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post #17191 of 18994 Old 03-27-2019, 07:43 PM
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Has anyone had success integrating a subwoofer with the ls50 wireless? I'm receiving a rythmik f18 this friday but I'm not sure where to set my crossover. I was thinking of doing a high pass filter between 60-80hz and having the sub handle everything below that, but I'm not sure if it would be better to let the speakers play full range instead.
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post #17192 of 18994 Old 03-27-2019, 08:00 PM
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Has anyone had success integrating a subwoofer with the ls50 wireless? I'm receiving a rythmik f18 this friday but I'm not sure where to set my crossover. I was thinking of doing a high pass filter between 60-80hz and having the sub handle everything below that, but I'm not sure if it would be better to let the speakers play full range instead.
It's never better to let a 5" woofer play bass when you have an 18" sub available. 80Hz is a good starting point but you can experiment around there.
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post #17193 of 18994 Old 03-27-2019, 10:49 PM
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I find this very interesting. Stereophile recommended components 2019 edition. LS50 gets 'A'(the highest) alongside $225,000 speakers. The Reference 5 gets 'B'. So I can only assume the Reference 1 which is not on there would be 'C' or 'D'.
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post #17194 of 18994 Old 03-28-2019, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by TriTon464 View Post
I find this very interesting. Stereophile recommended components 2019 edition. LS50 gets 'A'(the highest) alongside $225,000 speakers. The Reference 5 gets 'B'. So I can only assume the Reference 1 which is not on there would be 'C' or 'D'.
Why would you assume this? A number of reviewers have preferred the Ref 1 to the other Ref series, saying its sound is better integrated.
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post #17195 of 18994 Old 03-28-2019, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by TriTon464 View Post
I find this very interesting. Stereophile recommended components 2019 edition. LS50 gets 'A'(the highest) alongside $225,000 speakers. The Reference 5 gets 'B'. So I can only assume the Reference 1 which is not on there would be 'C' or 'D'.
Ls50 is indeed a great speaker. After hearing other speakers, when you turn on LS50, it seems like someone has taken the wool blanket off the speaker. It is that clear. The reasons I think are lower diffraction, stiff cabinet, and better drivers compared with other R or Q series speakers.

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post #17196 of 18994 Old 03-28-2019, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by aa aw View Post
Has anyone had success integrating a subwoofer with the ls50 wireless? I'm receiving a rythmik f18 this friday but I'm not sure where to set my crossover. I was thinking of doing a high pass filter between 60-80hz and having the sub handle everything below that, but I'm not sure if it would be better to let the speakers play full range instead.
The LS50's do a pretty decent job, but adding a sub will add more depth and will play the low end more efficiently. The sub will also increase headroom on your amps. If properly placed and setup, your speakers may even sound better.

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post #17197 of 18994 Old 03-28-2019, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by TriTon464 View Post
I find this very interesting. Stereophile recommended components 2019 edition. LS50 gets 'A'(the highest) alongside $225,000 speakers. The Reference 5 gets 'B'. So I can only assume the Reference 1 which is not on there would be 'C' or 'D'.
We know what happens when you assume...
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post #17198 of 18994 Old 03-28-2019, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by TriTon464 View Post
I find this very interesting. Stereophile recommended components 2019 edition. LS50 gets 'A'(the highest) alongside $225,000 speakers. The Reference 5 gets 'B'. So I can only assume the Reference 1 which is not on there would be 'C' or 'D'.


Take reviews with a grain of salt. When people can see the speakers their preference is often times not the same as double blind tests which suggests people hear with their eyes not their ears when the speaker is in sight.

If you want to know more you can look up Dr Toole.


-To be an audiophile you must abandon all research and science.
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post #17199 of 18994 Old 03-28-2019, 09:11 AM
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Hi all,

I know threads for my exact purpose exist (and I posted this elsewhere too) but I wanted to talk to the KEF Community and see if anyone had any anecdotal information. I'm particularly interested in thoughts on in-ceiling speaker types (i.e., Q series vs. E series) and whether or not the tangerine tech is really worth it for this purpose (in ceiling music).

