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post #25201 of 28106 Old 09-11-2017, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
He didn't. He is known for posting nonsense.

And a rhetorical question on my part.
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post #25202 of 28106 Old 09-11-2017, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SMO5007 View Post
Hi guys,

have a quick question and I hope you guys can help me out. I came across a used pair of B&W Nautilus 802's at a pretty decent price $4200.00. I was thinking of buying them knowing they are 17 years old. I know that these are great speakers. Prolly a lot better then the kef r700's I currently own now. But how much better? Would I be blown away? Would be driving them with an Anthem MCA 325 and Integra 70.4



Should I do it? anyone have an info advice on what I should do? Is that a fair price? condition 7/10. Plus i have to drive 3 hours to get them.



Any comments advice is greatly appreciated in advanced!



-Mike


Considering so many people liking the new 700 series I would check them out. It'll be around the same price range and 17 years newer and in perfect condition.




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post #25203 of 28106 Old 09-11-2017, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SMO5007 View Post
Hi guys,
have a quick question and I hope you guys can help me out. I came across a used pair of B&W Nautilus 802's at a pretty decent price $4200.00. I was thinking of buying them knowing they are 17 years old. I know that these are great speakers. Prolly a lot better then the kef r700's I currently own now. But how much better? Would I be blown away? Would be driving them with an Anthem MCA 325 and Integra 70.4

Should I do it? anyone have an info advice on what I should do? Is that a fair price? condition 7/10. Plus i have to drive 3 hours to get them.

Any comments advice is greatly appreciated in advanced!

-Mike
You should probably listen to them first. I personally wouldn't drop that kind of money on 17 year old speakers. You can get 804D2s for around that kind of money which, IMO, is a far superior speaker.
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post #25204 of 28106 Old 09-11-2017, 05:53 PM
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[QUOTE=PCW;54775794]I was at that Magnolia store today (Fairlakes) and was able to demo the new 702S2, 705S2 and both center channel (HTM71-S2 and HTM72-S2). Right next to the 702S2 were the 804D3s. We played musical tracks from the Eagles Hell Freezes Over DTS DVD. We switched between the Pioneer Elite LC-LX901 receiver and the Arcam 550 and 850. I noticed that the 702S2 had a more robust sound then the 804D3 at half the price! Also while the tweeters are the same on the 702 and 705 the 702s had a much better mid-range and bass response as one would expect. Additionally I preferred the smaller center speaker then the larger one as the HTM71 seemed too overwhelming for my ears. But this new 7 series is very impressive and they are on my list to replace my B&W XT series that have been so excellent over the years.[/QUOTE


I've heard both speakers too and liked the 702s2's better also!

I'm waiting for the 700s2's to come out in the near future!



Last edited by musicman777; 09-11-2017 at 06:02 PM.
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post #25205 of 28106 Old 09-11-2017, 07:03 PM
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[quote=musicman777;54781856]
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Originally Posted by PCW View Post
I was at that Magnolia store today (Fairlakes) and was able to demo the new 702S2, 705S2 and both center channel (HTM71-S2 and HTM72-S2). Right next to the 702S2 were the 804D3s. We played musical tracks from the Eagles Hell Freezes Over DTS DVD. We switched between the Pioneer Elite LC-LX901 receiver and the Arcam 550 and 850. I noticed that the 702S2 had a more robust sound then the 804D3 at half the price! Also while the tweeters are the same on the 702 and 705 the 702s had a much better mid-range and bass response as one would expect. Additionally I preferred the smaller center speaker then the larger one as the HTM71 seemed too overwhelming for my ears. But this new 7 series is very impressive and they are on my list to replace my B&W XT series that have been so excellent over the years.[/QUOTE





I've heard both speakers too and liked the 702s2's better also!



I'm waiting for the 700s2's to come out in the near future!





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eiv8RIK14Uw


Does anyone else have input on this?

It seems nuts that the 804d3 would be outperformed by a speaker by the same company at half the price.

I'm waiting to listen..



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post #25206 of 28106 Old 09-11-2017, 08:10 PM
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[quote=Newbie789;54782220]
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Originally Posted by musicman777 View Post



Does anyone else have input on this?

It seems nuts that the 804d3 would be outperformed by a speaker by the same company at half the price.

I'm waiting to listen..



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I would reserve judgement until you have a chance to audition in person. I'm sure the 700 series is improved over the CM series but still inferior to the 800 series. Seems like every time the CM series (now 700) is refreshed these guys come in and play this tag team game.
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post #25207 of 28106 Old 09-11-2017, 08:54 PM
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Cool

What has changed with this all new 700 series!

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post #25208 of 28106 Old 09-11-2017, 09:41 PM
 
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[quote=Newbie789;54782220]
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Originally Posted by musicman777 View Post



Does anyone else have input on this?

