Yamaha RX-Z7 reciever. - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 1294 Old 10-13-2008, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick W View Post

I've heard this delay on iPod, XM, audio from HDMI and others. (I haven't characterized it to the point of finding that some inputs are less disconcerting than others.)
...
I'm selecting them from the remote--set the input implicitly for zone 1, then use the uppy-downy buttons until I see Zone 2 in the LCD then select the same input. Is there another way? (The 3800 does not have an explicit "Party Mode".)

What I know is all from the manuals (I only use the main zone), but I thought digital sources (optical, coax or HDMI) could not be played in zones 2 and 3?

Note that iPod, XM radio, USB are allowed in other zones because they can be converted to analog and then pass through the analog path that has almost no delay (but in the main zone they go through the DSPs and hence get delayed).

So if you are midway between the main zone and zone 2, the sound travel delay from the speakers to you will be the same, and the only delay is the processing delay for the main zone. If you select Pure Direct mode the processing delay should be eliminated for the main zone (at least for a source that doesn't need DSP decoding), and that might solve your problem (except I don't know if the other zones still work when Pure Direct is selected).
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post #62 of 1294 Old 10-13-2008, 09:27 PM
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You may be getting to the nub of this. For the digital devices--at least some of them and not others of them--I had to use an analog cable to connect them in parallel with the digital cable. It is possible--not sure how to test this--all or lots or some of the differential propagation delay starts right at the source.

In particular, I have these alternate paths that I explicitly put in:

CD changer has both optical and analog audio
DVD changer has both optical and analog audio
BD player has both HDMI and analog audio
DirecTV receiver has both HDMI and analog audio

That having been said, I think iPod is one of the devices that has this side effect and it has no parallel path I put in. (There may be both an analog path and a digital path in the dock interface--got me.) I need to go test this input-by-input.

Of course, if the RX-Z7 still needs the analog inputs to drive the zones, then I'd probably still be right here with this problem and out $800 or so.

Pure Direct kills the zones.

Can you explain why iPod, Net, USB, and XM are "digital" but can be converted and the others are digital and can't be converted? This has mystified me since the moment I discovered I had to put all these extra analog cables back in just to make the zones work.
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post #63 of 1294 Old 10-13-2008, 10:18 PM
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With this rattling around in my head, I re-read the Z7 manual one more time.

I note with interest:

"Only analog signals are sent to the second, third and fourth (analog ZONE 4 OUT) zones. Any source you want to listen to in these zones must be connected to the analog AUDIO IN jacks of this unit."

Of course, EVERYTING sent to second, third and fourth (analog ZONE 4 OUT) zones is analog BY DEFINITION. So they MUST mean something like analog signals at the analog inputs--and even then, it also sends Tuner, XM, iPod, SB, Net and so forth.

But wait. There's more.

"When this unit is in the party mode (page 129), audio signals input at the HDMI IN jacks or DIGITAL INPUT jacks are output at the ZONE OUT (ZONE 2/ZONE 3) and OPTICAL (ZONE 4) jacks."

So, not party mode == must use analog cables to get sound out for the zones and party mode == doesn't use analog cables to get sound out for the zones even if they are there. I have no idea what that means to my underlying question.
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post #64 of 1294 Old 10-13-2008, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick W View Post

Can you explain why iPod, Net, USB, and XM are "digital" but can be converted and the others are digital and can't be converted? This has mystified me since the moment I discovered I had to put all these extra analog cables back in just to make the zones work.

For those digital sources they included what's needed to convert them to analog and they behave like the analog connections from other sources. i.e. they can be used in the zones in analog form, but if you use them in the main zone they go through the DSPs (either in their original digital form, or after the analog version is redigitized). I don't think you can eliminate the DSP delay except in Pure Direct mode.

Digital inputs from CD, DVD etc. are either higher quality signals or need complex decoding, so they can only go through the DSP path. I guess it would have cost too much to duplicate this stuff for the zones. I guess it's also possible that a CD player's digital output is delayed w.r.t. its analog output, making your problem worse. But I think that extra delay should be pretty small.

