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post #8161 of 18194 Old 01-11-2016, 03:57 AM
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Kef Q2DS Mods Dipole Bipole Atmos?

As newer sound systems appear to demand point source speakers/monopoles for surrounds I decide to review my side rear Kef Q2ds Dipoles.
So dismantled them. The mid and high units are simply wired out of phase. The mids are in parallel and the High in series. The 130mm Bass unit needs removing for access to the Xover.
So for Mid-units I swapped the MF2- Green/Black wire and the MF2 + Green wire.
For High The yellow HF+ goes to the first HF+ then Black goes from HF- to the HF- on the other unit, then Blue back to Xover HF-
Swapped the speaker Blue wide spade connector and Black narrow spade connector to reverse the phase so both in phase.
Where the original sound phasey as expected. the revised wiring sound much more focussed and tonally still balanced

Next had an idea to replace the 130mm bass unit with a Kef 130mm concentric full range and wire as rear atmos. The speakers are high on the wall either side of the listening area and have'nt got the real estate for rear presence.
With the Yammi the front presence seem to double as atmos speakers quite well.
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DigitalAV and chrisdack like this.

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post #8162 of 18194 Old 01-11-2016, 04:03 AM
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There's info around here somewhere on why dipole speakers are wired out of phase and it made some sense. I'm not going looking for it because it doesn't really matter for your application. I'm just saying it wasn't a mistake if that what you thought when you found it.

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post #8163 of 18194 Old 01-11-2016, 11:14 AM
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I think he was trying to achieve a more point source from speakers designed to deliver distributed sound rather than suggesting they were wired incorrectly.
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post #8164 of 18194 Old 01-11-2016, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
I think he was trying to achieve a more point source from speakers designed to deliver distributed sound rather than suggesting they were wired incorrectly.

OK, understood.


So as a related comment...I was over at my son's house this morning to hear his installation of the Q800ds. He has Q300 mains, a Q200c center and SVS SB2000 sub, all running off my old (2011?) Denon AVR1912. Oh my, does that system sound absolutely incredible! It's dialed in PERFECT and just so smooth. I wish my system was so perfectly balanced. He's got a much better room, being closed on all 4 sides and I think that works far better then my big L-shaped room. My speaker sound better in 2.1, though his sub is so much more than mine. Both are good for music, just not the same output. By a LOT.


Now I'm trying to figure out how KEF can claim the Q800ds to be a 3-way speaker. It's got two Uni-Q assemblies with 1" tweeter and 5-1/4" MR driver, no separate LF woofer. Does this mean they have the crossover set differently for one Uni-Q than the other which the exact same size?


Whatever the case, he's got into his system $520 for Q300 + $370 for Q200c + $600 for Q800ds + $700 for SB2000, plus free iQ10's & AVR1912 for a total of $2190. It sounds so good that you'd swear he spent 3x that amount or more. I'm so very happy for him. We both helped each other put the systems together and have both found some surprising bargains getting there.

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post #8165 of 18194 Old 01-11-2016, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
OK, understood.


So as a related comment...I was over at my son's house this morning to hear his installation of the Q800ds. He has Q300 mains, a Q200c center and SVS SB2000 sub, all running off my old (2011?) Denon AVR1912. Oh my, does that system sound absolutely incredible! It's dialed in PERFECT and just so smooth. I wish my system was so perfectly balanced. He's got a much better room, being closed on all 4 sides and I think that works far better then my big L-shaped room. My speaker sound better in 2.1, though his sub is so much more than mine. Both are good for music, just not the same output. By a LOT.


Now I'm trying to figure out how KEF can claim the Q800ds to be a 3-way speaker. It's got two Uni-Q assemblies with 1" tweeter and 5-1/4" MR driver, no separate LF woofer. Does this mean they have the crossover set differently for one Uni-Q than the other which the exact same size?