It seems nuts that the 804d3 would be outperformed by a speaker by the same company at half the price.

I'm waiting to listen..



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After listening to and buying the 703 S2s, I no longer have the urge to get 804 D3s. Will be going straight to 803 D3s, once I'm done playing with 703s.
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post #25209 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 12:01 AM
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Have any of you tried out the HTM1 or 2? I've been debating on what center speaker to get. I already have the 805 D3s on the way and I figure the center speaker is the most important for movies so I might as well upgrade that now too.
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post #25210 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 06:05 AM
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Have any of you tried out the HTM1 or 2? I've been debating on what center speaker to get. I already have the 805 D3s on the way and I figure the center speaker is the most important for movies so I might as well upgrade that now too.
If the HTM71 S2 and HTM72 S2 are anything like the HTM61 S2 and HTM62 62, you are going to want the HTM71 S2.

The HTM61 S2 was a pretty big leap from the HTM62 S2.
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post #25211 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by musicman777 View Post
What has changed with this all new 700 series!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKK3dMe-Za0
I must have missed the changes..
Looks about the same.. a little of tweaks here and there, that's what I saw..
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post #25212 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 09:55 AM
 
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I must have missed the changes..
Looks about the same.. a little of tweaks here and there, that's what I saw..
Other than a rectangle box...
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post #25213 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 09:58 AM
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@adrummingdude

since you own all 3 lines of the upper B&W products, have you ever driven them using AVR amps?

i've always heard B&W speakers "requires" dedicated/separate amps to make them 'sing' and using AVR amps would be "wasted" on them.

is that also true of the 683s and 700s?

i currently own the much older and 'entry' level DM302 & DM303s and have only ever driven them using AVR amps (currently Denon 4308ci)

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post #25214 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post
@adrummingdude

since you own all 3 lines of the upper B&W products, have you ever driven them using AVR amps?

i've always heard B&W speakers "requires" dedicated/separate amps to make them 'sing' and using AVR amps would be "wasted" on them.

is that also true of the 683s and 700s?

i currently own the much older and 'entry' level DM302 & DM303s and have only ever driven them using AVR amps (currently Denon 4308ci)

Well, not all AVR's are created equally, that's for sure.

The answer to your question is yes. I have driven 683 S2's with a Pioneer SC-65 and 802 D2's with an Anthem MRX 720. I currently drive the 802 D2's with a Parasound Halo A21. I gave the CM9 S2's to my mom. She drives them with a Bluesound Powernode 2 (60wpc) and they sound great.

Especially in the case of the Anthem MRX 720, the built in amps sound really good. One just needs to get over the stigma of using a $2500 "receiver" (yes, I hate that word too, as do we all) to drive a pair of $15k speakers.

As far as the general rule that B&W speakers require separate amps...baloney. It depends on too many things to draw a general conclusion. I've driven B&W speakers with 2 receivers and probably 10 amps. They DO all sound different, but not always "better" in accordance with their price or rated power output. In fact, the built in Anthem AVR amps only lacked in full range dynamics at high levels in a large room. The dynamic headroom of the A21 at high levels is very noticeable, but if my room were smaller I would still be driving the 802's with a lowly receiver.

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post #25215 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 12:00 PM
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in a lot of reviews i've read for B&W lines they almost always insuinate how much power it is required in addition to break -in times.

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post #25216 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 12:04 PM
 
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in a lot of reviews i've read for B&W lines they almost always insuinate how much power it is required in addition to break -in times.
Most are wrong. It's not the power. 80 watts is plenty for all B&W speakers. But what one needs are quality amplifiers to get good sound. That excludes garbage like Denon or digital amps in Pioneer, etc. I always recommend Rotel as the best hidden secret in audio and priced right where B&W owners should be able to afford. And if you can't afford Rotel, then buy a Bose soundbar.
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post #25217 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 12:11 PM
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so i could get a rotel at 100W and it will sound better than 130w/ch from the big OEM brands?

how about monoprice monolith? i hear that's ATI rebranded. any thoughts?

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post #25218 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 12:21 PM
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so i could get a rotel at 100W and it will sound better than 130w/ch from the big OEM brands?
Possibly. I would encourage you to try both if possible, and let your ears decide.


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Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post
how about monoprice monolith? i hear that's ATI rebranded. any thoughts?
I have no experience with ATI, but they are regarded as making quality amplifiers. One word of caution though with comparatively inexpensive pieces of gear...there are ALWAYS going to be corners cut to meet a certain price point. So even though the monoprice amplifiers are made by ATI, there will still be a grand canyon sized gap in performance between those amplifiers and top of the line ATI offerings.

