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post #18961 of 19058 Old 11-07-2019, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
If you have multiple seating scattered around the room or sit more than 12 feet back, a Q650 would be a good idea. The new Q250c is basically just a uni-q driver with 2 passive bass radiators to eliminate the need for a port. A complete rip-off at the current asking price so I'd stick with a 3rd Q150.

I don't have personal experience with the sub dude, but a few members have reported positive results.

Awesome, thanks for the info. The speakers are about 6-7ft away from where I sit and the majority of the time it's just me (no multiple seating). Sounds like the Q650 is overkill and I should stick with the third Q150.
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post #18962 of 19058 Old 11-07-2019, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by thedonovanz View Post
Makes me horse laugh to see that someone thinks they can crack open a KEF speaker and "upgrade" it. Like you know more about how to build a KEF speaker than KEF. If you want to upgrade a "Q" series speaker, try an "R" series speaker.
i'd bet dollars to donuts that several people on here regularly could upgrade the q series to equal the ls50 level ...and probably for $100 or so..of course these guys have serious speaker building backgrounds...

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post #18963 of 19058 Old 11-07-2019, 05:20 PM
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It's an upgrade to swich from 2 Q100s to 2 Q700s if i already have dual subs?

100% HT with a a Q200c center Chanel
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post #18964 of 19058 Old 11-07-2019, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by banyar View Post
It's an upgrade to swich from 2 Q100s to 2 Q700s if i already have dual subs?

100% HT with a a Q200c center Chanel
Yes, profoundly so.


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post #18965 of 19058 Old 11-07-2019, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banyar View Post
It's an upgrade to swich from 2 Q100s to 2 Q700s if i already have dual subs?

100% HT with a a Q200c center Chanel
I've never heard the older Q series towers but 1 thing to consider is your center already matches your Q100 as far as driver size and many people thought the 5" UniQ drivers sounded better than the 6.5" versions in that series. I would say if you're hitting some kind of limit with the Q100 it could be worth it but otherwise probably not. If the Q100 sound bright or forward at all, you could also try the Q150, I thought they were much smoother than the Q100 when I compared them in my room.
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post #18966 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cstein91 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
If you have multiple seating scattered around the room or sit more than 12 feet back, a Q650 would be a good idea. The new Q250c is basically just a uni-q driver with 2 passive bass radiators to eliminate the need for a port. A complete rip-off at the current asking price so I'd stick with a 3rd Q150.

I don't have personal experience with the sub dude, but a few members have reported positive results.

Awesome, thanks for the info. The speakers are about 6-7ft away from where I sit and the majority of the time it's just me (no multiple seating). Sounds like the Q650 is overkill and I should stick with the third Q150.
No such thing as overkill but the q150 is more than adequate.

You could always look for the older q200c as well

Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C / Fluance Signature Series, SX6, XL5F/ Mirage M-190 / DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-II
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Last edited by macgallant; 11-08-2019 at 07:35 AM.
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post #18967 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
No such thing as overkill but the q150 is more than adequate.

You could always look for the older q200c as well

I have looked for one of these, and they are hard to find.

I had the 650 but its so bloody big, returned it and stuck with my psb for now.
Maybe the 250 will come down

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post #18968 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by sam_canavo View Post
I have looked for one of these, and they are hard to find.

I had the 650 but its so bloody big, returned it and stuck with my psb for now.
Maybe the 250 will come down
A Q350 could be another option as well.

At the asking price of $699 CAD for the Q250c you're better off spending an extra $300 for LS50's and use the Q150 as a center.... and down the rabbit hole it you go.......

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post #18969 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by banyar View Post
It's an upgrade to swich from 2 Q100s to 2 Q700s if i already have dual subs?

100% HT with a a Q200c center Chanel
in a big room , probably , in a small room , *not so much*,imo.....

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post #18970 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by cstein91 View Post
Awesome, thanks for the info. The speakers are about 6-7ft away from where I sit and the majority of the time it's just me (no multiple seating). Sounds like the Q650 is overkill and I should stick with the third Q150.
Don't get me wrong, the Q650 will have better dynamics and soundstage so a great addition is one has the space and budget. A 3rd Q150 will produce clear and intelligible dialogue which is the first and foremost expectation of a center which after all plays at least 75% of the movie. You're sacrificing some dynamics but the fundamentals are there and it's way cheaper. A good sub or two will add more depth so you may not even notice.

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post #18971 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
A Q350 could be another option as well.

