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4M views 30K replies 3K participants last post by  Tank_PD 
#1 ·
I noticed that I hadn't seen B&W OWNER'S thread , but that there are a lot of owners on this forum and I think that the consistant bashing from about 4 posters makes people hesitant to get involved in any of the many threads that keep getting nasty. So, to that end, I think that if there was a thread where the Lovefest could be conducted without bothering NON-owners and the bashers weren't welcome, maybe some good info could come out of it.


My challenge would be to ask people here to keep it civil and that if you don't like B&W there is no point in you being here. If you want to talk about other comporables, start another thread.


For the record, I am a B&W dealer , and most know this, and as such , if I can find out any important info on the brand or certain models, I will be happy to. Don't , however, post or pm me regarding sales, I don't use threads as advertising for my business, and I won't sell you anything .


So what do you own and how is it set-up?
 
#18,581 ·
Hi Jon,


The cabinet is made of birch, and the veneer is made of Cherry, or in the case of the Rosenut finish- Walnut. Gloss black cabinets are lacquered.


Best,


Patrick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24797761


Hi Patrick,


The B&W video says 20 layers of birch. Not that it matters much, as the grain patterns in cherry and birch are similar and it's stained anyway, right? Birch is typically lighter (quite white) than heartwood cherry, so if the cherry cabinets aren't stained, the outside layer should be much darker than the inner layers. Another way to tell is to see if the grain is bookmatched for pairs of speakers, as this is common practice when using hardwood veneers. I don't remember seeing much in the way of grain on the Rosenut 802's we looked at.
 
#18,582 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24795900


While the cabinet is made of birch in the 800 Series, the cherry veneer is actually cherry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24797810


The cabinet is made of birch, and the veneer is made of Cherry, or in the case of the Rosenut finish- Walnut. Gloss black cabinets are lacquered.

This is interesting, I didn't realize the cherry was actually cherry over birch. I knew the rosenut was a stain but I thought there was no additional veneer. Intersting to see there is a veneer also. Learn something new every day



A quick question about the rosenut stain, is this an industry standard color of sorts? I ask because all 5 of my 800 series speakers match perfectly with the rosenut stain on my Paradigm Servo 15's. Perhaps it's just a coincidence.
 
#18,583 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24797599


The experiment you propose is fundamentally flawed. Do you know why? I'll give you a hint. When one factor is under test, all other factors must remain constant. So again, can you design a test which will unequivocally demonstrate that you can or cannot discern channels of a well built amp in DBT?


And again, you may be able to measure output voltage differences, but is that difference audible? You're a EE, you should be able to estimate what the output difference is between channels and how that translates into dB differences. You should also be able to tell me the threshold for audible differences in SPLs.

Factors don't remain constant in this case. Preamp voltage fluctuates prior to hitting the amplifier. Transient noise is also induced by several various devices in power supply switching and the signal chain could easily be compromised by outside influence. Electromagnetic inductance plays a role and that has to be accounted for. How to account for it in this test case is up in the air. I can definitely design the test case but what would be the relevance. In theory, I already gave it to you and why it would occur. You don't necessarily need a completely controlled environment to replicate what would transpire. To do this in a lab setting; you would need a completely "noise free" environment, not in respects to acoustics but to potential electromagnetics.


Correct- and the input/output voltage differences should be audible, its a what freq. and what attenuation do they become audible, which is the actual question; not if its possible. I would expect for a well designed amp that it would be around 600 Hz attenuated -9 db. The audible difference should be in the area of 3-5 dB on one of the channels.
 
#18,584 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18500_100#post_24788197


Check out my build thread in that section of the forums so we dont derail this one anymore.


I actually have several speaker brands oddly enough because of architectural reasons. I couldn't fit all the same brand due to the various woodwork aesthetics. I wanted a ton of woodwork in the room for the diffusive effect that lots of "bumpiness" provides.


Honestly though, MOST mainstream speaker brands are using very good drivers. While you are distracted by all the surround noise, you cant really tell what speaker sounds like what? It all feels like a seamless field of sound.


Even simple polk audio in-walls blended fantasically.


I will update my build thread soon to put in all the updates. I'll try to do an addendum with a full build pictorial to simplifiy my old thread.

