Yamaha RX-Z7 reciever. - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 1294 Old 10-02-2008, 09:36 PM
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I'll be the first to admit the manual is weak in some areas -- another "rush to market" issue, I'm afraid, as you have to have production-final hardware and software in hand before you can write spec, and that has obviously been delayed for everyone this year.

If Yamaha could provide a screen shot of the GUI showing how you adjust the individual channel crossovers in the new system it would help (and show that individual crossovers are indeed possible). Unlike the old screen option that said "Crossover" and had the usual 40, 60, 80, etc. options, in the new system the crossover choices are in the 'Speaker Set' settings. The crossover frequency is shown to the right of the word "Small" for each speaker type. You just keep moving the 'cursor' to the right until you are over the crossover frequency shown, and it becomes an adjustment slider allowing you to change the frequency. This is not documented in the Z11, Z7, or 3900 manuals.
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post #32 of 1294 Old 10-02-2008, 10:07 PM
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Hey guys,

You might might want to read the bass management section of the Z11 review at audioholics it will likely clear this up. I have included the link below for easy reference. I will say this I have been a yamaha fan for some time.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/r...ass-management

I read it as a plus and minus regarding bass management.

The one thing that the Z7 does offer compared to the Z11 is standing wave correction. Not sure it that makes much of a difference.

I am currious to know if that Z7 uses the same DACs and OPAMPs as the Z11.
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post #33 of 1294 Old 10-02-2008, 10:28 PM
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So what do we have for Gene to test?

On the video side, we have:

HDMI unclipped 0-255?

2010 features actually implemented. This post in the DVDO Edge thread
https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1262
lists the 2010 feature set. Probably the most requsted item in the Edge thread is YCbCr output in addition to RGB. Certainly the Prep feature should be tested with a 480p source and a 1080i monitor.

Overall PQ with standard DVD's from a 480i player to a 1080p display. Best would be a subjective comparison with an Oppo 983. "Would you be better off getting a 3900 and a 983?"

Audio side:

Is the LFE track truncated above the sub xo? (Does anyone make a test DVD that has test tones encoded on the LFE track?)

The other tests I can think of will all end up being "compared to the 3900".

Anything else? Specific networking capabilities?
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post #34 of 1294 Old 10-02-2008, 10:56 PM
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Thanks, Bigdwest!

I'll paraphrase a couple of points from Gene's test of the RX-Z11 here:

The sub crossover frequency tracks what you have your main (front) speakers set to. So you can't set your center, surround, etc. xo's much higher than your mains or you'll loose a portion of the bass.

Avoid the "Front/Back" sub option for dual subs, as it sends LFE only to the back and redirected only to the front, which is not a good option to reduce standing wave patterns.


So despite the "independent" crossover frequencies, we're back to setting everything to the same frequency.

The Z11 does have a boundary compensation option -- it's in the THX settings, and requires that you tell the Z11 that you have a THX Ultra 2 certified subwoofer (I think my two SVS Ultras qualify ). It also has a switchable standing wave control.
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post #35 of 1294 Old 10-03-2008, 12:25 AM
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Is it just me or is there some humor in how the site truncated the URL to the audioholics site?

audioholics.com/reviews/r...ass-management

I promise guys I am not 10.

LOL
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post #36 of 1294 Old 10-03-2008, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdwest View Post

...The one thing that the Z7 does offer compared to the Z11 is standing wave correction. Not sure it that makes much of a difference.

I'm sure you meant to say that the Z7 does not offer the standing wave correction of the Z11. This feature could be quite useful, as the normal PEQ does not have have enough resolution to do much in the low bass region.
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post #37 of 1294 Old 10-04-2008, 12:20 PM
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Here's another potential Z7 test for Gene from the Z11 thread:

Assuming that the Z7 has the same bass crossover setup as the Z11, since the low-pass side of the xo to the sub tracks what you set the high-pass to the mains to, what sub xo is set if the mains are set to Large?
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post #38 of 1294 Old 10-04-2008, 11:42 PM
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I have RX-Z1 and i love it, just sold because it lacks HDMI and the new HD audio formats.

