Official Pioneer SC-05 and SC-07 Owners Thread - Page 507 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15181 of 17207 Old 01-06-2010, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aseer View Post

Yup, an 07 (still have the 94, 74, and 82 and a few others. The 94 is very close in performance but I wanted to explore the capabilities of the 07).

Once my speaker vendor learned about the specifics of the pulse train that the SC's switching ICE amps were emitting they quickly figured out what was going on and a quick mod to the cross over showed they were correct. The SC's combo of switching amp and shutdown mechanism is incompatible with some speakers, there is no longer any question about this.

I would love to see what someone else's SC looks like on a scope as I am worried the migration from shutdown at volume to shutdown with no content means something was damaged. Getting Pioneer to pay attention to this has been incredibly frustrating (for a guy who owns 9 pioneer AVRs/head units I really hoped for better treatment, though owning even one should be enough).

I'm glad you got it figured out!
Hopefully, bengrimm will too.
Although, I'm a big fan of crossoverless loudspeakers, it's a pretty tough route to take when most of the better loudspeaker designs that I like incorporate a crossover.
Luckily, few of those are complex.
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post #15182 of 17207 Old 01-06-2010, 03:05 PM
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It is a high frequency effect (which is the part of the X-over that was modd'd to address it), my speakers are 6-8ohm's. If it helps, I'll repost the photos of the output of my 07.
(time scale and amplitude should be readable off the picture, but you can see the pulse train and the frequency pretty clearly)

Could be that I have a bad sc07 but two sc's caused shutdown over at least 3 identical speakers, I only took scope pictures of one of the SC's.

btw, these shots are with no content playing. The pulses I saw are there with or without content.

{if anyone else scopes their SC's outputs, I would love to see the photos}
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

^^
I'm no expert but it seems very strange that certain speakers are triggering the shutdown. Is this impedance related or something else in the design?
And if it is design, what specifically do they say is the problem?

All I know is my 4 ohm Magnepans are not doing this to the SC-09.


LL
LL
LL
LL
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post #15183 of 17207 Old 01-06-2010, 04:45 PM
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Last night I was experimenting with my 07's MCACC calibration system when I came across a screen that gave me two options, subwoofer at 0.0 dbs or +10 dbs. I decided to try the +10 option and obviously found it was too much, for some reason, I can't re-locate that screen. I remember that it was very simply a blue rectangle top center, nothing else on the page. I could use the 9 and 3 o'clock arrows to shift between 0.0db & +10db. Does anyone have any information on locating this option so I can set it back to 0.0db and adjust in the "channel level" page.
Thanks in advance for any help.

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post #15184 of 17207 Old 01-06-2010, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markeetaux View Post

Last night I was experimenting with my 07's MCACC calibration system when I came across a screen that gave me two options, subwoofer at 0.0 dbs or +10 dbs. I decided to try the +10 option and obviously found it was too much, for some reason, I can't re-locate that screen. I remember that it was very simply a blue rectangle top center, nothing else on the page. I could use the 9 and 3 o'clock arrows to shift between 0.0db & +10db. Does anyone have any information on locating this option so I can set it back to 0.0db and adjust in the "channel level" page.
Thanks in advance for any help.

Sounds like you stumbled upon the Multichannel Subwoofer Output Gain control, which is designed to compensate for the way some disc players are designed. It should only work with the analog multichannel inputs, but maybe not...

Anyway, it's well buried, but you can get to it from HOME MENU. > System Setup > Other Setup > Multi Ch In Setup > SW Input Gain.
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post #15185 of 17207 Old 01-06-2010, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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markeetaux,

I think your'e looking at the Multi Channel Input Setup in "OTHER" setup

page 94:
Multi Channel Input Setup
Select the ‘SW Input Gain’ setting you want.
0dB – Outputs sound of the subwoofer at the level
originally recorded on the source.
+10dB – Outputs sound of the subwoofer at the level
increased by 10 dB.

Alternatively, it may have been in the MCACC Advanced Menu...

Page 47 Fine Channel Level..

