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post #18361 of 18415 Old 08-12-2019, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by poopiehead View Post
Modest home theatre set up planned for a small room. I wasn't happy with the Samsung Atmos bar and the Sonos was good but at the price I decided to go a traditional set up after finding deals for the following three items.

Marantz NR1609
Kef 3001SE speakers for the 5 speakers
Definitive SuperCube 4000 for the sub.

Given the small size for the LRC and surrounds, assume the Ci100QR is the correct match for Atmos ceiling speakers? Don't need to go bigger with the Ci160QR?

The big expense is wiring into the walls and repairing the damage for the ceiling.
That would be a really good setup for the environment you describe. However, I would be worried about the limitations in frequency response from 100mm (4") drivers in that application because of the distance from ceiling to listener. If you could possibly go with the Ci130QR instead, those would be a better fit.

If not, don't worry too much.

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post #18362 of 18415 Old 08-12-2019, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by poopiehead View Post
Modest home theatre set up planned for a small room. I wasn't happy with the Samsung Atmos bar and the Sonos was good but at the price I decided to go a traditional set up after finding deals for the following three items.

Marantz NR1609
Kef 3001SE speakers for the 5 speakers
Definitive SuperCube 4000 for the sub.

Given the small size for the LRC and surrounds, assume the Ci100QR is the correct match for Atmos ceiling speakers? Don't need to go bigger with the Ci160QR?

The big expense is wiring into the walls and repairing the damage for the ceiling.
That would be a really good setup for the environment you describe. However, I would be worried about the limitations in frequency response from 100mm (4") drivers in that application because of the distance from ceiling to listener. If you could possibly go with the Ci130QR instead, those would be a better fit.

If not, don't worry too much.
Thanks. Just don’t know Atmos that well and how much frequency range the ceiling really need.

I cross the current 3001se 5.1 at 110Hz.
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post #18363 of 18415 Old 08-12-2019, 04:45 PM
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Thanks. Just don’t know Atmos that well and how much frequency range the ceiling really need.

I cross the current 3001se 5.1 at 110Hz.
With the Ci100QR, cross them over at 120hz up to 200hz. You may find right around 150hz to be the sweet spot.

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post #18364 of 18415 Old 08-14-2019, 07:12 AM
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Just setup the avr-x4500h this morning here's a quick comparison vs the avr-x1400h.

1) first thing i immediately noticed is my Q750 are WAY brighter (not in a harsh way though) but the resolution really comes through. Is this because of the extra power, better dac, combination of everything? who knows but it's a definite improvement.

2) second thing i noticed is the Q750's mid bass boominess is gone , bass is slightly punchier but definitely tighter. This was more of a placement issue but because of my rooms placement limitation i can either choose between a small hint of boominess or 0% bass. It looks like audyssey XT32 is definitely doing a better job at taming those peaks. *note this was with audyssey reference, i'll test it with L/R bypass(my usual setting) tonight.

3) third, Imaging/soundtsage definitely improved, everything seems locked in. The Q750 really opened up with the x4500h.

4)My subwoofer resonance issues are gone \o/. This is what made me the happiest overall, you have no idea how irritating resonance can be until you've experienced it.

Speakers: KEF Q100 / Q300 / Q750 / Q650C, Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf / SX6 / XL5F, Mirage M-190 Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2), BIC H100-II Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, Denon AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501, Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Headphones: Philips SPH9500s, Audio Tech. ATH-M40x, Takstar Pro 82.
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post #18365 of 18415 Old 08-14-2019, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
Just setup the avr-x4500h this morning here's a quick comparison vs the avr-x1400h.

1) first thing i immediately noticed is my Q750 are WAY brighter (not in a harsh way though) but the resolution really comes through. Is this because of the extra power, better dac, combination of everything? who knows but it's a definite improvement.

2) second thing i noticed is the Q750's mid bass boominess is gone , bass is slightly punchier but definitely tighter. This was more of a placement issue but because of my rooms placement limitation i can either choose between a small hint of boominess or 0% bass. It looks like audyssey XT32 is definitely doing a better job at taming those peaks. *note this was with audyssey reference, i'll test it with L/R bypass(my usual setting) tonight.