Edit: after reading page 129 of the manual that you referenced, it seems there's a reasonable chance party mode will do what you want. Although for some reason it says you only get mono not stereo.
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post #65 of 1294 Old 10-17-2008, 01:45 PM
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Regarding the Anchor Bay video processing in the 3900, Z7 and Z11 AVRs, does anybody know which AB chips are used in respective model? Could not find the info on Yamaha's page, maybe I missed it.

Do the new 3900 and Z7 perhaps use the ABT-2010 (same as in DVDO Edge and Oppo983) and the Z11 some older chip?

If they use the ABT-2010 then that makes this an interesting alternative for video processing to the Reon VX and Realtas used e.g. in some Onkyos and Denons. Hopefully all features of the ABT-2010 are also exposed and usable.

Pity that the 5th HDMI is on the front, I would really like to see more AVR:s with 5 or more HDMI inputs on the back side, choices for that are still kind of limited and also still fairly expensive. I really soon need more than the 4 HDMI inputs I have on my current AVR, preferably 6 HDMI inputs on the backside.

- Rob
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post #66 of 1294 Old 10-17-2008, 02:01 PM
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Rob, I (and I believe others) speculated that the 3900/Z7 used the 2010. Someone else claims Yamaha has now confirmed this. See the 1900/3900 thread for more info on this.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #67 of 1294 Old 10-17-2008, 02:13 PM
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Thanks Michael,

Found the info on the sister thread, seems fairly believable that the 3900/Z7 both have the ABT-2010, the link to Japanese site and eMail reference from Yamaha Canada and their discussion with Japan adds some credibility to this speculation.

So apparently the 3900 exposes fewer of the ABT-2010 video tweaking capabilities and input control than Z7, well I guess they have to make some differences between the models to make up for the price difference, pity since most of that difference is SW implementation.

Nice to see that the ABT-2010 is getting into new AVR’s, it’s a very capable little chip. A bit strange that Yamaha does not advertise more clearly on the spec pages what actual chip is used. Having the ABT-2010 should be a good selling point. IMHO Yamaha can now finally compete in video processing also with the latest Reon VX and Realta that are so popular in Onkyo and Denon AVRs.

- Rob
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post #68 of 1294 Old 10-17-2008, 02:19 PM
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We will find out, Rob. When my 3900 finally arrives, I will be specifically testing to see whether it can improve the PS3 video from the HQV DVD. That will require it to re-deinterlace the 480p coming from the PS3 (480i over HDMI is not an option the PS3 supports) and improve the jaggies and improve the cadence detection and such. Should be interesting to see if PReP really works

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #69 of 1294 Old 10-19-2008, 10:26 AM
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A quick on screen display of input selection and especially volume setting through every conceivable video out, including upscaled to 1080p HDMI, is the number one thing I want in a new receiver. Finding out this kind of information from product specs/manuals/reviews is like pulling teeth. I look forward to the first user reports to confirm what it will or will not do in this regard. This is my make or break buying decision since my receiver will be buried in a closet and not visually accessible.

Another subtle difference between the Z7 and the RXV-3900 is that the speaker terminals, S-video jacks, coaxial digital RCA jacks, and the analog RCA jacks are all gold plated, I believe. Yes, I know that doesn't "sound better" but in theory it does mean they are less likely to corrode and oxidize over the years.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #70 of 1294 Old 10-19-2008, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

A quick on screen display of input selection and especially volume setting through every conceivable video out, including upscaled to 1080p HDMI, is the number one thing I want in a new receiver. Finding out this kind of information from product specs/manuals/reviews is like pulling teeth. I look forward to the first user reports to confirm what it will or will not do in this regard. This is my make or break buying decision since my receiver will be buried in a closet and not visually accessible.

Yes, the manual is not clear exactly what info is shown overlaid on the video (via so-called "short messages"), and what requires the full GUI that completely replaces the video.