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Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post
so i could get a rotel at 100W and it will sound better than 130w/ch from the big OEM brands?

how about monoprice monolith? i hear that's ATI rebranded. any thoughts?
If we're talking about DM300s, none of this matters. Best sounding AVRs are Rotel and Yamaha. If you get something like the new B&W 700 line of speakers, you can use preouts on your AVR to connect countless high quality amplifiers. Starting with Rotel and ending with Goldmund.
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post #25220 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 01:03 PM
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too rich for my blood man hahahaha.... by even having separates... it is way 2much $ i am allowed to spend

those that are married all know =D

gotta hit the lottery for the good stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
Possibly. I would encourage you to try both if possible, and let your ears decide.




I have no experience with ATI, but they are regarded as making quality amplifiers. One word of caution though with comparatively inexpensive pieces of gear...there are ALWAYS going to be corners cut to meet a certain price point. So even though the monoprice amplifiers are made by ATI, there will still be a grand canyon sized gap in performance between those amplifiers and top of the line ATI offerings.
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post #25221 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 08:41 PM
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Not yet, but it's on my list. Usually, speakers with metallic midranges/midwoofers irritate me. Which is why I don't have any Paradigm, Revel, etc. on my list. Not always, but usually.
Interesting... for the life of me, and I'm not sure what it is, but I've honestly tried many times over the years to want to like B&W speakers, from the CMs to the 800s and for whatever reason, they just don't sound quite natural to my ears. I get turned off very quickly after a brief demo session. And I've heard demos at different dealers and room setups. I can only assume that B&W voice their speakers a certain way (their own house sound I guess) that many folks just like the way they sound. I will have to say that one thing I like about B&W speakers (the 800 series) is they image very well if set up properly...the speakers just disappears... and all you hear is music.... Also, I like how the 800 series look.

Some of the speakers that I've heard and like and sound natural to my ears are the Paradigm Signatures v3, Revel (Performa 3s, Salon), Wilson Audio, and YG Acoustics (heard them at a show). Focal Electras sound good too. Haven't heard the Magicos, but would like someday.
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post #25222 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 09:42 PM
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What would you recommend for a couple thousand? Right now I'm eyeing the Anthem MRX 1120 and 720. Is there a pre-pro + amp set up I could get for around the same price with similar features?



Yeah, my current apartment isn't that big so even my current set up with some old energy C-100Bs gets plenty loud which makes me hopefully the 805 D3 will be fine too.
Parasound Halo integrated is very good for a couple grand. It has HT bypass if you want to do that.
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Interesting... for the life of me, and I'm not sure what it is, but I've honestly tried many times over the years to want to like B&W speakers, from the CMs to the 800s and for whatever reason, they just don't sound quite natural to my ears. I get turned off very quickly after a brief demo session. And I've heard demos at different dealers and room setups. I can only assume that B&W voice their speakers a certain way (their own house sound I guess) that many folks just like the way they sound. I will have to say that one thing I like about B&W speakers (the 800 series) is they image very well if set up properly...the speakers just disappears... and all you hear is music.... Also, I like how the 800 series look.

Some of the speakers that I've heard and like and sound natural to my ears are the Paradigm Signatures v3, Revel (Performa 3s, Salon), Wilson Audio, and YG Acoustics (heard them at a show). Focal Electras sound good too. Haven't heard the Magicos, but would like someday.
Everyone hears slightly different and has their own preferences. That's perfectly fine. And is the reason why measurements and reviews are useless most of the time. B&W definitely has a house sound, just like every other manufacturer. Speakers you listed would be on the bottom of my list, yet they are on the top for you.

This forum tries to push some nonsensical thing like speakers need to measure flat and be tested blindfolded. What rubbish. Psycho acoustics is too complicated for child's play like that. Science (what insignificant amount we understand) should be used to get the initial design off the ground and then tweaked by a human ear. And then we should all get out and listen and buy whatever sounds good.
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post #25224 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 11:31 PM
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Everyone hears slightly different and has their own preferences. That's perfectly fine. And is the reason why measurements and reviews are useless most of the time. B&W definitely has a house sound, just like every other manufacturer. Speakers you listed would be on the bottom of my list, yet they are on the top for you.

This forum tries to push some nonsensical thing like speakers need to measure flat and be tested blindfolded. What rubbish. Psycho acoustics is too complicated for child's play like that. Science (what insignificant amount we understand) should be used to get the initial design off the ground and then tweaked by a human ear. And then we should all get out and listen and buy whatever sounds good.
There is a problem with your thesis, which is that Harman's testing has shown that under double blind conditions, a broad cross-section of listeners prefer speakers that measure flat...
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There is a problem with your thesis, which is that Harman's testing has shown that under double blind conditions, a broad cross-section of listeners prefer speakers that measure flat...
Harman's testing, speaker positioning machine, etc. is nothing more than a marketing ploy. It's rigged and people who participate are preconditioned and told what to listen for by Harman's team. And Harman chooses what doctored audio sample to play. It's all rubbish and a bunch of nonsense.

