Triad Owner's Thread - Page 346 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10351 of 10519 Old 04-27-2020, 07:13 AM
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Clients are very surprised when I tell them their room is too big for the speakers they picked out. They tell me that they only listen to movies in the movie area. But what most folks don't understand is that you have to take the whole space into account. Sound waves aren't smart enough to know that the theater portion of the room is separate from the kitchen area, for example.

With that in mind: Triad specifies their LCRs for room size, not good, better, best. The larger the room, the larger the speaker. So, in essence, Silver will have deeper bass and play louder than Bronze, and Gold will have deeper bass and play louder than Silver.

If you want the Triad Room Size Guide, please email me.
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post #10352 of 10519 Old 04-27-2020, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Gordon View Post
Clients are very surprised when I tell them their room is too big for the speakers they picked out. They tell me that they only listen to movies in the movie area. But what most folks don't understand is that you have to take the whole space into account. Sound waves aren't smart enough to know that the theater portion of the room is separate from the kitchen area, for example.

With that in mind: Triad specifies their LCRs for room size, not good, better, best. The larger the room, the larger the speaker. So, in essence, Silver will have deeper bass and play louder than Bronze, and Gold will have deeper bass and play louder than Silver.

If you want the Triad Room Size Guide, please email me.
I agree with your assessment above for subwoofers. However, for speakers, the criteria I've generally used is listening distance. The further away the listener sits, the more capable the speakers need to be. Obviously, this is partially dictated by room size. However, even in a very large room, if the listeners are relatively close to the speakers, they don't need to be as capable. THX does something similar, where THX Ultra is for listening distances of 12' or more, and THX Select is for less than 12'. Subwoofers, OTOH, need to pressurize the entire contiguous space, and therefore need to be scaled to the volume/size of that space.

At least that's how I've always done it.

Craig
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post #10353 of 10519 Old 04-27-2020, 12:31 PM
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Triad has pretty stringent instructions (see the Triad room size chart) for specifying various speaker lines in a home theater. Triad takes everything (including the number of surrounds) into consideration when designing a room.
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post #10354 of 10519 Old 04-27-2020, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
I agree with your assessment above for subwoofers. However, for speakers, the criteria I've generally used is listening distance. The further away the listener sits, the more capable the speakers need to be. Obviously, this is partially dictated by room size. However, even in a very large room, if the listeners are relatively close to the speakers, they don't need to be as capable. THX does something similar, where THX Ultra is for listening distances of 12' or more, and THX Select is for less than 12'. Subwoofers, OTOH, need to pressurize the entire contiguous space, and therefore need to be scaled to the volume/size of that space.

At least that's how I've always done it.

Craig

Agreed. (which is how I partially I justified Bronze for my second set of side surrounds). Unless, of course, we are discussing full range speakers in which case (because of the bass) room size is important as well. But then, again, Triad (to my knowledge) doesn't build full range speakers.
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post #10355 of 10519 Old 04-27-2020, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Dawn Gordon View Post
Triad has pretty stringent instructions (see the Triad room size chart) for specifying various speaker lines in a home theater. Triad takes everything (including the number of surrounds) into consideration when designing a room.
Are you referring to this Triad Room Size Chart:
http://www.triadspeakersforum.com/sh...ker-Size-Guide

Because if you are, it is exactly what I said. The speakers are based on listening distance and the subs are based on cubic volume of the space. At least, that's how I read it.

Craig
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post #10356 of 10519 Old 04-27-2020, 03:14 PM
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Yes and no. You'll notice that Triad also factors the surrounds into the mix. Triad dealer training was very specific about cubic feet and which speakers to use.

