KEF Owners Thread - Page 583 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17461 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by BjornK View Post
Well if you want me to believe one person just because he has a Dr title ahead of throusands of reviews & tests including every single audio/video related magazine & website I need just a little bit more than his word that he's done double blind tests that proves he's right. If he's a real scientist he should have published all his data publically, otherwise it's just another unproven opinion.


He has. As most of his work was for the Canadian government.


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post #17462 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by facke02 View Post
You are correct, it is a XQ50c. The 202/2c wouldn't fit in my WAF allowed area...


How does it mesh with the 203/2s? My XQ40s work surprisingly well in multichannel music with the 205/2 and 202/2c. I don’t notice any tonal difference. Of course I would love to replace them with 203/2s but can’t justify. I will note that the 202/2c is amazing, it works great for multichannel music and movies.


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Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650.
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post #17463 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by BjornK View Post
Very nice looking theater! Great choice of pj as well, I have the much older JVC RS20 model, I've been wondering how much of a difference there is between mine and your several generations newer model.. For one thing I don't think mine would have the Lumens to produce a punchy 150" image! Your theater actually looks pretty close to what I'm imagining my dedicated HT room to look like when it's done





So just like we're planning to do as well! Would love to see more pics of how you did your second row seating, pj & equipment area.
Thanks, pictures below. I have put in 1k hours on the pj in 8 months with 95% of it on low lamp and never had brightness issue. I can make it better by painting the ceiling but planning for some acoustic treatment. Let me know if you need any specific pictures. I build the raiser as three boxes with 2x8 and 1" plywood board. Still have the option to fill them up with insulation.
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post #17464 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post
How does it mesh with the 203/2s? My XQ40s work surprisingly well in multichannel music with the 205/2 and 202/2c. I don’t notice any tonal difference. Of course I would love to replace them with 203/2s but can’t justify. I will note that the 202/2c is amazing, it works great for multichannel music and movies.


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The XQ50C actually works very well with the 203/2s. No tonal difference that I can hear. Would love to have the 202/2c just because. Toying with the idea of getting a pair LS50s for surround duty. Currently have in ceilings that are ok but not optimal. Would use them as Atmos speakers with the LS50s. One can dream.

Ken

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post #17465 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by facke02 View Post
The XQ50C actually works very well with the 203/2s. No tonal difference that I can hear. Would love to have the 202/2c just because. Toying with the idea of getting a pair LS50s for surround duty. Currently have in ceilings that are ok but not optimal. Would use them as Atmos speakers with the LS50s. One can dream.


I believe the LS50s would work extremely well as surrounds in your system. “Mini-Reference”


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post #17466 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
I would suggest the best move right now would be to bite the bullet and grab a Q600c while they're still available at about 40% off list. It would be the best compromise as it's LF driver (and matching ABR) is of similar size to your Q80's. You might even find a used one on eBay, US Audiomart or other source. It would likely be harder to find the closer-in-age matching center speakers Q95c, though I do see the higher-level Reference Model 90 and Model 100 center speakers more often than Q95c. I got my Reference Model 100 for a little over $100 (shipped) and it's quite good.
Thanks for the advice. I'm found a Model 100 from a local guy for $100. Is that a fair price??? I can get it this week if we agree on price.
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post #17467 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by carlosinseattle View Post
Thanks for the advice. I'm found a Model 100 from a local guy for $100. Is that a fair price??? I can get it this week if we agree on price.
I believe that's what KenM paid for his so I believe it's a reasonable asking price. You can always try to haggle and get it cheaper.

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post #17468 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by kjack99 View Post
Thanks, pictures below. I have put in 1k hours on the pj in 8 months with 95% of it on low lamp and never had brightness issue. I can make it better by painting the ceiling but planning for some acoustic treatment. Let me know if you need any specific pictures. I build the raiser as three boxes with 2x8 and 1" plywood board. Still have the option to fill them up with insulation.
How do you like the Q950's?

