Yamaha RX-Z7 reciever. - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 1294 Old 11-20-2008, 08:39 PM
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Likely due to the fact that the RXV3900 and Z-7 reclock HDMI signals in order to reduce jitter, an issue with previous generation AVR's. Was your comparison using HDMI as the primary connection?
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post #92 of 1294 Old 11-20-2008, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2+2=5 View Post

Likely due to the fact that the RXV3900 and Z-7 reclock HDMI signals in order to reduce jitter, an issue with previous generation AVR's. Was your comparison using HDMI as the primary connection?

Assuming youre referring to me and the comparisons, yes the connection was HDMI using the DTS BR demo disc from a Yamaha BDS2900 player.

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post #93 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by MarkH View Post

As was I. Ive owned a 2500, 2600, 2700 and 3800 and can honestly say theres NO difference in sonic ability between a 2700 and 3800. However (using the exact same setup instore here - no EQ settings applied to either) I have to say the 3900 sound a little more "effortless" in its capability over the 3800. Its not night and day, and certainly not enough for 3800 to upgrade to, but to my ears there was a difference. YMMV.
However Im hoping the Z7 is a more dramatic step up.

OK, "a little more" sounds more likely than "much more".

The Z7 is supposed to use some different components, but I don't have the service manual yet. I do know that the 3900 has the same DSD1791 DACs used in the 1800/3800, while the Z11 DACs are DSD1796 (better, but how noticable?). To deserve the Z7 name it really ought to use the same DACs as the Z11.
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post #94 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

To deserve the Z7 name it really ought to use the same DACs as the Z11.

But often, if not usually, year 2008 DACs that cost $50 (or whatever electronics you choose), outperform year 2006 DACs that cost $150.

My dad taught me a rule of thumb that I have yet to find an exception to:
"When comparing two pieces of electronic gear, generally the newer one has better performance, even though it is now built cheaply and out of plastic."

People who say "They don't build them like they used to" may be correct regarding ruggedness and durability but in terms of measured performance in things like noise, distortion, etc the newer one is almost always better.

What design team would ever work under the principal "OK, we've achieve a distortion figure of only .01 in the past, let's now see if for the new series we can't increase that level to .1%."

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #95 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

But often, if not usually, year 2008 DACs that cost $50 (or whatever electronics you choose), outperform year 2006 DACs that cost $150.

In general I agree, but analog stuff isn't necessarily improving the same as digital (hard to find electrical engineers who even know analog these days).

In this case the price difference between the DSD1791 and 1796 is less than $1 (x5 as 5 of them are needed). So I can't believe they sound very different. And it's a pretty safe bet the Z7 will use one of those two DACs.
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post #96 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 09:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

To deserve the Z7 name it really ought to use the same DACs as the Z11.

Or at least in the "Z" family:

V3900 DACs - DSD1791
Dynamic Range: 113 dB
THD+N: 0.001%

Z7 DACs - ??? WANTED - Link to Z7 Service Manual!

Z9 DACs - PCM1792
Dynamic Range: 127 dB
THD+N: 0.0004%

Z11 DACs - DSD1796
Dynamic Range: 123 dB
THD+N: 0.0005%
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post #97 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 09:51 AM
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Guys I have a request if you will.

I can appreciate we all want the best possible DAC's but one of the things I have found to have a dramatic effect in the sound characteristics we experience is the OPAMP's used. For those that have a chance to look at the service manuals, would you mind checking to see if there are any difference in the OPAMPS used between the 3900, Z7 and Z11? I feel the OPAMP's are often overlooked in favor of the specs on a DAC.

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide regarding this OPAMPS.

Regards,

David
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post #98 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 10:37 AM
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I agree - my ARcam AVR350 - used a Wolfson WM8770 - multi-codec-DAC - good - but not exactly high end

but then used decent OP2134 op-amps

overall result sounded extremely good indeed

unfort. DACs sell amps ....
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post #99 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Clark View Post

Or at least in the "Z" family:

All the new Yamahas support DSD over HDMI sent directly to the DACs in Pure Direct mode, so I don't think they'll go back to a PCM only DAC.

The Z7 service manual should be findable soon at www.yamaha-service.de (not as a direct link, but Google should find it). Maybe within a few weeks.
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post #100 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Clark View Post

Or at least in the "Z" family:

V3900 DACs - DSD1791
Dynamic Range: 113 dB
THD+N: 0.001%

Z7 DACs - ??? WANTED - Link to Z7 Service Manual!