Revel speakers as well as the modern JBL pro monitors, theater, PA, and line arrays all sound lifeless to me. I'll take Klipsch or Danley any day of the week.

No one I know prefers flat. Most good sounding speakers have a slight BBC built in. Mastering engineers implement further BBC. Things such as Audyssey have undefeatable automatic BBC (I know their engineers). A live event recorded with a directional mic and played back on a flat speaker would burn holes in the grill. Would give the listener a haircut. A sunburn.
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post #25226 of 28106 Old 09-12-2017, 11:53 PM
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Harman's testing, speaker positioning machine, etc. is nothing more than a marketing ploy. It's rigged and people who participate are preconditioned and told what to listen for by Harman's team. And Harman chooses what doctored audio sample to play. It's all rubbish and a bunch of nonsense.
Not rubbish, and not nonsense. Their methodology is documented, published and scientifically rigorous.

Quote:
Revel speakers as well as the modern JBL pro monitors, theater, PA, and line arrays all sound lifeless to me. I'll take Klipsch or Danley any day of the week.
Fair, I guess. I can't tell you what you like or don't like. I would question whether you have some sighted bias kicking in.

Quote:
No one I know prefers flat. Most good sounding speakers have a slight BBC built in. Mastering engineers implement further BBC. Things such as Audyssey have undefeatable automatic BBC (I know their engineers). A live event recorded with a directional mic and played back on a flat speaker would burn holes in the grill. Would give the listener a haircut. A sunburn.
I'm not saying we want the *playback* to be flat, but unless the monitors are flat and the playback speakers are also flat, we're not accurately hearing what the the artist mixed! Live sound is, of course, EQd, well, live.
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Not rubbish, and not nonsense. Their methodology is documented, published and scientifically rigorous.



Fair, I guess. I can't tell you what you like or don't like. I would question whether you have some sighted bias kicking in.



I'm not saying we want the *playback* to be flat, but unless the monitors are flat and the playback speakers are also flat, we're not accurately hearing what the the artist mixed! Live sound is, of course, EQd, well, live.
Well documented and published by their marketing department!

And what if the mastering engineered mixed on a speaker that has huge BBC dip? Such as the B&W 800. You know, just about every high budget movie, including all Star Wars, was mixed on them. Abbey Road. And many others. You see how none of this matters? But if anything, more stuff has been mixed on non flat speakers, so flat speakers make music sound extra nasty, with extra energy right where the ear is most sensitive. My ears reject flat speakers within seconds. Most of the music I listen to and movies I watch sound better on speakers with BBC, such as any current B&Ws.
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post #25228 of 28106 Old 09-13-2017, 01:59 AM
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so i could get a rotel at 100W and it will sound better than 130w/ch from the big OEM brands?

how about monoprice monolith? i hear that's ATI rebranded. any thoughts?
I used a Marant PM 11 S3 to drive my 803 D2, CM 6 S2 with no fuss and they sounded great. "only" 100W per channel into 8 ohms.
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post #25229 of 28106 Old 09-13-2017, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post
Well documented and published by their marketing department!



And what if the mastering engineered mixed on a speaker that has huge BBC dip? Such as the B&W 800. You know, just about every high budget movie, including all Star Wars, was mixed on them. Abbey Road. And many others. You see how none of this matters? But if anything, more stuff has been mixed on non flat speakers, so flat speakers make music sound extra nasty, with extra energy right where the ear is most sensitive. My ears reject flat speakers within seconds. Most of the music I listen to and movies I watch sound better on speakers with BBC, such as any current B&Ws.


Personally I think flat speakers sound boring compared to the B&W sound....thats specifically why we bought the B&W.


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post #25230 of 28106 Old 09-13-2017, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post
Well documented and published by their marketing department!

And what if the mastering engineered mixed on a speaker that has huge BBC dip? Such as the B&W 800. You know, just about every high budget movie, including all Star Wars, was mixed on them. Abbey Road. And many others. You see how none of this matters? But if anything, more stuff has been mixed on non flat speakers, so flat speakers make music sound extra nasty, with extra energy right where the ear is most sensitive. My ears reject flat speakers within seconds. Most of the music I listen to and movies I watch sound better on speakers with BBC, such as any current B&Ws.
I've spent my entire career in the Hollywood theatrical sound community: dubbing stages are calibrated to the X-Curve. If there *was* a BBC dip in their monitors, it would be EQd out when the stage is calibrated. And by far the most common speakers on Hollywood dubbing stages are JBL (although there is a lot of competition here - Meyer Sound is also popular, and others. B&W not so much, despite their prominence on the scoring stage at Abbey Road).

And speaking of marketing - how much do you suppose B&W has paid Abbey Road over the years to keep those 800s front and center?

I don't mean to be overly critical - I like B&W and am using a set of 600 S2 for my primary 5.1 system.
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