How would you describe their sound signature? (bass, bright? rolled off highs? mids etc)

thanks

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Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300
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post #17469 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
Quality of the photos aren't the best, but here goes. Yes I know...need to clean up the wires.
get some wiremold!!! lol also check https://www.primecables.ca for an power extension cable for you TV

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C / Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf, SX6, XL5F/ Mirage M-190 / DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-II
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post #17470 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by thedonovanz View Post
OK Ken I will bite on your request for a system photo. Mine is a 7.1 with KEF Reference speakers and a rock and roll pit bull up front. The surrounds are four KEF LS50. Sub is an SVS SB13-Plus. It is a small room, at only 13X15 with a high vaulted cathedral ceiling, but it is all mine. I can close the French doors and shut out the world. No popcorn machine. No pool table. No bar. No wife. But, plenty of audio through a Krell Foundation processor and a nine channel Integra amp out to these glorious KEF speakers.
At first i was like WHO THE [email protected]@ USES LS50's AS SURROUNDS!!! then i clicked the next picture... OH!!! ok

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C / Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf, SX6, XL5F/ Mirage M-190 / DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-II
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post #17471 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 12:01 PM
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get some wiremold!!! lol also check https://www.primecables.ca for an power extension cable for you TV
Already ordered an extension from Amazon. I have the staple gun and zipties, just need to find the time to get it done.
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post #17472 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post
I believe the LS50s would work extremely well as surrounds in your system. “Mini-Reference”


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I like Mini-Reference... They would be right behind the MLP (inches) and not sure how well that would work.

Ken

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post #17473 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by carlosinseattle View Post
Thanks for the advice. I'm found a Model 100 from a local guy for $100. Is that a fair price??? I can get it this week if we agree on price.
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I believe that's what KenM paid for his so I believe it's a reasonable asking price. You can always try to haggle and get it cheaper.
Yes, plus the $15 (US funds) for shipping. Well worth the spend, and GREAT center speaker for the money!

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
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post #17474 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 03:07 PM
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Here is my main system... Description is in the signature.
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1. Samsung UN55MU7000, Yamaha A2070, KEF R700, R200c, 2x Kube 10b
2. Panasonic 50" (plasma), Yamaha A550, KEF R300s, Q100s, Kube 12b.
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post #17475 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
Many of Dr. Toole's studies are published in the AES site and are peer-reviewed, anyone in the audio world can run similar studies to verify the results. Also, KEF agrees with their approach to speaker design and their measurement philosophy, you can see in the latest R series and Reference whitepapers that they use the "spinorama" measurement format. As far as sighted vs blind tests, Dr. Olive(I know another Dr in front of his name....) was part of a pretty good study that compared the identical speakers with the same listeners and showed how different preference ratings are sighted vs blind, here's the link: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/0...o-product.html

I'm not sure why people wouldn't want the science on what kind of speakers most people prefer and whether expensive cables or amps make much difference in the sound, I mean I don't know about anyone else but I'd like to save money on things like speaker cables if I know lamp cord will sound just as good.

Completely agree that this is an important topic, we all spend a lot of money on our audio/video equipment so regardless of price range it should be in everyone's interest to know what you should spend your money on, which is why it's so strange that there is so little factual information and discussion around it.


Thanks for the link, interesting read, especially the comments section, but really it's from a 10 year old article, that in turn references a 25 year old test (!), there really has to be far more recent tests than that done in the last year or so, and again no data whatsoever from the study, and basically nothing about how the test was conducted, all we get is a tiny chart of listener preferences, that really says nothing about what is correct/better. For all we can see from that, the sighted test could be the more correct one, and the blind test could be wrong, who's to say? One thing I've noticed with these little charts they display is that the blind tests always have far less differences between in this case the tested speakers than the sighted tests. Does that mean the speakers actually sound more similar, or that when people are tested blind have no visual cues to tell them apart, as they do in a sighted test? And why the enormous differences in the blind tests with different speaker placements, and there's no reasoning or explanation in the article why that is. A couple of those speakers get their rating HALVED from being in a different position, which really makes no sense unless they knowingly tried to make the speaker sound as bad as possible in one position, but again there's no explanation in the article one way or the other.



