"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 225 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6721 of 6817 Old 03-02-2019, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ST Dog View Post
Direct Energy is pioneer's marketing name for class D amps. Started with automotive amps.

Best I can tell, Direct Energy HD is the marketing name for the higher quality design from the Elite SC series, I assume less noise from a more advanced/expensive design.

The D[sup]3[/sup] term I can't find anything clear about. Looks to be an improved HD but not sure what it really means. If you can point to documentation that Direct Energy is not class D I'll that, but the published specs aren't always clear.

For example, max power per channel w/ all channels driven.
Here you go. This will explain it better. Class D amplifier is different then a Direct energy HD amplifier. This is why i mention always look at the power consumption rating of a amp (avr) this is a clear way to tell what type of amp it is.

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...+HD+Amplifiers

(Living Room) Sony XBR-65X900E 4K TV, Sony UBP-X800 4K BD player, Pioneer SC-LX502, Def Tech BP9020's, A90 atmos, CS-9040 C and Di 5.5R surrounds

(Garage) Sherwood RX-4105 Receiver, Samsung DVD/CD player, Klipsch 2.5 med oak speakers
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post #6722 of 6817 Old 03-02-2019, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RKSKYDANCER View Post
Here you go. This will explain it better. Class D amplifier is different then a Direct energy HD amplifier.
From that link
"Direct Energy HD amplifier - A class D amplifier"

What it doesn't cover is the "direct energy" amp as the VSX-LX503.

Or what the D[sup]3[/sup] means vs just "Direct Energy HD" (SC-LX501 vs SC-LX502)
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post #6723 of 6817 Old 03-03-2019, 10:52 AM
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Dumb question but what should the volume be on the Sub before starting MCACC ?

I just answered my own question, its actually in the manual
4 Follow the instructions on-screen.
Make sure the microphone is connected, and if
you’re using a subwoofer, make sure it is switched
on and set to a comfortable volume level.
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post #6724 of 6817 Old 03-03-2019, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kezug View Post
Dumb question but what should the volume be on the Sub before starting MCACC ?

I just answered my own question, its actually in the manual
4 Follow the instructions on-screen.
Make sure the microphone is connected, and if
you’re using a subwoofer, make sure it is switched
on and set to a comfortable volume level.

From my experience on the newer MCACC setup. I’d have been reading that “most” subs should be about 50% on the sub volume. Once you get inside the MCACC, I’m very certain that the main volume should be set to “-0” from my experience.

Receiver : Pioneer Elite SC-LX701
Main & Center Speakers : Phase Technology PC 3.5, & Surrounds
Amplifiers : Emotiva UPA-1 Monoblocks, SVS SB3000 Subwoofer
MonsterPower HTS5100, Harmony Elite Remote
TV & Sources: Sony 75” 900F, Bluesound Node 2, Xbox One & Apple TV4K
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post #6725 of 6817 Old 03-03-2019, 11:33 AM
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1) When you guys are running the FULL AUTO MCACC, do you run it and let it do it’s thing.

2) Then go back in the Speaker settings menu to change the speaker sizes and the crossover.

3) then go into the REVERB MEASUREMENT and use WITHOUT EQ.

4) Get your readings from the REVERB VIEW. Find the right timing for your room.

5) Then go into EQ PROFESSIONAL, chose your timing based upon the Reverb view you did previously and pick your SYM, ALL CH ADJ, or FRONT ALN?


I’m specifically trying to figure out when is the proper time to change the speaker sizes and crossover.

Receiver : Pioneer Elite SC-LX701
Main & Center Speakers : Phase Technology PC 3.5, & Surrounds
Amplifiers : Emotiva UPA-1 Monoblocks, SVS SB3000 Subwoofer
MonsterPower HTS5100, Harmony Elite Remote
TV & Sources: Sony 75” 900F, Bluesound Node 2, Xbox One & Apple TV4K

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post #6726 of 6817 Old 03-03-2019, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd1010 View Post
should be about 50% on the sub volume. Once you get inside the MCACC, I’m very certain that the main volume should be set to “-0” from my experience.
Yeh, 50% is a good starting point. Then tweak till MCACC sets the level near zero. Then the other speakers will balance too that.