Craig, technically, you are correct. But remember each room is going to be different. For example, let's say you have a room that's 22' long x 16' wide x 14 feet high. The front seats are at 14 feet from the LCRs, the back of the room houses a pool table. Now, if you base the room on the front speaker distance you should go with Bronze LCRs, Bronze Surrounds and a bunch of subs. But quite honestly, Bronze speakers don't belong in a room that size. There's a reason Triad is insistent on cubic feet.
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post #10357 of 10519 Old 04-27-2020, 07:02 PM
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When using the rackamp 700 with two bronze subs are the two RCA outputs from the amp how they are powered or is there another method? There appears to be only 1 XLR and 2 RCA outputs.
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post #10358 of 10519 Old 04-27-2020, 07:44 PM
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When using the rackamp 700 with two bronze subs are the two RCA outputs from the amp how they are powered or is there another method? There appears to be only 1 XLR and 2 RCA outputs.
Triad subs are passive. You run 12 gauge speaker cable from the rear binding posts on the RackAmp to the binding posts on the back of the subs.

Though, I’m not sure how you would run power to two subs from one output binding post terminal pair from one RackAmp.

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post #10359 of 10519 Old 04-28-2020, 04:32 AM
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You can run two Bronze subs from a single binding post pair. The subs need to be 8 ohm models to do this.

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post #10360 of 10519 Old 04-28-2020, 04:51 AM
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Triad subs are passive. You run 12 gauge speaker cable from the rear binding posts on the RackAmp to the binding posts on the back of the subs.

Though, I’m not sure how you would run power to two subs from one output binding post terminal pair from one RackAmp.
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You can run two Bronze subs from a single binding post pair. The subs need to be 8 ohm models to do this.
Thank you, will 14 gauge work or does it need to be 12?
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post #10361 of 10519 Old 04-28-2020, 05:34 AM
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14 Gauge is fine.
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post #10362 of 10519 Old 04-28-2020, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Gordon View Post
Yes and no. You'll notice that Triad also factors the surrounds into the mix. Triad dealer training was very specific about cubic feet and which speakers to use.

Craig, technically, you are correct. But remember each room is going to be different. For example, let's say you have a room that's 22' long x 16' wide x 14 feet high. The front seats are at 14 feet from the LCRs, the back of the room houses a pool table. Now, if you base the room on the front speaker distance you should go with Bronze LCRs, Bronze Surrounds and a bunch of subs. But quite honestly, Bronze speakers don't belong in a room that size. There's a reason Triad is insistent on cubic feet.
Hi Dawn,

Obviously, I've never taken the Triad dealer training, since I'm not a dealer, just an A/V enthusiast. However, if Triad uses room volume to specify speaker size, that doesn't make sense to me. While admittedly, the larger the volume of the room, the greater the opportunity to lengthen the listening distance. But this is only an indirect measure of the speaker's SPL requirements, and the seating distance from speaker to listener is a much more direct measure. In the example you gave above, the issue is more about the 14' listening distance than about the total cubic volume of the room. Move the seating forward to 10 ft. and the Bronze speakers would be fine even in that large a space. If you actually require a 14ft. listening distance, step up to the Silvers. The volume of the space behind the LP, which is where the additional cubic footage would be, doesn't add or subtract substantially to the room reinforcement.

The inverse square law determines the volume loss vs. distance, where SPL drops off by 6 dB per doubling of distance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law In other words, if you move from 1' to 2' you lose 6 dB, 2' to 4', you lose another 6 dB, from 4' to 8' another 6 dB, etc.


https://www.24x7mag.com/professional...-applications/

Another good explanation here: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...ic/invsqs.html
(That page also has a calculator that will calculate the volume loss per distance.)

In other words, by the Inverse Square Law, the closer you sit to the speakers, the louder the SPL will be. The reverse is also true: the further you sit from the speakers, the more speaker output capability you need to reach any given maximum SPL.

