Yamaha RX-Z7 reciever. - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 06:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

The Yamaha will do DSD direct, which seems like a nice feature.

To some in the SA-Cd community, including me, DSD "pure" direct is the holy grail. An ability which is increasingly becoming somewhat rare. This is a big fat tic on my list in favor for the Z7.
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post #122 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I think the digital output from zone 4 could be useful, but I can't quite figure out how. Because you would have to send it to an amp with a digital input, and they are rare or non existant.

True, but pretty much all A/V receivers have digital inputs; one could use one of those on the receiving end and have a tuner, other inputs for local sources, and seperate tone/balance/volume controls to boot. Take an RXV363 for example.

"But receiver's have inferior sound to amps", you cry? Then why are you here in this receiver thread?

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #123 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkH View Post

Ok now Im confused as this thread becomes in danger of veering off-topic. Are we saying that people making claims a 3900/Z7 sounds "better" than a 3800 is a load of crap, are are we saying that comparing products at an op-amp level is a load of crap?

In my opinion comparing two pieces of sound gear, by ear:

- a week or even a day apart
- or without setting the volume level output to be the same using instrumentation
- or in a sighted (non-blind) comparison

is a load of crap.

The only reliable way to remove human bias from the equation [example: "I know more expensive components must sound better because they have beefier power supplies. Everyone knows that!"] is to make the comparison at least blind or ideally double blind. The test subject must not be allowed to know which device s/he is listening to.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #124 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

In my opinion comparing two pieces of sound gear, by ear:

- a week or even a day apart
- or without setting the volume level output to be the same using instrumentation
- or in a sighted (non-blind) comparison

is a load of crap.

The only reliable way to remove human bias from the equation [example: "I know more expensive components must sound better because they have beefier power supplies. Everyone knows that!"] is to make the comparison at least blind or ideally double blind. The test subject must not be allowed to know which device s/he is listening to.


I actually agree with what you are saying, but my experience was I felt the sound was smoother on the 3900, less strained perhaps. This was using the basic settings on the amp, set up EXACTLY the same using the same speakers and sub. I didnt go in looking for differences (unlike the old test I did with a 2700 v 3800, and did find NO difference), but was pleasantly surprised. YMMV.

Anyway, it seems the 3900 is taking over this thread, which shouldnt happen! The only thing I will say on the matter is that my Z7 wont be with me until at least Dec 12th, and I have a current buyer for my 3800 who has already waited a couple of weeks at this point. Im afraid more delay might make him go cold, so Im tossing up whether to just stick with the 3900 whic I can get immediately. The price difference for me is is very small, hence why Im waiting.
Decisions decisions!

MY THEATRE ROOM, LIVING ROOM and BEDROOM SYSTEMS THREAD

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1105927
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post #125 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post

I will be getting my review sample in October to test out.

In the meantime, we did a first look article:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/r...s/yamaha-rx-z7

If there are any particular tests people would like to see me run, simply PM me or comment here and I will check back regularly. thanks.

Hello all and Gene thanks for the kind offer to test the Z7 if we had any requests. I read the HDMI Cable tests from your site and was fascinated by the results as the hype is all over the place.

Okay, Here is my situation or summary of equipment.

- Denon 3803 that I use for Audio only for the last two years given the HDMI Launch. Used in 5.1 today and tomorrow.
- DVDO VP20 (Anchor Bay) purchased to replace video processing by Denon and upconvert my old SD CRT plus handle the HDMI for cheapo Std DVD and Satellite since Denon did not
- Huges HD HR20-700 Satellite plus DVR
- Sony Cheapo Std DVD with upconversion
- NHT MA-1A 80W amp for Sub - External mounts in Cabinett with other AV. Probably 10 years old but works perfect!
- NHT SW2P 10" Cone for Sub
- Samsung 56 DLP thin 1080p with HDMI v 1.2
- Monster HTS 3600 power cleaner
- B&W N804 L/R with Cambridge in other areas (will upgrade the Cambridge later)

Interest:

I would like to either upgrade the amp to a newer AVR and am shortlisted to the NAD T785, Integra 9.9, or Yamaha Z7 with the Denon 5308/4308 trailing due to cost and the Marantz due to functionality.

I am also ready to go with the Blu-Ray now that the format wars are over and the unit prices are falling!

I have been reading all these forums with untold fascination and geez louize the choices can be overwhelming!

My Interest in the Integra and the Yamaha is that I can map two of the amps from the surround to my L/R which is desirable as I can bi-amp my B&W's that could use a little more love. So the Bi-amp optimize a 7.1 to other uses was big on my list.