3. Select each channel in turn and adjust the levels (+/–10dB) as necessary.

The only other place I can see is under LFE ATT (page 97.. other functions)
(but that one give you options of -5,-10,-15,-20db or off)

Some Dolby Digital and DTS
audio sources include ultra-low
bass tones. Set the LFE attenuator
as necessary to prevent the ultralow
bass tones from distorting the
sound from the speakers.
The LFE is not limited when set to
0 dB, which is the recommended
value. When set to –5 dB, –10 dB,
–15 dB or –20 dB, the LFE is
limited by the respective degree.
When OFF is selected, no sound
is output from the LFE channel.


Hope that helps.

edit: But Macfan beat me to it

"you're just jealous 'cause the voices only talk to me"
Questions about the SC-07 or SC-05? start here
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post #15186 of 17207 Old 01-06-2010, 07:27 PM
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Thanks, found it.

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post #15187 of 17207 Old 01-06-2010, 09:16 PM
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since it is near impossible to come up with a keyword to search this massive thread with i am going to just post my question and see what you guys come up with.

is anyone using an external amp with their receivers?

if so what brand? what wattage? what configuration?

i feel i need more powa'...

although i did find a neat little trick that i can do while running mcacc.

i turn my furnace all the way up and let it run the entire time i am running mcacc.. that way even when the furnace cuts on i still have plenty of loudness.. i noticed though the gf complains much more now of the movies being too loud...

i have an sc-05 with mythos 2 and 3 for the fronts and polk rt35i for the rears.. looking to get another set of rt35i's or the equivalent to complete 7.1 surround.
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post #15188 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtv47lg70 View Post

i turn my furnace all the way up and let it run the entire time i am running mcacc.. that way even when the furnace cuts on i still have plenty of loudness.. i noticed though the gf complains much more now of the movies being too loud.

If it works for you, that's good But I wouldn't recommend this.

MCACC is not only compensating for the noise but also changing the freq response from your speakers to include the backgound sound. Also the noise may actually confuse the system as to speaker distances or delay times.

Your GF may be reacting not just to loud but also HOW it sounds and maybe you should listen to her

Frankly what you did is not a good idea & not recommended. It isn't designed to be used that way. Not one manufacturer's auto-calibration/EQ system is either - MCACC, Audyssey, YPAO, Lexicon's, Anthem's ARC, Classe, Harmon Kardons, Sherwood's Trinnov.....not even Bose Not even hi priced standalone room correction EQ'r boxes are supposed to be used with ambient noise.

ss9001
Steve

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post #15189 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

If it works for you, that's good But I wouldn't recommend this.

MCACC is not only compensating for the noise but also changing the freq response from your speakers to include the backgound sound. Also the noise may actually confuse the system as to speaker distances or delay times.

Your GF may be reacting not just to loud but also HOW it sounds and maybe you should listen to her

Frankly what you did is not a good idea & not recommended. It isn't designed to be used that way. Not one manufacturer's auto-calibration/EQ system is either - MCACC, Audyssey, YPAO, Lexicon's, Anthem's ARC, Classe, Harmon Kardons, Sherwood's Trinnov.....not even Bose Not even hi priced standalone room correction EQ'r boxes are supposed to be used with ambient noise.

ss9001
Steve

holy hell.. ok i get it... lol. you drove that point home.. .. thanks bro.
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post #15190 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtv47lg70 View Post

...i feel i need more powa'...

...even when the furnace cuts on i still have plenty of loudness.. i noticed though the gf complains much more now of the movies being too loud...

i have an sc-05 with mythos 2 and 3 for the fronts and polk rt35i for the rears.. looking to get another set of rt35i's or the equivalent to complete 7.1 surround.

You may want more power, but I seriously doubt that you need it.

Your speakers are very efficient. I have a Mythos Three (together with STS's up front) and my meters confirm it draws very little power. It's rated at 91dB sensitivity, which means if you were using an average of one watt, your GF would probably issue an ultimatum.

Try this calculator to get an idea of how much power you actually use in your setup. Most people assume they use much more than they actually do.

ss9001 covered the setup issue rather throughly. I just want to add that MCACC adjusts the output so that "0" on its scale equals reference level output (85dB, much louder than most people will tolerate for long). With your sensitive speakers, that means it will substantially reduce output at any given reading. Don't worry about the number on the front panel. If you want it louder, just turn up the volume. You aren't using up the amp's reserves. Reference levels -- "0" -- will draw less than one watt with your speakers in a typical room. Even then, your AVR has plenty in reserve (it goes to ~ +12).
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post #15191 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

If it works for you, that's good But I wouldn't recommend this.