Whatever the case, he's got into his system $520 for Q300 + $370 for Q200c + $600 for Q800ds + $700 for SB2000, plus free iQ10's & AVR1912 for a total of $2190. It sounds so good that you'd swear he spent 3x that amount or more. I'm so very happy for him. We both helped each other put the systems together and have both found some surprising bargains getting there.
Awesome! The sub really is what I previously skimped on until I upgrade to the Ultimax. I'd be curious to hear the Q800ds one day to see if it's worth getting over my current Q15.2 bookshelves as rears. I previously had the Fluance XLBP which I wasn't too happy with.

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post #8166 of 18194 Old 01-11-2016, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
Now I'm trying to figure out how KEF can claim the Q800ds to be a 3-way speaker. It's got two Uni-Q assemblies with 1" tweeter and 5-1/4" MR driver, no separate LF woofer. Does this mean they have the crossover set differently for one Uni-Q than the other which the exact same size?
3-way isn't quite right, but the answer is "yes, they have the crossover set differently for one Uni-Q than the other."

One woofer is highpassed, so that they operate as a monopole down low and bidirectionally from the upper bass up.

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post #8167 of 18194 Old 01-11-2016, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by te1221 View Post
Awesome! The sub really is what I previously skimped on until I upgrade to the Ultimax. I'd be curious to hear the Q800ds one day to see if it's worth getting over my current Q15.2 bookshelves as rears. I previously had the Fluance XLBP which I wasn't too happy with.

For most of us our location shows up. If you or anyone else is near me and wants to hear my system or my son's (I'd have to clear that with him first), let me know.


There is the audio shop in Nashua NH where we bought most of our systems, they have a pair of Q800ds on the wall in one of their listening rooms. http://www.avtherapy.net/


Failing those options, you can always do what I did when I decided to start my big upgrade back in November. Go to KEF's website and find dealers near you, call a few and see if they have what you want to demo.

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post #8168 of 18194 Old 01-12-2016, 07:29 AM
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As a new first time KEF owner, I just thought I'd check in here. I got this pair of old Q10's last weekend for $25 at a garage sale. They sound incredible to me. Now I'm on the hunt for a Q90c, which I believe is the matching center for these. Then some surrounds, and eventually a subwoofer upgrade (currently have a Canton AS 20 SC). This is my first home theater build, and everyone on here has been very helpful and informative. I appreciate it!

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post #8169 of 18194 Old 01-12-2016, 09:16 AM
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Any suggestions on where to go to source single Kef speakers. Looking to add an r300 for center channel use. Is there a place where people go to buy pairs and split them up?


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post #8170 of 18194 Old 01-12-2016, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jw26 View Post
As a new first time KEF owner, I just thought I'd check in here. I got this pair of old Q10's last weekend for $25 at a garage sale. They sound incredible to me. Now I'm on the hunt for a Q90c, which I believe is the matching center for these. Then some surrounds, and eventually a subwoofer upgrade (currently have a Canton AS 20 SC). This is my first home theater build, and everyone on here has been very helpful and informative. I appreciate it!

Didn't you get one of the center speakers from someone on your other thread?

Quote:
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Any suggestions on where to go to source single Kef speakers. Looking to add an r300 for center channel use. Is there a place where people go to buy pairs and split them up?

I wouldn't recommend using an R300 as a center speaker when KEF has the R200c and R600c centers available and those are engineered specifically for that job, "tonally matched" to the R series speakers. May I ask why you wish to do differently? I'm curious.

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post #8171 of 18194 Old 01-12-2016, 10:32 AM
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There's a couple members here who have offered up some "vintage" center speakers to another person looking. If you can't find that thread to contact them I'll see if I can find it for you. Perhaps it was this one, further up?
Thanks Ken. I've actually had a couple people contact me with Q95's and Model 90's. Although, the more research I do, the more I want to spring for the Model 100. I saw a post from GlassWolf (whom I remember as being extremely knowledgable from my time on the car audio boards years ago) saying he "noticed a marked improvement in dialog going from a model 90 to the model 100".
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post #8172 of 18194 Old 01-12-2016, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post

I wouldn't recommend using an R300 as a center speaker when KEF has the R200c and R600c centers available and those are engineered specifically for that job, "tonally matched" to the R series speakers. May I ask why you wish to do differently? I'm curious.
R300 would fit perfectly where I'm looking to place it. It should work just fine for my intended purposes.
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post #8173 of 18194 Old 01-12-2016, 10:47 AM
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R300 would fit perfectly where I'm looking to place it. It should work just fine for my intended purposes.

