sitting on (crushing) carpet over a concrete floor. Rex and others have noticed subtle differences spiked and unspiked. Me, I notice subtle differences depending upon mood, time of day, and whether I drank water or Pepsi before listening, so am not a reliable witness. :)

If you want to isolate the speakers from the floor, perhaps to keep the floor from vibrating, then Stillpoints may help (at the cost of more cabinet vibration). But so might hockey pucks or regular old furniture feet of some sort.

IME/IMO - Don
Actually Stillpoints (and other similar products) recommends starting with speakers first. From the best review on stillpoints:

-------

But even once you’ve ensured the correct supporting rack, that’s not your first port of call. That’s the speakers. Remember, we are talking about excess mechanical energy, and where in the system do you find the highest levels of that? In the speaker cabinets! So the first components you support on Stillpoints should be your speakers, because the greatest problem offers the greatest opportunity for a solution, because the speakers are the window through which you view the rest of the system. So, if you want to hear what’s happening further down the road, you’d better make sure your speakers aren’t obscuring the view.

--------

Source:

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/stillpoints.htm
 
#13,838 ·
Of course. It get it. We all want to make money. But I was pointing out that they say start with speakers first. Meaning that according to them, speakers are the first element in the chain to benefit

I recommend you start with nothing and let the speakers have full contact with the floor. Then try the spikes Revel provided. Then see if you think you need something different.
 
#13,839 ·
I recommend you start with nothing and let the speakers have full contact with the floor. Then try the spikes Revel provided. Then see if you think you need something different.
With all due respect, this does not make sense. I already have the speakers (F228be) and already using them since June with spikes on carpet. I love them. But I don't know if they would sound any better with Stillpoints since I don't have Stillpoints. I was asking if any Revel owners does. There is no way for me to know if my speakers will sound better with something I don't have, until I have it.
 
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