For context. I have a house that is pre-wired for in ceiling speakers and want to use these for background music listening in the living room, kitchen, and master bedroom. I was going to put a Sonos amp(s) in each "zone" and wire the speakers to them just from a simplicity perspective. I recognize a multi zone amp is probably better but the WAF looms large here. She loves Sonos' interface and that allows me to invest in the speakers I want since she's a happy camper.

Size of zones (number of speakers):

1) Kitchen / family room - 20 x 30 (4 speakers)
2) Living room / dining room - 20 x 30 (4 speakers)
3) Master bed / bath - 20 x 25 (3 speakers)

All that said, I'm looking at a budget of $250 or less per speaker. I'd ideally like to work with 6.5" / 5.25" drivers just so the speakers have a smaller diameter than my existing can lights (8" range) - but I'm not ruling anything out just yet.

So I've been tossing around the CI130QR vs. the CI130ER and then figuring out if I should go up to the CI160 series as it provides that much more power for the size of the room(s).

Would love some feedback from anyone who's been in my situation or is currently using a similar setup.

Best,


SB
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post #17200 of 18994 Old 03-28-2019, 11:19 AM
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great video on the R700


again one of the main reasons i prefer R3/R300's for home theater purposes over the LS50's.

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C / Fluance Signature Series, SX6, XL5F/ Mirage M-190 / DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-II
Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300
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post #17201 of 18994 Old 03-28-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by gotbuck View Post
Hi all,

I know threads for my exact purpose exist (and I posted this elsewhere too) but I wanted to talk to the KEF Community and see if anyone had any anecdotal information. I'm particularly interested in thoughts on in-ceiling speaker types (i.e., Q series vs. E series) and whether or not the tangerine tech is really worth it for this purpose (in ceiling music).

For context. I have a house that is pre-wired for in ceiling speakers and want to use these for background music listening in the living room, kitchen, and master bedroom. I was going to put a Sonos amp(s) in each "zone" and wire the speakers to them just from a simplicity perspective. I recognize a multi zone amp is probably better but the WAF looms large here. She loves Sonos' interface and that allows me to invest in the speakers I want since she's a happy camper.

Size of zones (number of speakers):

1) Kitchen / family room - 20 x 30 (4 speakers)
2) Living room / dining room - 20 x 30 (4 speakers)
3) Master bed / bath - 20 x 25 (3 speakers)

All that said, I'm looking at a budget of $250 or less per speaker. I'd ideally like to work with 6.5" / 5.25" drivers just so the speakers have a smaller diameter than my existing can lights (8" range) - but I'm not ruling anything out just yet.

So I've been tossing around the CI130QR vs. the CI130ER and then figuring out if I should go up to the CI160 series as it provides that much more power for the size of the room(s).

Would love some feedback from anyone who's been in my situation or is currently using a similar setup.

Best,


SB
I love KEF and have them in two different HT setups. That being said, if you're using these just for background music I wouldn't pay for KEF in-ceilings. I would go with something like these:

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...-pair--300-402

Or maybe at least just install one pair and see what you think. If you don't like them, you're only out $50. But if they sound just fine for background music, and you use them everywhere, you saved $2,200.
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post #17202 of 18994 Old 03-28-2019, 12:21 PM
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My single L12 sub is in the front right corner maybe 1.5' to 2' from the front right speaker. And the MLP is also one seat right of dead center between the main speakers due to limited space.

Are you saying that the Q150s could be crossed higher (or lower) because they produce more bass than your Q100s? I'm not sure I followed that last sentence or two.
I realize that my response was a bit confusing and see how it goes against normal logic. I'm pretty certain the reason I preferred the 80Hz crossover for the q100s due to some bass localization because of my poorly placed sub location. The result is a little thinner bass in that range, but it sounds much cleaner and little to no localization. I therefore believe (but need to test this further) that the more pronounced bass from the q150s will clean up some of the localization factor if crossed at 100Hz. I may be wrong there, but I am pretty sure I have done a little bit of testing of that in the past. I've just done so much changing up of settings in the last few months that I can't even remember clearly what all was done now. That's why I've taken a little break in that regard and am just switching them out every once every couple of weeks now.......mostly.

