Triad Owner's Thread - Page 325 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9721 of 9759 Old 08-13-2019, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Gordon View Post
The scrim cloth is designed to somewhat offset the black color of the face of the speaker. Both the speaker enclosure and the drivers are black. If you paint the grill, the black shows through, making the grill appear darker than you would want after the speaker is mounted. By putting the scrim cloth against the grill it helps to reduce the dark grill effect. It's not a perfect solution, but it does help.
Yep. I first took the scrim out on two and after mounting, thought they painted them the wrong color. The black background really kills it. You are correct, the white, while not a perfect solution, does help.

BTW, what are your thoughts on leaving the grill on behind the AT screen and is there a preferred space between speaker & screen? Thanks.
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post #9722 of 9759 Old 08-13-2019, 03:04 PM
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I would certainly not use the grill behind an AT screen. Why have an extra layer of "stuff" in between the speakers and your ears?
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post #9723 of 9759 Old 08-13-2019, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I would certainly not use the grill behind an AT screen. Why have an extra layer of "stuff" in between the speakers and your ears?
Agreed. I was told by Triad not to use the grills behind my AT screen.
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post #9724 of 9759 Old 08-13-2019, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Yes, I actually cross mine over at 100Hz too, since I want to be able to play loud without stressing them (this was recommended to me by Triad directly). My subs are flat to 100Hz+ and I actually end up getting a flatter response around the crossover with a 100Hz crossover vs 80Hz. Realistically 5.25" woofers in a sealed box cannot thunder loud at 60-80Hz without compressing/distorting, makes sense to roll them off a bit more. I even do it for my Silver LCR which have dual 6.5" woofers.
I just ordered two JTR Captivator 118HT subs (18", 1200 watts) to go with my 11 Triad Silvers. The sub is flat up to 130-140Hz. Should I go higher than 100Hz crossover, say 110 or 120, or is 100 a sweet spot of sorts?
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post #9725 of 9759 Old 08-14-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by BIC2 View Post
I just ordered two JTR Captivator 118HT subs (18", 1200 watts) to go with my 11 Triad Silvers. The sub is flat up to 130-140Hz. Should I go higher than 100Hz crossover, say 110 or 120, or is 100 a sweet spot of sorts?
It depends on a variety of factors, as with all things audio it's a balance of compromises...

- The higher the crossover, the more headroom the speakers have (good)
- The higher the crossover, the more likely bass is to be localizable (bad)

I'm definitely not pushing 100Hz as the "sweet spot" in any universal sense, but it seems to be a nice compromise in the sense of squeaking out a bit more headroom without having localization issues. The localization problem also depends on the positioning / blend of the subs. With a single sub localization is far more problematic, vs. having multiple subs distributed around the room. But the higher the crossover the more important getting the "blend" right is since your ears will get more sensitive to those frequencies. I've also ran at 110Hz and it still sounds great, but I have dual subs up front that blend nicely up to and above 100Hz.

In my case I have a UMIK-1 mic and REW, so I can measure and see what happens around the crossover. Besides the headroom factor, I also get a smoother blend at 100-120Hz than at 80Hz. For whatever reason I get a nasty dip around 70-80Hz when the crossover is below 100Hz; raising the crossover to 100-120Hz flattens things out and I get significantly improved "chest slam" from mid bass effects (the ending scene in John Wick is a great test for this, the car crashes and gunshots really feel concussive with a proper bass setup). I don't know how much of the "slam" improvement is from filling the dip in the response vs. handing off some of the content from the speakers to the subs.

All that being said, with subs as capable as the JTRs -- both in terms of raw output and ability to play above 100Hz -- I see no reason not to give them as much bass as possible. The JTR subs will have *vastly* more headroom in the 80-120Hz range than the 6.5" woofers (in a sealed enclosure) of the Triad Silvers. If you don't have REW to measure, I would experiment with a few good test scenes that have significant mid-bass slam and just use your ears, trying 100, 110, 120. Basically, I would push the crossover as high as you can without creating negative consequences (e.g. localization issues, boominess with deep male voices, etc), the system will have more overall headroom and the JTR beasts will do what you paid for.
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post #9726 of 9759 Old 08-14-2019, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Gordon View Post
The scrim cloth is designed to somewhat offset the black color of the face of the speaker. Both the speaker enclosure and the drivers are black. If you paint the grill, the black shows through, making the grill appear darker than you would want after the speaker is mounted. By putting the scrim cloth against the grill it helps to reduce the dark grill effect. It's not a perfect solution, but it does help.
Is the scrim cloth acoustically transparent?

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post #9727 of 9759 Old 08-14-2019, 11:36 AM
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Yes it is.

