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3M views 26K replies 2K participants last post by  nohairleft 
#1 ·
KEF owner here. I'm surprised there isn't an "official" thread for us yet.


My system:



Harman Kardon AVR-435

iQ7's up front

2QC on center duty

Q5's bringing up the rear

PSW 2150


Rounding out the gear is my Denon DVM-715 dvd changer(soon to be a Toshiba HD player), and RCA 56 inch HDTV, all connected with Monster Ultra Series speaker wire, interconnects, and banana plugs(sue me, the stuff was on clearance lol).


I'll try to have pics up within a week.


Thomas
 
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#17,101 ·
This is another thing I was wondering about. All the reading I've done about the LS 50's mention how they need the right electronics to power them. Do you think my NAD T758v3 will be able to power these enough at moderate listening levels around -20db ?
Your Nad is a very good hi-end unit will easily power those LS50's and Dirac live will be a big plus. You definitely have the right electronics on hand. The one thing I would recommend if you do a lot of music listening is a good sealed sub(s) such as Kef Kube 12 or Rhytmik L12/L22. Either of those subs will make a big difference.
 
#17,102 ·
Hi Brian,



I'm guessing from you're description you have the 1099's. (And probably Volts for surrounds if you went all in with DIY Soundgroup for your theater.)



Just curious, what is it about the KEF's do you prefer for two channel music? Are they a bit more accurate or neutral, etc.



And what is it about the 1099's that you prefer for home theater?



Have you ever listened to the 1099's vs the Kef's in the same room against each other or done any measurements?



Not trying to start any debate here at all. I've just been curious for a while about high sensitivity speakers for HT.



Thanks

Dan


I have no idea why the question “are you using them for music or home theater?” ever become popular. The real question is how accurate do you want your speakers to be? There is nothing magical about music vice home theater. I prefer accuracy because a lot of movies have excellent sound tracks and KEF provides great accuracy for the cost. You may have a different preference.


-To be an audiophile you must abandon all research and science.
 
#17,103 ·
Yeah, its the same kind of thing. You'll not only get the system measurements, but the raw driver's, as well. In some cases, you can interact with designers directly on the various forums or read about their comments about the designs, like Dennis Murphy & Rick Craig here.

I've enjoyed reading your posts about your journey through the various speakers you've tried, but I thought it was kind of a cheap shot about noobs and 100+ dB SPL. We all have different requirements and we try to get there the best we can.
I didn't see a single measurement for anything on the DIY soundgroup website, I even tried googling a few that I would be interested in, the 4" fullrange and 2 way bookshelf. Even if they did, it would most likely only be an on-axis measurement, which is better than nothing of course but only about 10% of what you really need to evaluate a speaker by measurements. Harman's spinorama is 72 measurements for comparison.

And sorry if I offended anyone, I wasn't meaning to in regards to the 100 db comment but unless you're trying to fill a huge space like a nightclub, bar or are just trying to do permanent hearing damage as fast as possible, 99 db speakers are completely unnecessary.

I have no idea why the question “are you using them for music or home theater?” ever become popular. The real question is how accurate do you want your speakers to be? There is nothing magical about music vice home theater. I prefer accuracy because a lot of movies have excellent sound tracks and KEF provides great accuracy for the cost. You may have a different preference.


-To be an audiophile you must abandon all research and science.
Yeah this is another one of those audiophile myths that will probably never die.
 
#17,104 ·
When I ask the question "movies or music?" or the percentages, it's because I'm thinking someone who watches movies over 80% of their use of the system isn't likely doing any "critical listening" of the fine details of music. Often times it also relates to budget for adding (at least) visually matching surrounds in the future or now, and more means either higher budget or less expensive speakers. Yes, I'm fully aware that there are many movies with REALLY good music in their soundtracks.

It has nothing to do with the idea that speakers for music are or need to be somehow different than speakers for movies.

That said, folks who do buy higher-performing (pricier) speakers for movies often report back that they are now listening to music a LOT more.
 
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#17,105 ·
I have no idea why the question “are you using them for music or home theater?” ever become popular. The real question is how accurate do you want your speakers to be? There is nothing magical about music vice home theater. I prefer accuracy because a lot of movies have excellent sound tracks and KEF provides great accuracy for the cost. You may have a different preference.


-To be an audiophile you must abandon all research and science.
Some people ask the question because they want to know what elements should they compromise on.