In the end, it really had little to do with your setup. In a more ideal setup I would say that the q150s should be able to more easily crossover at a lower frequency. But there are often lots of different factors in each setup that affect the sound. In my case it's a less than ideally placed sub, and for you it is a sensitivity to certain frequencies. So we just make the adjustments, as you have, to what sounds best to our own ears. As you said in a more recent post, even the differences in the crossover settings were quite subtle. I feel the same way in my setup. I didn't notice everything immediately, but once I did, it was hard to unhear. Some of the issues also only show up with certain songs, which I am sure have more emphasized notes within these ranges.
Thanks for clarifying. I think my a/b testing with the 2 speaker setup patterns and scene programmable buttons really put it to rest and spared me many REW sweeps which would not directly line up with my ears's findings anyways...

Maybe there are measurements that could or I simply don't know how to interpret them fully/properly but listening back and forth between the two crossovers with familiar material was much simpler, easier, and faster.

That being said REW is certainly great for determining best sub placement, EQ, phase alignment with speakers and sub.

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post #17203 of 18994 Old 03-28-2019, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dftkell View Post
I love KEF and have them in two different HT setups. That being said, if you're using these just for background music I wouldn't pay for KEF in-ceilings. I would go with something like these:

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...-pair--300-402

Or maybe at least just install one pair and see what you think. If you don't like them, you're only out $50. But if they sound just fine for background music, and you use them everywhere, you saved $2,200.
Thanks for the feedback. I didn't realize Dayton made in-ceiling offerings. The more you know...

So I was able to find a few pairs of KEF CI130ER in a particular "Bay" (not of the San Fran variety) - 160 / pair. Seems like a pretty awesome price so I think I'm gonna bite, just because of the speaker placement and the wide dispersion KEF is known for. Now they're not warranted obviously (although Square Trade gives me that choice for 12 a pair), but at 80 a speaker, I don't really think it's a terrible roll of the dice. Thoughts?

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post #17204 of 18994 Old 03-28-2019, 06:13 PM
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Thanks for the feedback. I didn't realize Dayton made in-ceiling offerings. The more you know...

So I was able to find a few pairs of KEF CI130ER in a particular "Bay" (not of the San Fran variety) - $160 / pair. Seems like a pretty awesome price so I think I'm gonna bite, just because of the speaker placement and the wide dispersion KEF is known for. Now they're not warranted obviously (although Square Trade gives me that choice for $12 a pair), but at $80 a speaker, I don't really think it's a terrible roll of the dice. Thoughts?
The KEF Ci130ER's should be outstanding for that application, I'd jump on them at that price!

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post #17205 of 18994 Old 03-28-2019, 11:10 PM
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I’ve been pretty surprised how pretty good the little R2C center is performing coming from a 100lb Reference Center.

I think I mentioned my plan is to move my rear LS50s to a bedroom setup and I bought the R2C over a third LS50. It’s pretty dang good sounding in HT. After living with the R2C for a couple of weeks, and I know recent posts of LS50 vs R for HT. Being quite impressed with this little R2C I would say the new R series might be a more awesome HT set-up over the LS50. But it certainly sounds pretty darn good with 50s left/right and the latest R2C center. Glad I went this direction for a soon secondary system.

Now moving on from that. Boy, I was reluctant, but this center isn’t a beast and I thought it might sound better raised a few inches and lifted off my glass AV cabinet. Cabinet is wood but top shelf is glass. I took a stab at this stand and I’ll be damned if it doesn’t really make a difference. Getting it floating, raised three inches has made a really noticeable non-bs difference.

I’m really impressed with this KEF center and the stand does make a difference. Not a snake oil guy but off the glass and up three inches really improved the overall sound. Impressed two days in.

Some might bitch at $150 or so but it really does work. They get great reviews for their tower speaker footers from what I’ve read. Strongly suggested.

https://www.musicdirect.com/furnitur...-Speaker-Stand
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post #17206 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 12:29 AM
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Now moving on from that. Boy, I was reluctant, but this center isn’t a beast and I thought it might sound better raised a few inches and lifted off my glass AV cabinet. Cabinet is wood but top shelf is glass. I took a stab at this stand and I’ll be damned if it doesn’t really make a difference. Getting it floating, raised three inches has made a really noticeable non-bs difference.