But, look at the other levels too. Make sure none are extreme. I'd want all to be within ±12dBb (I no extreme + or -)

Be especially watchful for extremes, like one +10 and another -10.
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post #6727 of 6817 Old 03-03-2019, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kezug View Post
Dumb question but what should the volume be on the Sub before starting MCACC ?

I just answered my own question, its actually in the manual
4 Follow the instructions on-screen.
Make sure the microphone is connected, and if
you’re using a subwoofer, make sure it is switched
on and set to a comfortable volume level.
If you have an SPL meter or an app on your phone that functions as one, have two options.

Option 1. Before running the MCACC calibration, you can go into the manual speaker settings of the AVR, and then go to channel level adjustment which will produce a pink noise tone for each channel. scroll to the subwoofer channel so that the sub is reproducing the pink noise. Now that the pink noise is playing from your sub, go to your main listening position (where you will eventually place the MCACC microphone), and use the SPL meter or app to see what the reading/level is at that location. Then adjust the volume knob on the subwoofer until you get 75db of pink noise at that listening position. This should give you a great start before running the MCACC calibration.

Option 2. run the MCACC calibration. Then, go to manual channel adjustments as mentioned in option 1, and test what the SPL level is that the MCACC set for your sub (Be sure to have the memory setting that you used for the calibration so you could see what the MCACC results are for that memory slot). Now, compare the SPL reading is on the meter to the gain setting that the subwoofer channel is set to. For example, if the sub channel is set to +5db and the reading on the meter says 75db at the listening position where you placed the MCACC microphone, then in order to get the sub channel back down to 0db of gain on the AVR, you can turn your subwoofer volume knob up until you get an 80db reading on the meter. Then you can turn the sub channel back to 0db and confirm that your SPL meter is once again reading the 75db that the MCACC set it to.
good luck.
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post #6728 of 6817 Old 03-03-2019, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welldun View Post
If you have an SPL meter or an app on your phone that functions as one, have two options.

Option 1. Before running the MCACC calibration, you can go into the manual speaker settings of the AVR, and then go to channel level adjustment which will produce a pink noise tone for each channel. scroll to the subwoofer channel so that the sub is reproducing the pink noise. Now that the pink noise is playing from your sub, go to your main listening position (where you will eventually place the MCACC microphone), and use the SPL meter or app to see what the reading/level is at that location. Then adjust the volume knob on the subwoofer until you get 75db of pink noise at that listening position. This should give you a great start before running the MCACC calibration.

Option 2. run the MCACC calibration. Then, go to manual channel adjustments as mentioned in option 1, and test what the SPL level is that the MCACC set for your sub (Be sure to have the memory setting that you used for the calibration so you could see what the MCACC results are for that memory slot). Now, compare the SPL reading is on the meter to the gain setting that the subwoofer channel is set to. For example, if the sub channel is set to +5db and the reading on the meter says 75db at the listening position where you placed the MCACC microphone, then in order to get the sub channel back down to 0db of gain on the AVR, you can turn your subwoofer volume knob up until you get an 80db reading on the meter. Then you can turn the sub channel back to 0db and confirm that your SPL meter is once again reading the 75db that the MCACC set it to.
good luck.

That is great information. I wish I knew this going into the testing. I missed this post.

I wish the manual was a bit more specific. I did all MCACC at -20db on the Reciever. It was plenty loud and "comforable".
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post #6729 of 6817 Old 03-03-2019, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by kezug View Post
I wish the manual was a bit more specific. I did all MCACC at -20db on the Reciever. It was plenty loud and "comforable".
The AVR volume know shouldn't matter.