For music, one can compromise on high SPL level, excessive bass or multiple speakers.

For home theater, one needs to prioritize the above elements but can compromise on speaker accuracy and presence of minor resonances (if one has to)



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
#17,106 ·
I have no idea why the question “are you using them for music or home theater?” ever become popular. The real question is how accurate do you want your speakers to be? There is nothing magical about music vice home theater. I prefer accuracy because a lot of movies have excellent sound tracks and KEF provides great accuracy for the cost. You may have a different preference.


-To be an audiophile you must abandon all research and science.
I think some of the people who use their speakers predominantly for a cinematic purpose may be able to tolerate a brighter, more fatiguing, speaker in the short time it takes to watch a film but such a speaker may not be ideally suited to music listening for extended periods of time. YMMV
 
#17,108 ·
That said, folks who do buy higher-performing (pricier) speakers for movies often report back that they are now listening to music a LOT more.
I was one of those people.

I'm under no illusion that my setup is hi-end, but the better my system gets (within my means), the more I enjoy music. Most of you have seen my journey progress from a pair of Q100's with an entry level AVR and lousy (Bic F-12) sub. The real turning point for me was upgrading the sub( I know there are better subs, but limited options in Canada and Kef Kube subs weren't out yet) which at the time hadn't realized how detrimental the bic really sub was. Upgrading the AVR over the holidays further improved my listening enjoyment. I still have room for improvement which will be replacing the Q100's with LS50's at some point.
 
#17,109 ·
I was one of those people.



I'm under no illusion that my setup is hi-end, but the better my system gets (within my means), the more I enjoy music. Most of you have seen my journey progress from a pair of Q100's with an entry level AVR and lousy (Bic F-12) sub. The real turning point for me was upgrading the sub( I know there are better subs, but limited options in Canada and Kef Kube subs weren't out yet) which at the time hadn't realized how detrimental the bic really sub was. Upgrading the AVR over the holidays further improved my listening enjoyment. I still have room for improvement which will be replacing the Q100's with LS50's at some point.


The better my speakers got the more I enjoyed home theater also.


-To be an audiophile you must abandon all research and science.
 
#17,110 ·
I was one of those people.

I'm under no illusion that my setup is hi-end, but the better my system gets (within my means), the more I enjoy music. Most of you have seen my journey progress from a pair of Q100's with an entry level AVR and lousy (Bic F-12) sub. The real turning point for me was upgrading the sub( I know there are better subs, but limited options in Canada and Kef Kube subs weren't out yet) which at the time hadn't realized how detrimental the bic really sub was. Upgrading the AVR over the holidays further improved my listening enjoyment. I still have room for improvement which will be replacing the Q100's with LS50's at some point.
It applies to me as well, in a different way. You've heard what the improvements can bring to your enjoyment and satisfaction level. I didn't just 'catch the bug', I was infected with the plague.

From the time I started with my first system of my own after I got married in 1980, the focus had always been music. (At that time, exclusively hard album-oriented rock.) When I did the first major upgrade in '88, it was again music though I quickly added two surround speakers. A sub was always out of reach as we were raising two kids with a 3rd coming. It was not until that 3rd kid was a teen that I got a center speaker and sub, and it was HIS idea! He had replaced my beloved Harmon Kardon HK440vxi with a used Sony 5.1 AVR, thrown in a crappy Polk "sub" and BIC center. I wasn't even paying attention, and no longer listening. My Onkyo C7400 single CD player was changed to a Sony, my Dual 503-1cs turntable was trashed. My Hafler 200 speakers started sounding horrible. I was at a sound reproduction low. That youngest one moved in with a girl's family (weird), and finally I paid attention.

In 2011 I replaced the tweeters in the main speakers with OE replacements, replaced the surrounds with a pair of Infinity 2000SS I bought for $50. The next year I bought on whim a closeout Denon AVR-1912. The boy gave me a pair of KEF iQ10 for Christmas. After my dad passed in '13 and then mom in '15, and all 3 kids were out, it was time for major changes. In October '15 it was the R500's & SB1000, then the R200c, still using iQ10 as surrounds. Right there, almost all 2.1 channel MUSIC via the Sony CDP-CE500 player. Changed to the NAD T758 (not v3 yet), and in Dec '16 got the R100's to replace the iQ10.