I’m really impressed with this KEF center and the stand does make a difference. Not a snake oil guy but off the glass and up three inches really improved the overall sound. Impressed two days in.

Some might bitch at $150 or so but it really does work. They get great reviews for their tower speaker footers from what I’ve read. Strongly suggested.

https://www.musicdirect.com/furnitur...-Speaker-Stand
I use two of those under my KEF Ref 204/2C monster.
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post #17207 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 09:51 AM
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I don't doubt DIY soundgroup is a good value but the reason I wouldn't chance it is because I don't see measurements of any of the designs, I've listened to enough speakers to know what I like in terms of measurements so they need to pass that test first. The reason I went with a Zaph design when I did mine was because his designs are all very well laid out with measurements and detailed plans on how to assemble the cabinets and build the crossover.


I agree about measurements....I like to know what I’m getting besides going on subjective praise. Based on this, my budget and my objectives, just ordered DIYSG HTM-8’s. On and off axis measurements posted for these are as good or better than any retail speaker I’ve seen, and 94 dB efficiency makes them suitable for movie dynamics better than almost any retail speaker. It would be really interesting to see how these would fair with a full battery of measurements such as those done by stereophile. I find that reference level, or even 10 below, is a very tall if not impossible order for most regular hifi speakers. At least with low distortion/compression. Found a nice website with a lot of spinorama type measurements on speaker, most were distortion tested at 90 dB level(15 below reference) at 2m distance which is closer than most people’s setup, and only a very small handful of speakers had low enough distortion to increase the sweep level to 95 dB(10 below reference).


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post #17208 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 10:59 AM
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I agree about measurements....I like to know what I’m getting besides going on subjective praise. Based on this, my budget and my objectives, just ordered DIYSG HTM-8’s. On and off axis measurements posted for these are as good or better than any retail speaker I’ve seen, and 94 dB efficiency makes them suitable for movie dynamics better than almost any retail speaker. It would be really interesting to see how these would fair with a full battery of measurements such as those done by stereophile. I find that reference level, or even 10 below, is a very tall if not impossible order for most regular hifi speakers. At least with low distortion/compression. Found a nice website with a lot of spinorama type measurements on speaker, most were distortion tested at 90 dB level(15 below reference) at 2m distance which is closer than most people’s setup, and only a very small handful of speakers had low enough distortion to increase the sweep level to 95 dB(10 below reference).


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Under what conditions is "reference level" at 105dB? I thought reference level was 85dB, and THX 2 specifies being able to reach 105db peaks (not sustained.)


Look at KEF specs on their website. They show the R7 speakers at +/- 0.3% THD from 100hz to 20khz @ 90dB measured at 1 meter. Those specs have been verified by several independent testers. I think that's still pretty good, though don't know how much it would deteriorate between that level and their 110dB max.

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
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post #17209 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 11:01 AM
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I just found out from a reliable source. The Reference 1 was "quietly" "revamped" about 3 weeks ago. Already shipping. Hit dealers about 4 days ago. I am going to listen to them Tomorrow. Apparently it does not say anything different but they can tell by the serial #. He promised he has 1 pair of the new ones in the box. This should be interesting. He said I can A/B the "old" ones. Without blind I bet it is pretty difficult but who knows. I found the "old" one to be mid-bass heavy but otherwise pretty good. I really wonder if that is what they addressed.
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post #17210 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 11:37 AM
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I just found out from a reliable source. The Reference 1 was "quietly" "revamped" about 3 weeks ago. Already shipping. Hit dealers about 4 days ago. I am going to listen to them Tomorrow. Apparently it does not say anything different but they can tell by the serial #. He promised he has 1 pair of the new ones in the box. This should be interesting. He said I can A/B the "old" ones. Without blind I bet it is pretty difficult but who knows. I found the "old" one to be mid-bass heavy but otherwise pretty good. I really wonder if that is what they addressed.
In my experience, it depends on the port insert used and the distance from the rear wall. When I first fired mine up I was dismayed by what seemed too much mid-bass, but then I changed the port insert and that cured the problem. My Ref 1s are 16" from the rear wall and supplemented at 40 Hz by a pair of subs with 24 dB/octave slope and acoustic room correction. I suspect I could move the 40 Hz up to 45 or even 50 without noticing overlap, but I expect to try a passive 80 Hz 24 dB high-pass filter in the near future at which time I'll reset the low-pass to 80 Hz 24 dB.
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post #17211 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 01:07 PM
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I just found out from a reliable source. The Reference 1 was "quietly" "revamped" about 3 weeks ago. Already shipping. Hit dealers about 4 days ago. I am going to listen to them Tomorrow. Apparently it does not say anything different but they can tell by the serial #. He promised he has 1 pair of the new ones in the box. This should be interesting. He said I can A/B the "old" ones. Without blind I bet it is pretty difficult but who knows. I found the "old" one to be mid-bass heavy but otherwise pretty good. I really wonder if that is what they addressed.
You can use a blind and make it a blind test for you. Would love to hear your eval.

