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post #27811 of 27837 Old 03-23-2020, 07:11 AM
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So is the HTM17 S2 that bad?


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TV: Sony XBR-85X850G, Receiver: Anthem MRX 720, Bluray: Panasonic DP-UB820, Conditioner: Panamax M4300-PM, Speakers: B&W CM4 Fronts, CMC center, CM2 Surrounds, Sub: SVS PB1-ISD & Remote: Harmony One
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post #27812 of 27837 Old 03-23-2020, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Yea another option for music is also the CM10's + HTM1D3 using Anthem's "all channel stereo" mode.

By the way, the Anthem is fantastic for something where you want movies and music due to its virtual inputs. You can configure a single source to have 2 separate inputs. For example, over here I have:

Input name: PC Video
Input source: HDMI 1
Input profile: speaker profile 1
- profile 1 has:
- All 11 speakers are enabled
- Crossovers are all set to 80hz
- Sub volume is -10
- Room correction on
- 2 channel is converted to dolby surround

Input name: PC Audio
Input source: HDMI 1 (same physical input)
Input profile: speaker profile 2
- profile 2 has:
- left right front speakers enabled.
- left right surround enabled
- subwoofer enabled
- subwoofer crossover at 60hz
- left and right surround levels set to -6 (better for slight rear fill)
- subwoofer level set to +6
- 2 channel audio is not converted to dolby surround but into all channel stereo
- Room correction is OFF

Now you can one button switch inputs between the two as if they were actual different inputs.

Anyways, if you do go audition the 702S2's hopefully they have a receiver there where you can test movies with phantom center (and stand right in between the two 702s2's). The htm71 drivers are very small and that center really lacks all chest slam. The 702s2s are just way more powerful sounding and would probably yield a better "fake" center than adding the htm71. Of course the HTM1D3 is just in a class of its own.

I don’t think the 7 series and the HTM1D3 match. They are sonically two very different speakers.

Also I know you like Phanton center but you have to mention that it ONLY works if there is just one MLP and no one else is watching along with the OP.


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post #27813 of 27837 Old 03-23-2020, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hery19 View Post
So is the HTM17 S2 that bad?


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I asked the same question a few weeks ago after I demoed it, thinking I was missing something. I found it to be capable and have since purchased it, and have enjoyed it. Seems there are a few people that really dislike it. YMMV, but I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase it again.
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post #27814 of 27837 Old 03-23-2020, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by hery19 View Post
So is the HTM17 S2 that bad?
It’s not that it’s super bad. But it would be out classed by a phantom center created by two 702s2. Why pay more for a center when your fronts make a better one for free?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
I don’t think the 7 series and the HTM1D3 match. They are sonically two very different speakers.

Also I know you like Phanton center but you have to mention that it ONLY works if there is just one MLP and no one else is watching along with the OP.
Friend had 4 702s2 and 1 htm1d3. Sounds fantastic. The timbre match is fine. I started with 2 cm9 and 1 htm1d3. Timbre match there was still pretty good.

The phantom center is great for the main listening position. All other people in the room will be blown away by the home theater almost no matter what you have for gear. It’s not really worth spending a lot of money to appease guests who mostly can’t tell the difference either way. I have tested off center use of the phantom center in my room quite a bit. In general it still works fine. It’s optimal for person in center though.
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post #27815 of 27837 Old 03-23-2020, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
It’s not that it’s super bad. But it would be out classed by a phantom center created by two 702s2. Why pay more for a center when your fronts make a better one for free?



Friend had 4 702s2 and 1 htm1d3. Sounds fantastic. The timbre match is fine. I started with 2 cm9 and 1 htm1d3. Timbre match there was still pretty good.

The phantom center is great for the main listening position. All other people in the room will be blown away by the home theater almost no matter what you have for gear. It’s not really worth spending a lot of money to appease guests who mostly can’t tell the difference either way. I have tested off center use of the phantom center in my room quite a bit. In general it still works fine. It’s optimal for person in center though.

So what you guys are basically saying the 702s are very good compared to the HTM71!