How Z7 compares to Z1 ? Z7 have better components than Z1, regarding audio area ?

Z7 can handle B&W 704 ?

I bought Denon 4308 and sold it in 3 months...Denon never more...

I was thinking to get Marantz AV8003 + MM8003, but since i always have Yamaha and love it, i had DSP-A1 before RX-Z1...and now may be an RX-Z7, but it is that good, have a decent power amplification and fast dynamics with a clear sound ?
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post #39 of 1294 Old 10-06-2008, 10:41 AM
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Another thing,...the weight of RX-Z7 is only 40lbs against 62lbs from Z1 and 73lbs from Z11.

The RX-Z7 have the same weight as Denon 4308...

The weight is connected to the power amplifiers, so the RX-Z7 can really deliver 140W to each channel ?

[]s
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post #40 of 1294 Old 10-06-2008, 01:29 PM
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I don't think the Z7 would deliver full rated power to every channel. But the obvious reason for a difference in weight is due to the fact it has seven amplifiers and not eleven amplifiers.

I suspect the Z7s amplifier section and power supply are very much like the 3900s.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #41 of 1294 Old 10-06-2008, 01:54 PM
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Be careful comparing weights; the Z11 chassis is very heavy compared to a standard receiver chassis.

I'm assuming the Z7 power amp section will be similar to the 3800's. Audioholics did not test a 3800 -- the only power test I could find was of an Australian model 3800 which dropped to 85 watts per channel (distortion not specified) with all 7 channels driven. In Audioholics' test of a 4600 it produced 116 watts @ channel with two channels driven into 8 ohms at 0.1% THD.

These numbers are ballpark what I would expect from the Z7 and are typical of receivers in this price category -- and adequate for many 'living room' residential users, since most soundtracks don't call for full power to the surround and rear channels.

Of course if you have a large theater, inefficient speakers, etc. you'll want to add an external power amp. Emotiva has an interesting product, the XP3 -- for under $700 you can power your mains and center at 200 wpc/8ohms, and let your receiver power the surround channels.
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post #42 of 1294 Old 10-11-2008, 10:06 AM
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I hope this is in error, but a poster on Audioholics is reporting that Yamaha is saying the Z7 will only handle 4 ohm speakers for the front main speakers.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ad.php?t=48305

Many folks (including myself) have used all 4 ohm speakers with the RX-V2500 through RX-V3800 without problems at moderate output levels. As pro reviewers have noted, total receiver RMS power output is limited so if all channels are driven simultaneously you may only be able to see 60% or so of the single channel output capability.

What bothers me about the above report is that the only reason I can imagine Yamaha making such a statement is to try to avoid responsibility for power output into multiple 4 ohm speakers.

4 ohm speakers are more and more common -- lower inductance voice coils improve transient response (and use less copper). Even speakers listed as 8 ohm often drop well below that at some frequencies. The B&W 685 is listed as a nominal 8 ohm speaker -- but the minimum impedance is 3.7 ohms.
No one should have to buy a separate power amp to drive a 5.1 system of 685's.

Coupling this with Yamaha's reported statement that they would not update the x800 series firmware to eliminate the HDMI signal clipping "because it is against the HDMI rules",
https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=169
an incorrect statement at best, is leaving me with a very poor impression of Yamaha in general.
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post #43 of 1294 Old 10-11-2008, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggunnell View Post

...Many folks (including myself) have used all 4 ohm speakers with the RX-V2500 through RX-V3800 without problems at moderate output levels...

If the 3800 could handle those speakers, I'm sure the Z7 will. The 3800 manual has the same note concerning 4 ohm speakers.
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post #44 of 1294 Old 10-11-2008, 10:28 AM
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Can anybody interpret "Party Mode" from Yamaha manual-eese to English? (manual p. 129)