However, the Inverse Square Law is based on no boundaries providing reinforcement of the sound. In a room, obviously this is not the case, and the walls, floor and ceiling provide "room reinforcement." Different room environments will offer differing levels of "room reinforcement." The amount of absorption vs. reflection of the boundaries will influence the room reinforcement. A highly reflective room will be louder than a room with lots of soft furnishings, rugs and drapes, not to mention acoustic treatments. The distances of the speakers to the walls will also impact the SPL's of the reflections, as will the distance from the walls to the listening position. (By the same Inverse Square Law, the SPL at the wall surface will be less the further the speaker is from the wall, and the SPL of the reflected sound will decrease even more the further the listener sits from the wall.) Even the wall construction will impact the absorption by the walls. Concrete block or poured walls will be more reflective than drywall and stud walls. All these things will factor into the speaker size selection... and none of them show up in the Speaker Size Selection guidelines. So, the closer you sit to the speakers and the walls, and the more reflective the walls, the more direct and indirect SPL you hear.

The volume behind the listening position only provides very slight reinforcement because the reflections from behind the listener come from even lower SPL reflections which then drop even more as they travel back to the listener. By the time they arrive at the listener, they are low enough in SPL that they don't add appreciably to the SPL at the listening position. Therefore, the listening distance to the speaker is the primary determinant, followed by the proximity to the room boundaries. The cubic volume of the room is only a very "indirect" measure of the the maximum SPL requirements for a speaker.



In this example, compare the length of the green direct lines to the total length of each of the yellow ray traces. By the inverse square law, those MUCH longer yellow lines will be at greatly reduced in SPL compared to the direct sound represented by the green lines. You can also easily see how much shorter the distance is for the "early" reflections than for the "late" reflections that go behind the listener and travel a much greater distance. The early reflections will arrive at the listening position with much higher SPL than the later reflections. All of the extra distance the late reflections need to travel will cause those room reinforcements to be diminished in SPL by the time they arrive at the listening position. Increasing the volume behind the listener will decrease the impact of those later reflections, but they are not a significant determinant of the SPL at the LP anyway.

Bottom line, the SPL at the listening position will be determined primarily by the 1) the distance from the direct sound of the speaker, and 2) proximity of the speakers to the boundary walls that impact the earliest and highest level reflections. The SPL added by the late reflections may be a minor factor, but significantly diminished relative to the first two. Moving the listening position further away from the speakers will increase the speaker/amplifier requirements requirements significantly. The 6 dB drop that accompanies a doubling of distance, doubles the required driver excursion AND doubles the amplifier power required to drive the doubled excursion.

I use this SPL calculator: https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html It factors in speaker seating distance, distance to boundary walls, speaker sensitivity, amplifier power, and number of speakers. It does NOT factor in the cubic volume of the room. It's not perfect and I only use it as a starting point, but it makes more sense to me than using cubic volume to determine maximum speaker SPL capability. (In addition, I always factor in 6 dB of headroom over the maximum required SPL level. No system I've helped design has ever suffered from "not enough speaker for the room." )

Triad speakers make this easier due to their generally high sensitivity and strong power handling, and their ability to retain their sound quality at higher SPL's. The fact that they're all designed for use with subwoofers, and have specifically limited LF extension, is also a benefit.

Subwoofers are a completely different story, and there, room volume becomes the primary determinant. But that's a whole different discussion.

Craig
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I just re-read my post above, and it seems like it might come across as a rebuke of Dawn Gordon. That was NOT my intention in any way, shape or form. It was intended to be commentary on Triad's Speaker Size Selection Guidelines, which, IMO, are misguided. I sincerely apologize to Dawn if she, or anyone else, thought I was questioning her.

Dawn has been a excellent ambassador for Triad and they should be recognizing all the things she does for their brand. In fact, she has been a better ambassador for Triad than Triad itself. She has provided more helpful content about Triad speakers with her Triadspeakersforum.com website than the pitiful excuse for a website Triad/Control4/SnapAV provides. People at least have a source of information about Triad speakers, something Triad is unwilling or unable to provide themselves.

And she is always on here answering questions and helping forum members get the information they need! Please keep up the GREAT WORK, Dawn!

