"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 190 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5671 of 6824 Old 12-19-2014, 03:07 PM
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I am having an issue with my VSX-821-K... although there are a RCA subwoofer output and pre-outs for the surround back/front height, the MCACC does not pick them up during calibration; and the speakers are connected. I refuse to believe that ALL of the RCA outputs have been shorted, but right now the only sound I am picking up are the high level sound... in other words, all the connections that has a speaker wire connected to it; FL/FR/C/SL/SR.
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post #5672 of 6824 Old 12-22-2014, 08:46 AM
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For those of you working with MCACC "Acoustic Calibration EQ Professional" and wanting to understand how to use the graphs to set the calibration time, I found this explanation in a manual for a European model that is a little more helpful that the same section in my SC-87 manual:

Acoustic Calibration EQ Professional
How to interpret the graphical output
The graph shows decibels on the vertical axis and time (in milliseconds) on the horizontal axis. A straight line indicates a flat-response room (no reverb), whereas a sloping line indicates the presence of reverberation when outputting test tones. The sloping line will eventually flatten out when the reverberant sound stabilizes (this usually takes about 100 ms or so). By analyzing the graph, you should be able to see how your room is responding to certain frequencies. Differences in channel level and speaker distance are taken into account automatically (compensation is provided for comparison purposes), and the frequency measurements can be examined both with and without the equalization performed by this receiver.

Setting Acoustic Calibration EQ Professional according to your room characteristics
Using the manual setup, you can set the time period at which the frequency response is analyzed, pinpointing the time that is best for system calibration with your particular room characteristics. The graph below shows the difference between conventional acoustic calibration and professional calibration (the gray circle indicates the point where the microphone captures sound during frequency analysis).

As soon as audio is output from your speaker system, it is influenced by room characteristics, such as walls, furniture, and the dimensions of the room. The sooner the frequency analysis, the less it is influenced by the room. We recommend an earlier time setting of 30~50ms to compensate for two major factors that will influence the sound of most rooms:
• Reverberance of high vs. low frequencies –
Depending on your room, you may find that lower frequencies seem overly reverberant compared to higher frequencies (i.e. your room sounds ‘boomy’). This may result in a skewed frequency analysis if the measurement is done too late.

• Reverb characteristics for different channels –
Reverb characteristics can be somewhat different for each channel. Since this difference increases as the sound is influenced by the various room characteristics, it is often better to capture a frequency analysis early on for smoother mixing of channel frequencies/sounds.

If your room isn’t affected by the factors above, it is often not necessary to make a 30~50ms setting. Later time settings may provide a more detailed sound experience with your speaker system. It is best to try and see what works best for your particular room. Note that changing the room (for example, moving furniture or paintings) will affect the calibration results. In such cases, you should recalibrate your system.
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post #5673 of 6824 Old 12-24-2014, 05:52 AM
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Cool Mcacc pro eq

Hi new to the forum this is my first post.
Questions.
I have a def tec 8060 center change and I'm trying to eq it with the eq in mcacc. I am having difficulty getting s nice natural sound I get either muffled sound or real harsh sound that's hurting the ears with sssss sounds to defined please help me.
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post #5674 of 6824 Old 12-24-2014, 06:22 AM
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I am also unsure I've the eq pro timing. I've ran the mcacc several times with different times and I usually get back a real bright sound with to many diffrences and unnatural sounds. I just want a nice smooth natural sound. What times should I be using. I'm doing it wrong?

I'm going blind and have really sensitive ears. I find certain frequencies hurt. I just want a nice smooth natural sound. Crisp and detailed but not to bright.

I have definitive technology Bp 20 mains set to large. A def tech 8060 centre. Set to large. 4 x energy rc for surrounds (7.1) set to small with a crossover setting of 100 a def tech super cube LFE. And it's running of of my pioneer sc1528
Any help would be anticipated.
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post #5675 of 6824 Old 12-25-2014, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coriehc View Post
I am also unsure I've the eq pro timing. I've ran the mcacc several times with different times and I usually get back a real bright sound with to many diffrences and unnatural sounds. I just want a nice smooth natural sound. What times should I be using. I'm doing it wrong?