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post #27816 of 27837 Old 03-24-2020, 02:24 AM
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Hello Guys,

This is my first post on the forum. I tried looking for answers for my query but unfortunately, there were no threads that could have answered them. If I have missed them, my apologies. Here is my situation:

I bought a Rotel 12A amplifier back in 2014 with two B&W 685 S2 book shelf speakers from a dealership in US. I have only used my sound system all these very occasionally as I had to move a lot. I have never played at more than 45-50 on the volume. So far, as long as I think, I was ignorant, it was OK. Recently, I saw a video on Youtube where it was advised that when buying amps and speakers, then amplifier should be capable delivering at least 50% more power than the speakers continuous power output. I have checked the specifications of RA 12 and B&W 685 S2 and those are as follows:

Rotel RA 12

Continuous Power Output - 60 watts/ch (RA-12)
(20 - 20k Hz, < 0.03%, 8 ohms)

B&W 685 S2

Recommended amplifier power: 25W - 100W into 8Ω on unclipped program

From what I have read that running an under-powered amplifier with a high power speaker will damage the speakers. So basically, to run B&W 685 S2 (Output power 100 W), an amplifier should be capable of delivering at least of 150 W of continuous power output. So I am currently pretty much confused. I know that I have experienced no issues with my system but that is because I have not used the system much and have never driven the volume to 70% or more!

Since, I bought this system from an authorized dealer, I am pretty sure the sales guys knew what they were recommending to me. Still, I would be very happy if members in here can advise me if my speakers are safe to run with Rotel 12A (@ 60W/channel).

Thank you for your advise and time.

A
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post #27817 of 27837 Old 03-24-2020, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abist View Post
Hello Guys,

This is my first post on the forum. I tried looking for answers for my query but unfortunately, there were no threads that could have answered them. If I have missed them, my apologies. Here is my situation:

I bought a Rotel 12A amplifier back in 2014 with two B&W 685 S2 book shelf speakers from a dealership in US. I have only used my sound system all these very occasionally as I had to move a lot. I have never played at more than 45-50 on the volume. So far, as long as I think, I was ignorant, it was OK. Recently, I saw a video on Youtube where it was advised that when buying amps and speakers, then amplifier should be capable delivering at least 50% more power than the speakers continuous power output. I have checked the specifications of RA 12 and B&W 685 S2 and those are as follows:

Rotel RA 12

Continuous Power Output - 60 watts/ch (RA-12)
(20 - 20k Hz, < 0.03%, 8 ohms)

B&W 685 S2

Recommended amplifier power: 25W - 100W into 8Ω on unclipped program

From what I have read that running an under-powered amplifier with a high power speaker will damage the speakers. So basically, to run B&W 685 S2 (Output power 100 W), an amplifier should be capable of delivering at least of 150 W of continuous power output. So I am currently pretty much confused. I know that I have experienced no issues with my system but that is because I have not used the system much and have never driven the volume to 70% or more!

Since, I bought this system from an authorized dealer, I am pretty sure the sales guys knew what they were recommending to me. Still, I would be very happy if members in here can advise me if my speakers are safe to run with Rotel 12A (@ 60W/channel).

Thank you for your advise and time.

A
Your Rotel amp will be a great match for those speakers. Don't worry.

An under powered amp will only damage your speakers if you're cranking it so loud that you're sending distortion into your speakers. If this isn't happening then you have no risk of damaging your speakers with that amp. 60 watts per channel is a decent amount of power. You'd be surprised probably just how little power you actually use. If you really want to know, go grab a cheap watt meter that plugs into the wall and a powered device plugs into it. With nothing going you can read the idle wattage drain. Then play something and see how high it goes. Subtract and you get the basic amount of watts you're using. I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually only around 1 watt per channel.