That T758 had modes and power I liked, and I got a Bluesound Vault to rip all the CD's. The stereo imaging of the R500's and bass of what had become an SB2000 together with streaming Tidal HiFi for the 1st time (liked what the audio shop had me demo) had me firmly hooked back into 2.1 and 2.0 music again. Why not play those LP's sitting there, so I got a TT. My music listening got so much better, but I always had to move a chair to the middle of the room and sit there to get the best result.

Late last summer I decided to try putting together a true 2.0/2.1 system in my office, where I always sit in the middle. I first used a Pyle PTA-1 amp I had kicking around, with my IQ10's. Wow, pretty good. A deal on a Kube 10b, and OMG what a leap. I needed sub output, so replaced the Pyle (of crap) with a demo unit NAD D3020. I tried the R100's there, but they really weren't right in that situation. I missed being able to use the BluOS on my desktop; I could only stream with the Tidal desktop app. So I got a Bluesound Powernode 2. Much better. Weeks later at my dealer I half-jokingly asked if they still had the damaged white R100's, one had an ugly, dented-up driver. Yup, but they wouldn't go below $800. I went home with the trade-in mint-condition LS50's they had for just a $100 more.

Now my office is 85% refurbished, the LS50's are on stands, the Powernode 2 is now gifted to my son and replaced with the NAD M10, and my turntable is right here too. It was a 30+ year journey to get from and back to listening to music in stereo. I now listen to far more types of music than ever, very little of it the stuff I loved as a younger man. I never imagined it could be this good, this enjoyable. Movies are such a small part of what I spend time with now.

Everyone has a different journey, and a different destination. That's mine, and no guarantees that I'm done traveling.
 
#17,111 ·
It applies to me as well, in a different way. You've heard what the improvements can bring to your enjoyment and satisfaction level. I didn't just 'catch the bug', I was infected with the plague.

From the time I started with my first system of my own after I got married in 1980, the focus had always been music. (At that time, exclusively hard album-oriented rock.) When I did the first major upgrade in '88, it was again music though I quickly added two surround speakers. A sub was always out of reach as we were raising two kids with a 3rd coming. It was not until that 3rd kid was a teen that I got a center speaker and sub, and it was HIS idea! He had replaced my beloved Harmon Kardon HK440vxi with a used Sony 5.1 AVR, thrown in a crappy Polk "sub" and BIC center. I wasn't even paying attention, and no longer listening. My Onkyo C7400 single CD player was changed to a Sony, my Dual 503-1cs turntable was trashed. My Hafler 200 speakers started sounding horrible. I was at a sound reproduction low. That youngest one moved in with a girl's family (weird), and finally I paid attention.

In 2011 I replaced the tweeters in the main speakers with OE replacements, replaced the surrounds with a pair of Infinity 2000SS I bought for $50. The next year I bought on whim a closeout Denon AVR-1912. The boy gave me a pair of KEF iQ10 for Christmas. After my dad passed in '13 and then mom in '15, and all 3 kids were out, it was time for major changes. In October '15 it was the R500's & SB1000, then the R200c, still using iQ10 as surrounds. Right there, almost all 2.1 channel MUSIC via the Sony CDP-CE500 player. Changed to the NAD T758 (not v3 yet), and in Dec '16 got the R100's to replace the iQ10.

That T758 had modes and power I liked, and I got a Bluesound Vault to rip all the CD's. The stereo imaging of the R500's and bass of what had become an SB2000 together with streaming Tidal HiFi for the 1st time (liked what the audio shop had me demo) had me firmly hooked back into 2.1 and 2.0 music again. Why not play those LP's sitting there, so I got a TT. My music listening got so much better, but I always had to move a chair to the middle of the room and sit there to get the best result.

Late last summer I decided to try putting together a true 2.0/2.1 system in my office, where I always sit in the middle. I first used a Pyle PTA-1 amp I had kicking around, with my IQ10's. Wow, pretty good. A deal on a Kube 10b, and OMG what a leap. I needed sub output, so replaced the Pyle (of crap) with a demo unit NAD D3020. I tried the R100's there, but they really weren't right in that situation. I missed being able to use the BluOS on my desktop; I could only stream with the Tidal desktop app. So I got a Bluesound Powernode 2. Much better. Weeks later at my dealer I half-jokingly asked if they still had the damaged white R100's, one had an ugly, dented-up driver. Yup, but they wouldn't go below $800. I went home with the trade-in mint-condition LS50's they had for just a $100 more.