1) COULD YOU TEST THIS AND REPORT?

I am also interested that Yamaha is in the minority of using a Parametric approach to optimizing all the speakers with proprietary technology versus everyone else using Audyssey graphical EQ!

2) CAN YOU COMPARE THE TWO? What is the real difference between the two approaches and it seems that many opinions on the Audyssey are out there as good and otherwise!

Third request is with the options on OEM for the Video Scaling where the big 3 seem to be: Faroudja, Silicon Optix Realta, and Anchor Bay.

3) How do they compare? What functions are included in the OEM version versus native boxes like the VP50 ( I know your eyes might be rolling as there is so much functionality in the DVDO sets but I am looking to learn and asking is free)

4) The AVR Hype is overwhelming! Toroidal Transformer versus laminated (I understand the Toroidal benefits but not how much more expensive they are to Laminate), multiple power supplys to support avr switching, heat sinks size in AVR's limited due to space and because of space AVR's limited to less than 150 Watt Amps. Boutique separates behind mass market AVR's. Okay please know I understand that in your role you need to keep solid bridges with all manufacturers but trying to ferret out all the angles is a tough match for us in the end-consumer trenches.

Can you Summarize the feature functions in a way that we can decipher what is really important for say a purchase that needs to have a 5 year run?

5) Lots of folks with interest in the DACs Burr Brown. I saw a post that had the 1791 DAC costing roughly $3 bucks and the 1796 at $12 bucks. Why would these AVR manufacturers be splitting hairs on a price delta that is this nominal? What is the performance difference and why the fuss anyway?


I may have mis-interpreted what I read and will humbly bow to anyone that loves to take flesh bites out of erroneous quoting but I sensed that the Yamaha only did 1080P at 24FS? Does it support faster rates?

I think the other guys and dolls had nice ideas but these are mine so I will thank you in advance!!!!

I sent an email to Aaron at Anchor Bay as I was thinking of upgrading to the VP50 pro and using separates but cannot seem to assemble a system that would come even close to what you could purchase with the all in one's.

thank ya sir!

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post #126 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Clark View Post

To some in the SA-Cd community, including me, DSD "pure" direct is the holy grail. An ability which is increasingly becoming somewhat rare. This is a big fat tic on my list in favor for the Z7.

I had not noticed this going out of favor but I use pure direct on my old Denon 3803 when listening to any music. Mainly because the B&W N804's are so much better than the other three speakers but also the difference is so incredibly audible!

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post #127 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post


"But receiver's have inferior sound to amps", you cry? Then why are you here in this receiver thread?

When I ever insisted amps were superior to receivers? I have always said that I feel categorical statements of that sort are meaningless.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #128 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

When I ever insisted amps were superior to receivers? I have always said that I feel categorical statements of that sort are meaningless.

Good, then I'm sure you'll agree using a receiver instead of an amp with digital inputs (not that I know of any on the market at the moment) would be an approriate way to use the digital zone outs.

I guess I should have written "one might cry?" instead of "you cry?". Sorry.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #129 of 1294 Old 11-23-2008, 09:28 PM
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I thought about that solution, actually, for zone 4. Just get a budget receiver with a digital input.

The whole zone system seems pretty ad hoc these days on Yamaha. I have looked at their schematics, and I could guess they simply don't want to redesign their circuits to allow for more usability.

They may be waiting for either more market demand for zones (few use them I would guess,) or are waiting for their competition to do implement more usable zones.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #130 of 1294 Old 11-24-2008, 12:54 PM
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Quote:


Hello all and Gene thanks for the kind offer to test the Z7 if we had any requests. I read the HDMI Cable tests from your site and was fascinated by the results as the hype is all over the place.

I am getting my review sample at the end of this week. If anyone has specific requests for me to check out, please post them in our official review thread. I will be supporting this product in a similar fashion to how I do with the Denon AVP-A1HDCI. thanks.

Best Regards;

Gene DellaSala (GDS)
President, Audioholics.com
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post #131 of 1294 Old 11-24-2008, 05:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

In my opinion comparing two pieces of sound gear, by ear:

- a week or even a day apart
- or without setting the volume level output to be the same using instrumentation
- or in a sighted (non-blind) comparison

is a load of crap.

The only reliable way to remove human bias from the equation [example: "I know more expensive components must sound better because they have beefier power supplies. Everyone knows that!"] is to make the comparison at least blind or ideally double blind. The test subject must not be allowed to know which device s/he is listening to.

When you stumble across any AV Receiver reviews which satisfy your above listed criteria please let me know
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post #132 of 1294 Old 11-24-2008, 06:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sticknstones View Post

I had not noticed this going out of favor but I use pure direct on my old Denon 3803 when listening to any music.