At the asking price of $699 CAD for the Q250c you're better off spending an extra $300 for LS50's and use the Q150 as a center.... and down the rabbit hole it you go.......
I was pleasantly surprised that the LS50 are a bigger step up (from Q100's) than I had anticipated, particularly for 2.1 music. Could be placebo effect, but everthing just more defined and smoother. By far and large well worth the $1000 I paid for them.
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post #18972 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
Don't get me wrong, the Q650 will have better dynamics and soundstage so a great addition is one has the space and budget. A 3rd Q150 will produce clear and intelligible dialogue which is the first and foremost expectation of a center which after all plays at least 75% of the movie. You're sacrificing some dynamics but the fundamentals are there and it's way cheaper. A good sub or two will add more depth so you may not even notice.

What about from a music listening perspective? I'm not as picky when it comes to movies, I just want the best value option for music. If the centre doesn't add much to the music listening experience regardless, or if it's a marginal difference, then I'd stick with the Q150.

But if the Q650 will add a lot more depth and 'fullness' and make a much more noticeable difference, then I'd invest in that.

This would all be without a sub.
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post #18973 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
I was pleasantly surprised that the LS50 are a bigger step up (from Q100's) than I had anticipated, particularly for 2.1 music. Could be placebo effect, but everthing just more defined and smoother. By far and large well worth the $1000 I paid for them.
I definitely noticed the difference between the LS50 and my Q100/Q300's when i demo'd them earlier this year.

I don't know how the Q150/Q350 compare to the LS50's but the Q750 closes the gap significantly. I could still tell LS50's imaging/resolution is a step up though(small but noticeable).

I recently got the OK from the Mrs. to continue my bookshelf Collection (secondary system). \0/

Current rotating lineup:
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Speakers: KEF Q100, Q300, Q750, Q650C / Fluance Signature Series, SX6, XL5F/ Mirage M-190 / DCM TP160S-CH Subwoofers: Outlaw Ultra X12 (x2) / BIC H100-II
Receiver: Denon AVR-X4500H, AVR-X1400H Integrated Amplifier: Yamaha A-S501/ Fosi Audio TPA3116 mini amp Extras: MiniDSP Umik-1 Amplifier: Emotiva BasX-A300

Last edited by macgallant; 11-08-2019 at 12:30 PM.
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post #18974 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cstein91 View Post
What about from a music listening perspective? I'm not as picky when it comes to movies, I just want the best value option for music. If the centre doesn't add much to the music listening experience regardless, or if it's a marginal difference, then I'd stick with the Q150.

But if the Q650 will add a lot more depth and 'fullness' and make a much more noticeable difference, then I'd invest in that.

This would all be without a sub.
Even with 3 identical speakers up front, I'll always listen to music in 2.0/2.1 for the simple reason that it just sounds better as it was mixed in stereo. For that reason I'm in absolutely no hurry and may not even bother swapping out for a 3rd LS50 because the Q200c does a rather fine job during movies. Music is more important to me which is why I only upgraded my mains and use a sealed sub. I'm not saying it will never happen, but no upgrade plans for the near future.

Yes I know I said that before buying the LS50's and the NAD before that ...and the AVR upgrade before that...and the sub, but I mean it this time!
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post #18975 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 12:48 PM
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Yes I know I said that before buying the LS50's and the NAD before that ...and the AVR upgrade before that...and the sub, but I mean it this time!
Now where have I heard that before... oh, that's right... from my own, dumb mouth.

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post #18976 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
Even with 3 identical speakers up front, I'll always listen to music in 2.0/2.1 for the simple reason that it just sounds better as it was mixed in stereo. For that reason I'm in absolutely no hurry and may not even bother swapping out for a 3rd LS50 because the Q200c does a rather fine job during movies. Music is more important to me which is why I only upgraded my mains and use a sealed sub. I'm not saying it will never happen, but no upgrade plans for the near future.

Yes I know I said that before buying the LS50's and the NAD before that ...and the AVR upgrade before that...and the sub, but I mean it this time!


I agree with you on music, i absolutely HATE the extra processing for music going from 2.0 to 5.1/7.1 etc. If it's a bluray concert mixed in 5.1 thats different though but it's also rare.

Eventually i'm gonna get a pair of Rythmik F12's for the secondary/bookshelf system but I'm not in a bit hurry since this as a lifelong journey/hobby!
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post #18977 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 01:11 PM
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I agree with you on music, i absolutely HATE the extra processing for music going from 2.0 to 5.1/7.1 etc. If it's a bluray concert mixed in 5.1 thats different though but it's also rare.

Eventually i'm gonna get a pair of Rythmik F12's for the secondary/bookshelf system but I'm not in a bit hurry since this as a lifelong journey/hobby!
Yeah....I definitely hear you! I've already spent too much this year. Was looking at new amps, but I'll do the sensible thing and open up my NAD and see about re-capping it myself...….Can't be that complicated can it?

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post #18978 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by macgallant View Post
A Q350 could be another option as well.