Craig

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post #10365 of 10519 Old 04-28-2020, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
I just re-read my post above, and it seems like it might come across as a rebuke of Dawn Gordon. That was NOT my intention in any way, shape or form. It was intended to be commentary on Triad's Speaker Size Selection Guidelines, which, IMO, are misguided. I sincerely apologize to Dawn if she, or anyone else, thought I was questioning her.

Dawn has been a excellent ambassador for Triad and they should be recognizing all the things she does for their brand. In fact, she has been a better ambassador for Triad than Triad itself. She has provided more helpful content about Triad speakers with her Triadspeakersforum.com website than the pitiful excuse for a website Triad/Control4/SnapAV provides. People at least have a source of information about Triad speakers, something Triad is unwilling or unable to provide themselves.

And she is always on here answering questions and helping forum members get the information they need! Please keep up the GREAT WORK, Dawn!

Craig
Wow, thanks for the kind words Craig!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
I just re-read my post above, and it seems like it might come across as a rebuke of Dawn Gordon. That was NOT my intention in any way, shape or form. It was intended to be commentary on Triad's Speaker Size Selection Guidelines, which, IMO, are misguided. I sincerely apologize to Dawn if she, or anyone else, thought I was questioning her.

Dawn has been a excellent ambassador for Triad and they should be recognizing all the things she does for their brand. In fact, she has been a better ambassador for Triad than Triad itself. She has provided more helpful content about Triad speakers with her Triadspeakersforum.com website than the pitiful excuse for a website Triad/Control4/SnapAV provides. People at least have a source of information about Triad speakers, something Triad is unwilling or unable to provide themselves.

And she is always on here answering questions and helping forum members get the information they need!

Please keep up the GREAT WORK, Dawn!

Craig
Morning Craig,

I can add to the above ^^^ regarding Dawn Gordon.

I reached-out to her a long time ago and she got me instantly on the right track.

Thanks Dawn,
Terry
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Could someone please comment on gold vs silver LCRs? Is it similar to silver vs bronze where one just plays louder but pretty much sounds the same? Assuming we arent pushing the boundaries on room size would golds sound better and deliver a superior cinema experience or is it mostly an SPL thing?

Thanks.
I have a small room and sit 8 feet from my screen wall. I have used for GOLD LCR and BRONZE LCR in the room. The Gold did not sound better, probably because I am within the capabilities of the Bronze given my short listening distance.

In fact, I would say the Bronze sound better from a coherence and imaging standpoint at my short seating distance. (May be because the drivers integrate better at a short distance, or I was able to get the tweeters closer to ear height, or they require less juice to run -- though I was using a dedicated Parasound amp -- or maybe just placebo?)

I would say, if you have more budget than you need for the appropriate LCR and you want to upgrade the audio, don't buy the next larger LCR but, rather, buy the MONITOR version of the same "level" (ie, SILVER MONITOR instead of SILVER LCR).
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post #10368 of 10519 Old 04-30-2020, 11:15 AM
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It's Back!!!

TriadSpeakers.com

Have fun folks!
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Triad Website is Back

It's Back!!!

www.TriadSpeakers.com

Have fun folks!
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post #10370 of 10519 Old 04-30-2020, 11:30 AM
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Still no speaker or sub plot graphs or other pertinent tech data that has been requested countless times listed on their site.
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post #10371 of 10519 Old 04-30-2020, 11:43 AM
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Triad website updates and changes:

" All product pages simplified for a cleaner look and accurate data
" All product data sheets now link to the data sheets we use on the Dealer Portal, improving the accuracy of data
" Many out-of-date plug-ins used on the site have been updated or disabled
" Cleaner theme applied
" Product tile size is now consistent, providing a cleaner look
" Contact information updated
" Full security audit of the site
" Many more bug fixes/clean ups

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It looks nice! I really like that there's now public links to data sheets and installation manuals, it was very hard for consumers to track down those installation instructions or other non-marketing content.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Gordon View Post
Triad website updates and changes:

" All product pages simplified for a cleaner look and accurate data
" All product data sheets now link to the data sheets we use on the Dealer Portal, improving the accuracy of data
" Many out-of-date plug-ins used on the site have been updated or disabled
" Cleaner theme applied
" Product tile size is now consistent, providing a cleaner look
" Contact information updated
" Full security audit of the site
" Many more bug fixes/clean ups
Hi Dawn,

This is "good" news... really "good" news! However, "great" news would be Triad adding all the anechoic measurement data they certainly have stored away in their vaults. I will be sending them another e-mail requesting this.