Now my office is 85% refurbished, the LS50's are on stands, the Powernode 2 is now gifted to my son and replaced with the NAD M10, and my turntable is right here too. It was a 30+ year journey to get from and back to listening to music in stereo. I now listen to far more types of music than ever, very little of it the stuff I loved as a younger man. I never imagined it could be this good, this enjoyable. Movies are such a small part of what I spend time with now.

Everyone has a different journey, and a different destination. That's mine, and no guarantees that I'm done traveling.
Funny that you mentioned different genres of music. In the past year or so I find myself listening to Sade, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Dire Straits, Of Monsters and men, a new level of appreciation for Pink Floyd and the list goes on. Up until then hard rock and heavy metal was about all i would listen to. Maybe I'm just getting older and my musical tastes have shifted or maybe It sounds so good now that I appreciate it more. I should mention that Hard rock and metal does sound a whole lot better too.
 
#17,112 ·
I do not know how to "like" a post here but I would like the last two. I do not mean to be a jerk though. Doesn't the LS50 have a wave guide? Should not need to sit in the center then but is always best for 2.1. 2.1 is all I do. I keep it going 24/7. I own like one cartoon movie on DVD. We actually have a dedicated home theater but it goes unused. Kids are adults(if that makes sense). My wife does not use the theater either. Kids used it but not when it was upgraded to Atmos. Don't know why I even bothered because we never use it. I figured if we sold the home. By then there will be a new format probably anyways. On my reference system I listen to easy listening and Classical because of the resolution. I am an old man and I enjoy rap music. I do not however enjoy pounding bass. In our bedroom we listen to EDM and rap. You can't go wrong with any KEF IMO. Years ago I had the 105/2 I think it was. I am now considering to get the Reference 1 in the bedroom. Not sure. At that price point there are so many good speakers but they are all vastly different. Now I even kind of like the 805 D3 even though their measurements are terrible. The Ref 1 is mostly flat. I might even consider saving my shirt and getting the LS50. Could save a lot on Ref 1 and get "real" powered monitors too. I am undecided.
 
#17,113 ·
I have long felt that Kef works very well for music and movies but I also believe you can do better than Kef for a movie only set-up which use more high efficiency designs with integrated subs. For example JBL Synthesis M2s which do music well but excel on HT. Check out Thrang’s thread on this Forum. Whether you listen to two channel, multichannel music or movies, you can prioritize for each. Having said all this, I have noted since the early 90s when I bought 103/4s that Kef does both music and movies very well. Another priority for me is they must sound good at lower levels, don’t need to crank them which all the Kefs I’ve owned do. I want to keep my hearing as long as possible to continue to enjoy music.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#17,114 ·
I didn't see a single measurement for anything on the DIY soundgroup website, I even tried googling a few that I would be interested in, the 4" fullrange and 2 way bookshelf. Even if they did, it would most likely only be an on-axis measurement, which is better than nothing of course but only about 10% of what you really need to evaluate a speaker by measurements. Harman's spinorama is 72 measurements for comparison.
They are not going to be on that site unless someone who built a kit posts them, but you can go back to the various DIY forums and read the posts from the designers and glean much more information than most large companies provide about their speakers. As mentioned, you can look at the raw driver specs, and get a good idea what's going on. There are a lot of great tools available that don't require large facilities to get sound power and DI measurements. It's thankfully a common part of the process regardless of the scale of the operation.

I'll leave it there though. As a KEF owner I monitor this thread occasionally, and thought I would address some of the the obvious misconceptions about the DIY channel, and by extension ID. It's not for everyone, and there are many great speakers at varying price points from large companies, ID, and DIY. It's a great time to be an audio enthusiast.
 
#17,115 ·
I have long felt that Kef works very well for music and movies but I also believe you can do better than Kef for a movie only set-up which use more high efficiency designs with integrated subs. For example JBL Synthesis M2s which do music well but excel on HT. Check out Thrang’s thread on this Forum. Whether you listen to two channel, multichannel music or movies, you can prioritize for each. Having said all this, I have noted since the early 90s when I bought 103/4s that Kef does both music and movies very well. Another priority for me is they must sound good at lower levels, don’t need to crank them which all the Kefs I’ve owned do. I want to keep my hearing as long as possible to continue to enjoy music.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm totally with you on wanting to keep my hearing as long as possible, I actually have a pair of musicians earplugs that I keep on my keychain just in case I end up somewhere with loud music or something.