3) third, Imaging/soundtsage definitely improved, everything seems locked in. The Q750 really opened up with the x4500h.

4)My subwoofer resonance issues are gone \o/. This is what made me the happiest overall, you have no idea how irritating resonance can be until you've experienced it.
I think Audyssey XT32 is mostly the difference you are noticing. The brightness is likely the difference between Audyssey Reference vs L/R Bypass. The difference in bass due to the greatly enhanced capabilities of XT32 in that area.

As for increased power, better DACs, might be easier to evaluate that with Audyssey bypassed.

For example, I went from the Yamaha RX-V375 to the RX-A2070 and the versions of YPAO went from most basic to best available. Yet I was never a fan of either for auto-EQ. So I set it PEQ Through, which disables all auto EQ and relies on my MiniDSP 2x4 HD for sub EQ.

The differences in sound between the two Yamahas, YPAO auto-EQ bypassed (just use it for setting levels and distances automatically) were indeed much punchier and more refined bass, and more detailed mids and highs and a cohesiveness to the surround sound and much lower noise/better ambient and low level sound handling.

So, better amplification, DACs, etc can improve sound quality even without differences in auto EQ, but it does seem like the different versions of Audyssey in your case are definitely a major factor.

In my case, while YPAO is much more capable on the 2070 than the 375, it still sounded much better bypassed than in the flat or natural modes.

I do need sub EQ via the MiniDSP, though. And setting my Q150s to small/80Hz and ports fully plugged for best integration with the sub (also the sw distance tweak). Also, using an Auralex SubDude II worked wonders with my Rythmik L12 12" sealed sub. Helped greatly reduce vibrations transmitted through the floor and cleaned up the sound nicely.

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post #18366 of 18415 Old 08-14-2019, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
Just setup the avr-x4500h this morning here's a quick comparison vs the avr-x1400h.

1) first thing i immediately noticed is my Q750 are WAY brighter (not in a harsh way though) but the resolution really comes through. Is this because of the extra power, better dac, combination of everything? who knows but it's a definite improvement.

2) second thing i noticed is the Q750's mid bass boominess is gone , bass is slightly punchier but definitely tighter. This was more of a placement issue but because of my rooms placement limitation i can either choose between a small hint of boominess or 0% bass. It looks like audyssey XT32 is definitely doing a better job at taming those peaks. *note this was with audyssey reference, i'll test it with L/R bypass(my usual setting) tonight.

3) third, Imaging/soundtsage definitely improved, everything seems locked in. The Q750 really opened up with the x4500h.

4)My subwoofer resonance issues are gone \o/. This is what made me the happiest overall, you have no idea how irritating resonance can be until you've experienced it.
Yeah.... going from audyssey multi-eq to audyssey XT32 was quite the leap for me as well so I can relate. I wouldn't say brighter, but a little more refined. The low end eq definitely makes a difference. Just imagine how much more amazing it will sound once you upgrade to LS50's

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post #18367 of 18415 Old 08-14-2019, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I think Audyssey XT32 is mostly the difference you are noticing. The brightness is likely the difference between Audyssey Reference vs L/R Bypass. The difference in bass due to the greatly enhanced capabilities of XT32 in that area.

As for increased power, better DACs, might be easier to evaluate that with Audyssey bypassed.

For example, I went from the Yamaha RX-V375 to the RX-A2070 and the versions of YPAO went from most basic to best available. Yet I was never a fan of either for auto-EQ. So I set it PEQ Through, which disables all auto EQ and relies on my MiniDSP 2x4 HD for sub EQ.

The differences in sound between the two Yamahas, YPAO auto-EQ bypassed (just use it for setting levels and distances automatically) were indeed much punchier and more refined bass, and more detailed mids and highs and a cohesiveness to the surround sound and much lower noise/better ambient and low level sound handling.

So, better amplification, DACs, etc can improve sound quality even without differences in auto EQ, but it does seem like the different versions of Audyssey in your case are definitely a major factor.

In my case, while YPAO is much more capable on the 2070 than the 375, it still sounded much better bypassed than in the flat or natural modes.