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post #27818 of 27837 Old 03-24-2020, 04:28 AM
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Hi abist,

I work for the distributor of Bowers & Wilkins and Rotel. Under normal circumstances you will have no problems running the RA-12 with 685S2. Power is needed to play loudly. For those who insist on running their systems on the ragged edge of survivability (that's not how I'd describe you) having more power allows your speaker to reach it's full potential for converting power into sound. However, you can reach a point where a speaker cannot possibly play any louder due to inherent mechanical limitations, and any louder will result in destroying the speaker. Fortunately for us, speakers tell us that we've done something bad with the volume control by making really unnatural and nasty noises. That's where sensible people turn down the volume and the others turn it up while yelling "Freebird!!!" You're not that guy.

Cheers,

Patrick


Quote:
Originally Posted by abist View Post
Hello Guys,

This is my first post on the forum. I tried looking for answers for my query but unfortunately, there were no threads that could have answered them. If I have missed them, my apologies. Here is my situation:

I bought a Rotel 12A amplifier back in 2014 with two B&W 685 S2 book shelf speakers from a dealership in US. I have only used my sound system all these very occasionally as I had to move a lot. I have never played at more than 45-50 on the volume. So far, as long as I think, I was ignorant, it was OK. Recently, I saw a video on Youtube where it was advised that when buying amps and speakers, then amplifier should be capable delivering at least 50% more power than the speakers continuous power output. I have checked the specifications of RA 12 and B&W 685 S2 and those are as follows:

Rotel RA 12

Continuous Power Output - 60 watts/ch (RA-12)
(20 - 20k Hz, < 0.03%, 8 ohms)

B&W 685 S2

Recommended amplifier power: 25W - 100W into 8Ω on unclipped program

From what I have read that running an under-powered amplifier with a high power speaker will damage the speakers. So basically, to run B&W 685 S2 (Output power 100 W), an amplifier should be capable of delivering at least of 150 W of continuous power output. So I am currently pretty much confused. I know that I have experienced no issues with my system but that is because I have not used the system much and have never driven the volume to 70% or more!

Since, I bought this system from an authorized dealer, I am pretty sure the sales guys knew what they were recommending to me. Still, I would be very happy if members in here can advise me if my speakers are safe to run with Rotel 12A (@ 60W/channel).

Thank you for your advise and time.

A
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post #27819 of 27837 Old 03-24-2020, 10:43 PM
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Thank you!

Dear Mark and Patrick,

Thank you for your valuable replies. I was worried if I will have to either change my amplifier or the speakers but you guys saved the day for me. Thank you so much! :-)

A
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post #27820 of 27837 Old 03-25-2020, 01:56 PM
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What would be a good surround for 5.1. Fronts I have 805D3 HTM2D3. I consider this 606, 607, 706 or 707.

All front elements its 6,5", if its okay to use back 5.25"?

Surround will be very close, next to the couch.

room its about 13x14ft.


Any recommendation?.

Thank you.
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post #27821 of 27837 Old 03-26-2020, 06:43 PM
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Hey everyone,

Moving into a new home and sold off all most of my B&W setup a few months ago so I didn't need to move them. Was debating between the KEF R11s and the 702s as my L/R. Hearing them at magnolia side by side I just loved the sound from the 702s more(shame as the R11s are huge and look stunning) anyway...

Here is my new floor plan:


Looking for recommendations for surround speakers and placement. I still have my CM6 I can use as rears or use them as a dedicated 2ch for another room and use something else. Also might do ceiling speakers for atoms down the line.

Where and how would you place the surround. I am having issues trying to see where to place them.
Also recommendations for a center for the 702s and ceiling to match?

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post #27822 of 27837 Old 03-26-2020, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SodomySquirrel View Post
Hey everyone,

Moving into a new home and sold off all most of my B&W setup a few months ago so I didn't need to move them. Was debating between the KEF R11s and the 702s as my L/R. Hearing them at magnolia side by side I just loved the sound from the 702s more(shame as the R11s are huge and look stunning) anyway...

Here is my new floor plan:


Looking for recommendations for surround speakers and placement. I still have my CM6 I can use as rears or use them as a dedicated 2ch for another room and use something else. Also might do ceiling speakers for atoms down the line.

Where and how would you place the surround. I am having issues trying to see where to place them.
Also recommendations for a center for the 702s and ceiling to match?

Did you audition the 705s and the HTM71?


