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post #18091 of 18840 Old 07-02-2019, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post
I would be cautious about cheap amps. I tried Emotiva’s low end mono-blocks some years ago and found for 2 channel I preferred my AVR without them. For multichannel I did get some improvement but returned them.




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Yeah....Also considering a Marantz MM7025. Started a thread in the amp section to see what they advise.

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post #18092 of 18840 Old 07-03-2019, 12:30 AM
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Just installed my R500 wow what an upgrade from my Q100 , right now the center is a Q200C i will see if i can find a R200C because the finish on the R Series is gorgeous , the R500 driven by my Onkyo TX-NR818 with seems to be a good match.
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post #18093 of 18840 Old 07-03-2019, 06:13 PM
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Just installed my R500 wow what an upgrade from my Q100 , right now the center is a Q200C i will see if i can find a R200C because the finish on the R Series is gorgeous , the R500 driven by my Onkyo TX-NR818 with seems to be a good match.
I'm currently running a Q200c with LS50's and it's working out well so far. There maybe be more of a noticeable difference with the R series however tracking down an R200C could be a challenge. You may end up having to go with an R2C which would be aesthetically mismatched anyway.
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post #18094 of 18840 Old 07-03-2019, 07:17 PM
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There are some R200c to be found, like this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/KEF-R200c-C...AAAOSwgXFdGrGo

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post #18095 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 07:47 AM
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I'm currently running a Q200c with LS50's and it's working out well so far. There maybe be more of a noticeable difference with the R series however tracking down an R200C could be a challenge. You may end up having to go with an R2C which would be aesthetically mismatched anyway.


Wouldn’t the R2c be the best match short of the Reference 2c?


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post #18096 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 08:19 AM
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Wouldn’t the R2c be the best match short of the Reference 2c?


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If you can't find an R200c, the R2C would be your next best option. You could also just keep the Q200c for HT use as they are timbre matched. Personally I find the LS50 's to be a noticeable step up from the Q100's and having the Q200c (aside from aesthetics) to be working out quite well. It would be a different discussion if I listened to multi-channel music.

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post #18097 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 10:18 AM
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Ok.....The more research I do the more confused I am.

There seems to be 2 camps when it comes to adding an external amp. Those who say that $400 power amp will outperform a $1000 AVR hands down and those who say I'd need to spend >$1500 to see an improvement. Then of course those who say a mid level AVR is plenty. Then I read that with an AVR as a pre-amp with seperate power amp may not really make a difference. I'm calling on your personal experience with AVR + Separates (not necessarily a brand debate) and if I'd really benefit in my price range. I know there are better and more expensive amps available.

Amps I'm looking at.
Emotiva A-300/500 $500-600(CDN). Can buy today
Marantz MM-7025 $800(CDN) "B" stock (in my cart, but not checked out) can buy today.
NAD C 275BEE. Most expensive option that I'd have to buy on credit so will only go this route is it's really necessary.
Denon X3400. Use what I already have. Can get an Anthem PVA-2 for about the same price as the NAD.

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post #18098 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
Ok.....The more research I do the more confused I am.

There seems to be 2 camps when it comes to adding an external amp. Those who say that $400 power amp will outperform a $1000 AVR hands down and those who say I'd need to spend >$1500 to see an improvement. Then of course those who say a mid level AVR is plenty. Then I read that with an AVR as a pre-amp with seperate power amp may not really make a difference. I'm calling on your personal experience with AVR + Separates (not necessarily a brand debate) and if I'd really benefit in my price range. I know there are better and more expensive amps available.

Amps I'm looking at.
Emotiva A-300/500 $500-600(CDN). Can buy today
Marantz MM-7025 $800(CDN) "B" stock (in my cart, but not checked out) can buy today.
NAD C 275BEE. Most expensive option that I'd have to buy on credit so will only go this route is it's really necessary.
Denon X3400. Use what I already have. Can get an Anthem PVA-2 for about the same price as the NAD.
Stick with what you have! Don't make a change for months or a year. Only then when you really know well what your LS50's sound like should you try something else. In my case, going from a Bluesound Powernode 2 to the NAD Masters M10 did make a difference, but I would not call it profound. I'm figuring the difference was primarily the DAC and the rest lies in the better-quality of the amplifier section.