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post #9728 of 9759 Old 08-14-2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
In my case I have a UMIK-1 mic and REW, so I can measure and see what happens around the crossover.
Thanks for the detailed explanation, it was extremely helpful. Don't know anything about audio analysis, but looks like the mike is about $75 direct from MiniDSP (but $91 from Amazon) and the software is free, but maybe I'll give it a whirl. Is it also useful for analyzing room acoustical treatments? Thanks.
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post #9729 of 9759 Old 08-14-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BIC2 View Post
Thanks for the detailed explanation, it was extremely helpful. Don't know anything about audio analysis, but looks like the mike is about $75 direct from MiniDSP (but $91 from Amazon) and the software is free, but maybe I'll give it a whirl. Is it also useful for analyzing room acoustical treatments? Thanks.
You'll want to spring for a calibrated mic from Cross-Spectrum Labs. http://cross-spectrum.com/measuremen...ated_umik.html

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post #9730 of 9759 Old 08-14-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
You'll want to spring for a calibrated mic from Cross-Spectrum Labs. http://cross-spectrum.com/measuremen...ated_umik.html
That one is $105. Isn't that the exact same one as this, direct from the manufacturer for $75?

https://www.minidsp.com/products/aco...urement/umik-1
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post #9731 of 9759 Old 08-14-2019, 06:34 PM
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Silly question for everyone. The silver in ceiling speakers have foam in them when unpacked. Does that foam stay in or do you remove it when installing?
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post #9732 of 9759 Old 08-14-2019, 10:48 PM
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Silly question for everyone. The silver in ceiling speakers have foam in them when unpacked. Does that foam stay in or do you remove it when installing?


Stay of course DON’T remove them


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post #9733 of 9759 Old 08-15-2019, 02:24 PM
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My installer is recommending Triad speakers for the in-ceiling whole-house audio. They have spec'd the Inceiling Silver Sealed for all of the locations. I was thinking about upgrading the master bedroom and my office with higher end speakers, but it seems that going up the Triad line moves into very dated speakers with either the Inceiling Gold/8 Omni SE or Minimonitor.

I was curious if any of you have current experience with these models and can provide a perspective on the relative advantages of moving up to the Gold models.
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post #9734 of 9759 Old 08-16-2019, 04:59 AM
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I have InCeiling sealed silver in a few places in my house, and in other places I have some Niles speakers (sorry I can't remember the model). I definitely do like the Triads better than the Niles, but they are, in my opinion no where close to what my Triad theater speakers can do and sound like. In my theater I went with the KEF in ceiling speakers and had custom backer boxes made and those sound very very nice.

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post #9735 of 9759 Old 08-16-2019, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by BIC2 View Post
That one is $105. Isn't that the exact same one as this, direct from the manufacturer for $75?

https://www.minidsp.com/products/aco...urement/umik-1
I'm not sure if there are still import fees on the mic, but that adds to the cost a bit. But no, Cross Spectrum will measure each mic against a reference and then send you calibration files along with that mic that will make it your readings more accurate. There have been a couple posts that talked about the differences in individual mics before and after the calibration files were loaded. IIRC the differences were primarily on the lower end, but I'm too lazy to look them up.

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post #9736 of 9759 Old 08-16-2019, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilman View Post
My installer is recommending Triad speakers for the in-ceiling whole-house audio. They have spec'd the Inceiling Silver Sealed for all of the locations. I was thinking about upgrading the master bedroom and my office with higher end speakers, but it seems that going up the Triad line moves into very dated speakers with either the Inceiling Gold/8 Omni SE or Minimonitor.

I was curious if any of you have current experience with these models and can provide a perspective on the relative advantages of moving up to the Gold models.
In the world of speakers "dated" is a relative term. Driver technology isn't like an AVR which can substantially change/add features over a couple of years time. The drivers in the MiniMonitors and Gold Omni SE's are excellent with the Scan Speak drivers found in the Gold Mini's in the "audiophile" category. They will also play lower than the Gold Omni's.

As far as the rest of the house goes, unless you need a sealed enclosure for your distributed audio speakers, I would consider the Triad TS-IC83 Distributed Audio Speaker. It's got a bigger woofer and plays much lower than the Silver Series. If you email me I will send you the Data Sheet.

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post #9737 of 9759 Old 08-17-2019, 07:15 AM
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Three years after having my theater installed with triad speakers, I'm unable to get decent bass from the system. I have two Bronze 10" subs in the front (driven as a single speaker from a triad dip amp) and a Silver sub in a side wall driven by its own amp. The pre-pro is a Marantz 7702 in a 7.2.4 setup. Basically, the subs can't output anything below about 50Hz or 60Hz. If I change the subs crossover to output below 40 or 50 hz, they buzz and vibrate and the wall resonates and it sounds terrible.