It's also strange in these speaker blind tests that supposedly all test subjects completely agree on the overall ranking of the speakers, which makes no sense when in the real world people have completely different ears & taste in sound & music genres and some prefer speakers with a completely different sound than others, a speaker that sounds great to you may sound like complete junk to me, which is why we have so many different speaker brands with completely different sound signatures.



Also, why is it that all of these blind tests are apparently done by Harman. Like this test for example, and 3 out of 4 speakers were Harman speakers. Not a very broad impartial test now is it? Blind tests like these should be performed by an outside impartial 3rd party with no financial gain from the outcome, I would be far more likely to trust tests made with forum members on avsforum, posting all relevant data for everyone to see and compare/verify.



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Originally Posted by modenacart View Post
He has. As most of his work was for the Canadian government.

Ok that's great, link please. If we can't read it, understand it & verify it, it's useless.

HT: Stewart 100" 2.35:1 Screen, JVC DLA-RS20 PJ, Kef Reference 205 Front + 202c Center + 201 Back Surround + 208 Subwoofer & Q2DS Side Surround, Denon AVR-3808, Panasonic DMP-BDT320, Roku Ultra, APC UPS, PS3 & PS4, Logitech Driving Force GT Wheel
LR: Panasonic TC-P50UT50 50" Plasma, Kef Q15 Front + Q95c Center, Unknown Boston in-ceiling Surround, Yamaha DSP-A3090, Xbox 360, Denon DVD-2930ci
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post #17476 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BjornK View Post
Completely agree that this is an important topic, we all spend a lot of money on our audio/video equipment so regardless of price range it should be in everyone's interest to know what you should spend your money on, which is why it's so strange that there is so little factual information and discussion around it.


Thanks for the link, interesting read, especially the comments section, but really it's from a 10 year old article, that in turn references a 25 year old test (!), there really has to be far more recent tests than that done in the last year or so, and again no data whatsoever from the study, and basically nothing about how the test was conducted, all we get is a tiny chart of listener preferences, that really says nothing about what is correct/better. For all we can see from that, the sighted test could be the more correct one, and the blind test could be wrong, who's to say? One thing I've noticed with these little charts they display is that the blind tests always have far less differences between in this case the tested speakers than the sighted tests. Does that mean the speakers actually sound more similar, or that when people are tested blind have no visual cues to tell them apart, as they do in a sighted test? And why the enormous differences in the blind tests with different speaker placements, and there's no reasoning or explanation in the article why that is. A couple of those speakers get their rating HALVED from being in a different position, which really makes no sense unless they knowingly tried to make the speaker sound as bad as possible in one position, but again there's no explanation in the article one way or the other.



It's also strange in these speaker blind tests that supposedly all test subjects completely agree on the overall ranking of the speakers, which makes no sense when in the real world people have completely different ears & taste in sound & music genres and some prefer speakers with a completely different sound than others, a speaker that sounds great to you may sound like complete junk to me, which is why we have so many different speaker brands with completely different sound signatures.



Also, why is it that all of these blind tests are apparently done by Harman. Like this test for example, and 3 out of 4 speakers were Harman speakers. Not a very broad impartial test now is it? Blind tests like these should be performed by an outside impartial 3rd party with no financial gain from the outcome, I would be far more likely to trust tests made with forum members on avsforum, posting all relevant data for everyone to see and compare/verify.






Ok that's great, link please. If we can't read it, understand it & verify it, it's useless.


After reading your response to Aaron, there is no reason to continue this discussion.


-To be an audiophile you must abandon all research and science.
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post #17477 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kjack99 View Post
Thanks, pictures below. I have put in 1k hours on the pj in 8 months with 95% of it on low lamp and never had brightness issue. I can make it better by painting the ceiling but planning for some acoustic treatment. Let me know if you need any specific pictures. I build the raiser as three boxes with 2x8 and 1" plywood board. Still have the option to fill them up with insulation.

Thanks for the pics! Looks great! I also run 100% on low lamp mode, gives me (even) better black levels & lower fan noise, since we right now have the pj close to where we sit. I bet you get pretty stunning black levels with that new gen JVC and walls painted a bit darker. Would be cool to see a comparison.