MCACC is not only compensating for the noise but also changing the freq response from your speakers to include the backgound sound. Also the noise may actually confuse the system as to speaker distances or delay times.

Your GF may be reacting not just to loud but also HOW it sounds and maybe you should listen to her

Frankly what you did is not a good idea & not recommended. It isn't designed to be used that way. Not one manufacturer's auto-calibration/EQ system is either - MCACC, Audyssey, YPAO, Lexicon's, Anthem's ARC, Classe, Harmon Kardons, Sherwood's Trinnov.....not even Bose Not even hi priced standalone room correction EQ'r boxes are supposed to be used with ambient noise.

ss9001
Steve

If the furnace runs 95% of the time would your answer still stand? I would think not
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post #15192 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 11:06 AM
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So last night I got the last zone (until this summer) up and running and just wanted to thank everyone.

I have completed a long write-up of exactly what I am running and how things are working, but I have a guy finishing my baseboard (the only thing besides dry-wall that I am not doing myself in the basement) and as soon as he is done I will add pictures to the writeup and post here.

Short story -- I am running two 720p TV's, one RS2 Projector, one 7.1 system and 4 in-ceiling speakers in the pool / bar room. The SC-07 is running it all with the help of a cheap audiosource amplifier. It works great. Displays goes through HDMI 1 and 2 out and component out for zone 2. I will probably bypass HDMI 2 out and get a HDMI splitter since that will be the only way to pass audio through HDMI at the same time as the 7.1 system is active (only shortcoming that I have found with the SC-07).

This summer I will add speakers on the deck for zone 3

I finally got the sound working for zone 2 last night and the issues was related to the speaker bindings on the amplifier. I must say that the SC-07 is pretty darn straight forward with great labeling and a fantastic manual. That combined with all the help from this thread (that I have scrolled through and finally read about 95% off) has helped me on the way.

Thanks all!
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post #15193 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhdiab View Post

If the furnace runs 95% of the time would your answer still stand? I would think not

I'd say it would. MCACC may read the furnace noise as part of the speaker output and include it in its calculations, thereby invalidating its room/speaker measurements.

It may be necessary to raise the playback volume to hear over the furnace, but for MCACC to change its EQ and phase calculations because of it would only exacerbate matters. On the other hand, if the furnace is that loud, I'd expect MCACC to say the ambient noise is too high and refuse to run in the first place. I'd guess that it has some sort of threshold built in, and ignores responses below that level, which could make this discussion moot.

In any case, to be on the safe side I always make a point of shutting off all external sources of noise before running MCACC. I once had an airplane fly over while I was running it, which really screwed up the EQ.

BTW, congratulations on finally getting your setup near where you want it.
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post #15194 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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mhdiab;

Congratulations!
When do we get to see pictures??

Also, if you could write up how you have your zones connected and what they are controlling, I will link it to the front page.

As to turning your furnace on during MCACC.. nothing to add, ss9001 and MacFan have it pretty much covered, except, maybe you can experiment by doing two separate MCACC calibrations.. one with and one without the extra ambient noise, saving them to different memories.. then you can hear the differences for yourself.. I think you will find you want it as quiet as possible when doing MCACC...

"you're just jealous 'cause the voices only talk to me"
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post #15195 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhdiab View Post

If the furnace runs 95% of the time would your answer still stand? I would think not

And I would think so

MCACC is NOT supposed to be used with a lot of background noise. It clearly states that in the manual and it even checks for ambient noise in the setup.

Let's think about this and use some common sense here. Let's say the furnace sounds are in the mid to upper midrange frequencies.

The receiver pink noise (or white, I don't remember which) test tones include those very same frequencies. So, you have random mid's coming from the floor or ceiling still being picked up by the mic. All the time, it's measuring those frequencies and altering the speaker output to try to match some target curve. Your speakers are being adjusted in a way that artificially masks their true response and the response of the room. In ways that aren't even predictable.

At face value, the least it would do is LOWER the speakers mids because it senses more of them than normally would be present.