It isn't out of favor. It just seems that it isn't the priority of manufacturers. It has been dropped from a few receivers lately.

Playback of SA-Cd's recorded in Direct Stream Digital (DSD), over HDMI to a AV receiver set in Pure Direct mode allows playback of the original program material in the least adulterated form.

DSD via HDMI to a Z7 in Pure Direct mode should bypass any signal processing by the AV receiver (avoiding PCM decimation) and send the DSD signal directly to the Z7 DAC's for output to your speakers - "Pure Direct".

The caveat is that not all AV receivers that have Pure Direct mode actually bypass the Processor/Decoder. In which case the Processor/Decoder converts the DSD signal into PCM, before sending it on to the DAC's, which decimates the DSD signal. The AV Receiver manual may or may not give you a clue as to what it is doing in Pure Direct mode.

Of course, you must have a Super Audio CD capable player to playback SA-Cd's recorded in DSD.
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post #133 of 1294 Old 11-24-2008, 07:55 PM
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I once had a Yamaha integrated amp that had tone bypass, source direct, CD direct, processor direct, DSP bypass, and Pure direct, not to mention you could de-couple the power amp from the pre amp by removing the metal horseshoes on the back and send signals straight to the power amp.

You can never have too many "directs".
"My unit is better than yours because I have more directs."

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #134 of 1294 Old 11-25-2008, 05:49 PM
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I just received my RX-Z7 from Amazon. One nice touch is that they double boxed the shipment. (My previous electronics order from Amazon, the Panasonic DMP-BD55 was also double boxed.) Onto buying an amp for a little extra zing on the front channels . . . .
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post #135 of 1294 Old 11-25-2008, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post

I am getting my review sample at the end of this week. If anyone has specific requests for me to check out, please post them in our official review thread.

I am not register in your forum, therefore ask here about HDMI repeater implementation in Z7. I saw big issue in all previous Yamaha models from my RX-V2700 till RX-V3800.
https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=#post14058344
http://forum.ixbt.com/topic.cgi?id=62:12246:3270#3270

Simple PC program moninfo shows it. http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm
Ideal receiver should make right combined EDID from TV EDID and add own audio part. But previous Yamaha AVRs change TV EDID video part
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post #136 of 1294 Old 11-26-2008, 01:32 PM
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The manual claims that if you are using an external amplifier for the main zone, that you can assign these amps to Z2 or Z3 by selecting preamp mode in the advanced setup.

However, there is nowhere in set up to remap the main zone amps. Has anyone else attempted this setup?

I've read on the net that preamp mode shuts down the main zone amps to keep the unit cooler and use less power. This is certainly a contradiction.

In prior models, hooking up an external amp, would disable the corresponding speaker output.
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post #137 of 1294 Old 11-26-2008, 01:57 PM
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On my RX-V2700, amps were live unless you muted them. Unfortunately, mute was done before the pre out stage

I have not tested this on the RX-V3900, but I would bet money it works the same way, and the Z7 may as well.

I can tell you this though. On my RX-V3900, power consumption drops by simply disconnecting speakers. The more speakers disconnected, the more power consumption drops. I used a Kill a Watt meter to confirm this. This seems to indicate the power transistors are drawing minimal power when speakers are not connected even if the channel is being driven.

I assume the Z7 will behave the same way.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #138 of 1294 Old 11-26-2008, 05:44 PM
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I was under the impression that almost all modern amps (and amplifier sections) draw only minimal power when they have no load. (I won't hook up my Z7 until after Thanksgiving, so I won't be able to report on experiments until then.)
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post #139 of 1294 Old 11-28-2008, 07:31 PM
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If you own an Oppo 983H and are considering the Z7, someone in the 3900 thread just reported no joy getting it to talk to the 3900 via HDMI at 1080p.
The 983 will not work with the Z11 at any HDMI resolution. Hopefully someone at Yamaha, Oppo, or Anchor Bay will get this resolved soon.
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post #140 of 1294 Old 12-01-2008, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post

I am getting my review sample at the end of this week. If anyone has specific requests for me to check out, please post them in our official review thread. I will be supporting this product in a similar fashion to how I do with the Denon AVP-A1HDCI. thanks.

Hey Gene,

Wanted to see if you received your review sample and if you have had any time to work with it yet.

Would love to know some initial thoughts

Particularly interested in SQ impressions between the Z7, the 5308, the Z11 and even more highend equipment (Anthem AVM 50 or D2 possibly . Also on the SQ front since you can shut of all the internal amps and use it as a pre/pro how does it sound and preform as a pre/pro with an external amp compared to the sound as a receiver with the internal amps. There will likely be some differences but as far as clarity, detail, and spaciousness would love to know if there are any differences.