At the asking price of $699 CAD for the Q250c you're better off spending an extra $300 for LS50's and use the Q150 as a center.... and down the rabbit hole it you go.......

Yes, the old rabbit hole.
By the way I have the q100s and the placement of the woofer/tweeter is close to the top, with the port on front.

On the 150s it has been moved to the center and port to the rear.
Not sure how much difference that would make with tonal match.
Somebody want to chime in, feel free.
Cheers

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post #18979 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 02:59 PM
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Yes, the old rabbit hole.
By the way I have the q100s and the placement of the woofer/tweeter is close to the top, with the port on front.

On the 150s it has been moved to the center and port to the rear.
Not sure how much difference that would make with tonal match.
Somebody want to chime in, feel free.
Cheers
The rear port seems to produce more bass in most rooms since it will be closer to the wall, I had the Q100 and Q150 awhile back and took measurements, the Q150 has quite a bit more bass from 50-80Hz(3-5db), which is all in the port range. I also personally like the centered look of the Q150, the only thing I don't like is the finish, the Q100 looked nicer to me.
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post #18980 of 19058 Old 11-08-2019, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
I was pleasantly surprised that the LS50 are a bigger step up (from Q100's) than I had anticipated, particularly for 2.1 music. Could be placebo effect, but everthing just more defined and smoother. By far and large well worth the $1000 I paid for them.
I had a chance to compare Q100s against R300s just recently. Q100s had wider soundstage, but R300s had voice and instrument separations where Q100s could not come even close. R300s disappear in front of you, whereas with Q100s I could tell most of the times where sound was coming from. R300s produce a much more magical sound, somehow it is much more sparkling. I do want to compare R300s against LS50s in my own environment. Hearing them elsewhere and then coming back home is not going to cut it anymore. As soon as I could score them cheap enough I'll bite the bullet.
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post #18981 of 19058 Old 11-09-2019, 07:21 PM
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Finished up my surround setup.
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post #18982 of 19058 Old 11-10-2019, 09:03 AM
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Q150 as center = winner

Quote:
Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
The Q250 does have dual bass radiators that eliminate the need for a port. The port mostly comes into play below 80-90 at higher volume so using a 100hz crossover would be a good option. Due to space restrictions my speakers are closer to the wall then I'd like so I use a 100hz crossover on all my kef speakers in the main setup and it sounds great. Worse case you can plug the port.
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Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
^^The Q150 does come with foam port plugs so you could use those if you were to make one a center in a cabinet
I wish to thank those of you who encouraged me to simply try the Q150-as-a-center route. I'll be honest, I was slightly skeptical, but clearly wrong: I bought a second pair, put one speaker in my cabinet with its foam plug, ran the YPAO, and it works like a charm. Absolutely crystal clear dialogue and seamless integration with the Q150s as L/R. Looks like the AVR pulled back the bass and pushed forward the mids a little on the center speaker, I'm guessing due to the fact it's in the cabinet, it may have helped with clarity. In any case, it's hard for me to imagine I would have gotten much better results with a Q250c or Q650c.

Thanks again! Now will try to find a taker for the second Q150
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post #18983 of 19058 Old 11-10-2019, 10:27 AM
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I wish to thank those of you who encouraged me to simply try the Q150-as-a-center route. I'll be honest, I was slightly skeptical, but clearly wrong: I bought a second pair, put one speaker in my cabinet with its foam plug, ran the YPAO, and it works like a charm. Absolutely crystal clear dialogue and seamless integration with the Q150s as L/R. Looks like the AVR pulled back the bass and pushed forward the mids a little on the center speaker, I'm guessing due to the fact it's in the cabinet, it may have helped with clarity. In any case, it's hard for me to imagine I would have gotten much better results with a Q250c or Q650c.

Thanks again! Now will try to find a taker for the second Q150
Just keep the spare. In a few months you can just get another pair and setup another 3.1 in the bedroom, basement or whatnot.

Glad it worked out for you and you're enjoying your setup. Just for the heck of it, set the center on top of the cabinet and set it as far forward as possible. I'll bet it sounds clearer and more detailed than it does in the cabinet.
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post #18984 of 19058 Old 11-10-2019, 10:32 AM
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Glad it worked out for you and you're enjoying your setup. Just for the heck of it, set the center on top of the cabinet and set it as far forward as possible. I'll bet it sounds clearer and more detailed than it does in the cabinet.
Oh, how I wish this was an option... The cabinet is higher than normal, so if I lift the TV so that the center speaker does not block the line of sight, the TV is higher and it strains my neck. But it's fine, I accept that it's not 100% optimal, it works really well right now!
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post #18985 of 19058 Old 11-10-2019, 10:36 AM
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Now will try to find a taker for the second Q150

With them on sale, now, it might not be too hard.
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post #18986 of 19058 Old 11-10-2019, 03:49 PM
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I visited my dealer today to check out the new KEF KF92 subwoofer.