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TV: Sony XBR-85X850G, Receiver: Anthem MRX 720, Bluray: Panasonic DP-UB820, Conditioner: Panamax M4300-PM, Speakers: B&W CM4 Fronts, CMC center, CM2 Surrounds, Sub: SVS PB1-ISD & Remote: Harmony One
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post #27823 of 27837 Old 03-26-2020, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by hery19 View Post
Did you audition the 705s and the HTM71?


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No I did not get to listen to the 705s or the HTM71. I would feel like the 705s2(like my CM6s2) would be overkill as surround. Reading this thread, alot of you guys feel the HTM71 is underpowered to match the 702s
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post #27824 of 27837 Old 03-29-2020, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Staafe100 View Post
What would be a good surround for 5.1. Fronts I have 805D3 HTM2D3. I consider this 606, 607, 706 or 707.

All front elements its 6,5", if its okay to use back 5.25"?

Surround will be very close, next to the couch.

room its about 13x14ft.


Any recommendation?.

Thank you.
I have a 700 S2 set-up and my room is 22 x 14. My 7.2 surrounds are 707's work fine. I did try some 706's after living with the 707's for a year. Found the 706 a little better, but not enough to change. Plus the bigger speaker made moving by the couch and speaker a pain. So I stayed with the 707.
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post #27825 of 27837 Old 03-30-2020, 09:52 PM
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What do you guys suggest to listen to as a center to match the 702s? I see lots of you guys don't like it..
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post #27826 of 27837 Old 03-30-2020, 10:31 PM
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I see 2 options.

Matching HTM71 S2 center.
Or one of the D3 centers.

Buy whichever you can afford.
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post #27827 of 27837 Old Yesterday, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SodomySquirrel View Post
What do you guys suggest to listen to as a center to match the 702s? I see lots of you guys don't like it..
The HTM71 is the matching center. Unfortunately, due to the use of smaller drivers, this center has less presence and oomph than running the 702S2 in phantom center mode and just doing without a center. The HTM2D3 and HTM1D3 are both upgrades far better centers but cost is a lot more. The HTM1D3 is a big upgrade from 702S2 phantom center. The HTM2D3 I haven't heard side by side with 702S2 and can't directly compare.

I actually think a system that had 702S2 and HTM71 sounds *worse* than a system with just 702S2's running phantom/virtual center. The 700 series really misses out. It needs a center that consists of 2 6" aero woofers, 1 6" continuum mid, and 1 carbon dome tweeter (basically a 703s2 in a center box).
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post #27828 of 27837 Old Yesterday, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SodomySquirrel View Post
What do you guys suggest to listen to as a center to match the 702s? I see lots of you guys don't like it..

Listen to the 700 series center - it is not bad. I had it for a short time before I switch my LCR to the 800 series - and I don’t think it is lacking.

Especially if you have EQ, Room Correction, Bass management done correctly.


I have the HTM2 D3 paired to 804 D3 and the HTM2 is fabulous and never have i felt anything missing.
But now you are talking approximately 2.5x the cost.

Most stores like Best Buy and some smaller boutique will let you test drive the speakers at your home. Try it out and see for yourself. You would want a movie like Batman or interstellar (basically Nolan movies where the dialogs are generally f’d up) to test it out properly. If they play well you can rest assured everything else will by okay.


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post #27829 of 27837 Old Yesterday, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
Listen to the 700 series center - it is not bad. I had it for a short time before I switch my LCR to the 800 series - and I don’t think it is lacking.

Especially if you have EQ, Room Correction, Bass management done correctly.


I have the HTM2 D3 paired to 804 D3 and the HTM2 is fabulous and never have i felt anything missing.
But now you are talking approximately 2.5x the cost.

Most stores like Best Buy and some smaller boutique will let you test drive the speakers at your home. Try it out and see for yourself. You would want a movie like Batman or interstellar (basically Nolan movies where the dialogs are generally f’d up) to test it out properly. If they play well you can rest assured everything else will by okay.
Have you spent time comparing phantom center to real center with 702S2 and HTM71? As I said, the HTM71 is an ok center. But the 702S2's outclass it. The 804D3's and HTM2D3's are a perfect match, but 802D3's via phantom center also outclass an HTM2D3 center. This means that the system still can sound great with the center added, but actually sounds superior with it removed. I'm a strong believer that if you're going to use a center, it needs to be your best speaker or at least equivalent to your best speakers otherwise you're better off without it.