That said, not all watts are created equal. I know from actually auditioning that Naim Uniti Atom at 40w/ch can easily get as loud as my M10 at 100w/ch. If I had more funds, I would jump all over a Naim Uniti Star!
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post #18099 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 10:51 AM
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Stick with what you have! Don't make a change for months or a year. Only then when you really know well what your LS50's sound like should you try something else. In my case, going from a Bluesound Powernode 2 to the NAD Masters M10 did make a difference, but I would not call it profound. I'm figuring the difference was primarily the DAC and the rest lies in the better-quality of the amplifier section.

That said, not all watts are created equal. I know from actually auditioning that Naim Uniti Atom at 40w/ch can easily get as loud as my M10 at 100w/ch. If I had more funds, I would jump all over a Naim Uniti Star!
Interesting! I was leaning towards the Marantz, but if you don't think I'd get better detail and dynamics with it I'll take your advice and just keep using my AVR. I won't spend the money if I don't have to.
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post #18100 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 11:01 AM
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Interesting! I was leaning towards the Marantz, but if you don't think I'd get better detail and dynamics with it I'll take your advice and just keep using my AVR. I won't spend the money if I don't have to.

I would definitely just stick to what you have, you're not in a huge space that needs to be cranking out crazy loud volume. Save the hundreds/thousands of dollars for when you're ready to move up to a nice 65" OLED or something

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post #18101 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 11:57 AM
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I would definitely just stick to what you have, you're not in a huge space that needs to be cranking out crazy loud volume. Save the hundreds/thousands of dollars for when you're ready to move up to a nice 65" OLED or something
Thank you and @KenM10759 for the input. I'd being going back and forth between just using what I have and adding an amp. You guys just saved me about $900.

They do sound quite nice as is so will just sit back and enjoy!

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post #18102 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 12:10 PM
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Ok.....The more research I do the more confused I am.



There seems to be 2 camps when it comes to adding an external amp. Those who say that $400 power amp will outperform a $1000 AVR hands down and those who say I'd need to spend >$1500 to see an improvement. Then of course those who say a mid level AVR is plenty. Then I read that with an AVR as a pre-amp with seperate power amp may not really make a difference. I'm calling on your personal experience with AVR + Separates (not necessarily a brand debate) and if I'd really benefit in my price range. I know there are better and more expensive amps available.



Amps I'm looking at.

Emotiva A-300/500 $500-600(CDN). Can buy today

Marantz MM-7025 $800(CDN) "B" stock (in my cart, but not checked out) can buy today.

NAD C 275BEE. Most expensive option that I'd have to buy on credit so will only go this route is it's really necessary.

Denon X3400. Use what I already have. Can get an Anthem PVA-2 for about the same price as the NAD.
It will be helpful if people describe the amp capabilities or specifications rather than its cost to define what works the best.
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post #18103 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 12:14 PM
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[quote=pase22;58257720]Thank you and @KenM10759 for the input. I'd being going back and forth between just using what I have and adding an amp. You guys just saved me about $900.



They do sound quite nice as is so will just sit back and enjoy![/quote

@KenM10759 is always a voice of reason for all of us. His recommendations are based on logic and experience.
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post #18104 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 02:32 PM
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It will be helpful if people describe the amp capabilities or specifications rather than its cost to define what works the best.
Emotiva BasX A-300 = 2 channel @ 150w/ch
Emotiva BasX A-500 = 5 channel @ 110w/ch
Marantz MM7025 = 2 channel @ 140w/ch
NAD C275BEE = 2 channel @ 150w/ch

I don't know about the Emotiva or Marantz, but am very familiar with the C275BBE from NAD. That one can be very underrated as it has much higher dynamic power ratings. Marantz tends to be a little (10%) underrated for the nominal rating, but doesn't have nearly the dynamic power of the NAD.

I've seen some reports of the Emotiva's failing, but purely anecdotal evidence there.

The main thing that kept me from buying a power amp to this point is that I so very rarely run my AVR (NAD T758v3) anywhere near its max. In my two-channel office system, I had expected to go with separate pre-amp/DAC and power amp but was frustrated to find I'd need other equipment (MiniDSP, UMke1, and REW app) to get control over response. NAD hit a home run for me with the M10 because I got all I wanted and needed in one little box.

There may still be a day when I add a 5 or 7 channel power amp to the living room setup, just to take the load off the receiver. I might add a second sub first though, as I have a seat or two in the room that get very little bass. Fortunately, rare is the day I have anyone sitting there.