I do need sub EQ via the MiniDSP, though. And setting my Q150s to small/80Hz and ports fully plugged for best integration with the sub (also the sw distance tweak). Also, using an Auralex SubDude II worked wonders with my Rythmik L12 12" sealed sub. Helped greatly reduce vibrations transmitted through the floor and cleaned up the sound nicely.


My older x1400h was still using audyssey multiEQ XT (not 32) but it didn't have anywhere near the same level of brightness/resolution in reference mode(in a good way though). But yeah i think the sum of all the improved parts make quite a difference.

as for my subs (Dual Outlaw X12's) I already made custom isolation pads (1" MDF/ 1"high density acoustic foam/ 1" MDF wrapped in carpet) without them everything rattles in my house lol.

*Note i used to not like YPAO/Audyssey until i started using a boom mic stand. Using a better stand made a massive improvement (correct distances, levels, proper delays). I used to always play around the settings after calibration but since I picked up the mic/boom stand i haven't changed anything.


i'm still in the honeymoon phase but this is my initial impression.

Speakers: KEF Q100 / Q300 / Q750 / Q650C, Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf / SX6 / XL5F, Mirage M-190 Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2), BIC H100-II Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, Denon AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501, Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Headphones: Philips SPH9500s, Audio Tech. ATH-M40x, Takstar Pro 82.
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post #18368 of 18415 Old 08-14-2019, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I think Audyssey XT32 is mostly the difference you are noticing. The brightness is likely the difference between Audyssey Reference vs L/R Bypass. The difference in bass due to the greatly enhanced capabilities of XT32 in that area.

As for increased power, better DACs, might be easier to evaluate that with Audyssey bypassed.

For example, I went from the Yamaha RX-V375 to the RX-A2070 and the versions of YPAO went from most basic to best available. Yet I was never a fan of either for auto-EQ. So I set it PEQ Through, which disables all auto EQ and relies on my MiniDSP 2x4 HD for sub EQ.

The differences in sound between the two Yamahas, YPAO auto-EQ bypassed (just use it for setting levels and distances automatically) were indeed much punchier and more refined bass, and more detailed mids and highs and a cohesiveness to the surround sound and much lower noise/better ambient and low level sound handling.

So, better amplification, DACs, etc can improve sound quality even without differences in auto EQ, but it does seem like the different versions of Audyssey in your case are definitely a major factor.

In my case, while YPAO is much more capable on the 2070 than the 375, it still sounded much better bypassed than in the flat or natural modes.

I do need sub EQ via the MiniDSP, though. And setting my Q150s to small/80Hz and ports fully plugged for best integration with the sub (also the sw distance tweak). Also, using an Auralex SubDude II worked wonders with my Rythmik L12 12" sealed sub. Helped greatly reduce vibrations transmitted through the floor and cleaned up the sound nicely.


My older x1400h was still using audyssey multiEQ XT (not 32) but it didn't have anywhere near the same level of brightness/resolution in reference mode(in a good way though). But yeah i think the sum of all the improved parts make quite a difference.

as for my subs (Dual Outlaw X12's) I already made custom isolation pads (1" MDF/ 1"high density acoustic foam/ 1" MDF wrapped in carpet) without them everything rattles in my house lol.

*Note i used to not like YPAO/Audyssey until i started using a boom mic stand. Using a better stand made a massive improvement (correct distances, levels, proper delays). I used to always play around the settings after calibration but since I picked up the mic/boom stand i haven't changed anything.


i'm still in the honeymoon phase but this is my initial impression.
Yeah, makes sense.

And I agree that the boom mic stand is very important both for my YPAO mic and UMIK-1. That and sub isolation platform were the 2 simplest and cheapest yet very significant upgrades to my system.

Proper sub placement and EQ were the biggest improvement.

Samsung 55" MU8000
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post #18369 of 18415 Old 08-14-2019, 02:57 PM
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post #18370 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 01:03 AM
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I'm inclined to agree. A sub not only adds bass, but depth as well. Most bookshelf speakers will benefit from a good sub or two.