Ah, OK. I haven't ever seen a single offered and until today, hadn't heard of anyone wanting to use one for that.


Best of luck to you in finding one. You should try contacting KEF USA (if you're in the US) to see if they might have one kicking around from a pair that one got destroyed in shipping. I can picture that happening!

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post #8174 of 18194 Old 01-12-2016, 11:00 AM
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This chart from the KEF brochure says the Model 90 is a better match for my Q10's than the Model 100. But the Model 100 is supposed to be the better speaker. Which one would you guys/gals go with?


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post #8175 of 18194 Old 01-12-2016, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jw26 View Post
This chart from the KEF brochure says the Model 90 is a better match for my Q10's than the Model 100. But the Model 100 is supposed to be the better speaker. Which one would you guys/gals go with?
Where did you find that brochure? I've been unable to locate it at kef.com. I can't tell if the claim is that the new R200C or old 200C is a good center match for the Reference 104/2 and 107/2 speakers. My experience is that the R200C might be -- the R600C matches well with my 107/2s, but the older 200C did not. I suspect there has been a lot of Uni-Q development between the R200C and 200C. And AV speakers are recommended for surrounds with the 104/2 and 107/2, but I don't see an AV model in KEF's current listing.
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post #8176 of 18194 Old 01-12-2016, 11:51 AM
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Where did you find that brochure? I've been unable to locate it at kef.com. I can't tell if the claim is that the new R200C or old 200C is a good center match for the Reference 104/2 and 107/2 speakers. My experience is that the R200C might be -- the R600C matches well with my 107/2s, but the older 200C did not. I suspect there has been a lot of Uni-Q development between the R200C and 200C. And AV speakers are recommended for surrounds with the 104/2 and 107/2, but I don't see an AV model in KEF's current listing.
Here you go. The brochure link is at the bottom of the page...

http://www.kef.com/html/us/explore/a..._90/index.html

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Here you go. The brochure link is at the bottom of the page...

http://www.kef.com/html/us/explore/a..._90/index.html
I would suggest going with the better center speaker. That's where all your on screen action is coming from and if you ever decide to upgrade the fronts you'll have a better chance of your center keeping up with the newer/better speaker.
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post #8178 of 18194 Old 01-12-2016, 12:16 PM
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I would suggest going with the better center speaker. That's where all your on screen action is coming from and if you ever decide to upgrade the fronts you'll have a better chance of your center keeping up with the newer/better speaker.
Thanks. That's what I was thinking.

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post #8179 of 18194 Old 01-12-2016, 12:29 PM
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Here you go. The brochure link is at the bottom of the page...
Thanks. For anyone looking for the chart, you need to download the brochure. I have often visited the KEF museum site, but hadn't noticed the brochure download. The AV2s recommended as surrounds for the 107/2s are part of an older THX series that got some bad reviews. As I write this, I'm listening to a pair of LS50s as surrounds with my 107/2s, and the surround sound is superb whether it's true 5.1 from Jazz at the Pawnshop or NEO:6 Music from Cantus. OTOH, I prefer the sound with the R600C as center channel to that of an LS50. I tired an LS50 LCR setup that I did not implement well, but went back to my 107/2 - R600C LCR setup, perhaps unfairly, but I'm happy with my decision.
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post #8180 of 18194 Old 01-12-2016, 12:43 PM
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There's a pair of the 107/2's on Audiogon right now and man do I wish I could afford those. Incredible speakers that (apparently) haven't lost much value in the ensuing years. Congrats on having them!


Given the size, style and (especially) output of the 107/2, I'm not the least bit surprised to learn the newer R600c works better for you.