A speaker like the JBL M2 would definitely do home theater very well and have tons of output but regardless of how much output a speaker has, a multi-sub setup is a must to get the bass right due to room modes, you have to think about the center and surrounds as well. A 15 inch woofer in the M2 with a 4th order high pass at 80Hz is largely going to be wasted money when a 6" or 8" woofer can easily do the same job at realistic listening levels. Floyd Toole uses Salon 2's as mains(3 8" woofers) and I believe he acknowledged that they were overkill for the task but he went that route because they have smoother response than the smaller studio 2.
 
#17,116 ·
I'm totally with you on wanting to keep my hearing as long as possible, I actually have a pair of musicians earplugs that I keep on my keychain just in case I end up somewhere with loud music or something.



A speaker like the JBL M2 would definitely do home theater very well and have tons of output but regardless of how much output a speaker has, a multi-sub setup is a must to get the bass right due to room modes, you have to think about the center and surrounds as well. A 15 inch woofer in the M2 with a 4th order high pass at 80Hz is largely going to be wasted money when a 6" or 8" woofer can easily do the same job at realistic listening levels. Floyd Toole uses Salon 2's as mains(3 8" woofers) and I believe he acknowledged that they were overkill for the task but he went that route because they have smoother response than the smaller studio 2.

I am a fan of Revel since I auditioned the Studio 2 in my room. I am well aware of Dr. Toole’s room but I think Harmon would agree the M2s are better than the Salon 2s in a movie only setup. I concur that multiple subs, etc. are required. Of course the Salon 2s will be better for music but even there it is close. Great speakers tend to sound more alike than different IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#17,117 ·
I am a fan of Revel since I auditioned the Studio 2 in my room. I am well aware of Dr. Toole’s room but I think Harmon would agree the M2s are better than the Salon 2s in a movie only setup. I concur that multiple subs, etc. are required. Of course the Salon 2s will be better for music but even there it is close. Great speakers tend to sound more alike than different IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don’t know who speaks for Harmon but I asked Dr Toole directly if it made sense that a speaker would be better for either music or home theater and he confirmed what I had suspected, that It does not make sense. Either you want accuracy or you are willing to give up some accuracy.

If you don’t believe me, then ask Dr Toole yourself.


-To be an audiophile you must abandon all research and science.
 
#17,118 ·
#17,119 ·
Hey guys,
I recently picked up a pair of Kef R11 speakers. While unpacking them I noticed a few scratch marks and finger print marks in the finish of the speaker cabinets.

Also noticed around edge of the cabinet where the speakers get placed were not even finished properly. I don't think that a pair of speakers that cost 5k dollars should have so many
imprecations in the paint. I'm not really sure how to handle the situation. But really looking for some advice on how to remove the scratches from the paint as well as the finger print marks.
I took some pictures to show you guys, but I found it a bit tricky to take pictures of the R11 because of how glossy the cabinet finish is.
 

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#17,120 ·
I do not know how to "like" a post here but I would like the last two. I do not mean to be a jerk though. Doesn't the LS50 have a wave guide? Should not need to sit in the center then but is always best for 2.1. 2.1 is all I do. I keep it going 24/7. I own like one cartoon movie on DVD. We actually have a dedicated home theater but it goes unused. Kids are adults(if that makes sense). My wife does not use the theater either. Kids used it but not when it was upgraded to Atmos. Don't know why I even bothered because we never use it. I figured if we sold the home. By then there will be a new format probably anyways. On my reference system I listen to easy listening and Classical because of the resolution. I am an old man and I enjoy rap music. I do not however enjoy pounding bass. In our bedroom we listen to EDM and rap. You can't go wrong with any KEF IMO. Years ago I had the 105/2 I think it was. I am now considering to get the Reference 1 in the bedroom. Not sure. At that price point there are so many good speakers but they are all vastly different. Now I even kind of like the 805 D3 even though their measurements are terrible. The Ref 1 is mostly flat. I might even consider saving my shirt and getting the LS50. Could save a lot on Ref 1 and get "real" powered monitors too. I am undecided.
You can "like" a post if you're using a desktop browser rather than a mobile device to view the forum.

The LS50's "tweeter waveguide" is....the midrange driver. Same with all Uni-Q driver-equipped KEF speakers. When I stated that I now get to sit centered between them, it's unlike my living room setup where I'm in-line with the left main speaker and far off-center from the right. Balancing output with Dirac Live can only go so far...
 
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