Going from audyssey multi-eq to audyssey XT32 did make a noticeable difference in my set. If budget allows for an AVR with Dirac live or ARC that would be even better. Denon AVR X3400/3500 can often be had for around $500 so on the more budget friendly side of things, Audyssey XT32 is about as good as it gets.
sorry for coming back late

the onkyo sr805 has strong amp. i have a sub and used Audyssey. compared with KEF wireless, these passive speaker should have good bass in close range.

i have maxed out the bass in tune control for front speakers and it somehow helped. but is this common approach to have more bass?

or maybe have a 300w 2ch driven separate amp, did anybody tried this setup?
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post #18371 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 01:06 AM
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You don't buy LS50's for the bass they put out, you buy them for the incredible detail and balanced sound from about 80hz to over 10khz that they produce.

If you have a 5.1 setup, then you should have all the bass you need coming from a good subwoofer and the TX-SR805 should have Audyssey or similar program to integrate that subwoofer with the LS50's. Many times folks haven't taken the time to really do that placement and calibration of the subwoofer well.

What sub do you have and why isn't that where you're looking for more bass? There's just so much you can expect from a 5" driver in a ported box.
KEF wireless had a good bass. i just want the same level of bass in my passive.
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post #18372 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 03:07 AM
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KEF wireless had a good bass. i just want the same level of bass in my passive.
Good luck with that.

The LS50 Wireless is 30mm deeper than the passive, so it has a longer port tube. Not 100% of that additional depth is filled with electronics, so it's got a little more cabinet volume. Lastly, the LS50 Wireless has a DSP and 200 watts driving the 5" mid-woofer. In other words, that's a different speaker than what you have.

The closest you could get is to get a powerful amp that has a DSP and boost the bass signal.
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post #18373 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 05:47 AM
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Hi All, First time posting in the Kef thread as I have not had my R700's that long I got them half price when they did the refresh
So yesterday I read a big chunk of this thread where it went on a while about bi wiring and a user posted he realized a nice improvement in performance after doing this and got roasted for saying it and several folks said it was nonsense and they were wasting there time. Well I did it last night and I am hear to tell you it was a significant improvement. My cables were longer than they needed to be so I was able to cut them in half and double them up, my Arcam Mono-blocks have dual post and of course the R700's have the dials to remove the jumper which users also said was stupid. It turns out the dials have a gold band around them that indicate whether the jumper is in or out as many thought this was an easy way to fry your amp. There are links to pages of inadequate calculations trying to prove it does nothing, all I can tell you is it works and it is easy to do. Why not try it?

My theory is that when you do this you are connecting to just the high or the low band of the crossover so essentially each cable is carrying only bass or treble information as electrons follow the path of least resistance. In this case the components in the crossover are providing the least resistance for the frequencies it is designed to carry so only that info takes that path. So not only has it reduced the bandwidth it also eliminates all reflections and standing waves from the other frequencies that are now only on the other cable cleaning things up tremendously. All transmission lines suffer from this. I have been working on radar systems for 30 years and these reflections in transmission lines are always an issue and account for the bulk of the power budget losses

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post #18374 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 08:59 AM
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KEF wireless had a good bass. i just want the same level of bass in my passive.
The LS50's (passive) have surprisingly good bass, but is limited by a 5" driver. You just can't cheat physics. A good sub or 2 is a better solution since the sub will add dynamics and depth to the sound. A decent amp does add more punch, but will sound very good with a quality AVR.
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Well i found the Limits of my Q750's last night

I wanted to test the bass performance/improvements with my new x4500H. With the speakers set to Large/full range Audyssey Reference (0dB offset) i heard the drivers bottoming out at only -20db

This was tested on a really bass heavy song (wiz khalifa - on my level on spotify) not something I listen to, but i wanted to test the bass performance.
It's safe to say the Q750 are not for the hip hop fans who want to run them without a sub.

Backing off audyssey ref. offset to -15dB I was able to push the speakers to -10dB on the same song but i think I was near their limits. This should also serve as a warning to those who have the power and are running them full range to be careful with LFE content.



the x4500h has a nice feature where i can set different crossovers for 2.1 channel listening and full surround sound. for 2.1 i have the crossover set at 40hz and when in full surround 80hz.


When i was using my x1400h i could push them to 0dB but the x1400h never had the power to bottom out the woofer.