My thinking is it just doesn't make sense to own 702S2's and then spend additional money to buy another speaker that actually results in a worse result than if you say bought nothing and went without. The 702S2's are quite warm sounding and can provide a decent amount of mid-bass chest slam. While the HTM71 is quite clear for dialog, it really can't provide the chest slam that the 702S2's provide.

My suggestion is anyone with 702S2 fronts should go phantom center and hold out until you can afford an HTM2D3 at minimum. 702S2 + no center > 702S2 + HTM71. 702S2 + HTM2D3 > 702S2 + no center.
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post #27830 of 27837 Old Yesterday, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Have you spent time comparing phantom center to real center with 702S2 and HTM71? As I said, the HTM71 is an ok center. But the 702S2's outclass it. The 804D3's and HTM2D3's are a perfect match, but 802D3's via phantom center also outclass an HTM2D3 center. This means that the system still can sound great with the center added, but actually sounds superior with it removed. I'm a strong believer that if you're going to use a center, it needs to be your best speaker or at least equivalent to your best speakers otherwise you're better off without it.

My thinking is it just doesn't make sense to own 702S2's and then spend additional money to buy another speaker that actually results in a worse result than if you say bought nothing and went without. The 702S2's are quite warm sounding and can provide a decent amount of mid-bass chest slam. While the HTM71 is quite clear for dialog, it really can't provide the chest slam that the 702S2's provide.

My suggestion is anyone with 702S2 fronts should go phantom center and hold out until you can afford an HTM2D3 at minimum. 702S2 + no center > 702S2 + HTM71. 702S2 + HTM2D3 > 702S2 + no center.
Come on man .. you know phantom channel only works for the corner case when you have only one listening position. If you have a situation where there are two or three LPs that solution goes out of the door. I can guarantee you that in my room 802s acting as a center will NOT outperform my HTM2D3. You say that most people wont notice the lacking center channel - but i dont quite agree. My four year old when I took out the center (an old 600 series speaker) from my living room TV setup - said Dad why did you take out the speaker, i cant listen to what Rider (Paw Patrol reference!!!) is saying. This with two 705 S2s.


Most room EQs like Anthem which I believe you also have, will cross over the center at about 80 hz. HTM71 has an F3 of ~50Hz which is more than enough for a good subwoofer cross over and integration, and the HTM71 can easily and does cover the mid bass (140Hz - 300 Hz) quite well with its two drivers.

I dont need 'chest slam' from my center speaker - I need vocal clarity. If you want chest slam add more subwoofers

Irrespective the OP should listen to the HTM71 S2 and see if it is good or bad. For the two weeks or so I have HTM71 for a test drive I was perfectly happy with it. If it werent for my desire to upgrade my LR to the 800 series (for music), I would have kept the HTM71.

Also i said this earlier as well, HTM71 is 1500, HTM2D3 is 4000, thats a big price differential - and might not be everyone's cup of team. Plus HTM2 D3 is much bigger than HTM71, HTM1 is even bigger - so that might also not work for all use cases.

Look in the end its all subjective - so i am happy to agree to disagree. OP should listen to the HTM71 and see if it make sense or not for his own use case.

Gear: Fronts: B&W 804D3 | Center: B&W HTM2D3 | Surrounds: B&W 705S2 | Backs: B&W 684S2 | Heights: B&W DM601S3 | Subs: 3x PSA S1500 Receiver & Amps: Anthem MRX 720 + Monoprice Monolith 7x200 + Emotiva BasX-5 | Projector: JVC NX7 | Screen: 126 inch 16:9 Stewart Studiotek 130 G4 | Source: HTPC with Nvidia 2070, Kodi + External Player: MPC-HC with MadVR (for Blu-ray rips), Nvidia Shield (for streaming content)

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post #27831 of 27837 Old Yesterday, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
Come on man .. you know phantom channel only works for the corner case when you have only one listening position. If you have a situation where there are two or three LPs that solution goes out of the door. I can guarantee you that in my room 802s acting as a center will NOT outperform my HTM2D3. You say that most people wont notice the lacking center channel - but i dont quite agree. My four year old when I took out the center (an old 600 series speaker) from my living room TV setup - said Dad why did you take out the speaker, i cant listen to what Rider (Paw Patrol reference!!!) is saying. This with two 705 S2s.