I've spent some number of weekends playing with the system and running Audyssey and adjusting Triad DSP amp settings per Triad recommendations and Dawn's website to try and improve the performance. I've gotten rid of the buzzing, but at the sacrifice of bass output. I've reached my the limit in knowledge and time to work on it.

My original theater installer, I've realized in hindsight, didn't really understand Triad speakers. Maybe they didn't install them right? Maybe by not buying a system supporting measured-tuned response I caused myself the problems. In any case, my original installer's company is gone. Sold to some other company that is unresponsive to followup service to former customers of the original shop.

I've got two options, I think:
1) Find someone who's savvy about Triad speakers, that can work with me to improve their performance.
2) Buy some freestanding (not Triad!) sub(s) to put behind my seating and accept unused in-wall sub(s) as a sunk cost.

I'm in NoVA, so suggestions for Triad experts, whether friendly volunteers or paid professionals, is much appreciated either in the thread or via PM.

Last edited by ShoutingMan; 08-17-2019 at 07:19 AM.
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post #9738 of 9759 Old 08-17-2019, 07:28 AM
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A few questions:

1. What type of grills do you have?
2. When setting the sub(s) lower - does the vibration stop when you remove the grills?
3. After removing the grill, are any of the frame screws and plastic retainer screws loose? They must be very tight.
4. Are the subs located in the corners?

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post #9739 of 9759 Old 08-17-2019, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Dawn Gordon View Post
A few questions:

1. What type of grills do you have?
2. When setting the sub(s) lower - does the vibration stop when you remove the grills?
3. After removing the grill, are any of the frame screws and plastic retainer screws loose? They must be very tight.
4. Are the subs located in the corners?
Grills? I don't know. The speakers had no grills in the front and I think sheer acoustic cloth in the side and rear walls. The subs also are in-wall behind treatments, so I can't access them to check. And I didn't get pictures of the subs installed before the covering treatments went up.

The subs aren't in corners.

Maybe they weren't installed right? Early after installation I asked about this and the builder said they were done correctly. But I don't know.

Last edited by ShoutingMan; 08-17-2019 at 08:12 AM.
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post #9740 of 9759 Old 08-17-2019, 08:30 AM
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What levels are you having issues with them at ShoutingMan?
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post #9741 of 9759 Old 08-17-2019, 09:09 AM
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What levels are you having issues with them at ShoutingMan?
Not particularly loud. If I tune them to output bass maybe about 30Hz, I get buzzing and rattling and other issues even with the volume set moderately. I'm not going for reference level.
It's possible that the Marantz 7702 Mk II Audyssey system doesn't work well with having a sub controlled by a DSP amplifier. I don't know if I'm (partially) caught in a vicious cycle between two DSP's working at odds. Maybe with these revised settings I need to go and re-run Audyssey yet again? It's just I've run out of time to spend fussing with it and just want to enjoy watching stuff.

I've attached a screen shot of the settings I'm using.
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post #9742 of 9759 Old 08-17-2019, 09:47 AM
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I tested 2 in ceiling bronze subs in my living room. If turned up past -22 or so on my denon receiver they would do just like you are describing on scenes with low bass. I had them just siting on the floor, no grills or frames. I put pads underneath them thinking they were vibrating on the floor and checked all the screws but that didn't help. I came to the conclusion they just aren't made to be pushed that hard. They sounded fantastic with music and at lower volume levels but didn't go loud enough for movies without running into this problem.(could be the driver bottoming or some kind of limiter, im not sure)
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post #9743 of 9759 Old 08-17-2019, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ShoutingMan View Post
Grills? I don't know. The speakers had no grills in the front and I think sheer acoustic cloth in the side and rear walls. The subs also are in-wall behind treatments, so I can't access them to check. And I didn't get pictures of the subs installed before the covering treatments went up.

The subs aren't in corners.

Maybe they weren't installed right? Early after installation I asked about this and the builder said they were done correctly. But I don't know.
That's your problem right there. Speakers and subwoofers should NEVER have acoustic treatments paced IN FRONT of them.


Can you post pics please?

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post #9744 of 9759 Old 08-17-2019, 11:34 AM
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I think he meant acoustically transparent cloth in front of speakers/subs--but we'll see what he says.
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post #9745 of 9759 Old 08-17-2019, 12:19 PM
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I think he meant acoustically transparent cloth in front of speakers/subs--but we'll see what he says.
Let's hope that's what he meant, but AT cloth is not "treatment."