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post #17212 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 03:24 PM
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So, a quick update on the 80Hz crossover with my Q150s... to address the somewhat leaner midbass, I tried using the outer bung alone for the 3 front Q150s and left the 2 Q150s as surrounds fully plugged. The reason being that the fronts have at least the 9 inches from back wall to port but the surrounds are right up against the wall.

So far listening to Spotify, it seems to have certainly helped and vocals seem have more presence or something beneficial of the sort. My only concern is whether I will have to listen to slightly lower levels than before as I am sensitive to strong mid to upper bass and too much can cause headaches fairly easily.

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post #17213 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 03:26 PM
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Under what conditions is "reference level" at 105dB? I thought reference level was 85dB, and THX 2 specifies being able to reach 105db peaks (not sustained.)


Look at KEF specs on their website. They show the R7 speakers at +/- 0.3% THD from 100hz to 20khz @ 90dB measured at 1 meter. Those specs have been verified by several independent testers. I think that's still pretty good, though don't know how much it would deteriorate between that level and their 110dB max.
That's what I always thought as well, when I use an SPL meter to see how loud I'm listening to, my PEAKS are 85db, the average is closer to 80db and that's as loud as I care to ever have my music. Also in soundstage's distortion tests, 90db @ 2m in an anechoic chamber is the equivalent to 102 db in a room, I don't think anyone is listening that loud, at least I hope not. My 85 db sensitive LS50's are more than enough to do permanent hearing damage, so I don't really see the benefit of high sensitivity speakers myself.
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post #17214 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
So, a quick update on the 80Hz crossover with my Q150s... to address the somewhat leaner midbass, I tried using the outer bung alone for the 3 front Q150s and left the 2 Q150s as surrounds fully plugged. The reason being that the fronts have at least the 9 inches from back wall to port but the surrounds are right up against the wall.

So far listening to Spotify, it seems to have certainly helped and vocals seem have more presence or something beneficial of the sort. My only concern is whether I will have to listen to slightly lower levels than before as I am sensitive to strong mid to upper bass and too much can cause headaches fairly easily.
I think I know exactly what you're talking about and letting my subs play too high has bothered me in the past as well. The way I have them setup now with a 100Hz crossover is to add in a 1st order low pass through my mini dsp so that the subs are -9db at 100Hz and rolling off with a 5th order slope or 30db per octave. If you don't have a mini dsp, you could also "cascade" the crossover from your receiver and your sub to achieve a similar effect, I wouldn't put the sub crossover down at 100 though, maybe 130-150, just a thought if you ever want to raise your crossover.
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post #17215 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 04:20 PM
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KEF Speakers and Excessive Vocal Volume

I have a (couple?) problem(s) and am ot entirely sure where to post this, so please feel free to redirect me.

I am very new to this, but have been doing tons of research.
I purchased, nstalled, and set up my system through the last week (installing wires in walls, in-ceiling speakers, etc.) for a 5.1.4 setup.

Began listening Wednesday. I was imediately impressed with the crystal clarity present in music, as I'd never heard KEF before but was following the recommendations of many gurus on this site who seemed to speak with credible authority when I finally made my purchase. This after about a year and a half lurking on these forums.

I watched this cool little animated Dolby
video with my boys which showcases Dolby Atmos/Vision that came embedded in the software of my television.
PROBLEM: What I noticed was, at the 33 second mark, when the girl in the video flips the switches on her tuning fork, the 3 or 4 tones emitted were barely audible and I had to raise the volume exceptionally in order to hear them.