Thanks for the info on the raiser as well, so a 1" plywood board is enough to make that entire 2nd row completely sturdy, or do you have additional supports under?


One thing I saw from your first pictures is it looked like you've done sort of an equipment room/area? That's something we've been planning on doing, but trying to figure out a way to make it hidden, yet easily accessible & remote friendly and haven't quite figured out how to do that so was wondering if you've done something like that?

HT: Stewart 100" 2.35:1 Screen, JVC DLA-RS20 PJ, Kef Reference 205 Front + 202c Center + 201 Back Surround + 208 Subwoofer & Q2DS Side Surround, Denon AVR-3808, Panasonic DMP-BDT320, Roku Ultra, APC UPS, PS3 & PS4, Logitech Driving Force GT Wheel
LR: Panasonic TC-P50UT50 50" Plasma, Kef Q15 Front + Q95c Center, Unknown Boston in-ceiling Surround, Yamaha DSP-A3090, Xbox 360, Denon DVD-2930ci
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post #17478 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 04:48 PM
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I'm shopping for some in wall/in ceiling speakers and I'm looking at KEF on A4L. It's hard to find the differences between the speakers. Are there any guides to the differences between Ci160CS, Ci160.2QS, Ci160SL, Ci160.2CL?
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post #17479 of 18853 Old 04-23-2019, 05:11 PM
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I'm shopping for some in wall/in ceiling speakers and I'm looking at KEF on A4L. It's hard to find the differences between the speakers. Are there any guides to the differences between Ci160CS, Ci160.2QS, Ci160SL, Ci160.2CL?
Yes, there are significant differences in design and subtle differences in sound, but since most are discontinued models it's hard to find technical info. Some, like the Ci160.2QS have a small 16mm tweeter that would struggle behind the grille in a larger room. Others that have a 19mm tweeter (the Ci160QR that's not on your list) are still current product and really are better. Among the ones you listed, those with the thin bezel would be newer and arguably better.

If there was any way you could up the budget to get the round Ci160QR, you would not regret it.

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
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post #17480 of 18853 Old 04-24-2019, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
There are a couple members of this forum who use a Q600c together with Q100's as main L-R speakers. Considering that a center speaker gets most of the dialogue (and quite a bit of other audio) in a movie or show, it's why a larger center speaker works so well.

The Q600c is a true 3-way speaker too, as that one, the Q200c, and the long-discontinued Q800ds are the only 3-way speakers in the 2011-2017 Q series. They are also a sealed speaker using an Acoustic Bass Resonator (passive radiator) instead of a rear port. The newer Q650c is wired as a 2-1/2 way speaker, meaning the woofer also gets some of the midrange signal and the crossover network only has one crossover point. The Q650c does have other improvements and a good 2-1/2 way speaker can be excellent. That one would be nice to have should the Q100's ever move to surround duty and something like the Q750's take their place.
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Originally Posted by wardman1 View Post
Thanks - is the Q650C connected with standard wiring, or do I have to do anything special (noting crossovers on the back etc...). I'm leaning Q600C, but is the $50 extra worth it for Q650C.
Thanks - KEF actually convinced me that if I could get a Q600C new, get it for a match. Pulled the trigger! Now watching for a set of Q300 new/used.
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post #17481 of 18853 Old 04-24-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
Yes, there are significant differences in design and subtle differences in sound, but since most are discontinued models it's hard to find technical info. Some, like the Ci160.2QS have a small 16mm tweeter that would struggle behind the grille in a larger room. Others that have a 19mm tweeter (the Ci160QR that's not on your list) are still current product and really are better. Among the ones you listed, those with the thin bezel would be newer and arguably better.

If there was any way you could up the budget to get the round Ci160QR, you would not regret it.
Thanks for the info!
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post #17482 of 18853 Old 04-30-2019, 02:43 PM
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KEF Reference One + Parasound A51 or Classe CA-5200?