Speakers: KEF Q100 / Q300 / Q750 / Q650C, Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf / SX6 / XL5F, Mirage M-190 Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2), BIC H100-II Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, Denon AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501, Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Headphones: Philips SPH9500s, Audio Tech. ATH-M40x, Takstar Pro 82.
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post #18376 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
Well i found the Limits of my Q750's last night [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG]

I wanted to test the bass performance/improvements with my new x4500H. With the speakers set to Large/full range Audyssey Reference (0dB offset) i heard the drivers bottoming out at only -20db [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/redface.gif[/IMG] [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG]

This was tested on a really bass heavy song (wiz khalifa - on my level on spotify) not something I listen to, but i wanted to test the bass performance.
It's safe to say the Q750 are not for the hip hop fans who want to run them without a sub.

Backing off audyssey ref. offset to -15dB I was able to push the speakers to -10dB on the same song but i think I was near their limits. This should also serve as a warning to those who have the power and are running them full range to be careful with LFE content.



the x4500h has a nice feature where i can set different crossovers for 2.1 channel listening and full surround sound. for 2.1 i have the crossover set at 40hz and when in full surround 80hz.


When i was using my x1400h i could push them to 0dB but the x1400h never had the power to bottom out the woofer.
If you have nice subs than playing in 2.1 will sound much better than 2.0. And I actually prefer using Dolby Surround upmixer with center spread off in my 5.1 setup with 5 Q150s ports plugged and one Rythmik L12 sub with a 80Hz crossover all around.

On my Fire TV Stick 4K plugged into my Yamaha RX-A2070 AVR, music in Spotify app is sufficiently loud for my tastes at about -55MV and would be 2x as loud at -45MV. And I don't use any dynamic EQ or bass boosts of any kind.

I can't imagine 0MV is Reference Level for music apps like Spotify or even YouTube on my streaming stick. Probably achieve Reference level by -20MV or even -30MV. Bass management should always be on when push speakers hard unless your speakers have the equivalent of subs built into them and even then the best locations for speakers in terms of soundstage and imaging rarely match the best locations for bass/subs.

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post #18377 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 12:04 PM
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If you have nice subs than playing in 2.1 will sound much better than 2.0. And I actually prefer using Dolby Surround upmixer with center spread off in my 5.1 setup with 5 Q150s ports plugged and one Rythmik L12 sub with a 80Hz crossover all around.

On my Fire TV Stick 4K plugged into my Yamaha RX-A2070 AVR, music in Spotify app is sufficiently loud for my tastes at about -55MV and would be 2x as loud at -45MV. And I don't use any dynamic EQ or bass boosts of any kind.

I can't imagine 0MV is Reference Level for music apps like Spotify or even YouTube on my streaming stick. Probably achieve Reference level by -20MV or even -30MV. Bass management should always be on when push speakers hard unless your speakers have the equivalent of subs built into them and even then the best locations for speakers in terms of soundstage and imaging rarely match the best locations for bass/subs.


I have Dual Outlaw Ultra X12's (very nice subs) and yes i always listen with my subs crossed over around 40/60hz for music and 80hz for movies
Also my X12 have been optimally placed using REW/Umik-1

i simply wanted to test the bass capabilities of the Q750's and i'm sharing my experience.

Speakers: KEF Q100 / Q300 / Q750 / Q650C, Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf / SX6 / XL5F, Mirage M-190 Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2), BIC H100-II Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, Denon AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501, Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Headphones: Philips SPH9500s, Audio Tech. ATH-M40x, Takstar Pro 82.

Last edited by macgallant; 08-15-2019 at 12:07 PM.
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post #18378 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
If you have nice subs than playing in 2.1 will sound much better than 2.0. And I actually prefer using Dolby Surround upmixer with center spread off in my 5.1 setup with 5 Q150s ports plugged and one Rythmik L12 sub with a 80Hz crossover all around.

On my Fire TV Stick 4K plugged into my Yamaha RX-A2070 AVR, music in Spotify app is sufficiently loud for my tastes at about -55MV and would be 2x as loud at -45MV. And I don't use any dynamic EQ or bass boosts of any kind.