But it is clear that you won't get overlaid short messages when the input signal is component at 720p/1080i/1080p resolution. (Note I said input, it doesn't matter what the output to the display is).

These days there are fewer and fewer HD sources that use component instead of HDMI, but there are some and I guess they should be avoided with this receiver.
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post #71 of 1294 Old 10-19-2008, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

But it is clear that you won't get overlaid short messages when the input signal is component at 720p/1080i/1080p resolution. (Note I said input, it doesn't matter what the output to the display is).

It is very cryptic in the manual, top of page 106:

"Note:

The short message display (except some status messages) does not appear when the component video signals with 720p, 1080i or 1080p resolutions are input."


[emphasis mine]

So this clearly implies that the unit is capable of video display overlay when it feels like it! What the hec do they mean by "some"?

Also the minimum time for the "short message" is 10 seconds. Yikes that's a long time when it comes to volume displays. Try watching TV, change the volume, and then imagine an on screen indicator and count to ten. How about a 2 second option Yamaha? Afraid us dumb Americans might take 10 seconds to read what the volume setting is?

I don't trust the manual anyhow. We need a hands on evaluation to understand what "some status messages" really means. At least we've evolved from the Z11 which had no "short messages" for HDMI at all, to the best of my knowledge.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #72 of 1294 Old 10-19-2008, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

It is very cryptic in the manual, top of page 106:

"Note:

The short message display (except some status messages) does not appear when the component video signals with 720p, 1080i or 1080p resolutions are input."


So this clearly implies that the unit is capable of video display overlay when it feels like it! What the hec do they mean by "some"?

Also the minimum time for the "short message" is 10 seconds. Yikes that's a long time when it comes to volume displays.

Ah, I missed that cyptic note. So we'll just have to wait and see what it really does.

But you can turn off short messages (bottom of page 105). The minimum 10 seconds is for the full screen GUI, and it's crazy there isn't an option to disable that too.
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post #73 of 1294 Old 11-02-2008, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggunnell View Post

. . .Is the LFE track truncated above the sub xo? (Does anyone make a test DVD that has test tones encoded on the LFE track?) . . .

I did test the Z11 for LFE track truncation. With all speakers 'small', all xo's 80Hz, and 'bass out' = sub only, the LFE pink noise track on Pharoah Audio's test DVD
https://www.pharoahaudio.com/seller/...C-p-16156.html
was not truncated at 80Hz.
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post #74 of 1294 Old 11-04-2008, 07:32 AM
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Any more news to when it's out?
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post #75 of 1294 Old 11-04-2008, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggunnell View Post

I did test the Z11 for LFE track truncation. With all speakers 'small', all xo's 80Hz, and 'bass out' = sub only, the LFE pink noise track on Pharoah Audio's test DVD
https://www.pharoahaudio.com/seller/...C-p-16156.html
was not truncated at 80Hz.

Can you also set front crossovers to, say, 60Hz, and surrounds to, say, 120Hz, and see if bass from the surrounds is lost between 60 and 120?

This is what the audioholics Z11 review claimed, and if we had clear instructions on how to perform the test then maybe someone with a 3900 or Z7 could check what's happening on those models.
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post #76 of 1294 Old 11-04-2008, 01:11 PM
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I have no reason to doubt Gene's results vis a vis the Z11 -- it remains to be seen if Yamaha fixed this in the 3900 and Z7, e.g. set the low pass to the sub at the highest speaker group crossover frequency selected rather than whatever the front main speakers were set at.

Edit: Gene has said he's going to test a Z7. Folks wanting to do a test themselves will need either a source of sine wave tones encoded into the surround channels of a 5.1 calibration DVD and a handheld meter, or since all the surround channel calibration DVDs I know of use a broadband (pink) noise instead of discrete tones, instead of a handheld meter they'll need an RTA (SMS-1, TueRTA or REW + mic).