I'm going blind and have really sensitive ears. I find certain frequencies hurt. I just want a nice smooth natural sound. Crisp and detailed but not to bright.

I have definitive technology Bp 20 mains set to large. A def tech 8060 centre. Set to large. 4 x energy rc for surrounds (7.1) set to small with a crossover setting of 100 a def tech super cube LFE. And it's running of of my pioneer sc1528
Any help would be anticipated.
I found that using a good tripod and adjusting the orientation of the mic to point it slightly forward helped. Sitting it on a pillow on the couch at ear height did not yield good results. Also it must be absolutely quiet...I ended up unplugging two refrigerators, a water cooler, a fish tank, and turning off the furnace and two computers before I got decent results. Actually, the only thing I could hear during the calibration was the fan on the sc-87.

After doing all of this I found that the sound didn't differ much to my ears with the different calibration time. A bigger difference, although not that great, was between the 'all ch adjust' and 'symmetry' calibrations. And the biggest difference overall is between mcacc and no mcacc. I also have to say that I prefer no mcacc for stereo music listening. And that's interesting, and disappointing, to me because a good calibration, in my mind, should make everything sound better. Consequently, most of the time I leave EQ disabled.

Sean
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post #5676 of 6824 Old 12-25-2014, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coriehc View Post
I am also unsure I've the eq pro timing. I've ran the mcacc several times with different times and I usually get back a real bright sound with to many diffrences and unnatural sounds. I just want a nice smooth natural sound. What times should I be using. I'm doing it wrong?

I'm going blind and have really sensitive ears. I find certain frequencies hurt. I just want a nice smooth natural sound. Crisp and detailed but not to bright.

I have definitive technology Bp 20 mains set to large. A def tech 8060 centre. Set to large. 4 x energy rc for surrounds (7.1) set to small with a crossover setting of 100 a def tech super cube LFE. And it's running of of my pioneer sc1528
Any help would be anticipated.


Did you play with the X-Curve setting? That always something I dial in on a Pioneer AVR after I run my MCACC. The X-Curve takes the very high frequencies down a bit. I always usually dial in a -2 or -3 slop in the curve.
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post #5677 of 6824 Old 12-26-2014, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Sean_S View Post
I found that using a good tripod and adjusting the orientation of the mic to point it slightly forward helped. Sitting it on a pillow on the couch at ear height did not yield good results. Also it must be absolutely quiet...I ended up unplugging two refrigerators, a water cooler, a fish tank, and turning off the furnace and two computers before I got decent results. Actually, the only thing I could hear during the calibration was the fan on the sc-87.

After doing all of this I found that the sound didn't differ much to my ears with the different calibration time. A bigger difference, although not that great, was between the 'all ch adjust' and 'symmetry' calibrations. And the biggest difference overall is between mcacc and no mcacc. I also have to say that I prefer no mcacc for stereo music listening. And that's interesting, and disappointing, to me because a good calibration, in my mind, should make everything sound better. Consequently, most of the time I leave EQ disabled.

Sean
I've been tweaking. I find it's sounding way better with the eq off. I actually set the mic in top of a paint roller extension and jam it in between two couch cushions so its at ear height. Thinking should maybe still get a tripod. I find all channel adjust better I have an od shaped room with high ceilings.
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post #5678 of 6824 Old 12-26-2014, 04:52 AM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by NismoZ View Post
Did you play with the X-Curve setting? That always something I dial in on a Pioneer AVR after I run my MCACC. The X-Curve takes the very high frequencies down a bit. I always usually dial in a -2 or -3 slop in the curve.
Scurvy at -2 sounds much better now with eq off. I guess I just don't kike the Mcacc eq otherwise it's sounding pretty dam sweet now.
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post #5679 of 6824 Old 12-27-2014, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Sean_S View Post
I found that using a good tripod and adjusting the orientation of the mic to point it slightly forward helped. Sitting it on a pillow on the couch at ear height did not yield good results. Also it must be absolutely quiet...I ended up unplugging two refrigerators, a water cooler, a fish tank, and turning off the furnace and two computers before I got decent results. Actually, the only thing I could hear during the calibration was the fan on the sc-87.