I ran Audyssey the <Wednesday> night before last after receiving and hooking up the subwoofer. Had a glitch telling me the center speaker was out of phase and recommending I check polarity and ignore if correct. Polarity was correct, so I ignored. While verifying settings, I discovered Audyssey had set my Fronts (Q700s) and Center (Q600C) to 60Hz Xover, so I adjusted to 80. Top fronts were at 90, Top Rears at 80, Rears (port-plugged Q100s) at 110. I changed The fronts and center to 80 and kept everything else the same.

Listened to some music pretty low volume, with the family sleeping.

Then last night, I googled this forum for some ideas for tracks that test range and clarity and played them on Tidal. Here's the rub; when I played Portishead's Glory Box and Wandering Star (tracks I enjoyed on my old AIWA shelf-system back in the day)
PROBLEM: I realized that the vocals were considerably louder than the instrumentation. I remembered them being almost equally matched, so I find this very curious. I played the same songs on my cheap <Roku> earbuds at work, being played on my computer with a HORRIBLE onboard audio in an HP min-case. The vocals and instrumentals were much more evenly matched, as I had remembered them on my AIWA back in '93.

So, is this just the sound profile of KEF? Or did something go wacky with Audyssey, maybe having to do with some kind of noise cancellation from the center speaker? Or am I not running sufficient wattage with the SR7012 to power the front channels?

I've read, from a review on Amazon, that there is an issue with the internal quality of the knob between the rear binding posts utilized for bi-wiring or bi-amping these speakers and that you should externally bi-amp them to get the proper range of the speakers. Is there validity to this and could that be what's going on here? The cables are currently hooked to the bottom binding posts and I intend to bi-wire them anyway but just have not yet done so.

Any help or advice is appreciated.

Edit: Don't know if relevant, but in hindsight I never adjusted the volume of the subwoofer in Audyssey, as I have seen performed in a video before the testing is performed. I put the volume at 50%, as directed by Rythmik, and the results of the final setting for the SW, as a result of running Audyssey, was -5dB.

ATMOS 5.1.4 - KEF Q700 - Q600C - Q100 - KEF Ci160CL(x4-in-ceiling) - Rythmik FV15HP - Marantz SR7012 - LG OLED65B7P - Panasonic DP-UB820 - Roku Ultra

Last edited by ibrewmination; 03-29-2019 at 04:33 PM. Reason: Additional Info
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post #17216 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ibrewmination View Post
I have a (couple?) problem(s) and am ot entirely sure where to post this, so please feel free to redirect me.

I am very new to this, but have been doing tons of research.
I purchased, nstalled, and set up my system through the last week (installing wires in walls, in-ceiling speakers, etc.) for a 5.1.4 setup.

Began listening Wednesday. I was imediately impressed with the crystal clarity present in music, as I'd never heard KEF before but was following the recommendations of many gurus on this site who seemed to speak with credible authority when I finally made my purchase. This after about a year and a half lurking on these forums.

I watched this cool little animated Dolby Escape video with my boys which showcases Dolby Atmos/Vision that came embedded in the software of my television.
PROBLEM: What I noticed was, at the 33 second mark, when the girl in the video flips the switches on her tuning fork, the 3 or 4 tones emitted were barely audible and I had to raise the volume exceptionally in order to hear them.

I ran Audyssey the <Wednesday> night before last after receiving and hooking up the subwoofer. Had a glitch telling me the center speaker was out of phase and recommending I check polarity and ignore if correct. Polarity was correct, so I ignored. While verifying settings, I discovered Audyssey had set my Fronts (Q700s) and Center (Q600C) to 60Hz Xover, so I adjusted to 80. Top fronts were at 90, Top Rears at 80, Rears (port-plugged Q100s) at 110. I changed The fronts and center to 80 and kept everything else the same.

Listened to some music pretty low volume, with the family sleeping.