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post #8181 of 18194 Old 01-12-2016, 05:48 PM
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The 107/2s are power (or current) hungry speakers. I used a Proceed HPA 3 (3 X 500 watt into 4Ω Mark Levinson mono blocks in an industrial case) to drive them, and thought they sounded very fine. But when I substituted Parasound JC 1 mono blocks (800 watts into 4Ω), my jaw literally dropped as the 107/2s pumped out organ pedal notes with such great authority.
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post #8182 of 18194 Old 01-13-2016, 03:50 AM
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I still have 104/2 bought used in 1996. After much research the best recommended center was the original 200c and I feel it blends well with 104/2.
107/2 was a later speaker so may need a later center for timbre matching.
Problem I have is if I replace 104/2 what the heck do I get. Fancied LS50s but comments above don't look encouraging. There is R900 or older Ref 203/1
But then most comments imply to keep the 104/2? confused.....

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They're very good speakers for the time. If you can get a listen to R900's you might be impressed enough to make a move, anything less would leave you wanting.


You could always just update the tweeters you have, the larger drivers should be OK.

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post #8184 of 18194 Old 01-13-2016, 12:46 PM
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I sure hope my posts didn't discourage you regarding the LS50s. I have five of them and think they're terrific speakers. I really didn't give them a fair evaluation for LCR in my main setup, but I'm so enamored with the sound of the Reference 107/2s, the LS50s probably didn't have a chance in any case. Replacing the handsome rosewood R600C that matches the rosewood 107/2s with a black LS50 is a closer call that I may reexamine.*

For years, I used a pair of 104/2s before I acquired the 107/2s. They have a less nuanced sound presentation than the 107/2s, and less LF extension. Acoustic memory is fragile, but I suspect I might prefer a LS50 LCR to a 104/2 - 200c LCR. Either would benefit by being supplemented by a good pair of subs.

* Although 25 years separates the R600C from the 107/2s, they appear as though designed to be a matching set.
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post #8185 of 18194 Old 01-17-2016, 06:28 PM
 
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Anyone have feedback on the Ci200.3qt in ceiling motorized speakers? Looking to use them as LCR for a special install. No room for speakers on screen wall as screen will take up almost entire wall. Low 7' ceilings. MLP only 14' back. Looking for good SPL with of course good clarity. Also considering these against Klipsch THX in ceiling KL-7502s.

Thanks much.


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post #8186 of 18194 Old 01-17-2016, 06:42 PM
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How big is your screen vs. the wall it's hanging in front of? If there's any chance of it, having speakers behind an acoustically transparent screen would be preferable. That's what I what first try to do.


Failing that, no I've not got any experience with the Ci200.3QT speakers though I know it to be a well engineered product with great sound quality. The closest I come is the four Ci200QR speakers I picked up cheap recently and hope to install as part of an Atmos 7.1.4 system at my son's house or 5.1.4 here at my home.

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red, Bluesound Vault2, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Desktop: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b. Guest room: Hafler 200 L-R, KEF reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, M&K V-90 sub.
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post #8187 of 18194 Old 01-24-2016, 01:45 PM
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Hi All-I'm looking to sell a set of Q series speakers in honey maple (two Q7, two Q5 and a Q9c). I have some nice cables that go with them as well. The speakers are about 15 years old. Any suggestions on how to go about selling them?
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post #8188 of 18194 Old 01-24-2016, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Schacht View Post
Any suggestions on where to go to source single Kef speakers. Looking to add an r300 for center channel use. Is there a place where people go to buy pairs and split them up?
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Many KEF dealers will let you purchase a single R series bookshelf if you request it. You'll likely have to wait for them to special order it however.
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post #8189 of 18194 Old 01-24-2016, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Peedlum View Post
Hi All-I'm looking to sell a set of Q series speakers in honey maple (two Q7, two Q5 and a Q9c). I have some nice cables that go with them as well. The speakers are about 15 years old. Any suggestions on how to go about selling them?
Your local Craigslist, classified section here, eBay, Audiogon, same way everyone else does it.

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red, Bluesound Vault2, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Desktop: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b. Guest room: Hafler 200 L-R, KEF reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, M&K V-90 sub.
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post #8190 of 18194 Old 01-24-2016, 02:13 PM
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@sdg4vfx thanks, ended up finding a great deal on an r600c.


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