After doing all of this I found that the sound didn't differ much to my ears with the different calibration time. A bigger difference, although not that great, was between the 'all ch adjust' and 'symmetry' calibrations. And the biggest difference overall is between mcacc and no mcacc. I also have to say that I prefer no mcacc for stereo music listening. And that's interesting, and disappointing, to me because a good calibration, in my mind, should make everything sound better. Consequently, most of the time I leave EQ disabled.

Sean
Check out post 5670! So it turns out that I'm not the only one whose multi-channel and stereo results are different. I actually came up with settings I could tolerate when listening in both multi-channel and stereo, but the bass sounded overdriven when listening in both. So in frustration, I deleted all my MCACC settings, turned EQ and S. WAVE off, and selected PURE DIRECT. I even turned off my subwoofer. I have noticed that after giving matters like this a rest for a while, it clears my head and new ideas of EQ settings enter my mind. I can't use the mic because I don't really have a good place to set it up. So I go into EQ adjust and do it by ear and by hand. I also have X-CURVE in the speaker menu set to off. Right now, with all my speakers set to LARGE, all MCACC settings deleted, EQ, S. WAVE, and DIALOG E. set to OFF, and PURE DIRECT selected, it sounds like my speakers produce the full range, with a strong presence in midrange. While I like to understand dialog, I don't want speech to lose its natural overtones for the sake of intelligibility. Any ideas?
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post #5680 of 6824 Old 12-29-2014, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post
Check out post 5670! So it turns out that I'm not the only one whose multi-channel and stereo results are different. I actually came up with settings I could tolerate when listening in both multi-channel and stereo, but the bass sounded overdriven when listening in both. So in frustration, I deleted all my MCACC settings, turned EQ and S. WAVE off, and selected PURE DIRECT. I even turned off my subwoofer. I have noticed that after giving matters like this a rest for a while, it clears my head and new ideas of EQ settings enter my mind. I can't use the mic because I don't really have a good place to set it up. So I go into EQ adjust and do it by ear and by hand. I also have X-CURVE in the speaker menu set to off. Right now, with all my speakers set to LARGE, all MCACC settings deleted, EQ, S. WAVE, and DIALOG E. set to OFF, and PURE DIRECT selected, it sounds like my speakers produce the full range, with a strong presence in midrange. While I like to understand dialog, I don't want speech to lose its natural overtones for the sake of intelligibility. Any ideas?
My theory is there is some sort of baseline that is applied with MCACC even before you make a calibration. Out of the box, MCACC preset 1 had a curve applied where the sound was different than Direct (not pureDirect)--even with all parameters zeroed out, MCACC is doing something. And whatever it is "favors" multichannel movie sound vs stereo music recordings. Presumably it is why they offer the Direct mode in the first place; otherwise, just zeroing out MCACC would work. Just my thoughts.

Last edited by Sean_S; 12-29-2014 at 01:35 PM.
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post #5681 of 6824 Old 12-30-2014, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean_S View Post
My theory is there is some sort of baseline that is applied with MCACC even before you make a calibration. Out of the box, MCACC preset 1 had a curve applied where the sound was different than Direct (not pureDirect)--even with all parameters zeroed out, MCACC is doing something. And whatever it is "favors" multichannel movie sound vs stereo music recordings. Presumably it is why they offer the Direct mode in the first place; otherwise, just zeroing out MCACC would work. Just my thoughts.
From what I understand, the only difference is that EQ and S. WAVE are available in DIRECT. So in order for DIRECT to resemble PURE DIRECT, you'd have to make sure TONE is set to BYPASS, and EQ, S. WAVE, DIALOGUE E, and DRC are set to OFF. I'm sure there are other settings available in DIRECT that aren't available in PURE DIRECT, so if you set them to NO, NONE, OFF, etc., DIRECT and PURE DIRECT should be the same.
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post #5682 of 6824 Old 12-30-2014, 01:23 PM
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From what I understand, the only difference is that EQ and S. WAVE are available in DIRECT. So in order for DIRECT to resemble PURE DIRECT, you'd have to make sure TONE is set to BYPASS, and EQ, S. WAVE, DIALOGUE E, and DRC are set to OFF. I'm sure there are other settings available in DIRECT that aren't available in PURE DIRECT, so if you set them to NO, NONE, OFF, etc., DIRECT and PURE DIRECT should be the same.
I agree.