I can't imagine 0MV is Reference Level for music apps like Spotify or even YouTube on my streaming stick. Probably achieve Reference level by -20MV or even -30MV. Bass management should always be on when push speakers hard unless your speakers have the equivalent of subs built into them and even then the best locations for speakers in terms of soundstage and imaging rarely match the best locations for bass/subs.


I have Dual Outlaw Ultra X12's (very nice subs) and yes i always listen with my subs crossed over around 40/60hz for music and 80hz for movies

i simply wanted to test the bass capabilities of the Q750's and i'm sharing my experience.
No problem, was just mentioning that most speakers running full range with deep and very loud bass would bottom out the woofers or at least exhibit significant levels of distortion.

For example, on Netflix if you watch Beats it has tremendous bass in the 30Hz to 50Hz region and even watching that at -32MV on my Yamaha had some of the most intense bass I have heard from music in my system. Season 3 of Stranger Things also has a tremendous amount of bass in that frequency range.

Samsung 55" MU8000
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post #18379 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
No problem, was just mentioning that most speakers running full range with deep and very loud bass would bottom out the woofers or at least exhibit significant levels of distortion.

For example, on Netflix if you watch Beats it has tremendous bass in the 30Hz to 50Hz region and even watching that at -32MV on my Yamaha had some of the most intense bass I have heard from music in my system. Season 3 of Stranger Things also has a tremendous amount of bass in that frequency range.
I hear you, it's always good to know what your speakers limitations are though. Crossed over at 40/60hz the Q750 sing beautifully even at high MV.

Speakers: KEF Q100 / Q300 / Q750 / Q650C, Fluance Signature Series Bookshelf / SX6 / XL5F, Mirage M-190 Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2), BIC H100-II Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, Denon AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501, Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Headphones: Philips SPH9500s, Audio Tech. ATH-M40x, Takstar Pro 82.

Last edited by macgallant; 08-15-2019 at 01:23 PM.
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post #18380 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by quattroman View Post
Hi All, First time posting in the Kef thread as I have not had my R700's that long I got them half price when they did the refresh
So yesterday I read a big chunk of this thread where it went on a while about bi wiring and a user posted he realized a nice improvement in performance after doing this and got roasted for saying it and several folks said it was nonsense and they were wasting there time. Well I did it last night and I am hear to tell you it was a significant improvement. My cables were longer than they needed to be so I was able to cut them in half and double them up, my Arcam Mono-blocks have dual post and of course the R700's have the dials to remove the jumper which users also said was stupid. It turns out the dials have a gold band around them that indicate whether the jumper is in or out as many thought this was an easy way to fry your amp. There are links to pages of inadequate calculations trying to prove it does nothing, all I can tell you is it works and it is easy to do. Why not try it?
If you are bi-wiring and not bi-amping (and it sounds like you are indeed bi-wiring), you can't fry an amp with the jumpers in place. And, in fact, you can leave them connected with no issue when wired for bi-wiring; you just won't really be bi-wired if you leave them connected. But what this affords you is an easy way to compare the sound when truly bi-wired vs. not but still using the same wiring.

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post #18381 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Alkaizer View Post
KEF wireless had a good bass. i just want the same level of bass in my passive.
Kef ls50w bass is, I am told, because of two reasons that can not be replicated by passive speakers.

1. The DSP prevents ls50 drivers to go into situations where the distortion may hurt sound quality. That is a combination of frequency and volume level at which that frequency is being played at. That way ls50 can play louder at the max low frequencies and still avoid distortion. That in turn allows ls50w drivers to have higher allowed displacement (higher bass) than its passive counterpart. If we try to do the same with passive speakers, we will here unacceptable level of distortion.

2. DSP prevents ls50w from over heating by limiting the volume at the frequencies that may cause overheating. That again allowed ls50w to have higher displacement than what could be possible with its passive counterpart. If we try to do that with passive ls50, it will tend to over heat.