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post #18105 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
Emotiva BasX A-300 = 2 channel @ 150w/ch
Emotiva BasX A-500 = 5 channel @ 110w/ch
Marantz MM7025 = 2 channel @ 140w/ch
NAD C275BEE = 2 channel @ 150w/ch

I don't know about the Emotiva or Marantz, but am very familiar with the C275BBE from NAD. That one can be very underrated as it has much higher dynamic power ratings. Marantz tends to be a little (10%) underrated for the nominal rating, but doesn't have nearly the dynamic power of the NAD.

I've seen some reports of the Emotiva's failing, but purely anecdotal evidence there.

The main thing that kept me from buying a power amp to this point is that I so very rarely run my AVR (NAD T758v3) anywhere near its max. In my two-channel office system, I had expected to go with separate pre-amp/DAC and power amp but was frustrated to find I'd need other equipment (MiniDSP, UMke1, and REW app) to get control over response. NAD hit a home run for me with the M10 because I got all I wanted and needed in one little box.

There may still be a day when I add a 5 or 7 channel power amp to the living room setup, just to take the load off the receiver. I might add a second sub first though, as I have a seat or two in the room that get very little bass. Fortunately, rare is the day I have anyone sitting there.
What got me going initially is that I kept reading several reviews that mention LS50's really need good amplification to open up. Had me questioning if my Denon was good enough. Yes I've had stereo amps and have had multi-channel receivers, but never had both together so not much practical experience. Had an HK (equivalent to the HK 3700) with Cerwin Vega (equivalent to SL-12') so didn't need much to blow the roof of back then.

Emotiva did have some issues (from what I've read in other forums) early on, but have since been reputable.

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post #18106 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
Emotiva BasX A-300 = 2 channel @ 150w/ch
Emotiva BasX A-500 = 5 channel @ 110w/ch
Marantz MM7025 = 2 channel @ 140w/ch
NAD C275BEE = 2 channel @ 150w/ch

I don't know about the Emotiva or Marantz, but am very familiar with the C275BBE from NAD. That one can be very underrated as it has much higher dynamic power ratings. Marantz tends to be a little (10%) underrated for the nominal rating, but doesn't have nearly the dynamic power of the NAD.

I've seen some reports of the Emotiva's failing, but purely anecdotal evidence there.

The main thing that kept me from buying a power amp to this point is that I so very rarely run my AVR (NAD T758v3) anywhere near its max. In my two-channel office system, I had expected to go with separate pre-amp/DAC and power amp but was frustrated to find I'd need other equipment (MiniDSP, UMke1, and REW app) to get control over response. NAD hit a home run for me with the M10 because I got all I wanted and needed in one little box.

There may still be a day when I add a 5 or 7 channel power amp to the living room setup, just to take the load off the receiver. I might add a second sub first though, as I have a seat or two in the room that get very little bass. Fortunately, rare is the day I have anyone sitting there.
For those looking at getting Dirac into their system another option is the upcoming Arcam SA30 integrated amp with MQA, Dirac, 120 watts class G amplification, and other features of course. I'm strongly leaning towards this but am also considering the NAD C658 plus really good external amp (and an Anthem STR with ARC is a slight possibility). I'm very used to and like the Yamaha sound signature (my R3's sound really really good "just" with my A2080 AVR) and I also really like YPAO room correction. So Dirac and a 2-channel oriented integrated amp should be a great improvement. We will see. :-)

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post #18107 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 04:50 PM
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Does anyone know of a good reference they can link to of a direct comparison between the R5 and the R7? I'm having trouble picking between the two, and I'm unfortunately in a situation where there is little chance of hearing them both in the same setting prior to when I'm looking to purchase.
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post #18108 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 04:58 PM
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Does anyone know of a good reference they can link to of a direct comparison between the R5 and the R7? I'm having trouble picking between the two, and I'm unfortunately in a situation where there is little chance of hearing them both in the same setting prior to when I'm looking to purchase.
I haven't seen a direct comparison but you can draw a pretty good conclusion by looking at the measurements in the R series whitepaper. All the new R series have identical midrange/tweeter UniQ arrays and crossover at 400Hz so it's a good bet that they will all integrate with each other very well. The only difference is going to be bass response due to driver size. So you have to evaluate your listening levels, if you're like most people who maybe listen about 85 db max at your listening position, the R5's will be fine but if you like to rock out at 90+ db then the R7 might be a better bet.