The comments were about the volume knob on the sub so it calibrates with a reasonable level.
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post #6730 of 6817 Old 03-04-2019, 03:27 AM
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If any of you lose your calibration mic or buy a used receiver that didn't come with one like I did (VSX 1123 in mint condition for $80 on ebay) and need a new one I found this on ebay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/100-Replace...72.m2749.l2649

Took 3 weeks to arrive and when I opened it was concerned it was the wrong part, stamped "Denon DM 5205". However it worked like a charm so all in all it turned out to be a good purchase. HTH someone.
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post #6731 of 6817 Old 03-04-2019, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ST Dog View Post
The AVR volume know shouldn't matter.

The comments were about the volume knob on the sub so it calibrates with a reasonable level.
That's correct. When you run the Manual or Auto Calibration with the AVR, the main volume is bypassed, and the Calibration automatically sends out the pink noise signal at the appropriate level so that you or it can set the sub and speakers up properly.
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post #6732 of 6817 Old 03-04-2019, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim Teague View Post
stamped "Denon DM 5205". However it worked like a charm so all in all it turned out to be a good purchase.
Which confirms that more readily available mics like that Denon work. Ps, DM-S205 (S not 5 after the dash)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001EXYTVS
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post #6733 of 6817 Old 03-08-2019, 07:15 AM
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Thanks for the clarification. I wish I had known going in it would work, cheaper and faster delivery from Amazon. However I'm glad to share info with the forum and really grateful it worked.
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post #6734 of 6817 Old 03-08-2019, 11:30 AM
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It is not that my room is horrible, I liked the adjustability and features of the "Advanced MCACC" and figured a $1000 receiver from the same manufacturer should provide similar features. It is much easier to tweak the "Advanced MCACC" than the basic version. I have not even been able to view what the 503 did as far as equalization or channel levels on the Data Check, the only thing it shows after calibration is speaker distances, no EQ levels or speaker levels after calibration. On my 1222 I could view all the EQ curves and levels set by MCACC, even export them to a PC.


I should have researched the 503 more but was pressed for time, the window for Pioneer to offer anything for my dead 1222 was rapidly closing. I probably should have gotten the 701 but the wife would have been pissed spending that much money so I took what they offered. Also I did not need the Pro version of MCACC because I didn't need the sub EQ. I did not realize that it was ONLY basic MCACC or PRO and nothing in between.

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post #6735 of 6817 Old 03-08-2019, 04:15 PM
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You could probably sell it and have enough for used or refurb 701.

I do wish you had asked here before. Sounds like they offered you credit toward the replacement.

I was offered a 501 as a replacement by another company and requested the 701 instead. They agreed. (I should have taken cash though)
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post #6736 of 6817 Old 03-08-2019, 06:01 PM
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Can someone help me understand how to choose proper Cross Over for my sub? And not only suggest but explain what goes into the decision. Thanks!

I have the following speakers and the crossover is set at 80Hz

Infinity Primus
Front L/R P-163, Freq Range: 49Hz – 20kHz
Center PC-351, Freq Range: 80Hz – 20kHz
Surrounds P-143 Freq Range: 100Hz – 20kHz

Subwoofer: BIC PL200 ii Freq Response 21Hz - 200Hz

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post #6737 of 6817 Old 03-09-2019, 06:18 AM
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Easy. Measure with REW (see sig). Slope from sub(s) intersects slope from main(s). Hence, crossover.
Specs won't tell you what to do. May as well leave it at 80 unless you can hear a dramatic problem.
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!
Don't guess, measure: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post22789786
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post #6738 of 6817 Old 03-09-2019, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRussell View Post
It is not that my room is horrible, I liked the adjustability and features of the "Advanced MCACC" and figured a $1000 receiver from the same manufacturer should provide similar features. It is much easier to tweak the "Advanced MCACC" than the basic version. I have not even been able to view what the 503 did as far as equalization or channel levels on the Data Check, the only thing it shows after calibration is speaker distances, no EQ levels or speaker levels after calibration. On my 1222 I could view all the EQ curves and levels set by MCACC, even export them to a PC.

Actually, if you go into the "Data Check" it does show you everything outside of the EQ curves, including distances, channel levels and crossover settings. For some reason they hide the EQ curves applied, but so does Onkyo.