Most room EQs like Anthem which I believe you also have, will cross over the center at about 80 hz. HTM71 has an F3 of ~50Hz which is more than enough for a good subwoofer cross over and integration, and the HTM71 can easily and does cover the mid bass (140Hz - 300 Hz) quite well with its two drivers.

I dont need 'chest slam' from my center speaker - I need vocal clarity. If you want chest slam add more subwoofers

Irrespective the OP should listen to the HTM71 S2 and see if it is good or bad. For the two weeks or so I have HTM71 for a test drive I was perfectly happy with it. If it werent for my desire to upgrade my LR to the 800 series (for music), I would have kept the HTM71.

Also i said this earlier as well, HTM71 is 1500, HTM2D3 is 4000, thats a big price differential - and might not be everyone's cup of team. Plus HTM2 D3 is much bigger than HTM71, HTM1 is even bigger - so that might also not work for all use cases.

Look in the end its all subjective - so i am happy to agree to disagree. OP should listen to the HTM71 and see if it make sense or not for his own use case.
Yea the HTM71 is rated to 50hz just like my 802D3's are rated to 17hz. To be honest, 17hz on my 802D3's is laughable. I can give them a 20hz wave and yes the drivers are moving, but you hear and feel nothing. They're really only good to about 40 hz. The mid bass chest slam I'm referring to is a higher frequency than a sub can produce. The smaller drivers in the HTM71 just cannot handle it. It's nothing you can leave to your sub. It is something added to by the sub. Transformers 2 is one of the best examples of this. It has loud sounds in all ranges of the frequency spectrum. In the beginning scene is a scene on primitive earth with a transformer battling a bunch of Neanderthals. It stops its foot down then stomps down a metal pole. With proper mid range speakers you can feel all that even the 200-250 hz thumps down of the pole. Something like the HTM71 just lacks in those scenes and it makes it sound like you subs are strong but the rest is lacking.

Have you actually played around with phantom center? From all seating positions in my room it's far better than I would have expected. But even if it's just for the main listening position, in most cases, only the main listening position is the person buying the equipment. And that's the only person that's super critical of the sound. From what I've found, most everyone else is super impressed no matter what and doesn't really care.

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Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, Infinite Baffle Subs 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 2x12 fi audio mounted in main chair firing into back.
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post #27832 of 27837 Old Yesterday, 02:16 PM
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I have the 702 S2 and finally picked up the HTM71 S2 last Friday. I guess I am stuck at home too much and Crutchfield free two day shipping was also a winner. (ordered Wednesday and received Friday) Kudos to Crutchfield. They are sort of the go to net site if you want quick delivery of speakers and the 30 day trial. well enough of the plug..

I had the 702 S2 for a number of months running no center. My sitting position isn't exactly optimum. I have two large awesome recliners with an oversized round table in between. Like one of those large tall round tables you might see in someones grand entryway.

So neither recliner is center. I always sit in the left recliner. Now what's pretty interesting the left recliner gets a damn perfect phantom image. The 702 S2 do an outstanding job the way they are set up and what I get from the left recliner. I might agree with markmon 1 that the imaging is superb without the center. That's until you move into the right recliner. It's gone. Nothing like the left side recliner. It's just the way it is..

I didn't really buy the HTM71 S2 to fix that per se but I do believe you get a lot of info coming out of a pair of speakers that are better suited for three.