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post #9746 of 9759 Old 08-17-2019, 12:32 PM
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How much power do Silver LCRs really need?

After installing 11 new Silver Triads the other day awaiting the subs, set them down to 100Hz, they didn't sound so good by themselves. The two JTR Captivator 118HT subs arrived yesterday. 18" driver, 1200 watt amp & 130 pounds--each. Set the crossover at 120Hz. The Triads are sounding a whole lot better now.

A few things I don't understand. I have a Yamaha CX-A5200 pre/pro on order for a 7.2.4 system. For the moment, I'm using my old Onkyo TX-NR708, with a claimed 7 x 170 wpc. I was planning on buying a Monoprice Monolith 7 x 200 wpc amp and using an old Denon AVR-3802 with 7 x 110 wpc for the four Atmos. Denon does claim all 7 channels are 110 wpc each.

Seems to me, in preliminary testing, the Onkyo provides plenty of power. The dedicated HT is 21 wide, 23 deep & 10 high (4800 cu ft). I think the possibly deceiving Onkyo spec of 170 is actually with one channel driven. I know the Monoprice is an actual 7 x 200 and the Denon claims to be a true 7 x 110.

Nonetheless, at 0db on the volume control, the Onkyo was putting out over 100db on my analog Radio Shack sound meter (an Android app was showing more like 75db, but my ears were ringing for hours after only a few minutes listening so I'm guessing the Radio Shack is more accurate). At -6db on the volume control, I was closer to a reference 85db on the Radio Shack.

Using the Onkyo Audyssey setup, it marked all speakers as 6 ohms. The various Silver Triads are 4, 6 & 8 ohms. Is that OK? Do I need more power for those 4 ohm Silver LCRs in the front? Should I still get a new amp? Be nice if I could reuse both AVRs. Instead of assigning 7 channels to the Onkyo & 4 to the Denon, would it be better to do 5 (front & side) & 6 (rear & Atmos) channels respectively? Thanks.
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post #9747 of 9759 Old 08-17-2019, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BIC2 View Post
After installing 11 new Silver Triads the other day awaiting the subs, set them down to 100Hz, they didn't sound so good by themselves. The two JTR Captivator 118HT subs arrived yesterday. 18" driver, 1200 watt amp & 130 pounds--each. Set the crossover at 120Hz. The Triads are sounding a whole lot better now.

A few things I don't understand. I have a Yamaha CX-A5200 pre/pro on order for a 7.2.4 system. For the moment, I'm using my old Onkyo TX-NR708, with a claimed 7 x 170 wpc. I was planning on buying a Monoprice Monolith 7 x 200 wpc amp and using an old Denon AVR-3802 with 7 x 110 wpc for the four Atmos. Denon does claim all 7 channels are 110 wpc each.

Seems to me, in preliminary testing, the Onkyo provides plenty of power. The dedicated HT is 21 wide, 23 deep & 10 high (4800 cu ft). I think the possibly deceiving Onkyo spec of 170 is actually with one channel driven. I know the Monoprice is an actual 7 x 200 and the Denon claims to be a true 7 x 110.

Nonetheless, at 0db on the volume control, the Onkyo was putting out over 100db on my analog Radio Shack sound meter (an Android app was showing more like 75db, but my ears were ringing for hours after only a few minutes listening so I'm guessing the Radio Shack is more accurate). At -6db on the volume control, I was closer to a reference 85db on the Radio Shack.

Using the Onkyo Audyssey setup, it marked all speakers as 6 ohms. The various Silver Triads are 4, 6 & 8 ohms. Is that OK? Do I need more power for those 4 ohm Silver LCRs in the front? Should I still get a new amp? Be nice if I could reuse both AVRs. Instead of assigning 7 channels to the Onkyo & 4 to the Denon, would it be better to do 5 (front & side) & 6 (rear & Atmos) channels respectively? Thanks.
Which Triad Silvers do you have, Silver Sats, Silver LCR's, or Silver Monitors? In-walls, On-walls or In-rooms?

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post #9748 of 9759 Old 08-17-2019, 01:07 PM
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Let's hope that's what he meant, but AT cloth is not "treatment."
My assumption, since he mentioned "sheer acoustic cloth" and a pro installer, is that he has a fabric track system with speakers + treatments hidden behind the fabric. That would be the way a good pro HT installer would do things. But let's see how this story unfolds!
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post #9749 of 9759 Old 08-17-2019, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Which Triad Silvers do you have?
Fronts: (3) InWall Silver/6 LCR

Sides: (2) InWall Silver/4 Side Surround Bi-Pole

Rears: (2) InWall Silver/4 Side Surround Bi-Pole

Atmos: (4) InCeiling Silver/6 Sat
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post #9750 of 9759 Old 08-17-2019, 01:35 PM
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A few things to discuss...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIC2 View Post
Using the Onkyo Audyssey setup, it marked all speakers as 6 ohms. The various Silver Triads are 4, 6 & 8 ohms. Is that OK? Do I need more power for those 4 ohm Silver LCRs in the front?
First, Audyssey does NOT set the impedance setting. That has nothing to do with Audyssey. The 6ohm setting is likely the default parameter.