Of course, this all depends on how you handle bass management. If you're talking 2 Channel then it's R7 no question but if you use a sub or 2 then I'm sure the R7 isn't going to make a difference compared to the R5. For the record, I've heard the R3 and R7 and they have similar sound signatures, I really think your bass needs are all that matters when deciding on which model you want of the new R series.
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post #18109 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SquareChaos View Post
Does anyone know of a good reference they can link to of a direct comparison between the R5 and the R7? I'm having trouble picking between the two, and I'm unfortunately in a situation where there is little chance of hearing them both in the same setting prior to when I'm looking to purchase.
I haven't seen a direct comparison but you can draw a pretty good conclusion by looking at the measurements in the R series whitepaper. All the new R series have identical midrange/tweeter UniQ arrays and crossover at 400Hz so it's a good bet that they will all integrate with each other very well. The only difference is going to be bass response due to driver size. So you have to evaluate your listening levels, if you're like most people who maybe listen about 85 db max at your listening position, the R5's will be fine but if you like to rock out at 90+ db then the R7 might be a better bet.

Of course, this all depends on how you handle bass management. If you're talking 2 Channel then it's R7 no question but if you use a sub or 2 then I'm sure the R7 isn't going to make a difference compared to the R7. For the record, I've heard the R3 and R7 and they have similar sound signatures, I really think your bass needs are all that matters when deciding on which model you want of the new R series.
This is similar to my thinking as well, I'll be running whichever I get in a home theater set up, but I'll often use them purely for music. I'm not certain it's entirely as simple as ''R7s are R5s with more bass' so I'm attempting to determine if that extra $1000 would have any ROI.

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post #18110 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 05:15 PM
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Does anyone know of a good reference they can link to of a direct comparison between the R5 and the R7? I'm having trouble picking between the two, and I'm unfortunately in a situation where there is little chance of hearing them both in the same setting prior to when I'm looking to purchase.
Aaron pretty much covered it. If you're doing a simple 2.0 with no sub the R700 will have better dynamics and depth with a little more low end extension. If you're adding a sub or 2 the R5's or even R3's would be fine since the sub(s) will be adding depth and low bass. Personally I prefer the smaller drivers (R5, LS50, Q550) for better detail and clarity at the expense of added bass, but that's what subs are for. YMMV

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post #18111 of 18840 Old 07-04-2019, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
Interesting! I was leaning towards the Marantz, but if you don't think I'd get better detail and dynamics with it I'll take your advice and just keep using my AVR. I won't spend the money if I don't have to.
talk to Dennis Murphy and Dave at ascend...my recollection is that Dennis see's this as severe diminishing returns..
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post #18112 of 18840 Old 07-05-2019, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Lp85253 View Post
talk to Dennis Murphy and Dave at ascend...my recollection is that Dennis see's this as severe diminishing returns..
I'll agree. I believe that what reaches our ears from our speakers in our room is probably 60% speaker, 30% room, 7% DAC, 2.95% amp, and 0.05% cables.
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KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
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post #18113 of 18840 Old 07-05-2019, 05:24 AM
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I'll agree. I believe that what reaches our ears from our speakers in our room is probably 60% speaker, 30% room, 7% DAC, 2.95% amp, and 0.05% cables.
Lol....love it.
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post #18114 of 18840 Old 07-05-2019, 07:41 AM
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Lol....love it.
Looking to but the LSX to replace my x300a, sitting on my desk.
I will have an Ethernet plugged into the LSX.
I have 100's of songs- 1T of music, stored on my pc.

I want to hook it up directly to my desktop pc and play music files on the pc (J River).
Oddly, it lacks the USB connector I now use. It has a 3.5 plug, but is that capable of CD and better audio?
Optical? Can my pc feed an optical signal to the speakers?
Can my pc stream to the speakers? (Yeah, I don't understand this!)

Opinions appreciated.
Thx.
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post #18115 of 18840 Old 07-05-2019, 08:20 AM
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Looking to but the LSX to replace my x300a, sitting on my desk.
I will have an Ethernet plugged into the LSX.
I have 100's of songs- 1T of music, stored on my pc.

I want to hook it up directly to my desktop pc and play music files on the pc (J River).
Oddly, it lacks the USB connector I now use. It has a 3.5 plug, but is that capable of CD and better audio?
Optical? Can my pc feed an optical signal to the speakers?
Can my pc stream to the speakers? (Yeah, I don't understand this!)

Opinions appreciated.
Thx.
The TOSlink optical input on the LSX is the only one capable of the full 24bit/192khz stream that the internal DAC can handle. I'd be very surprised if your PC doesn't have an optical out, especially if it's less than 10 years old. You didn't mention your PC's make & model.