I was noticing a difference when using MCACC preset one with defaults, all eqs zeroed, eq disabled, swave disabled, and tone on bypass, etc and Direct.

My point being that MCACC is doing "something" over the Direct modes, even when there is no calibration/configuration....something we can't adjust , we can only disable it and use Direct mode. This all going back to the bummer that one calibration isn't good for both movies and music. It's almost as if one could say that, say, the manual EQ controls in MCACC should be looked at more as "parameter" in the MCACC code vs as values in a quality EQ processor.

Sean
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post #5683 of 6824 Old 01-01-2015, 12:02 AM
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Hi

I have pioneer elite sc-lx87
Wharfedale Jade 7 Tower fronts / Large Jade 2c Centre / Jade 5 Tower Rears

This is my group phase graft, does it look worse after calibration?

Thanks
Mike
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HTPC (MediaPortal) / Pioneer SC LX87 / Wharfedale Jade 7 Fronts, 5 Rears, 2c Center / DIY Sub
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post #5684 of 6824 Old 01-03-2015, 01:14 PM
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does it look worse after calibration?
Better above 1kHz and worse somewhere below that.
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post #5685 of 6824 Old 01-03-2015, 08:55 PM
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It looks like if only the surround was modified it would be a lot better end result. (is this possible?)

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post #5686 of 6824 Old 01-03-2015, 09:37 PM
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The low end on the center seems a bit out of whack, everything else looks a little better to me after a quick glance. Is the mic on a tripod?

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #5687 of 6824 Old 01-05-2015, 10:43 AM
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Better above 1kHz and worse somewhere below that.
I agree. Is group delay compensation less important at lower frequencies? Seems to be how MCACC is treating it.
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post #5688 of 6824 Old 01-06-2015, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean_S View Post
I agree.

I was noticing a difference when using MCACC preset one with defaults, all eqs zeroed, eq disabled, swave disabled, and tone on bypass, etc and Direct.

My point being that MCACC is doing "something" over the Direct modes, even when there is no calibration/configuration....something we can't adjust , we can only disable it and use Direct mode. This all going back to the bummer that one calibration isn't good for both movies and music. It's almost as if one could say that, say, the manual EQ controls in MCACC should be looked at more as "parameter" in the MCACC code vs as values in a quality EQ processor.

Sean
A flat frequency response should be good for movies and music. Also, Pure direct is the last thing I would use and would not waste much time with it unless I have a perfect room. Without a perfect room, some EQ is a must.

It is interesting this sounds like a discussion 3 years ago, lol.
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post #5689 of 6824 Old 01-07-2015, 02:08 PM
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So I have a 2 channel setup, using a Pioneer VSX-921, currently set to Pure Direct, L/R set to LARGE, crossover set to 80Hz, no sub, will setting the X over to 50Hz provide more bass, i.e. will it reduce the bass cut/off level? Or does bass get sent regardless to the L/R fronts when set to large and in Pure Direct?


Reading the recent posts above, is probably the answer, but I would like confirmation on the matter.


Thanks.
+1 for this, I was curious if this does impact the bass performance at all. I have a Pioneer Elite SC-71 hooked up to two Martin Logan Motion 40's (bi-amp) and have been looking to get the most out of these beautiful sounding and looking speakers.

TV: Panasonic Viera VT50 55 | A/V Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC-71 | Speakers: Martin Logan Motion 40's (Bi-Amped) | Cables: AudioQuest Cinnamon HDMI Cables + AudioQuest Rocket 33's (split)
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post #5690 of 6824 Old 01-09-2015, 09:54 AM
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+1 for this, I was curious if this does impact the bass performance at all. I have a Pioneer Elite SC-71 hooked up to two Martin Logan Motion 40's (bi-amp) and have been looking to get the most out of these beautiful sounding and looking speakers.
For a 2 channel setup, you should not be using any crossover because you're not using a subwoofer for redirected bass. Set the receiver to speakers set to Large and select "NO" for the subwoofer.
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post #5691 of 6824 Old 01-11-2015, 01:54 PM
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Why does MCACC always change my speakers to large and set my sub gain to almost off whenever i do a Calibration? This is with my SC61 and the same for a SC35.