I have been using it for several days now and it's pretty good. Nothing to complain about really and I need to give it more time and maybe a little run-in time as well. It sounds very good when listening to movies 4k disc, HBO or streaming. it really does but it does sound a little more "boxy" than I am accustomed to. Especially when watching regular ole TV which is part of my listening diet and needs to be taken in to discussion. I have about 8 games from last NFL season recorded and it's not as "free from box" as i would like. I actually get drawn into it on occasion, looking down at the center but really I seem to be enjoying it. I think in another week I might come back and give an update.

I have to say I had the latest KEF R series center I was using with some LS50s I have (now rears) and it is one of the better mid-class, mid priced centers I have encountered. They actually went away from a large and small center in their latest R line and perhaps that is due the speaker being an excellent above average player.

So for the 702 S2 phantom scenario. Maybe yes if you have the seating right for more than 1 or you just don't care. I think you are better set getting the center. It does match and pan really really well with the 702 S2. These speakers are terrific. I will give it a bit more time to give final judgement on the HTM71. It sure is a pretty robust great looking center as well if i forgot to say that. I need to get Ford vs Ferrari on for the true test.
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Last edited by Mr.SoftDome; Yesterday at 02:21 PM.
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post #27833 of 27837 Old Yesterday, 03:14 PM
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One significant issue with center channels is location. They are often located in sub-optimal positions that include proximity to furniture that resonates (causing excessive noise that harms dialog) or causes reflections that also result in distortions that harm dialog. Here are a few tips that I've deployed over the years to good effect.

Pencil erasers and rubber door stops are a great way to decouple and isolate a center channel from furniture They also give you the ability to change the rake angle of the front baffle so that the speaker is angled up towards the listener if below your head, or down towards the listener if the center channel is located higher.

I've also found that pulling the center channel forward so that the front of the speaker is slightly forward of a shelf can really improve dialog intelligibility.

Best regards,

Patrick
Bowers & Wilkins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.SoftDome View Post
I have the 702 S2 and finally picked up the HTM71 S2 last Friday. I guess I am stuck at home too much and Crutchfield free two day shipping was also a winner. (ordered Wednesday and received Friday) Kudos to Crutchfield. They are sort of the go to net site if you want quick delivery of speakers and the 30 day trial. well enough of the plug..

I had the 702 S2 for a number of months running no center. My sitting position isn't exactly optimum. I have two large awesome recliners with an oversized round table in between. Like one of those large tall round tables you might see in someones grand entryway.

So neither recliner is center. I always sit in the left recliner. Now what's pretty interesting the left recliner gets a damn perfect phantom image. The 702 S2 do an outstanding job the way they are set up and what I get from the left recliner. I might agree with markmon 1 that the imaging is superb without the center. That's until you move into the right recliner. It's gone. Nothing like the left side recliner. It's just the way it is..

I didn't really buy the HTM71 S2 to fix that per se but I do believe you get a lot of info coming out of a pair of speakers that are better suited for three.

I have been using it for several days now and it's pretty good. Nothing to complain about really and I need to give it more time and maybe a little run-in time as well. It sounds very good when listening to movies 4k disc, HBO or streaming. it really does but it does sound a little more "boxy" than I am accustomed to. Especially when watching regular ole TV which is part of my listening diet and needs to be taken in to discussion. I have about 8 games from last NFL season recorded and it's not as "free from box" as i would like. I actually get drawn into it on occasion, looking down at the center but really I seem to be enjoying it. I think in another week I might come back and give an update.

I have to say I had the latest KEF R series center I was using with some LS50s I have (now rears) and it is one of the better mid-class, mid priced centers I have encountered. They actually went away from a large and small center in their latest R line and perhaps that is due the speaker being an excellent above average player.

So for the 702 S2 phantom scenario. Maybe yes if you have the seating right for more than 1 or you just don't care. I think you are better set getting the center. It does match and pan really really well with the 702 S2. These speakers are terrific. I will give it a bit more time to give final judgement on the HTM71. It sure is a pretty robust great looking center as well if i forgot to say that. I need to get Ford vs Ferrari on for the true test.
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post #27834 of 27837 Old Yesterday, 05:00 PM
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Yea the HTM71 is rated to 50hz just like my 802D3's are rated to 17hz. To be honest, 17hz on my 802D3's is laughable.
Could it be your room?