Z9 DACs - PCM1792
Dynamic Range: 127 dB
THD+N: 0.0004%

Z11 DACs - DSD1796
Dynamic Range: 123 dB
THD+N: 0.0005%

A) Just like Yamaha is claiming better performance in Z series over non-Z, TI would be expected to claim better numbers on their more expensive DACs. It is only a marketing claim, not a real world independent laboratory measurement using instrumentation.

B) Although test instruments can detect the difference between .002 and .001 % THD+N, a human can't, so a DAC that is .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% is no better than one that has .0009 % THD+N to a human. [all my numbers given are generalizations for example only]

Thanks for digging up the info though.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #101 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdwest View Post

I can appreciate we all want the best possible DAC's but one of the things I have found to have a dramatic effect in the sound characteristics we experience is the OPAMP's used. For those that have a chance to look at the service manuals, would you mind checking to see if there are any difference in the OPAMPS used between the 3900, Z7 and Z11?

Ugh, I don't usually look at the analog sections of the schematics, but if I'm reading them correctly:-
  • On the 3900 each DAC feeds an NE5532 op-amp.
  • The Z11 uses a more elaborate circuit with 3 op-amps on each channel (two NJM5532 and one LM4562).
Don't know about the Z7 yet.
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post #102 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 12:39 PM
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LM4562 =

NE5523 - usual dross

so frustrating they make cut backs in these areas - would cost little to improve the parts choice
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post #103 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 12:51 PM
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Which op amps are we talking about? Input buffer op amps? Something used early on in the power stage? Just curious.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #104 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Which op amps are we talking about? Input buffer op amps? Something used early on in the power stage? Just curious.

I was talking about the ones immediately after the DACs at the output (hope those are the relevant ones).
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post #105 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 01:09 PM
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Thanks, I will take a look

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #106 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 03:24 PM
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I had a Yamaha RX-Z1 and i liked the sound of it.

Would RX-Z7 better than Z1 and Z9, in internal power amplification and DACs ?
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post #107 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markabuckley View Post

LM4562 =

NE5523 - usual dross

so frustrating they make cut backs in these areas - would cost little to improve the parts choice

I am a fan of the LM4562's. Wonderful sounding.

Curious as to the reason for 3 OPAMP's and how they are being used.
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post #108 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by FastMHZ View Post

I had a Yamaha RX-Z1 and i liked the sound of it.

Would RX-Z7 better than Z1 and Z9, in internal power amplification and DACs ?

Maybe, maybe not. If you read the thread completely, you will notice that many of us feel that the Z7 may be closer to the RX-V3900 than the Z-11.

There's a video with Audioholics (I think,) and Yamaha where they mention that the Z7 has more power in spite of the same 140x7 rating. This should not be surprising - all they needed to do was increase the power supply capacity.

I would guess the service manual may answer questions on which components are being used, and you would have to wait for it to become available.

I personally think people's interest in DACs and such may be a bit off the mark. The overall sound is dictated by rather a lot of components. Odds are though, that the Yamaha measures very well in linearity and distortion. Whether it has that special Jen ne se quois people look for, who can say - I think as usual, that requires someone to buy and evaluate it themselves.

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post #109 of 1294 Old 11-21-2008, 07:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Ugh, I don't usually look at the analog sections of the schematics, but if I'm reading them correctly:-

On the 3900 each DAC feeds an NE5532 op-amp.

Indeed, right after the V3900's 1791 DACs's are (IC575-577)
NE5532 (Datasheet)

No one will get an argument from me about the importance of the op amps.

Since there are no comprehensive electrical measurements available that can be used to objectively compare products, consumers are left with analyzing the individual components (dac's, op amps) and applying their own personal subjective analysis.

What's wrong with that?

Now, can someone explain to me what are the magic numbers to look for in the Z11's LM4562 datasheet?
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post #110 of 1294 Old 11-22-2008, 06:53 AM
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HDMI out with Volume.





Component Video out with Volume.
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post #111 of 1294 Old 11-22-2008, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Clark View Post

Since there are no comprehensive electrical measurements available that can be used to objectively compare products, consumers are left with analyzing the individual components (dac's, op amps) and applying their own personal subjective analysis.

What's wrong with that?

Answer: Observer bias.

Only carefully level matched (less than .1 dB difference as measured by instrumentation) blind comparisons of the actual gear are valid. Since absolutely no one in any of the threads in AVS mention doing that, that I've read, I immediately dismiss all comments about sound quality to be most likely imaginary and based on observer bias.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can hear it now: "Oh no, not me M. Zillch, I'm perfectly objective and unlike all the other humans tested in scientifically controlled settings which show that subtle <1dB sound level differences are usually perceived as quality differences, not level, I'm not susceptible to that and can hear passed that so I don't need to level match with instrumentation when I do sound comparisons." Oh brother; you're superhuman, sure.