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post #5692 of 6824 Old 01-11-2015, 01:57 PM
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Anyone in here went to mcacc from xt32
Opinions ?
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post #5693 of 6824 Old 01-11-2015, 05:43 PM
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Guys I've had a long time experience with various RC and EQ systems going back to the Meridian days in the 90's. More recently I've had systems with Audyssey (several and up to XT32 Pro), ARC(very briefly), and Room Perfect(my current fav). More recently I swapped out the Receiver in the system at my weekender to a SC-LX87(79 equiv.) last year and quite recently to a SC-LX88(89 equiv.) and had Atmos speakers installed (7.1.2). I am about to go back this week finally and redo that system. So given how different I've noticed MCACC to be to other systems, I came to this thread. What I noticed straight away was that it is quite an old thread which immediately prompted me to wonder if there's been changes since then to MCACC in newer Pioneer products just as there has been over time with products that license say Audyssey? Is there anything that needs to be done differently in the newer systems to what's stated in the FAQ or is fine to use it as is? I also really wondered about the approach with MCACC where it's recommended to set crossovers to 100hz as this would be specifically 80hz with Audyssey and other systems? Wouldn't 100hz neuter the frequency response of all of the speakers?

Any tips in relation to my queries here are much appreciated!
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post #5694 of 6824 Old 01-12-2015, 06:01 AM
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I also really wondered about the approach with MCACC where it's recommended to set crossovers to 100hz as this would be specifically 80hz with Audyssey and other systems?
Set the crossover to fit your speakers. This step in post 1 says "for me." In older versions of MCACC at least (I have an 1120), there is a single crossover applied to all channels, so some have to use 100hz because of their surrounds.
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post #5695 of 6824 Old 01-12-2015, 06:26 AM
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I also really wondered about the approach with MCACC where it's recommended to set crossovers to 100hz as this would be specifically 80hz with Audyssey and other systems?
Set the crossover to fit your speakers. This step in post 1 says "for me." In older versions of MCACC at least (I have an 1120), there is a single crossover applied to all channels, so some have to use 100hz because of their surrounds.
Same exact approach could he taken with Audyssey but it's not. It's always a recommendation of small and 80hz for ideal EQing and reproduction, regardless if you have 30-40hz say capable fronts or surrounds. So how would that apply any diff to MCACC? It's not like it's got a leg up in regards to Audyssey in that sense.
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post #5696 of 6824 Old 01-12-2015, 07:10 AM
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Why does MCACC always change my speakers to large and set my sub gain to almost off whenever i do a Calibration? This is with my SC61 and the same for a SC35.
Two different issues since the speakers (including sub) are measured independently.

1. If MCACC thinks your speaker has significant LF energy (I do not recall where the test tones lie nor am I sure what criteria it uses but it really does not matter) it will set them to large. In fact a number of EQ programs tend to set speakers to large. Just change them to small. Note "small" really means "use bass management" and is what I do regardless of how "large" my speakers are or how low they go.

2. Sub gain low implies either high gain in the sub (turn the knob on the sub down) or potentially it is measuring at a peak in room response. The latter will be hard to determine without some sort of measuring system.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #5697 of 6824 Old 01-12-2015, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post
Why does MCACC always change my speakers to large and set my sub gain to almost off whenever i do a Calibration? This is with my SC61 and the same for a SC35.
Two different issues since the speakers (including sub) are measured independently.

1. If MCACC thinks your speaker has significant LF energy (I do not recall where the test tones lie nor am I sure what criteria it uses but it really does not matter) it will set them to large. In fact a number of EQ programs tend to set speakers to large. Just change them to small. Note "small" really means "use bass management" and is what I do regardless of how "large" my speakers are or how low they go.

2. Sub gain low implies either high gain in the sub (turn the knob on the sub down) or potentially it is measuring at a peak in room response. The latter will be hard to determine without some sort of measuring system.