Perceived loudness & clarity, especially of dialog and critical mids, would be then be thrown off from what it would be normally. Depending on one's hearing, and females typically have better hi freq response than us men, if the mids are reduced, then the highs & lows may be perceived as louder or harsher.

On top of impact to the freq response, the noise coming from various places in the room will be picked up by the mic and could partially mask the reflected clicks used to accurately measure speaker distance & delay times.

I don't see how anyone with any knowledge of how these auto cal systems are supposed to work could have any doubts about this.

Furnace noise, air conditioners running, appliances, car running in the garage, sirens down the street, airplanes flying by....it plain doesn't matter...the noise could reduce the accuracy of the room measurements.

That's why ALL the manufacturers tell you to do the calibration when it's quiet or low ambient noise.


If accuracy of measurement is not the goal, then there's no point in using a system like MCACC or Audyssey in the 1st place.

And if you think you're compensating for having the furnace running all the time, you certainly are altering the freq response, but whether it's a positive change or not is another matter. And you have introduced a factor that could interfere with the accuracy of all the measurements used to calibrate the speakers for optimum soundfield & blending of channels.

I've seen changing my own position in the room, adding a blanket on the couch, or move the mic 6" change some of the EQ and channel levels.

The measurements are best taken in quiet and if you want to tweak the settings, do them manually like CHP_VR says and save as a custom setting.

My advice is do like I do, try turning the AC/furnace off for serious watching/listening or turn the volume up when it's running

ss9001
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post #15196 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

I once had an airplane fly over while I was running it, which really screwed up the EQ.

Thanks, Macfan, exactly what I was trying to say but I took longer to say it
I just had to do some embelishing in my last post, tho

ss9001

Steve
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post #15197 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Frankly what you did is not a good idea & not recommended. It isn't designed to be used that way. Not one manufacturer's auto-calibration/EQ system is either - MCACC, Audyssey, YPAO, Lexicon's, Anthem's ARC, Classe, Harmon Kardons, Sherwood's Trinnov.....not even Bose Not even hi priced standalone room correction EQ'r boxes are supposed to be used with ambient noise.

ss9001
Steve

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtv47lg70 View Post

holy hell.. ok i get it... lol. you drove that point home.. .. thanks bro.

Wow, I'll bet you didn't know you had an estranged brother.
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post #15198 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Great write up, ss9001!

Thanks for putting it all together and making sense and reason out of it!

Personally, IMO, I still say the best way of doing MCACC is chasing everyone out of the room and hiding behind the couch

"you're just jealous 'cause the voices only talk to me"
Questions about the SC-07 or SC-05? start here
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post #15199 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CHP_VR View Post

..Personally, IMO, I still say the best way of doing MCACC is chasing everyone out of the room and hiding behind the couch

Great minds think alike

Steve
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post #15200 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

..e "strange" d brother.

That's me!
Strange....

My motto is from the old Doors song: People Are Strange

Steve
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post #15201 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhdiab View Post

I finally got the sound working for zone 2 last night and the issues was related to the speaker bindings on the amplifier. I must say that the SC-07 is pretty darn straight forward with great labeling and a fantastic manual. That combined with all the help from this thread (that I have scrolled through and finally read about 95% off) has helped me on the way.

Thanks all!

mhdiab,
Congratulations on getting your setup the way you want it!
Got some photos you can share or have you posted some yet & I missed it?

ss9001

Steve
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post #15202 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post


I don't see how anyone with any knowledge of how these auto cal systems are supposed to work could have any doubts about this.


Steve

Well then we got that established about me

OK I had doubts because my thinking was that it was setting up the speakers to adjust for the additional noise and by including it it would produce a signal that sounds like it is intended to since that is what the system does. My lack of understanding of the system was that it sends out a tone that it knows exactly how it sounds - it runs it through the system back through the mic and then compares the result to what it transmitted. It then revises the signal that it sends out to something that returns a sound that it is supposed to be like.

Now the predictable part is another good point that I wasn't considering - system on 95% of the time doesn't mean it sounds exactly the same etc

Either way my AC system comes on and off - I leave it running during movies but do turn down the "heat" so that it won't come on very often. Leave it off for music.