Link please
 
#18,585 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18500_100#post_24791499


Check these lovely custom 802 diamonds being built for a customer. Finish is Savanna Beige Pearl.





I didn't know one could have these done in custom colors
I wished I had known I might have done all mine in the NAUTILUS MIDNIGHT BLU



Patrick what is the cost for custom color?
 
#18,586 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24797810


Hi Jon,


The cabinet is made of birch, and the veneer is made of Cherry, or in the case of the Rosenut finish- Walnut. Gloss black cabinets are lacquered.


Best,


Patrick

Hi Patrick,


The 802D's we listened to had minimal to no discernible grain. I'm pretty sure they weren't walnut veneer, they looked like stained beech. Seems like if the veneer was walnut, B&W would call the walnut rather than some non-existent wood? My 801S3's are definitely bookmatched walnut. Rod, I doubt very much there's an industry stand for Rosenut stain. Rosenut isn't a species, just marketing hype for a stain that is reddish like a cherry stain. Rosewood, OTOH, is a genus.


On a related note, It would be nice if B&W offered a gloss finish in Rosenut or cherry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan30306  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24798238


Factors don't remain constant in this case. Preamp voltage fluctuates prior to hitting the amplifier. Transient noise is also induced by several various devices in power supply switching and the signal chain could easily be compromised by outside influence. Electromagnetic inductance plays a role and that has to be accounted for. How to account for it in this test case is up in the air. I can definitely design the test case but what would be the relevance. In theory, I already gave it to you and why it would occur. You don't necessarily need a completely controlled environment to replicate what would transpire. To do this in a lab setting; you would need a completely "noise free" environment, not in respects to acoustics but to potential electromagnetics.


Correct- and the input/output voltage differences should be audible, its a what freq. and what attenuation do they become audible, which is the actual question; not if its possible. I would expect for a well designed amp that it would be around 600 Hz attenuated -9 db. The audible difference should be in the area of 3-5 dB on one of the channels.

It's clear to me that you do not understand DBT or the scientific method. In order to show whether or not one can hear differences between channels in a two channel amp, both channels must receive the same input and must output to the same speaker. Any other design introduces confounding variables. I assume that different speakers, being transducers, would have more variability than channels from the same amp. Even different channels from a preamp could vary as much or more than the amp. There is no conceivable way you or anybody else can hear a difference in the two channels of this amp. Your assertion that you can hear a difference of .00103% THD at 300WPC is simply preposterous. I doubt you could hear a difference in a DBT between the Bryston and my Sony stereo receiver if not driven into clipping. I suggest you read up on DBT in general and for amps in particular. I don't want to derail this thread more, so I'm done with this discussion here. Feel free to PM if you desire.


I'd much rather talk about how awesome the 800D2's sounded last night playing Charlotte Church's "Enchantment" CD. Really amazing.
 
#18,588 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by wse  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24798516


I didn't know one could have these done in custom colors
I wished I had known I might have done all mine in the NAUTILUS MIDNIGHT BLU



Patrick what is the cost for custom color?

I am assuming this is a aftermarket action, would love to see them finished.


Daniel.
 
#18,589 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24798830


Hi Patrick,


The 802D's we listened to had minimal to no discernible grain. I'm pretty sure they weren't walnut veneer, they looked like stained beech. Seems like if the veneer was walnut, B&W would call the walnut rather than some non-existent wood? My 801S3's are definitely bookmatched walnut. Rod, I doubt very much there's an industry stand for Rosenut stain. Rosenut isn't a species, just marketing hype for a stain that is reddish like a cherry stain. Rosewood, OTOH, is a genus.


On a related note, It would be nice if B&W offered a gloss finish in Rosenut or cherry.

It's clear to me that you do not understand DBT or the scientific method. In order to show whether or not one can hear differences between channels in a two channel amp, both channels must receive the same input and must output to the same speaker. Any other design introduces confounding variables. I assume that different speakers, being transducers, would have more variability than channels from the same amp. Even different channels from a preamp could vary as much or more than the amp. There is no conceivable way you or anybody else can hear a difference in the two channels of this amp. Your assertion that you can hear a difference of .00103% THD at 300WPC is simply preposterous. I doubt you could hear a difference in a DBT between the Bryston and my Sony stereo receiver if not driven into clipping. I suggest you read up on DBT in general and for amps in particular. I don't want to derail this thread more, so I'm done with this discussion here. Feel free to PM if you desire.