HTH - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #5698 of 6824 Old 01-12-2015, 06:11 PM
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Same exact approach could he taken with Audyssey but it's not. It's always a recommendation of small and 80hz for ideal EQing and reproduction, regardless if you have 30-40hz say capable fronts or surrounds. So how would that apply any diff to MCACC? It's not like it's got a leg up in regards to Audyssey in that sense.
I decided to ask for thoughts on this over on the Audyssey thread. Turns out I can shed further light on where things should be at crossover-wise with MCACC. Some versions (not XT32) of Audyssey benefit from keeping a higher crossover point at say 80hz. However if you have genuinely capable speakers you can prob drop the crossover down to 60hz say without impinging on bass management with the more advanced XT32 version. I would suggest as this is generally true for most current REQ systems, that perhaps it the guide on page one could be amended to clarify crossover setup accordingly rather than a cursory comment given it's a very important element of bass management in any REQ system. In my system as it turns out 80hz is pretty much right on the money for the ML Motion series I use that have a response to 70hz, therefore allowing a bit of headroom.
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post #5699 of 6824 Old 01-13-2015, 08:18 AM
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Hello People! I have a very interesting 4.0 - sound question regarding a use of Subwoofer in all listening modes of Pioneer SC LX 56 in a Dolby Surround Pro Logic (plus or minus THX - mode it doesn't affect the problem):

When using a officcial Test THX - Laserdisc testing isolated L, C, R and Surround frequency sweep from 20 - 20000 Hz following strange thing happens in THX- modes or non - THX modes in the same way:

There is a regular Sub Sweep in L, C, R channels in all Pioneer listening modes. Now look this:

Only in in GAME - mode there is a surround subwoofer-active sweep 20 - 20000 Hz in same strength as L, C, R channels. In all other modes (PL MOVIEx or z, NEO:X modes) in isolated surround speaker test subwoofer is completely ignoring the 20 - approx 200 Hz. In MUSIC - modes sub - surround sweep is functioning but it's very quiet until approx. 200 Hz.

That means, when a deep rumble moves to the back of your room, in all DOLBY or NEO:X modes except "GAME" it stops rumbling when surround channels take over.

Now, why is that so? And why is only a Game mode correctly playing complete sound spectrum 20 - 20000 Hz?

I think, it's ridiculous. Maybe someone more experienced in Dolby Surround PL and Pioneer's "logic" behind (in-)correct reproduction could explain it?

Thanx, s.

Last edited by seroxx; 01-13-2015 at 08:23 AM.
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post #5700 of 6824 Old 01-15-2015, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
I decided to ask for thoughts on this over on the Audyssey thread. Turns out I can shed further light on where things should be at crossover-wise with MCACC. Some versions (not XT32) of Audyssey benefit from keeping a higher crossover point at say 80hz. However if you have genuinely capable speakers you can prob drop the crossover down to 60hz say without impinging on bass management with the more advanced XT32 version. I would suggest as this is generally true for most current REQ systems, that perhaps it the guide on page one could be amended to clarify crossover setup accordingly rather than a cursory comment given it's a very important element of bass management in any REQ system. In my system as it turns out 80hz is pretty much right on the money for the ML Motion series I use that have a response to 70hz, therefore allowing a bit of headroom.
Systems with a capable sub should XO the speaker at 50 or 80 Hz even if the speakers are rated +/- 3 db at 35 HZ. In general a sub will do a better job with the low bass than a tower speaker. There will be less speaker cone breakup which introduces distortion. The avr headroom is increased which helps for a more dynamic midrange. Anything below 63Hz with MCACC is not bass managed.

People feel a need to use low XO points because they have these great speakers. Wrong, I have Klipsch RF 7 HT and run the speakers set to small XO at 80 Hz. Even setting individual xo for each speaker in the majority of cases is not advantageous and dose not produce better SQ. A XO is meant to blend the drivers in the system and protect the drivers. That is it. No magic associated with it. IMHO, I will take MCACC over any of the Auddysee systems . What it dose with standing waves is just as important as Sub EQ.

Last edited by derrickdj1; 01-17-2015 at 06:23 PM.
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