What I'd LIKE it to do is play the same source in more than one zone time coherently. The 3800 will play one source in all zones. (That seems to be what the Z7 manual is suggesting Party Mode does. If that's all it does, how's that an advance over, say, the V3800?) But if it's loud enough in the zones to hear it when walking from the main zone to Zone 2 or 3 you get to hear that the extra zones are not coherent and not just by a little bit. It's very disconcerting. If that's what it actually does, I might change my plan of swapping my RX-V3800 for a V3900 to a Z7 instead. (Not sure what the dealer will think of this plan since the Z7 is yet another month out and I've still got the 3800… Maybe the extra $600 or $700 in the deal will sweeten it enough for him?)
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post #45 of 1294 Old 10-11-2008, 10:34 AM
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I bought the Z11 on first release because I had a DSP-1 and really like the soundfields. It's in use in a dedicated home theater and I really wanted the new audio codecs and HDMI switching. I find that I am only using the theater for movies and running in THX mode, so the extra 4 presence speakers aren't doing anything in that mode. So, in perfect hindsight, I would have been better off to have waited to buy the less expensive Z7. It does what I find myself doing all the time. I'm just not sitting in the theater listening to music.

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post #46 of 1294 Old 10-11-2008, 12:23 PM
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Yes, but did you know the Z7 was coming out?

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #47 of 1294 Old 10-11-2008, 05:28 PM
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Yamaha's US web page claims one feature of the Z7 is 38 vs. 22 sound field programs found on the RX-V3900.

Anybody else compared the Z11, X7, and RX-V3900 manuals to figure out what the extra ones are?

It appears to me that the Z7 and V3900 manuals come pretty close to being identical in this area and not like the Z11 manual which clearly lists additional programs. (I didn't try my own census since the PDFs are locked and I can't just copy the sections out.)

I'm doubting that this is a feature they should be claiming for the Z7--or maybe the downloadable manual is wrong.
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post #48 of 1294 Old 10-11-2008, 06:06 PM
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I also count 22 in the manual. No way to know where the discrepency is. I would think they would want every soundfield they have on a Z model.

Unless they wanted to distinguish the 7 from the 11. It's all so confusing

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #49 of 1294 Old 10-11-2008, 10:21 PM
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The Yamaha RX-Z7 press release also says 22. I'm betting 22, but I submitted a question to YEC anyway.
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post #50 of 1294 Old 10-12-2008, 10:40 AM
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So why the Z7 costs much more than 3900 ?

I can't figure out where the big differences are to justify, it seems like more a "Z" marketing thing than a real deal.
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post #51 of 1294 Old 10-12-2008, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FastMHZ View Post

So why the Z7 costs much more than 3900 ?

I can't figure out where the big differences are to justify, it seems like more a "Z" marketing thing than a real deal.

I agree. It looks more like a 3900 than the Z11. And who's going to use a 4th (analog) zone?

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #52 of 1294 Old 10-12-2008, 12:21 PM
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I've ground all the available data. Here are the differences (Z7 over V3900) I find:

• Fifth HDMI input, on front
• Second USB, on rear
• GUI manual setup controls over USB inputs
• 38 vs 22 surround programs on the 1900/3900 (this is cited on the Yamaha specs page and in Yamaha spec comparisons, but the proponderence of available information indicates it just isn't so)
• Angle YPAO
• Optical and coax digital audio, component video outputs on zone 2
• Additional video processing options exposed in GUI
• Four zones
• Zone party mode
• 9/16" taller, 1/8" deeper
• 2.2 lbs heavier
• "Z" series claimed improvements in component quality--2.2 lbs worth?
• 5 year vs. 2 year warranty
• $800 (MSRP: $2,700 for RX-Z7, $1,900 for RX-V3900)

I wish I knew what "Party Mode" really does… That and the longer warranty are all I really see here that matter for my usage. And "Party Mode" only matters if it does what I want it to do.
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post #53 of 1294 Old 10-12-2008, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Yes, but did you know the Z7 was coming out?

No. Wish I had. The Z11 was a logical follow-on to the Z9. I never expected a Z7. I like the Z11 (except for the video clipping, lousy remote, and no on-screen volume display), but the Z7 does eveything I wanted.