Oh my, what an amazing job KEF has done with this subwoofer!

The first thing I noticed is the size. It's no bigger than my KEF Kube 10b. The high-gloss black finish is deep and perfect, very similar to that piano black finish on the new R series.

In checking performance, we didn't have any true 11hz material to play, but some pipe organ music with tones down to 14-15hz were played and though can really only discern musical notes about 20hz, the tonal differences in how it felt in the room were incredibly detailed. This is the real deal for all kinds of music!

Now the down side. The KF92 is just too small to truly pressurize a large space the way a big ported sub can. In my 10'x14' office setup it would work great, and it would certainly displace the SVS SB2000 in my larger living room space, but anything larger wouldn't have that deep vibration that a large ported sub can produce.

It's a winner, but not for every application.
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KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
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post #18987 of 19058 Old 11-10-2019, 06:57 PM
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I'm running with Reference 4s main, Reference 2 side and 204/c center (have a bunch of smaller Kef's for the other surrounds). Is it really worth upgrading my speakers? The Ref 4 & 204/2c might be older but sound awesome.

Let me repeat this question. For the record, I also have a dual PSW4000 sub with this set, although I modded these subs to used an external amp.
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post #18988 of 19058 Old 11-10-2019, 07:41 PM
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Let me repeat this question. For the record, I also have a dual PSW4000 sub with this set, although I modded these subs to used an external amp.
I think the reason you didn't get a response is because few if any other members of this forum already own the Reference Model 4, Model 2, and matching center speaker so few know how good they are. They are nice speakers, but the current Reference series is far, far better, IMO. the advancements in technology and materials have been enormous and the new models have much more inert cabinets, cleaner sound in every range.

They come at a premium price however, and it's only you and your ears & wallet who can pass judgement on whether or not to upgrade. If money weren't an issue, there's no question that I would go audition the new speakers and especially consider the Blade or Blade 2. My dealer has Reference 3 and Blade 2 that I could take home to try, but he knows I won't even ask because I can't afford to buy.

As for the subs, those are also older and you deserve to audition a modern sub with a DSP.

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
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post #18989 of 19058 Old 11-11-2019, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
I think the reason you didn't get a response is because few if any other members of this forum already own the Reference Model 4, Model 2, and matching center speaker so few know how good they are. They are nice speakers, but the current Reference series is far, far better, IMO. the advancements in technology and materials have been enormous and the new models have much more inert cabinets, cleaner sound in every range.

They come at a premium price however, and it's only you and your ears & wallet who can pass judgement on whether or not to upgrade. If money weren't an issue, there's no question that I would go audition the new speakers and especially consider the Blade or Blade 2. My dealer has Reference 3 and Blade 2 that I could take home to try, but he knows I won't even ask because I can't afford to buy.

As for the subs, those are also older and you deserve to audition a modern sub with a DSP.
It took long and hard soul searching for me to give up my beloved Ref. 107/2s for Ref. 1s. The incompatibility of the single-ended KUBE between balanced Ayre KX-5/20 preamp and KX-5/20 amp contributed to the decision, and finally the realization that the mid and upper range of the new speakers seem perhaps a bit superior.

Re DSP for subs: A used Velodyne SMS-1 can provide acoustic room correction for up to three subs, either automated or with lots of parameters to twiddle.
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post #18990 of 19058 Old 11-11-2019, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
I think the reason you didn't get a response is because few if any other members of this forum already own the Reference Model 4, Model 2, and matching center speaker so few know how good they are. They are nice speakers, but the current Reference series is far, far better, IMO. the advancements in technology and materials have been enormous and the new models have much more inert cabinets, cleaner sound in every range.

They come at a premium price however, and it's only you and your ears & wallet who can pass judgement on whether or not to upgrade. If money weren't an issue, there's no question that I would go audition the new speakers and especially consider the Blade or Blade 2. My dealer has Reference 3 and Blade 2 that I could take home to try, but he knows I won't even ask because I can't afford to buy.

As for the subs, those are also older and you deserve to audition a modern sub with a DSP.

Appreciate the feedback. I'm still in love with the sounds of the older Ref 4s, and I need to justify spending 5 figures to replace this set


As far as the subs are concerned: both of them actually had the amps failing with an intermittent hum that either doesn't show up for days or sometimes it happens within minutes. The sub has been serviced by both Kef itself as well as Analogique (Kef repair center) in Manhattan. I have spend hundreds of dollars and countless miles trying to have this fixed. I ended up opening the sub to discover it has a Peerless XLS/XXLS driver inside. I purchased the Behringer iNuke NU1000 to drive both my amps and it works great.
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