I assume I am all alone in my convictions in such matters. On the remote chance there is anyone else here reading this who agrees with me please speak up.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Speed08, thanks for the volume pics. Lack of component out volme OSD is a bummer for me.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #112 of 1294 Old 11-22-2008, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speed08 View Post

HDMI out with Volume.
...
Component Video out with Volume.
...

Why oh why couldn't they use the same two-line message format on the front panel that they use for the on-screen short messages? That way the volume would actually be visible from a decent distance. They completely wasted the top line of the front panel by displaying "MAIN VOLUME" instead of "Volume -54.0dB".

Many people complained when that front panel volume bar was introduced and they still haven't deigned to change it.
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post #113 of 1294 Old 11-22-2008, 11:27 AM
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Also why does the OSD volume have that large black rectangle around it blanking much of the screen.? [I guess over a white screen that would have some value, but still.]

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #114 of 1294 Old 11-22-2008, 05:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Answer: Observer bias.
[snip...]
I assume I am all alone in my convictions in such matters. On the remote chance there is anyone else here reading this who agrees with me please speak up.

I'll raise my hand in support of my own statement. As you have granted support to it. I agree! I take personally subjective opinion with a grain of salt. But it is all a hell of a lot of fun, this "hobby" is!

Now lets talk about what really matters - Vinyl
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post #115 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 11:52 AM
 
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From the outset you can tell the difference on the Z7 - using the same speaker set-up as the one used last week the sound was noticeably "fuller" than the 3900.

Quote from avforums.com post in UK
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post #116 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 02:51 PM
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The sound being fuller might be true. Fuller of sh*t, that is. Just kidding.

I find early period woodwinds sound smoother and less strident especially in the upper, lower midrange. And my comparison wasn't spaced a week apart, mind you, it was from yesterday. Good thing us humans have perfect recall and "photographic memory" when it comes to subtle differences in perceived sound/auditory memory. Damn that beefier power supply sounds sweet! I can't wait to see how much better it will sound when I re-solder it replacing the solder Yamaha used with my special high purity/low oxygen silver solder and I upgrade the power cord to a Monster power cord. Now we're talking.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #117 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

The sound being fuller might be true. Fuller of sh*t, that is. Just kidding.

I find early period woodwinds sound smoother and less strident especially in the upper, lower midrange. And my comparison wasn't spaced a week apart, mind you, it was from yesterday. Good thing us humans have perfect recall and "photographic memory" when it comes to subtle differences in perceived sound/auditory memory. Damn that beefier power supply sounds sweet! I can't wait to see how much better it will sound when I re-solder it replacing the solder Yamaha used with my special high purity/low oxygen silver solder and I upgrade the power cord to a Monster power cord. Now we're talking.

Ok now Im confused as this thread becomes in danger of veering off-topic. Are we saying that people making claims a 3900/Z7 sounds "better" than a 3800 is a load of crap, are are we saying that comparing products at an op-amp level is a load of crap?
I would argue, despite yet to hear one, that the Z7 will be closer to the Z11 than a 3900. I believe this as despite being an amazing piece of work, I definately dont think the Z11 is worth the flagship price if you base it primarily on its sound quality. A Rotel or NAD combo (cheaper) both blow them out of the water (and I have done the comparison). The 3900 is a third of the retail price of a Z7 here in Australia, in comparison it is NOT 30% the quality of a Z11.
And I stand by my statement that the 3900 sounded a little better than the 3800. This having owned a 3800 for a year, and doing a side by side comparison, using identical settings. I also stand by my comment that it is certainly not worth the upgrade for those of us previously owning the 3800. My main reason for going for the Z7? As I work in the industry the changeover cost will be small for me to upgrade.

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post #118 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 04:55 PM
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I think the main reason to get the Z7 over the 3900 would be more video adjustability. I will be curious to hear about that aspect if Z9 owners would be kind enough to relay their experience.

I think the digital output from zone 4 could be useful, but I can't quite figure out how. Because you would have to send it to an amp with a digital input, and they are rare or non existant.

I wonder when Yamaha will start providing zones with audio no matter what the connection?

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #119 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 06:13 PM
 
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Seriously, my main interest is audio. Particularly for playback of Super Audio CD's in the 5.1 Multi-Channel surround format and SA-Cd pure DSD playback. The Z7 would secondarilly provide duty for HD video and all the latest associated HT surround sound codexs. Basically, do it all and do it all very well. Can Rotel or NAD do all that in the same price range in a single cabinette? It never crossed my mind to consider it.
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post #120 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 06:27 PM
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I would not know. The Yamaha will do DSD direct, which seems like a nice feature. Some people have given their views on it, and they seemed to think it was quite good.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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