Many receivers have a 4ohm setting but do NOT use it. All it does is chop the balls off the amp section by limiting the voltage so the AVR doesn't overheat. It does NOT improve performance, it's just a CYA for the manufacturer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIC2 View Post
Nonetheless, at 0db on the volume control, the Onkyo was putting out over 100db on my analog Radio Shack sound meter (an Android app was showing more like 75db, but my ears were ringing for hours after only a few minutes listening so I'm guessing the Radio Shack is more accurate). At -6db on the volume control, I was closer to a reference 85db on the Radio Shack.
First on this -- phone apps are basically worthless for this kind of measurement. The built-in mic isn't calibrated and likely has terrible sensitivity to low frequencies and/or extreme SPL. Use the Radio Shack meter.

Second, be careful measuring with real content. If you measure C-weighted (which includes bass) then avg levels at reference will be much louder than 85dB. To check for "reference levels" it's better to pick a dialogue scene without a bunch of loud explosions and use A-weighted so you can assess avg dialogue levels, which should be around 85dB.

That said, it's better to measure with a known test signal. Start the internal test tones, set your meter to C-weighed slow, and turn the volume knob until the FL channel is at 75dB. That's reference level on your volume dial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIC2 View Post
Seems to me, in preliminary testing, the Onkyo provides plenty of power. The dedicated HT is 21 wide, 23 deep & 10 high (4800 cu ft). I think the possibly deceiving Onkyo spec of 170 is actually with one channel driven. I know the Monoprice is an actual 7 x 200 and the Denon claims to be a true 7 x 110.
The Denon is not a "true 7x 110". That spec is for 2ch driven, but it's honest one... however it's probably more like 70-80wpc with all 7 channels driven.

And the 170wpc Onkyo spec is a BS one, probably a 6ohm 1 channel rating, not apples to apples with the Denon. The comparable spec is identical, 110wpc.

The Onkyo and the Denon have solid amp sections for an AVR. The Onkyo is THX Select2 certified which means it should be able to power 4ohm speakers to reference levels in a small room (~2,000 cubic ft). The Triad Silver LCR however are above average sensitivity, the typical THX Select speaker back in the day would probably be more like 85-88dB so a Silver LCR which is more like 91-92dB sensitivity will play to the same levels with half the power (or less). As long as the amp section is stable with 4ohm loads (which both AVRs should be) it's not an issue.

A beefier amp will likely give you a bit more headroom and sound cleaner at crazy loud levels, but with most people listening more like 10-15dB below reference you don't need THAT much power. A 10dB drop is 1/10th the power. So if it takes 150watts to hit a clean 105dB peak at reference level, it only takes 15 watts at -10dB.

A 91dB speaker like the Silver LCR can hit 111dB at 1m distance with 100 watts of power. You'll lose some SPL to distance (about 3dB per doubling of distance) so at 4m that's down to 105dB. So an amp that can put out a clean 100 watt peak can play a 91dB speaker to full reference levels at 4m distance. If you're listening at -10, it only takes 10 watts to hit those peaks.

And that's just the PEAKS. Avg levels are 20dB down from peaks (85dB) so it's 1/100th the power required vs peaks. So even at full reference levels the amps are coasting along with avg content.

Where you need power is if you you want clean, undistorted peaks at high SPL, and for the LFE content which is 10dB hotter (and in home theater the subs are also playing redirected bass so their job is even tougher). But if all your speakers are crossed over at 100-120Hz to a monster sub setup (which you have with dual JTR) then 100wpc is likely plenty for any real world listening situation, even in a moderately larger room like yours.

And one final point, back to the "all channels driven" part -- all of the above is referring to the LCR speakers. The surrounds / overheads get far less content, will *rarely* have full scale peaks, and are much closer to you in most rooms, so they likely need at most 1/2 the power of the LCR speakers. That's why the Monolith 11ch amp is 200wpc x 3 and the other 8 channels are 100wpc.

Is more power/headroom nice to have, just cuz? Sure. But really, most people don't actually need it.
Dawn Gordon, BllDo, BIC2 and 1 others like this.

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