Just as background to this: I have had someone on the forum tell me Triad is "hiding" their measurements. I had someone suggest I send my speakers to SoundStage* to have them measured. I had someone else tell me to inquire if Harman would be willing to foot the bill for shipping in order to get them measured. There is absolutely NO REASON I, or anyone else, should need to go to these lengths to get these data! Triad has anechoic chambers. There is no doubt they've used them for speaker design and improvement. They already have the information! Why not SHARE it???

Anyway, thanks for letting us know about the website being back up, Dawn!

Craig

*https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/me...udspeakers.htm
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post #10374 of 10519 Old 05-01-2020, 06:55 AM
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They already have the information! Why not SHARE it???
While I am 100% in your camp, I can think of reasons (from Triad's perspective) why not to share them. Unless the viewer of those numbers is reasonably well informed, AND unless Triad would share all of the pertinent data - (frequency response, impulse response, step response, phase response, polar response, etc) it would be very likely that the data might not be interpreted correctly "by the masses" and could actually do more harm than good. Let us not forget, that we AVSers who have some knowledge on the subject are a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny portion of their clients. And FWIW, Triad is far from the only speaker company who chooses to not share these kinds of numbers.

A small (and sort of related) example. I have this cool and fairly inexpensive product that measures speaker polarity, and can also test for correct cable wiring, etc. I use it when I calibrate someone's completed theater to insure all of the wiring is done correctly, cable issues, etc. When you measure, for example, the Triad In-Room Silvers with this device, you can quickly determine that the tweeter and woofers are wired out of phase - but on purpose. Not uncommon for lots of speakers. Someone who doesn't understand could easily misinterpret and assume the speaker was assembled incorrectly.

All of that said, it will be interesting to see how Triad responds.
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While I am 100% in your camp, I can think of reasons (from Triad's perspective) why not to share them. Unless the viewer of those numbers is reasonably well informed, AND unless Triad would share all of the pertinent data - (frequency response, impulse response, step response, phase response, polar response, etc) it would be very likely that the data might not be interpreted correctly "by the masses" and could actually do more harm than good. Let us not forget, that we AVSers who have some knowledge on the subject are a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny portion of their clients. And FWIW, Triad is far from the only speaker company who chooses to not share these kinds of numbers.

A small (and sort of related) example. I have this cool and fairly inexpensive product that measures speaker polarity, and can also test for correct cable wiring, etc. I use it when I calibrate someone's completed theater to insure all of the wiring is done correctly, cable issues, etc. When you measure, for example, the Triad In-Room Silvers with this device, you can quickly determine that the tweeter and woofers are wired out of phase - but on purpose. Not uncommon for lots of speakers. Someone who doesn't understand could easily misinterpret and assume the speaker was assembled incorrectly.

All of that said, it will be interesting to see how Triad responds.
Audioguy



Chuck,

Very-very well stated ^^^


Terry
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post #10376 of 10519 Old 05-01-2020, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
While I am 100% in your camp, I can think of reasons (from Triad's perspective) why not to share them. Unless the viewer of those numbers is reasonably well informed, AND unless Triad would share all of the pertinent data - (frequency response, impulse response, step response, phase response, polar response, etc) it would be very likely that the data might not be interpreted correctly "by the masses" and could actually do more harm than good. Let us not forget, that we AVSers who have some knowledge on the subject are a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny portion of their clients. And FWIW, Triad is far from the only speaker company who chooses to not share these kinds of numbers.