Then last night, I googled this forum for some ideas for tracks that test range and clarity and played them on Tidal. Here's the rub; when I played Portishead's Glory Box and Wandering Star (tracks I enjoyed on my old AIWA shelf-system back in the day)
PROBLEM: I realized that the vocals were considerably louder than the instrumentation. I remembered them being almost equally matched, so I find this very curious. I played the same songs on my cheap <Roku> earbuds at work, being played on my computer with a HORRIBLE onboard audio in an HP min-case. The vocals and instrumentals were much more evenly matched, as I had remembered them on my AIWA back in '93.

So, is this just the sound profile of KEF? Or did something go wacky with Audyssey, maybe having to do with some kind of noise cancellation from the center speaker? Or am I not running sufficient wattage with the SR7012 to power the front channels?

I've read, from a review on Amazon, that there is an issue with the internal quality of the knob between the rear binding posts utilized for bi-wiring or bi-amping these speakers and that you should externally bi-amp them to get the proper range of the speakers. Is there validity to this and could that be what's going on here? The cables are currently hooked to the bottom binding posts and I intend to bi-wire them anyway but just have not yet done so.

Any help or advice is appreciated.

Edit: Don't know if relevant, but in hindsight I never adjusted the volume of the subwoofer in Audyssey, as I have seen performed in a video before the testing is performed. I put the volume at 50%, as directed by Rythmik, and the results of the final setting for the SW, as a result of running Audyssey, was -5dB.
Denon receivers have a common glitch of detecting out of phase speakers (they really aren't, but never hurts to double check) during audyssey setup. They also commonly set the front speakers to large after calibration so you need to manually set them to small if you haven't already done so.

If you have dynamic eq turned on, you might want to turn it off for music. Vocals might be more dominant for music if you're listening in surround/atmos. Most music is still mixed in stereo and IMO sounds best when listening in that format or direct mode which turns off the sub.

Adjusting the sub trim is entirely up to you. I like my bass balanced with all the other instruments so for music I set it 1.5db below audyssey default. For HT, I'll turn on dynamic eq and run the sub 3-4db hotter. It really comes down to your personal preference. You have a very nice sub on your hands and might want to run it in sealed mode for music.

Kef LS50,Q200C, Q100, SVS SB-2000, Denon AVR-X3400H, NAD 216, Panasonic 50" Plasma, Xbox One.
Bedroom: Kef Q100 ,JBL Loft 20, Bic F-12, Denon AVR-S710W, PS3, 32" Insigna LED.

Last edited by pase22; 03-29-2019 at 05:10 PM.
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post #17217 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 05:19 PM
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They also commonly set the front speakers to large after calibration so you need to manually set them to small if you haven't already done so.
The Marantz had set all my speakers to small, fortunately. So I didn't need to adjust there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
If you have dynamic eq turned on, you might want to turn it off for music.
I turned off dynamic eq, that one that's supposed to "prevent bass from travelling through walls", and auto night listening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
Most music is still mixed in stereo and IMO sounds best when listening in that format or direct mode which turns off the sub.
When listening to Portishead, it was a streaming FLAC file from TIDAL. Does the receiver not automatically switch to two-channel when listening to music. I don't think music was coming from either the rears or ceilings, but I DO think it was coming from the sub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
Adjusting the sub trim is entirely up to you. I like my bass balanced with all the other instruments so for music I set it 1.5db below audyssey default. For HT, I'll turn on dynamic eq and run the sub 3-4db hotter. It really comes down to your personal preference.
Good to know. I just had remembered seeing a video on balancing the volume of the bass first, and then a buddy at work who has the Marantz 6012 told me about it <Audyssey> directing him to adjust the bass dB to 75 (as Audyssey measured it) before running the test cycles. It never instructed me to do that, so was wondering if I missed a step. I suppose I could look in the manual again.

ATMOS 5.1.4 - KEF Q700 - Q600C - Q100 - KEF Ci160CL(x4-in-ceiling) - Rythmik FV15HP - Marantz SR7012 - LG OLED65B7P - Panasonic DP-UB820 - Roku Ultra
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post #17218 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 05:44 PM
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I just heard (again) at the KEF dealer the R7 speaker and I think those are the best sounding speakers I've heard until know and comparing them to the R3 they R7 provides a wider much more defined image. Also the R7 made music sound so real that with some instruments I thought someone was actually playing a real instrument in front of me.