Last edited by dbphelps; 03-10-2019 at 06:48 AM.
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post #6739 of 6817 Old 03-11-2019, 06:11 AM
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I didn't see channel levels, and I know what my crossover is set at as I selected that manually. I would like to see the EQ curves though. All in all, not that impressed with the new Onkyo owned Pioneer. Shame that they put such a basic, featureless version of MCACC on their Elite receivers. I guess they did away with the Advanced version and only have basic and Pro now. It is my fault for not doing more research, but that doesn't make the $1000 receiver that is several steps back from my previous non-elites any more palatable.
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post #6740 of 6817 Old 03-11-2019, 10:17 PM
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Just because they don't expose what EQ changes were made makes it any less effective in shaping the sound and providing a reference sound field.

Quite frankly I would have to imagine that the majority of users want a "set it and forget it" situation. The tweakers are the minority in this age of "slam it to the masses" product view.

My biggest issue is the whole Large/Small options as the only options for the crossovers. All of the Onkyo receivers allow for individual crossover points per location pair (fronts/center/surrounds/rears/heights), yet the pioneers only get a Large (full range) and Small (whatever the subwoofer crossover point is)???

But, the Pioneers get a "Pure Direct" output mode which I, personally, much prefer over the "Direct" mode. It still uses the crossover, levels and double-bass settings in "Pure Direct", but it gets rid of all the EQing, time-alignment and standing wave corrections. Makes having a dual purpose theater/music setup that much easier to accomplish. That is if you prefer having all of that stuff turned off for pure stereo listening enjoyment.
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post #6741 of 6817 Old 03-12-2019, 06:37 AM
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Hopefully this is OK to post here, but am looking at the VSX-933 and was wondering if the zone 2 L/R line outs play only the front L/R signal? or does it combine all channels to 2 channel stereo.....Have nice big Carver "cube" amp 200watts/channel that I want to power my Maggies in a 5.1 setup. I just don't think the L/R of the main can power these good enough. Or do I have to get a receiver like the VSX-503 with installed preouts for the front L/R already there....All I want to do is make use of my Carver for the front L/R.... Any ideas
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post #6742 of 6817 Old 03-13-2019, 06:54 AM
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Yeah, I see the "set it and forget it" as dumbing it down. They give access to EQ settings so that users can tweak the sound, but how do you tweak it after calibration if you don't know what the calibration did. Kinda half-assed if you ask me. They removed X-Curve which was very useful for taming bright calibrations, and easier than trying to tweak separate speakers in the EQ. Believe it or not, being able to select the MCACC sampling timing had a big effect on the results, good for tuning the sound as well.

I do not have a problem with a global crossover, I think it avoids more problems than it creates. My subwoofers cover everything from 15hz to 80hz and I don't think I am missing anything. My original NHT Super Two mains, Super One center and surrounds are certainly capable of going lower than 80hz but the subs do it much better, so no big deal there. I don't get why everyone is worried about an extra 20hz from their center or surrounds when the subs have it covered. You don't get cancellation of bass frequencies either when they are coming only from the subs, which is why I avoid double bass settings as well.

I should have gotten the 701, but it wasn't in the budget. If I had waited until it was in the budget, I would have gotten nothing from Onkyo for my dead 1222. Catch 22. I will live with the 503 for a while, it doesn't sound horrible but definitely not what I was expecting. If I could afford it I would buy Anthem now that Pioneer is a shadow of its former self.


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post #6743 of 6817 Old 03-13-2019, 07:23 AM
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The whole idea behind MCACC now is that when it is done everything is basically "flat" in response. So, from there you can apply whatever EQ to shape the sound to your liking.

My Klipsch RF-82 towers sound great with no correction/EQ and I prefer their sound without any of it, but after calibration they sound quite "thin", overly "bright" and less than ideal. So I must go in and add EQ to get the sound I want. Kinda kills the whole idea of buying really nice sounding speakers from the get-go. Honestly, with calibrations and such, people should be looking for the most linear speakers as volume increases and choose those since you need to EQ everything from "flat" anyways.