A small (and sort of related) example. I have this cool and fairly inexpensive product that measures speaker polarity, and can also test for correct cable wiring, etc. I use it when I calibrate someone's completed theater to insure all of the wiring is done correctly, cable issues, etc. When you measure, for example, the Triad In-Room Silvers with this device, you can quickly determine that the tweeter and woofers are wired out of phase - but on purpose. Not uncommon for lots of speakers. Someone who doesn't understand could easily misinterpret and assume the speaker was assembled incorrectly.

All of that said, it will be interesting to see how Triad responds.
Hi Chuck,

I'm sure there are many companies who feel that keeping their proprietary "secret sauce" out of the public eye, and away from the prying eyes of their competitors, is beneficial to their bottom line. I can even understand the concern some companies might have that their measurements would be misinterpreted by a naive public. However, these measurements are "standards" that are specified by the American National Standards Institute, (ANSI):
https://webstore.ansi.org/standards/cea/cea20342015ansi
and the Consumer Technology Association:
https://standards.cta.tech/apps/grou...project_id=165
(I have the .pdf of the standards document and can send it to you if you like.)

In the words of the CTA:
Quote:
Project Description:This standard describes an improved method for measuring and reporting the performance of a loudspeaker in a manner that should help consumers better understand the performance of the loudspeaker and convey a reasonably good representation of how it may sound in a room based on its off-axis response and how this response affects the consumers experience.
(Emphasis added by me.)

To that end, these measurements should be available to the public. In fact, there are now a number of manufacturers who believe that publication of the measurements is actually a marketing advantage. (Of course, this would only apply to manufacturers who's measurements actually "measure up.")

Custom Installation is the foundation of Triad's business model. These measurements can help CI's design, install and calibrate Triad speakers. With on-axis and dispersion measurements, installers can better specify, select and install specialized loudspeakers, such as LCR, in-wall, in-ceiling, and reflective speakers for surround and overhead 3D applications. Consumers who use Custom Installers rarely even know what speakers are installed in their system, much less knowing what the spec's and measurements are or how to read them. Triad isn't an Internet Direct dealer nor a retailer. Therefore, I doubt Triad has much to lose from "the masses" misinterpreting their data, and I believe they have much to gain from making it available to the people who know how to use it, (like you and me! )

Craig

Lombardi said it:
"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.
My System (Edited Feb. 2020 to add 4K and Atmos updates)
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post #10377 of 10519 Old 05-03-2020, 05:52 AM
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^^^ As I noted in my original statement above, I totally agree with you on why they should should publish that kind of data. I was only postulating a possibility of why they may not be doing it.

Not exactly related: I was once a Kaleidescape Owner but eventually sold it all and one of the reasons I did so was because they were (and, in my opinion, still are) horrible at communicating what is going on in the company. And us A/V folks, when no information is forthcoming, tend to assume the worst.

Just sayin' !!
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post #10378 of 10519 Old 05-03-2020, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
^^^ As I noted in my original statement above, I totally agree with you on why they should should publish that kind of data. I was only postulating a possibility of why they may not be doing it.

Not exactly related: I was once a Kaleidescape Owner but eventually sold it all and one of the reasons I did so was because they were (and, in my opinion, still are) horrible at communicating what is going on in the company. And us A/V folks, when no information is forthcoming, tend to assume the worst.

Just sayin' !!

Plus the fact that with a closed system like K-Scape's, if they go belly up... you're basically screwed.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #10379 of 10519 Old 05-03-2020, 09:59 AM
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Which is the 2nd reason I bailed. The first was I wanted to be 100% discless and once they went to 4K, no longer possible. Lastly, they still don”t initially deliver all Atmos movies in Atmos. Unlike Triad who appears to be on solid footing, I have serious doubts on the long term viability of K-Scape!
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post #10380 of 10519 Old 05-07-2020, 07:16 PM
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What amps do you use/recommend to power the Gold Inroom speakers? I'd need LCR speakers and corresponding amps.
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