The 3.5mm plug is for analog input, so you'd be using the DAC in your PC and then re-converting within the speakers as it needs a digital signal to use the speaker's internal DSP.

BTW, check out the new accessories KEF offers for the LSX, just added with the last couple of days.

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
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post #18116 of 18840 Old 07-05-2019, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
The TOSlink optical input on the LSX is the only one capable of the full 24bit/192khz stream that the internal DAC can handle. I'd be very surprised if your PC doesn't have an optical out, especially if it's less than 10 years old. You didn't mention your PC's make & model.



The 3.5mm plug is for analog input, so you'd be using the DAC in your PC and then re-converting within the speakers as it needs a digital signal to use the speaker's internal DSP.



BTW, check out the new accessories KEF offers for the LSX, just added with the last couple of days.
Wireless DLNA (48K/24) may be another option. Most people can not tell a difference between 48/24 and 96/24 (optical).
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post #18117 of 18840 Old 07-05-2019, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
The TOSlink optical input on the LSX is the only one capable of the full 24bit/192khz stream that the internal DAC can handle. I'd be very surprised if your PC doesn't have an optical out, especially if it's less than 10 years old. You didn't mention your PC's make & model.

The 3.5mm plug is for analog input, so you'd be using the DAC in your PC and then re-converting within the speakers as it needs a digital signal to use the speaker's internal DSP.

BTW, check out the new accessories KEF offers for the LSX, just added with the last couple of days.

My desktop pc is old and lacks an optical out.
So, I need a sound card that has one, and a bit of reading suggests I need one at any rate, to get the most from the LSX. I only need optical out and no processing. Any suggestions on shopping for one?

Last edited by smile; 07-05-2019 at 10:37 AM.
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post #18118 of 18840 Old 07-05-2019, 12:11 PM
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Before I started digging this rabbit hole, I wasn't listening to music very often, but as the quality of my components progress I find myself listening to more and more music as @KenM10759 warned me was likely to happen.

I've been tweeking both settings and positioning all week on the LS50's while they were burning in and think I'm pretty much there and I'm pretty sure they're fully broken in. I've been running a lot of different music on them, but mostly tool & Pink Floyd because they do have a lot of detail in their songs and it's actually relaxing...Tool relaxing, I know, go figure! Problem is I have a hard time listening to something else after an hour or two of Tool music. Anyway...The LS50 really bring out the small details that aren't as obvious to pick up on with the Q100's. The top end is smoother and bass seems more controlled. Drums and symbols are crisp with no overhang. You can hear each individual instrument with the vocals very clearly. The Q100's are very good speakers that I would recommend in a heartbeat, But the LS50 are a very clear step up. My only gripe is that they seem lifeless at lower volume which is main reason I was considering an external power amp.
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post #18119 of 18840 Old 07-05-2019, 12:18 PM
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Before I started digging this rabbit hole, I wasn't listening to music very often, but as the quality of my components progress I find myself listening to more and more music as @KenM10759 warned me was likely to happen.



I've been tweeking both settings and positioning all week on the LS50's while they were burning in and think I'm pretty much there and I'm pretty sure they're fully broken in. I've been running a lot of different music on them, but mostly tool & Pink Floyd because they do have a lot of detail in their songs and it's actually relaxing...Tool relaxing, I know, go figure! Problem is I have a hard time listening to something else after an hour or two of Tool music. Anyway...The LS50 really bring out the small details that aren't as obvious to pick up on with the Q100's. The top end is smoother and bass seems more controlled. Drums and symbols are crisp with no overhang. You can hear each individual instrument with the vocals very clearly. The Q100's are very good speakers that I would recommend in a heartbeat, But the LS50 are a very clear step up. My only gripe is that they seem lifeless at lower volume which is main reason I was considering an external power amp.
Lifeless at lower volumes... I think it may be because of Fletcher Munsen curve.

At low volumes our brains need more bass to feel that bass is there. Denon and many other amps have Dynamic EQ that automatically boosts bass as total volume goes down to compensates for that. Try that. It may help.
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post #18120 of 18840 Old 07-05-2019, 12:33 PM
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Lifeless at lower volumes... I think it may be because of Fletcher Munsen curve.

At low volumes our brains need more bass to feel that bass is there. Denon and many other amps have Dynamic EQ that automatically boosts bass as total volume goes down to compensates for that. Try that. It may help.
Works great for HT, but for music what sounds best, at least to me is L/R Bypass which is direct mode with sub on..more or less. Audyssey Flat is ok, but I like L/R Bypass best.
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