Also if you can comment on the identified draw backs fo the Z11 (below black above white and the cross over issues) that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for all the detailed reviews you provide. It helps a great deal in making a educated purchases.

Sincerely,

David West
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post #141 of 1294 Old 12-01-2008, 11:00 AM
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Yes, I would love to get some updated info on this unit as well. Sounds like a lot of ability packed into this thing - just wonder if it delivers it all.
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post #142 of 1294 Old 12-01-2008, 11:47 AM
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M biggest question is whether the Z7 improves poor quality 480i video. The 3900 does not appear to do anything useful in that department. I admit that I was hoping a receiver with the ABT 2010 could do SOMETHING useful to SD.

This has led me to speculate that the the 3900 has no Noise Reduction.

If the Z7 delivers NR that works, I will consider buying it in a few years when it's affordable.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #143 of 1294 Old 12-01-2008, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdwest View Post

Hey Gene,

Wanted to see if you received your review sample and if you have had any time to work with it yet.

Would love to know some initial thoughts

Particularly interested in SQ impressions between the Z7, the 5308, the Z11 and even more highend equipment (Anthem AVM 50 or D2 possibly . Also on the SQ front since you can shut of all the internal amps and use it as a pre/pro how does it sound and preform as a pre/pro with an external amp compared to the sound as a receiver with the internal amps. There will likely be some differences but as far as clarity, detail, and spaciousness would love to know if there are any differences.

Also if you can comment on the identified draw backs fo the Z11 (below black above white and the cross over issues) that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for all the detailed reviews you provide. It helps a great deal in making a educated purchases.

Sincerely,

David West

David,
Gene has setup shop on his Audioholics thread and is facilitating all requests from that spot. I think this forum would be for more general commentary outside of the Audioholic review of the Z7. Just wanted to let you know so you could have your question reviewed.

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post #144 of 1294 Old 12-01-2008, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sticknstones View Post

David,
Gene has setup shop on his Audioholics thread and is facilitating all requests from that spot. I think this forum would be for more general commentary outside of the Audioholic review of the Z7. Just wanted to let you know so you could have your question reviewed.

Thanks for note. I have published that question there as well.
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post #145 of 1294 Old 12-01-2008, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

M biggest question is whether the Z7 improves poor quality 480i video. The 3900 does not appear to do anything useful in that department. I admit that I was hoping a receiver with the ABT 2010 could do SOMETHING useful to SD.

This has led me to speculate that the the 3900 has no Noise Reduction.

If the Z7 delivers NR that works, I will consider buying it in a few years when it's affordable.

Not much to go on, but I did see this claim that the Z7 helps SD: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...9&postcount=25
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post #146 of 1294 Old 12-01-2008, 12:52 PM
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Unless the dude is stoned, that's sad. That would make me feel the 3900 could do the same thing if you could just flip a bit somewhere Well, there's always the possibility of buying a discounted Z7 in a year or two.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #147 of 1294 Old 12-01-2008, 01:46 PM
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Is the 3900 or Z7 upgradeable via serial (or USB, maybe?) if Yamaha produces a fix / upgrade?

Is there any history of Yamaha doing this with prior receivers ?

I'm thinking of using one of these as a pre / pro, so I'm not sure the Z7 is really worth the extra $ (about $525 street diff.) in that role?
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post #148 of 1294 Old 12-01-2008, 01:47 PM
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I thought that the 3800 (in US anyway) was upgradeable via USB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post

Is the 3900 or Z7 upgradeable via serial (or USB, maybe?) if Yamaha produces a fix / upgrade?

Is there any history of Yamaha doing this with prior receivers ?

I'm thinking of using one of these as a pre / pro, so I'm not sure the Z7 is really worth the extra $ (about $525 street diff.) in that role?

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post #149 of 1294 Old 12-01-2008, 01:53 PM
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Yamaha occasionally releases firmware updates. Don't expect much. If the 3900 is hooked up to the internet, it can update that way, which worked pretty well, actually.

I think it might also work with a USB flash drive.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #150 of 1294 Old 12-01-2008, 03:20 PM
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Just noticed a FW update for the Z7, dated November 4. It is up on the Yamaha site, after sign in. Also noted the same version available for the 3900. Stated vaguely about "improving GUI experience, Stability" etc...

What did it Fix / Add? I'm assuming it has been tried, or that most units maybe shipped with this version ?

Thanks.
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