MY QUESTION IS: What's the minimum size a room should be for the R7s? And most importantly, how far away at minimum should I be from those speakers. I'm placing them in a room in which I have plenty of space for separation (horizontal) between each speakers but no so much room between the speakers and me. Thank you!
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post #17219 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 07:24 PM
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Under what conditions is "reference level" at 105dB? I thought reference level was 85dB, and THX 2 specifies being able to reach 105db peaks (not sustained.)


Look at KEF specs on their website. They show the R7 speakers at +/- 0.3% THD from 100hz to 20khz @ 90dB measured at 1 meter. Those specs have been verified by several independent testers. I think that's still pretty good, though don't know how much it would deteriorate between that level and their 110dB max.
First of, I want to make clear that I think KEF are excellent speakers, and an excellent company. I place high value on accuracy and sound quality, and I think KEF delivers this in their product at reasonable prices, with great aesthetics as well. So there's my disclaimer.

You are correct that reference level is 85 dB...average, but with each speaker also being capable of hitting 105 dB peaks. .3% distortion at 90 dB at 1m is a very good showing, and I don't doubt KEF's specs in the slightest...they seem to be fairly transparent with their products. I would say an average listening distance would be around 12' for most folks, or 4 meters. So you double distance twice from 1 meter(1 to 2, 2 to 4). Each doubling of distance reduces SPL by 6 dB. So 90 dB at 1m = 78 dB at 4m. If we want to hit clean, low distortion peaks of 105 dB without compression or clipping our power source, we have to now double power for every 3 dB increase from the 78 dB. We have 27 dB to make up. That is nine doublings of power, or 512 watts assuming the speaker will handle that much power without distortion or compression. Now we can see why it isn't easy, in fact pretty much impossible, for average sensitivity hifi speakers to even approach clean, uncompressed reference level playback. Or even 10 below reference for that matter. I often feel like my own system is uncomfortably loud by -15 or so, maybe -10 on some quieter films. However, I also believe this isn't just from the sheer loudness, but also from the lack of clarity due to distortion and compression kicking in that makes things sound harsh and uncomfortable. I've been in extremely well equipped home theaters where reference level was not AT ALL uncomfortably loud..just crystal clear, dynamic, powerful. In fact, easier to listen to than my system at -10(with Hsu bookshelf speakers).

As a test, I will be taking FR and distortion measurements in room on my current Hsu bookshelf speakers which are rated at 88dB efficiency, although an independent review I saw put them at 86 dB. I'm building a pair of DIYSG speakers that are 94dB efficient(98 for center) and rated for more power than my AVR can supply, so I will compare output and distortion between the DIY and the Hsu. I think it will be a fun and interesting test.
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post #17220 of 18994 Old 03-29-2019, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ibrewmination View Post
The Marantz had set all my speakers to small, fortunately. So I didn't need to adjust there.


I turned off dynamic eq, that one that's supposed to "prevent bass from travelling through walls", and auto night listening.


When listening to Portishead, it was a streaming FLAC file from TIDAL. Does the receiver not automatically switch to two-channel when listening to music. I don't think music was coming from either the rears or ceilings, but I DO think it was coming from the sub.


Good to know. I just had remembered seeing a video on balancing the volume of the bass first, and then a buddy at work who has the Marantz 6012 told me about it <Audyssey> directing him to adjust the bass dB to 75 (as Audyssey measured it) before running the test cycles. It never instructed me to do that, so was wondering if I missed a step. I suppose I could look in the manual again.
You'll need to switch manually from surround to stereo and other listening modes. That's been the case for every AVR I've ever owned. If you don't want the sub on listen in direct or pure direct mode which will disable the sub and any processing. You may also want to experiment with positioning of both sub and speakers. As I've discovered since joining this forum, proper spacing, positioning and calibration are very important to getting the best out of your speakers. Like starting out in most hobbies there is a lot learning and effort involved which can be fun, but also frustrating at times. Don't be afraid to ask questions and advise in the general speaker forum. There are a lot of very knowledgeable people there to answer your questions and guide you through it. There is no such thing as a stupid question.....We've all been there.
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Bedroom: Kef Q100 ,JBL Loft 20, Bic F-12, Denon AVR-S710W, PS3, 32" Insigna LED.
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