I believe I saw a setting that is basically a replacement for what you called X-Curve, in that the description for the new setting mentions it reduces highs to remove too much near-field brightness experienced in home theaters compared to larger theaters where you are sitting quite a bit further away from the speakers.

The issue with the global crossover is not about having "more" coverage for certain frequencies, but to have proper representation of those frequencies based on room acoustics. I have zero doubt that in certain configurations any number of frequencies "fall out" of available range to "fix" them, in that certain frequencies from the subs are "lost" in any given room and having those frequencies come from other speakers helps "fill in" those vacancies. For example I have a "hole" in the sounds my subs produce based on their location (yeah, yeah, I have to play around with placement more, but in certain cases, you are stuck with what you have based on room aesthetics as well), and if I set my mains as "large" that hole is filled in.

I also installed the remote app and it allows for all changes to be made via app as well as the receiver. It also works not only with the VSX-LX503, but also my Onkyo TX-NR787.

Sound wise, with "Pure Direct" I love the sound of the Pioneer. I just need to figure out the proper EQ settings to get the speakers "back" to sounding that way after calibration. That is the part that is going to suck. I wonder if there is a quick setting to just remove MCACC calibration EQ'ing while leaving in place standing wave corrections and time alignment?
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post #6744 of 6817 Old 03-13-2019, 08:47 AM
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I would have gotten nothing from Onkyo for my dead 1222. Catch 22.
You still haven't explained that.

They offered what? Straight swap for the 503?
Did you ask for something else? The 701 specifically?

$600 difference in list price. I'd expect an offer of ~$300 more.
A replacement 1222 could be found for $550 or less.

Your 503 is still new. Maybe you could sell it and just get another 1222.
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post #6745 of 6817 Old 03-13-2019, 08:54 AM
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The 503 was offered at a discount on the UE22 error trade in for $599. I could have gotten the 701 but that would have cost me $1000 out of pocket and that amount was not in my budget. I had 30 days from the date the letter sent from Onkyo to take the offer or it expired. ALL the 1222's would have eventually had the same issue mine did, it was a manufacturing defect with bad DSP chips, they were repairing them at one point but no more parts are available. Basically the only thing available new with warranty that I could afford at the time was the 503 at discount. If I had waited to save the money for the 701 the discount offer would have expired.

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post #6746 of 6817 Old 03-13-2019, 09:00 AM
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I also use an Anti-Mode 8033 to EQ my subs, another reason why I didn't think I needed the 701 at the time. Then I learned that they now put the basic MCACC on Elite receivers.


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post #6747 of 6817 Old 03-13-2019, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphelps View Post
The whole idea behind MCACC now is that when it is done everything is basically "flat" in response. So, from there you can apply whatever EQ to shape the sound to your liking.



My Klipsch RF-82 towers sound great with no correction/EQ and I prefer their sound without any of it, but after calibration they sound quite "thin", overly "bright" and less than ideal. So I must go in and add EQ to get the sound I want. Kinda kills the whole idea of buying really nice sounding speakers from the get-go. Honestly, with calibrations and such, people should be looking for the most linear speakers as volume increases and choose those since you need to EQ everything from "flat" anyways.
So you don't like hearing what the production team wanted you to hear?

It'd really suck if every theater set the sound different Instead of using a flat setting. One would have great bass and another Over powering bass and shrill highs.

I like having my reproduction true to what was produced. No, not everything sounds great to me but it sounds like what the producers wanted me to hear.

When I go to a live I hear the balance the conductor and performers want. I can't eq that to my preference.

In my teens I tweaked eq for my preference (to much bass usually). Then I grew up and wanted to hear what was intended instead. They spent a lot of time during production to get the final cut sounding a certain way. Who am I to think I know better than them.


As for your results after calibration, sounds like a mic placement issue. The high frequency results are particularly sensitive to mic positioning.
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post #6748 of 6817 Old 03-13-2019, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SRussell View Post
The 503 was offered at a discount on the UE22 error trade in for $599. I could have gotten the 701 but that would have cost me $1000 out of pocket and that amount was not in my budget.
Ouch. Not a great deal. I've seen new 503's and 701s for that without any credit for the old unit.