In addition it does have a very powerful amplifier. But that can be duplicated for a passive ls50.
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post #18382 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by quattroman View Post
My theory is that when you do this you are connecting to just the high or the low band of the crossover so essentially each cable is carrying only bass or treble information as electrons follow the path of least resistance. In this case the components in the crossover are providing the least resistance for the frequencies it is designed to carry so only that info takes that path. So not only has it reduced the bandwidth it also eliminates all reflections and standing waves from the other frequencies that are now only on the other cable cleaning things up tremendously. All transmission lines suffer from this. I have been working on radar systems for 30 years and these reflections in transmission lines are always an issue and account for the bulk of the power budget losses
Maybe at radar frequencies, but at audio frequencies?

I can see why the efficiency would be better by bypassing the crossover. I doubt the difference would be audible.

But you have nothing to lose by doing it, except some wire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post
If you are bi-wiring and not bi-amping (and it sounds like you are indeed bi-wiring), you can't fry an amp with the jumpers in place. And, in fact, you can leave them connected with no issue when wired for bi-wiring; you just won't really be bi-wired if you leave them connected. But what this affords you is an easy way to compare the sound when truly bi-wired vs. not but still using the same wiring.
Not sure this is true. If two speakers of the same impedance are in parallel, the impedance will be halved.

That could fry an amp, no?

Also shorting the outputs of two amps is not good. They would be fighting each other.

I wouldn't do it.

Kef Q900/Q600c/Q100, SVS SB2000.
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post #18383 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noobtv View Post
Maybe at radar frequencies, but at audio frequencies?

I can see why the efficiency would be better by bypassing the crossover. I doubt the difference would be audible.

But you have nothing to lose by doing it, except some wire.



Not sure this is true. If two speakers of the same impedance are in parallel, the impedance will be halved.

That could fry an amp, no?

Also shorting the outputs of two amps is not good. They would be fighting each other.

I wouldn't do it.


If you are bi-wiring and not bi-amping, you can’t short two amps as only one amp is involved per speaker - if the jumper is closed, nothing is loss as almost like multi strand wire that has separated and connected back at the speaker. Granted, bi-amping with hidden jumpers would take great care not to short out from improper settings. In that case two amps are involved.


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post #18384 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by noobtv View Post
Not sure this is true. If two speakers of the same impedance are in parallel, the impedance will be halved.

That could fry an amp, no?

Also shorting the outputs of two amps is not good. They would be fighting each other.

I wouldn't do it.

Huh?

There aren't two amps connected to the speaker; only one. If it is bi-wiring (and in the OP's example, it is), it doesn't matter to the amp if the jumpers are in or out. If they are in, the speaker just simply isn't bi-wired.

Now, bi-amping IS a different story.

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post #18385 of 18415 Old 08-15-2019, 11:48 PM
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Yeah, I was thinking of bi-amping. Not sure what the advantage of bi-wiring would be?

Kef Q900/Q600c/Q100, SVS SB2000.
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post #18386 of 18415 Old 08-16-2019, 03:05 AM
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I really want to upgrade my onkyo sr805 next year, what would be the best setup with $4000 budget:

Option 1:

new AVR budget $2000

Front: active KEF LS50w $2300 (offer and include 5 year warranty!)

Center: paradigm monitor (owned)

Surr: KEF LS50 passive (owned)

Option 2: AVR $3000

front KEF LS50 passive (owned)

New center KEF R series $600 (offer)

Surr paradigm monitor (owned)

Option 3:

AVR $2000

Multi channel amp (5ch) $2000

front KEF LS50 passive (owned)

paradigm monitor center (owned)

Surr paradigm monitor (owned)

Option 4:

AVR $1000

Multi channel amp (5ch) $2300

new KEF center R series $600

Front kef ls50 passive

surr paradigm monitor

Note: room size 13x19f

Last edited by Alkaizer; 08-16-2019 at 03:25 AM.
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post #18387 of 18415 Old 08-16-2019, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaizer View Post
I really want to upgrade my onkyo sr805 next year, what would be the best setup with $4000 budget:

Option 1:

new AVR budget $2000

Front: active KEF LS50w $2300 (offer)

Center: paradigm monitor (owned)

Surr: KEF LS50 passive (owned)

Option 2: AVR $3000

front KEF LS50 passive (owned)

New center KEF R series $600 (offer)

Surr paradigm monitor (owned)

Option 3:

AVR $2000

Multi channel amp (5ch) $2000

front KEF LS50 passive (owned)

paradigm monitor center (owned)

Surr paradigm monitor (owned)

Option 4:

AVR $1000

Multi channel amp (5ch) $2300

new KEF center R series $600

Front kef ls50 passive

surr paradigm monitor

Note: room size 13x19f
I'm easily confused by the choices.