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post #54 of 1294 Old 10-12-2008, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick W View Post

I've ground all the available data. Here are the differences (Z7 over V3900) I find:

Fifth HDMI input, on front
Second USB, on rear
GUI manual setup controls over USB inputs
38 vs 22 surround programs on the 1900/3900 (this is cited on the Yamaha specs page and in Yamaha spec comparisons, but the proponderence of available information indicates it just isn't so)
Angle YPAO
Optical and coax digital audio, component video outputs on zone 2
Additional video processing options exposed in GUI
Four zones
Zone party mode
9/16" taller, 1/8" deeper
2.2 lbs heavier
"Z" series claimed improvements in component quality--2.2 lbs worth?
5 year vs. 2 year warranty
$800 (MSRP: $2,700 for RX-Z7, $1,900 for RX-V3900)

I wish I knew what "Party Mode" really does That and the longer warranty are all I really see here that matter for my usage. And "Party Mode" only matters if it does what I want it to do.


I would pay more for a really better internal components, more power in amplification area, but for those cosmetics features it doesn't make sense at all.
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post #55 of 1294 Old 10-12-2008, 01:21 PM
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Looks like I may be wrong. I think the 4th zone may support digital. The manual is a bit hard to follow when it comes to MZ setups.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #56 of 1294 Old 10-12-2008, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FastMHZ View Post

I would pay more for a really better internal components, more power in amplification area, but for those cosmetics features it doesn't make sense at all.

I use mine in three zone a lot as background noise around the house. With the 3800, there is a major difference in the propagation delay to Zone 1 out vs. Zone 2/3. Unless the volume is WAY DOWN, the areas of the house between Zone 1 and 2/3 are very disconcerting to even walk through with the same sounds on both sides separated by a fraction of a second.

When I had my old analog gear and two power amps and all of that, it was fine. If "Party Mode" addresses this, I'm thinking that might be worth it to me. Not that I think it's value for the money, just that over the long time I expect it to be in use, I'd get over it.
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post #57 of 1294 Old 10-12-2008, 09:13 PM
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Party mode disables surround and stereo and sends a Mono output to every speaker. Every speaker is getting the same input at the same level.

Not sure if this is what you are asking but this is what it does.

Upgrayedd. Which he spells thusly, with two D's, as he says, "for a double dose of this pimping".
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post #58 of 1294 Old 10-13-2008, 06:42 AM
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But is the output in phase at every speaker?

Conversely, does anybody know a way to achieve phase alignment of the zones in an MZ setup in models without "Party Mode" (i.e., RX-V3800 / 3900)?
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post #59 of 1294 Old 10-13-2008, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick W View Post

But is the output in phase at every speaker?

Conversely, does anybody know a way to achieve phase alignment of the zones in an MZ setup in models without "Party Mode" (i.e., RX-V3800 / 3900)?

What input source are you using and how are selecting that as the source for all zones?

The only way I can imagine the zones being out of sync is if the main zone is going through the DSPs (and incurring the associated processing delay of about 40ms), while the other zones are going through the analog path.

The 3800 service manual shows that the main front L/R signal, after DSPs and DACs, can also be sent to zones 2 and 3. That sounds like a party mode to me, and it would produce the same delay in all zones, but perhaps you're not allowed to select this mode on the 3800? (I never use zones so I really don't know how you set them up).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

What input source are you using and how are selecting that as the source for all zones?

The only way I can imagine the zones being out of sync is if the main zone is going through the DSPs (and incurring the associated processing delay of about 40ms), while the other zones are going through the analog path.

The 3800 service manual shows that the main front L/R signal, after DSPs and DACs, can also be sent to zones 2 and 3. That sounds like a party mode to me, and it would produce the same delay in all zones, but perhaps you're not allowed to select this mode on the 3800? (I never use zones so I really don't know how you set them up).

I've heard this delay on iPod, XM, audio from HDMI and others. (I haven't characterized it to the point of finding that some inputs are less disconcerting than others. I think some are. In a sense, it doesn't really matter. I want it to NEVER do this. I should take the time to characterize it across the inputs. But, again, at some level it doesn't matter.)

I'm selecting them from the remote--set the input implicitly for zone 1, then use the uppy-downy buttons until I see Zone 2 in the LCD then select the same input. Is there another way? (The 3800 does not have an explicit "Party Mode".)

Yes, I think the issue has something to do with different paths through the digitial stuff vs. analog stuff.
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