CHP -- I have a 2 page Word write-up done. It has links to every item that I am connecting to the SC-07. The baseboard guy should be done tomorrow and then I will clean everything up on Saturday and take pictures. Don't want pictures with the current mess. First party on Sunday (wife scheduled it so I would get things done - I think)

EDIT: And thanks for all the congrats - I am very thrilled about it. When I got first video and then sound in the pool table room last night my face just lit up. My wife even came down to look at it - I know she only did it because of how happy I was about it. But then she went - that is pretty cool
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post #15203 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHP_VR View Post

Great write up, ss9001!

Personally, IMO, I still say the best way of doing MCACC is chasing everyone out of the room and hiding behind the couch

This is what I did. Then I had to go upstairs and yell at the wife for walking around
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post #15204 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhdiab View Post

This is what I did. Then I had to go upstairs and yell at the wife for walking around

I'm surprised that anyone gets past even explaining to the wife what you are doing by running MCACC or any calibration method in the first place.
They all get that puzzled look on their face.
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post #15205 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking forward to reading your writeup, mhdiab

Yeah, I've threatened to super-glue all the vases and pots and use lag bolts to fasten all the tables and chairs down, so she can't change them around and mess up my calibrations

But then she gives me "the look"...

So for now, I just chase her out and show patience and long suffering perseverance by rerunning MCACC...

"you're just jealous 'cause the voices only talk to me"
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post #15206 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 02:24 PM
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aseer,
When you say modifying the xover, do u mean in the speaker itself?
I've never hooked em up as mono speakers with the jumper plate, so far always either bi-wired or bi-amped. Would it change anything if i just used 1 L/R wire per spkr?

You'd have to explain to me in layman's terms what you measured w/ the scope and what you're looking for.
Are you saying the SC is adding something extra in the hi freq's which causes itself to overload and shut down?

After adding banana's to more outputs and moving around some wires/checking for frays (haven't done a full disconnect/connect yet) I tried tripping up the SC w/ the same Fight Club scene, with and without Digital Safety on. It still shut down but I was able to turn the vol up slightly w/ DS on. I did this quite a few times which I think was a bad idea now. I listened to some music after and it seemed like the sound was a little harsher. Is it possible that I damaged the tweeters? I'm going to listen to them again tonite cuz I'm sure my hearing was affected by the loud scene.

btw, if anyone would like to watch the Fight Club scene (Blu-ray) at -14dB I'd like to know how your SC's hold up. It's actually pretty deafening at that vol although the rest of the movie is just fine. Chapter 9, when the plane is getting torn apart in the air. I think it's because all 5 ch are really loud at the same time. Good torture test for any home theatre but really loud. Lasts about 10-15 sec I think.

aseer,
could you also explain the coupling effect of the SC and spkr XO? if I lengthened my wire it will reduce it?
thanks in advance you guys.
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post #15207 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

I'm surprised that anyone gets past even explaining to the wife what you are doing by running MCACC or any calibration method in the first place.
They all get that puzzed look on their face.

No explanation is needed. I don't need to give her more reasons to shake her head. I simply informed her that due to what I was doing I needed to know when there would be ZERO sound from above besides the low volume that the TV was on. She agreed to not move around especially over the HT - worked like a charm without a weird conversation that would have included rolling eyes and shaking ones head
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post #15208 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 03:46 PM
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mhdiab;

Congratulations!
When do we get to see pictures??

Also, if you could write up how you have your zones connected and what they are controlling, I will link it to the front page.

As to turning your furnace on during MCACC.. nothing to add, ss9001 and MacFan have it pretty much covered, except, maybe you can experiment by doing two separate MCACC calibrations.. one with and one without the extra ambient noise, saving them to different memories.. then you can hear the differences for yourself.. I think you will find you want it as quiet as possible when doing MCACC...

I even removed ticking clocks from the room when I ran MCACC on my SC-25.

Spoiler!
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post #15209 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 06:51 PM
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I read a review on the SC-27 today that was from October.
The reviewer stated that the AVR was compatible with all loudspeakers.
Now, I don't know why the SC-07 would be any different.
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post #15210 of 17207 Old 01-07-2010, 07:03 PM
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I even removed ticking clocks from the room when I ran MCACC on my SC-25.

i thought that i was the only one who did this! hahaha
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