I'd much rather talk about how awesome the 800D2's sounded last night playing Charlotte Church's "Enchantment" CD. Really amazing.

We can do the scientific method, and I fully understand what you are saying. My assumption was you were going to do this in your living room with the gear you already have (which will not have matched levels)..... not in an anechoic chamber
Why I'm arguing this on the internet I dunno...
Nobody said your Bryston was a bad amp so I'm trying to figure out why you're so concerned with a DBT in the first place but whatever...
 
#18,590 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24797810


Hi Jon,


The cabinet is made of birch, and the veneer is made of Cherry, or in the case of the Rosenut finish- Walnut. Gloss black cabinets are lacquered.


Best,


Patrick

Hi Patrick,


I checked the website again. It mentions that the final layer of the cabinet is "real wood veneer". I wonder why they call the cherry finish "Cherry" but the walnut ones "Rosenut"? Maybe because the "Rose" denotes the reddish stain and "Nut" denotes walnut? Confusing. Must have been Marketing's decision.
 
#18,591 ·
Most people can't even reliably tell the difference between high bitrate mp3s and the original redbook CD data in double blind studies. Sure, some can, but once you get beyond CD quality it's a crap shoot (i.e. flip a coin).


Amps and receivers also cannot be differentiated reliably by double blind tests. Speakers, yes. Room treatments, yes. Room correction, yes. But those are not minor alterations. 0.00103% is not significant, and not a serious proposition. Even if you can tell a difference more than 50% of the time in an anechoic chamber (if you're testing amps vs each other, keeping the speakers the same), that's besides the point because nobody lives in an anechoic chamber. Except maybe Zombie Hologram Michael Jackson haha j/k
 
#18,592 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24799954


Most people can't even reliably tell the difference between high bitrate mp3s and the original redbook CD data in double blind studies. Sure, some can, but once you get beyond CD quality it's a crap shoot (i.e. flip a coin).


Amps and receivers also cannot be differentiated reliably by double blind tests. Speakers, yes. Room treatments, yes. Room correction, yes. But those are not minor alterations. 0.00103% is not significant, and not a serious proposition. Even if you can tell a difference more than 50% of the time in an anechoic chamber (if you're testing amps vs each other, keeping the speakers the same), that's besides the point because nobody lives in an anechoic chamber. Except maybe Zombie Hologram Michael Jackson haha j/k

Yep. My concern is that a few posts on this thread could mislead Jonas when he came here for advice about his next amp purchase. He could end up wasting a lot of money that could be put to better use than an expensive amp which doesn't improve SQ. Sorry for the diversion, but hopefully Jonas benefited.
 
#18,593 ·
Hi guys,

I have recently bought a used B&W HTM2 center speaker. This replaced Monitor Audio BRLCR and powered by Denon X4000 AVR.

The 2 difference I clearly noticed is the clarity of HTM2; however, the mid bass is significantly poorer compared to BRLCR. This is very obvious where male voices no longer exhibit bassy sound and sounds thin (I love bassy dialogue). I am wondering if this is due to HTM2 is harder to drive thus sound lacking with X4000 (125W/channel). Do I need a seperate amp? I am not bi-wiring.

If it matters, my fronts are B&W CDM 7NT (bi-wiring through X4000), Acoustic Energy satellites as surrounds & SVS PC13-Ultra sub crossed at 80hz.

Things i have tried including changing the x-over of center channel to 100hz, bumping SVS sub PEQ @63 and 80hz and re-running audessey xt32 with no success.

Pls advise if any idea to improve HTM2 bass response. thanks and happy Friday
 
#18,594 ·
Custom colors are actually pretty rare. There is at least a 30% surcharge and the wait is at least 16 weeks. Depending on production circumstances, we also do not accept special finish orders during all times of the year. All of this is because we do not have a special facility for custom finishes, which is what would be necessary to do this kind of work in a reasonable time frame and cost. Every special finish order delays production of standard finishes.


In other words, unless you are prepared for a frustratingly long wait time, just go with our standard finishes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wse  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24798516


I didn't know one could have these done in custom colors
I wished I had known I might have done all mine in the NAUTILUS MIDNIGHT BLU



Patrick what is the cost for custom color?
 