I want to get some more dynamics from my KEF Reference Ones and am currently feeding them with a Rotel RMB-1075 (120 watts x 5). Would an upgrade to a Parasound A51 or Classe CA-5200 help?

Any thoughts on either of these amplifier upgrade options? I wonder which would be a better fit with the speakers. Preamplifier is an Anthem AVM-60.

Thanks!
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post #17483 of 18853 Old 04-30-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by anilpani View Post
I want to get some more dynamics from my KEF Reference Ones and am currently feeding them with a Rotel RMB-1075 (120 watts x 5). Would an upgrade to a Parasound A51 or Classe CA-5200 help?

Any thoughts on either of these amplifier upgrade options? I wonder which would be a better fit with the speakers. Preamplifier is an Anthem AVM-60.

Thanks!
I would think either is a step up, though the Classe would be the better overall match.
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KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
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post #17484 of 18853 Old 04-30-2019, 02:45 PM
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Anyone have any experience with the LSX? Trying to figure out these vs the LS50.

Any input would be appreciated. (would be used for 2 channel music and hooking up to a TV in a family room which is roughly 10'x20'x8')

thanks!
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post #17485 of 18853 Old 04-30-2019, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jer181 View Post
Anyone have any experience with the LSX? Trying to figure out these vs the LS50.



Any input would be appreciated. (would be used for 2 channel music and hooking up to a TV in a family room which is roughly 10'x20'x8')



thanks!
For that big a room, ls50 are barely enough and that too with a sub. So lsx will be too underpowered.
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post #17486 of 18853 Old 04-30-2019, 02:56 PM
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Anyone here use the ci5160 for a medium sized dedicated home theater? How are they for movies? This isn't for critical music listening.

Video: JVC RS620/X9500 projector, Stewart ST130 screen, Panasonic ub820 UHD player
Audio: Anthem AVM60 preamp, Anthem MCA525 amp, B&K Reference 125.7 amp
Subs: dual SVS PC-12 cylinders
Speakers: RBH SV-661R and SV-661CR fronts, Jamo 626k4 side/rear surrounds, DefTech DI6.5R heights
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post #17487 of 18853 Old 04-30-2019, 03:22 PM
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Anyone here use the ci5160 for a medium sized dedicated home theater? How are they for movies? This isn't for critical music listening.
Killer speakers! Very capable of critical listening it you wanted to as well.

Define "medium sized home theater"?

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
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post #17488 of 18853 Old 04-30-2019, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Anyone here use the ci5160 for a medium sized dedicated home theater? How are they for movies? This isn't for critical music listening.
Killer speakers! Very capable of critical listening it you wanted to as well.

Define "medium sized home theater"?
3000 cubic feet. 14x19 with 12 foot ceilings

Video: JVC RS620/X9500 projector, Stewart ST130 screen, Panasonic ub820 UHD player
Audio: Anthem AVM60 preamp, Anthem MCA525 amp, B&K Reference 125.7 amp
Subs: dual SVS PC-12 cylinders
Speakers: RBH SV-661R and SV-661CR fronts, Jamo 626k4 side/rear surrounds, DefTech DI6.5R heights
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3000 cubic feet. 14x19 with 12 foot ceilings
Certainly big enough for them, though you could get away with the Ci3160-THX2 as well. Any larger you'd definitely want the larger ones.

Will you have subwoofers in play too?

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
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post #17490 of 18853 Old 04-30-2019, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
3000 cubic feet. 14x19 with 12 foot ceilings
Certainly big enough for them, though you could get away with the Ci3160-THX2 as well. Any larger you'd definitely want the larger ones.

Will you have subwoofers in play too?
Yes, I have two SVS pc-12 plus subs
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Video: JVC RS620/X9500 projector, Stewart ST130 screen, Panasonic ub820 UHD player
Audio: Anthem AVM60 preamp, Anthem MCA525 amp, B&K Reference 125.7 amp
Subs: dual SVS PC-12 cylinders
Speakers: RBH SV-661R and SV-661CR fronts, Jamo 626k4 side/rear surrounds, DefTech DI6.5R heights
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