I've also seen used Anthems for $600 and would buy them. But my analog need would take and x00 while my 4k/HDMI needs require a x20 (which doesn't have the analog I need, not to mention price). I was trying to find a path forward when mine broke and the warranty company replaced with the LX701. I'd still like to go back, just too many issues now.
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post #6749 of 6817 Old 03-13-2019, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SRussell View Post
I also use an Anti-Mode 8033 to EQ my subs, another reason why I didn't think I needed the 701 at the time. Then I learned that they now put the basic MCACC on Elite receivers.
Actually, if you look at the labels for the various parts of the MCACC calibration, they actually use the "Pro" module for EQ/phase.

What you are looking for doesn't exist anymore. The whole "new" MCACC is nothing like the old one. Two totally different animals.

Just like the Onkyo calibration isn't labeled MCACC, but it includes all the features (and a few extra like variable crossover points per speaker set) that the Pioneers offer.

From a product standpoint that only makes sense... Put the same decoder/video section in all your receivers and just change the amplifier section and a few features to justify having Onkyo as the "more premium" product compared to the Pioneer Elite within the same feature-set.

The Onkyo TX-RZ830 is basically the same as the Pioneer Elite VSX-LX503 with just a few software changes. But, ultimately, they have identical hardware outside of a few extra ports (IR and Trigger) on the Pioneer and a few more inputs (line-ins) on the Onkyo.
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post #6750 of 6817 Old 03-13-2019, 05:46 PM
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ST Dog, I was just pointing out that peoples whole "psycho-acoustic" view of older Onkyo/Marantz/Denon stuff was primarily based on them listening without calibrations, or if it was with calibrated settings, it was showing the flaws in their calibration vs "flat".

A lot of people have talked about certain receivers having a certain "sound", when in reality the difference is that newer receivers have much better processing and better calibration systems which produce a truly "flat" output. They are just not used to hearing "flat".

In regards to my own setup, I like the laid-back midrange and lower ends of the high range, the bright and forward upper highs, and the more pronounced midbass/bass articulation that has real punch and body with the Klipsch Reference IV series of speakers has naturally. Like I mentioned, I don't mind them being "flat" for movies, even concert videos have enough emphasis in all the right places to use a "flat" setting for playback to be enjoyable. But in regards to straight up stereo audio playback I much prefer the unmolested sound of the Ref IVs via the "Pure Direct" mode. It makes all the difference in being able to enjoy music the way they speakers were designed to reproduce sound.

And, yes, that is recognizing that a lot of people also like the "sound" of the Klipsch Reference speakers, which is NOT "flat" by design. The imaging is amazing because they tweaked the sound of their speakers in a way that a lot of people really enjoy.

Call it the difference of people that like to listen to sterile music in a listening room and those that want to rock it out at a concert. The Klipsch speakers are the concert-goers of the speaker world in that regard, and most rock concerts are really bright, laid back mids, accentuated mid-bass and solid bass that slams you physically.

In my car setups I shoot for setting up the system to be "flat", but then I EQ in what I desire the sound to be. Then again, I don't watch movies in the car.

Which is really the point. For movies a calibrated, "flat" sound is ideal to enjoy what they expect you to experience. That is a completely different experience than what you have when listening to stereo music. That is why, for me, "Pure Direct" makes all the difference.

Oh, and trust me, I am a purist in a lot of things, but I have also learned that everyone has their own tastes, thus we can all have what we want the way we want it. Just like with video reproduction, most of the overly saturated and blown out visuals are what sells newer sets. Most anyone that is used to that and looks at "reference" level on a LCD TV, perfectly tweaked video ends up thinking it is mostly dim and lacking contrast, punch and saturation. Sitting in an almost pitch black theater is a big difference than most people sitting at home watching in their living rooms, especially in the daytime. Same with audio systems.

Last edited by dbphelps; 03-13-2019 at 05:52 PM.
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