#18,595 ·
Hi Jon,


Rosenut is a pretty standard name for a simulated Rosewood finish using stained Walnut. Having worked with Rosewood as a veneer and knowing how little grade A material is available, it's a veneer we could never use on our scale. The delays in production the lack of supply would cause would be untenable.


Best,


Patrick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24799941


Hi Patrick,


I checked the website again. It mentions that the final layer of the cabinet is "real wood veneer". I wonder why they call the cherry finish "Cherry" but the walnut ones "Rosenut"? Maybe because the "Rose" denotes the reddish stain and "Nut" denotes walnut? Confusing. Must have been Marketing's decision.
 
#18,596 ·
Or he could listen to a couple of amplifiers and decide the merits of each for himself. Over many years of conducting demonstrations, I've found customers to be very savvy in deciding what was important to them, and whether or not a particular product passed muster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24800017


Yep. My concern is that a few posts on this thread could mislead Jonas when he came here for advice about his next amp purchase. He could end up wasting a lot of money that could be put to better use than an expensive amp which doesn't improve SQ. Sorry for the diversion, but hopefully Jonas benefited.
 
#18,597 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24802686


Hi Jon,


Rosenut is a pretty standard name for a simulated Rosewood finish using stained Walnut. Having worked with Rosewood as a veneer and knowing how little grade A material is available, it's a veneer we could never use on our scale. The delays in production the lack of supply would cause would be untenable.


Best,


Patrick

Yep, "Rosenut" is a much more appealing name than "Red Stained Walnut". I'm an amateur woodworker and have not seen it called that in my magazines like "Fine Woodworking", etc. It's not commonly used by enthusiastic hobbyists. And yes, Dalbergia is far less common than walnut. Some species are listed.


Why doesn't B&W do a gloss finish on their veneers? It's much classier in my view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24802753


Or he could listen to a couple of amplifiers and decide the merits of each for himself. Over many years of conducting demonstrations, I've found customers to be very savvy in deciding what was important to them, and whether or not a particular product passed muster.

I have no problem with that, so long as the listening is double blind. It cannot even be single blind, as the person doing the switching can give subtle clues. Then if he consistently hears a difference, he can choose which coloration he prefers. If not, his taste and budget will be his guide. My point is that SS amps these days exhibit very little coloration, so the issue seems pretty black and white.
 
#18,598 ·
Rosenut is a term that seems to be used exclusively in the loudspeaker world. Would be interesting to know the genesis of the term. Why don't we have a glass finish for veneered finishes? Great question, and I don't have an answer. Personally, I would prefer hand rubbed, or satin finishes over high gloss.


Amplifiers are certainly less overtly colored than they were twenty years ago. That said, I still find that they differ (sometimes wildly) in the relative level of their noise floors, and their ability to handle complex changes in impedance/phase. One thing is for certain, and that it is much easier for consumers to find competent designs of more consistent quality than in the past.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24803089


Yep, "Rosenut" is a much more appealing name than "Red Stained Walnut". I'm an amateur woodworker and have not seen it called that in my magazines like "Fine Woodworking", etc. It's not commonly used by enthusiastic hobbyists. And yes, Dalbergia is far less common than walnut. Some species are listed.


Why doesn't B&W do a gloss finish on their veneers? It's much classier in my view.

I have no problem with that, so long as the listening is double blind. It cannot even be single blind, as the person doing the switching can give subtle clues. Then if he consistently hears a difference, he can choose which coloration he prefers. If not, his taste and budget will be his guide. My point is that SS amps these days exhibit very little coloration, so the issue seems pretty black and white.
 
#18,600 ·
I used an RB-1582MKII a few weeks back to play music on 800 Diamond for a large group, and the system sounded great, especially considering the modest price of the amp. That said, it's pretty easy to run out of headroom playing action movies with 200 watts on 800Ds, and the 100 watts of the RSX-1562 makes it easier to run out of steam. I would recommend trying before buying, but I'm pretty sure you'll need a bigger amp like an RMB-1585.


Regards,


Patrick

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan30306  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18570#post_24803855


Patrick- is the Rotel RSX 1562 sufficient to drive a set of 800D's? Never heard/seen them paired together....
 
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