Just a reminder -- I know money is tight, but realize you really need surrounds that can be crossed no higher than 80Hz. Sending anything higher than that to a sub is going to localize the sub and denegrate the surround. I know . . . but still . . . there it is.
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post #77 of 1294 Old 11-05-2008, 09:15 AM
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No reviews yet ?

Waiting to know if it is worth to buy.

[]s
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post #78 of 1294 Old 11-05-2008, 09:28 AM
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Not released yet -- later this month last I heard.
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post #79 of 1294 Old 11-14-2008, 07:19 AM
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post #80 of 1294 Old 11-19-2008, 06:38 AM
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Mine should show up sometime today I hope.
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Mine should show up sometime today I hope.

tap, tap, tap
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post #82 of 1294 Old 11-20-2008, 11:52 AM
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RX-Z7 came in last night.











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post #83 of 1294 Old 11-20-2008, 12:57 PM
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It looks taller than my 3900, but reading the specs, it's maybe 1/2" taller. I see where they moved the power switches. I have to suspect there are more than minor differences inside the case.

They mentioned something about a bigger power supply in a video I saw.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #84 of 1294 Old 11-20-2008, 01:15 PM
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is the Z7 worthy of the Z branding in people's opinions ?

where are the high end DACs etc ?

still seems to me like a upgraded 3900, like the 4308 is to the 3808 ?
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post #85 of 1294 Old 11-20-2008, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markabuckley View Post

is the Z7 worthy of the Z branding in people's opinions ?

where are the high end DACs etc ?

still seems to me like a upgraded 3900, like the 4308 is to the 3808 ?

Yes, I think it should be called the RX-V4900 (still wish I had one though!).
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post #86 of 1294 Old 11-20-2008, 03:05 PM
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I hope to have mine next week sometime, but in the meantime I had a play last night and did a direct comparison between the 3800 and 3900. Despite not expecting any sonic differences, and having the same PSU, the 3900 straight out of the box sounds much more "natural" and smoother to listen to. One can only assume the Z7 is better again.

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post #87 of 1294 Old 11-20-2008, 03:06 PM
 
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She be perdy, Speed.

I take it that this is the "Official" RX-Z7 forum?

Here is a quick review of the DSP-Z7 from the UK.
(As I understand it, the DSP-Z7 is the RX-Z7 for the rest of the world.)

http://www.avforums.com/forums/integ...ml#post8156467

In the first 3 minutes of this video the Yamaha Rep gives a brief explanation of the differences between the RX-V3900 and the RX-Z7:
Don't blink http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lit335-tdmQ
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post #88 of 1294 Old 11-20-2008, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkH View Post

I hope to have mine next week sometime, but in the meantime I had a play last night and did a direct comparison between the 3800 and 3900. Despite not expecting any sonic differences, and having the same PSU, the 3900 straight out of the box sounds much more "natural" and smoother to listen to. One can only assume the Z7 is better again.

Got to say I'm a little skeptical of any significant sound difference between the 3800 and 3900. How direct was the comparison (exact same setup, same speakers, same everything)? And by same setup I don't mean auto setup was run on both, I mean the exact same EQ settings on both.
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post #89 of 1294 Old 11-20-2008, 06:33 PM
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Speed08, you lucky dude, that looks sexy! I can't wait for you to show us what the on screen volume change indicator looks like. Does it work through a component connection out to the TV too or just HDMI out?

Thanks guy.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #90 of 1294 Old 11-20-2008, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Got to say I'm a little skeptical of any significant sound difference between the 3800 and 3900. How direct was the comparison (exact same setup, same speakers, same everything)? And by same setup I don't mean auto setup was run on both, I mean the exact same EQ settings on both.

As was I. Ive owned a 2500, 2600, 2700 and 3800 and can honestly say theres NO difference in sonic ability between a 2700 and 3800. However (using the exact same setup instore here - no EQ settings applied to either) I have to say the 3900 sound a little more "effortless" in its capability over the 3800. Its not night and day, and certainly not enough for 3800 to upgrade to, but to my ears there was a difference. YMMV.
However Im hoping the Z7 is a more dramatic step up.

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