You have passive LS50's. The best center of those choices is indeed the deeply-discount R series one (R600c or R2c?) so that's good. No real need for a multi-channel amp if you have a good AVR. My room is the same size as yours, though mine is open along much of the left rear side, with main L-C-R speakers and TV screen in the center of one 13' wall.

I see no mention of subwoofer. You need that far more than the multi-channel amp. My NAD T758v3 powers my R500/R200c/R100/R50 5.1.2 system to levels I can't tolerate for more then a few seconds, though I've run it like that (reference levels) through a 2 hour movie and it never overheated.
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KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
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post #18388 of 18415 Old 08-16-2019, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
I'm easily confused by the choices.

You have passive LS50's. The best center of those choices is indeed the deeply-discount R series one (R600c or R2c?) so that's good. No real need for a multi-channel amp if you have a good AVR. My room is the same size as yours, though mine is open along much of the left rear side, with main L-C-R speakers and TV screen in the center of one 13' wall.

I see no mention of subwoofer. You need that far more than the multi-channel amp. My NAD T758v3 powers my R500/R200c/R100/R50 5.1.2 system to levels I can't tolerate for more then a few seconds, though I've run it like that (reference levels) through a 2 hour movie and it never overheated.
r2c, the new center

i have a good sub

and i really liked the ls 50w though

PS: (owned) mean i already have it.

Last edited by Alkaizer; 08-16-2019 at 03:38 AM.
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post #18389 of 18415 Old 08-16-2019, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Kef ls50w bass is, I am told, because of two reasons that can not be replicated by passive speakers.

1. The DSP prevents ls50 drivers to go into situations where the distortion may hurt sound quality. That is a combination of frequency and volume level at which that frequency is being played at. That way ls50 can play louder at the max low frequencies and still avoid distortion. That in turn allows ls50w drivers to have higher allowed displacement (higher bass) than its passive counterpart. If we try to do the same with passive speakers, we will here unacceptable level of distortion.

2. DSP prevents ls50w from over heating by limiting the volume at the frequencies that may cause overheating. That again allowed ls50w to have higher displacement than what could be possible with its passive counterpart. If we try to do that with passive ls50, it will tend to over heat.

In addition it does have a very powerful amplifier. But that can be duplicated for a passive ls50.
The passive is rated 100 watt max while the wireless have above 200w, isnt it one of the reasons and how it can be duplicated/???
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post #18390 of 18415 Old 08-16-2019, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
Just setup the avr-x4500h this morning here's a quick comparison vs the avr-x1400h.

1) first thing i immediately noticed is my Q750 are WAY brighter (not in a harsh way though) but the resolution really comes through. Is this because of the extra power, better dac, combination of everything? who knows but it's a definite improvement.

2) second thing i noticed is the Q750's mid bass boominess is gone , bass is slightly punchier but definitely tighter. This was more of a placement issue but because of my rooms placement limitation i can either choose between a small hint of boominess or 0% bass. It looks like audyssey XT32 is definitely doing a better job at taming those peaks. *note this was with audyssey reference, i'll test it with L/R bypass(my usual setting) tonight.

3) third, Imaging/soundtsage definitely improved, everything seems locked in. The Q750 really opened up with the x4500h.

4)My subwoofer resonance issues are gone \o/. This is what made me the happiest overall, you have no idea how irritating resonance can be until you've experienced it.
This is very interesting. I'll have the same setup next week. One of the reasons I ordered KEF in addition to B&W was how bright B&W sounded during demos. Truth be told the B&W doesn't sound as bright at home, although yet to run XT32 (will do so this weekend). Also had a brief test with a damaged set of Q350s (Q750s pending) and noticed a slightly warmer sound than B&W.

That said, if the KEFs do come through that bright, I'll be sticking with the B&Ws.
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