My 804 are not as capable as your 802 but they do go down to 32 Hz quite well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post

Transformers 2 is one of the best examples of this. It has loud sounds in all ranges of the frequency spectrum.
Never saw the movie with 7 series center so cant say. My HTM2 has no issues with the movie

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post

Have you actually played around with phantom center?
Yes as I said in my living room I went from a 6 series center paired to my 705 S2 and even my 4 YO hates the setup now

My wife is a semi-audiophile as well and would notice the lack of precise center imaging


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Gear: Fronts: B&W 804D3 | Center: B&W HTM2D3 | Surrounds: B&W 705S2 | Backs: B&W 684S2 | Heights: B&W DM601S3 | Subs: 3x PSA S1500 Receiver & Amps: Anthem MRX 720 + Monoprice Monolith 7x200 + Emotiva BasX-5 | Projector: JVC NX7 | Screen: 126 inch 16:9 Stewart Studiotek 130 G4 | Source: HTPC with Nvidia 2070, Kodi + External Player: MPC-HC with MadVR (for Blu-ray rips), Nvidia Shield (for streaming content)
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post #27835 of 27837 Old Yesterday, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
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Could it be your room?

My 804 are not as capable as your 802 but they do go down to 32 Hz quite well.
No. This was tested in several rooms as well as the dealer's display rooms. Here is a good test we used. Take this song:
Compare the riff from 30-34 seconds to that around 58-60 seconds. If you have a proper sub hooked up, you will get *very powerful* low rumbles. On my infinite baffle subs, the low rumble blurs my vision. I bet on your 804D3's this sounds almost the same on those two sections. Even many professional subs won't play this well. On the 802D3's, these low notes are pretty much missing. If you remove the grills you can feel the woofers moving though they are just so rolled off at this range. I think this note is around 25-30 hz.


Quote:
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Never saw the movie with 7 series center so cant say. My HTM2 has no issues with the movie
Of course it doesn't. Your HTM2D3 is a $3500 center and is in a completely different class than the HTM71. HTM2D3 is what I recommended for owners of 702S2 speakers for a proper center.

You have good points on the off-room-center use for phantom centers. Most of us in home theater sit properly centered to the screen and are the only enthusiast in the household. When I make a change and show my wife, I usually get "it sounds nice Honey" and that's it. My kids are fine using their phones. I think your situation where your wife is an enthusiast is somewhat unique (but awesome!).
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Video: JVC RS4500 135" ST130 G4 screen in batcave, htpc nvidia 1080ti madVR.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, Infinite Baffle Subs 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 2x12 fi audio mounted in main chair firing into back.
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post #27836 of 27837 Old Today, 12:19 AM
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I'm considering the CT800 series as LCR speakers, CT8.2 or CT8.4.

What would be the best surround/atmos speakers for these series. They need to be inwall/ceiling speakers. Would it be better to use the older speakers like CCM818/816, CWM8180 or is it better to use the new CI700 series.

I'm asking this because the new CI700 series have totally different drivers then the CT800 series and the maybe the older inwall/ceiling speakers are a better match with the CT800 speakers.

The CI800 are out of the question, backboxes are way to big.

Whats your opinion on this???
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post #27837 of 27837 Old Today, 02:36 PM
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One significant issue with center channels is location. They are often located in sub-optimal positions that include proximity to furniture that resonates (causing excessive noise that harms dialog) or causes reflections that also result in distortions that harm dialog. Here are a few tips that I've deployed over the years to good effect.

Pencil erasers and rubber door stops are a great way to decouple and isolate a center channel from furniture They also give you the ability to change the rake angle of the front baffle so that the speaker is angled up towards the listener if below your head, or down towards the listener if the center channel is located higher.

I've also found that pulling the center channel forward so that the front of the speaker is slightly forward of a shelf can really improve dialog intelligibility.

Best regards,

Patrick
Bowers & Wilkins

Thanks Patrick , still very happy with my 702 & 71 center. Pointing in a little up really works.


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