Denon X400 or Emotiva UMC-200 & UPA-700 Bundle or NAD T758 or Outlaw Model 975/7075 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 17 Old 12-02-2013, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm thinking about upgrading my ancient HDMI-less Denon receiver to one of these four options. I already have Boston Acoustics VS260 speakers with their center channel and an Outlaw EX sub. I'm not planning on upgrading the speakers anytime soon and will probably add another sub later on but really wanted to upgrade the receiver now by taking advantage of the current sale price (Denon for $899 on Amazon and Emotiva bundle for $799).

I'd like to stay under $1000 if possible and wanted to know which of these options makes the most sense. Audyssey 32 would be the main selling point for me on the Denon but don't know how it compares to the room correction softwares. Right now my HT is setup in an open living room but it would eventually move to a dedicated room about 10 X 20 and I don't listen at reference levels. Would appreciate any input, thanks!
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post #2 of 17 Old 12-02-2013, 09:54 AM
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The x4000 all the way. Not buggy, has room correction that is superb, reliable firmware updates.

Did you know emo q won't eq the rear surrounds in a 7 channel set up? And this is a feature. :eyeroll:
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post #3 of 17 Old 12-02-2013, 10:42 AM
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I would also suggest the Denon X4000 over the other choices. I made a few changes in my room so I recalibrated with XT32 (4311) and it does such an excellent job in my room! I've been listening to a bunch of multichannel music and the SQ is great smile.gif.

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post #4 of 17 Old 12-02-2013, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

The x4000 all the way. Not buggy, has room correction that is superb, reliable firmware updates.

Did you know emo q won't eq the rear surrounds in a 7 channel set up? And this is a feature. :eyeroll:

No eq for rear surrounds would be a deal breaker so Emotiva is out.

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I would also suggest the Denon X4000 over the other choices. I made a few changes in my room so I recalibrated with XT32 (4311) and it does such an excellent job in my room! I've been listening to a bunch of multichannel music and the SQ is great smile.gif.

Bill

The X4000 has a lot of features that I'll probably never use, multi-zone audio, 4K etc and that's one of the reasons I was leaning toward NAD T758 because they advertise it as a no frills receiver without any "fluff" where you pay for the quality of the components and not features. I'm sure even in a double blind randomized controlled trial it would be hard (for me) to tell a difference between these receivers based on SQ, but I want to get the best SQ for the buck without paying for features I wouldn't use.
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post #5 of 17 Old 12-02-2013, 01:30 PM
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^^^ if that NAD had xt32 then it would be a great unit to get. Since it doesn't, none of the magic superior sound quality marketing claims will make it sound better then the x4000.

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post #6 of 17 Old 12-02-2013, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by hashmanx View Post

The X4000 has a lot of features that I'll probably never use, multi-zone audio, 4K etc and that's one of the reasons I was leaning toward NAD T758 because they advertise it as a no frills receiver without any "fluff" where you pay for the quality of the components and not features. I'm sure even in a double blind randomized controlled trial it would be hard (for me) to tell a difference between these receivers based on SQ, but I want to get the best SQ for the buck without paying for features I wouldn't use.

I don't use many of the features of the 4311. But I didn't cross the 4311 of my list because it has features I'll never use. If the X4000 costs less than the T758 and the SQ is comparable then why take it off your list because it has features you might never use. You never know somewhere down the line multi zone audio or 4K video might be features that come in handy.

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post #7 of 17 Old 12-02-2013, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

^^^ if that NAD had xt32 then it would be a great unit to get. Since it doesn't, none of the magic superior sound quality marketing claims will make it sound better then the x4000.

I guess I'm underestimating the importance of having XT32 in a receiver. None of the NAD's seem to have XT32, not even the NAD T787 priced at $4000! I guess that's out too, along with the Outlaw because of the lack of Audyssey.
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I don't use many of the features of the 4311. But I didn't cross the 4311 of my list because it has features I'll never use. If the X4000 costs less than the T758 and the SQ is comparable then why take it off your list because it has features you might never use. You never know somewhere down the line multi zone audio or 4K video might be features that come in handy.

Bill

At this price point I don't think I'd be able to find a receiver with XT32 and none of the features I don't/won't use.

X4000 is now the front runner in my list. How does it compare to Onkyo 818 or Onkyo 929 which has better features at a similar price point?
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post #8 of 17 Old 12-02-2013, 05:44 PM
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The 818 and 929 are decent enough and are comparable for the most part to the x4000. The thing they lack though is the ability to eq multiple subs separately. The will eq multiple subs as one unit. The x4000 and all the denons with xt32 also are equipped with what audyssey calls subeq, which will eq multiple subs (I believe up to 2 subs) as separate units.

Fwiw there is nothing inherently wrong with non audessey xt32 (or equivalent higher end room eq) avrs, its just that the uber costly ones won't allow you to optimize the system to your room in the way xt32 (and equivalent higher end eq) can. This is very important to the overall end product sound quality, even more so in untreated non dedicated rooms. If eq is not an important feature to you for whatever reason, there is no reason not to get the other avr of choice. Personally I would only get an avr at this point that is equipped with xt32, anthems arc, dirac (pending emo processor coming with this) or tact room eq.

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post #9 of 17 Old 12-03-2013, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

subeq, which will eq multiple subs (I believe up to 2 subs) as separate units.

Subs are equalized as one. Only level and delay is matched separately.
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post #10 of 17 Old 12-03-2013, 01:58 AM
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^^^ thanks for correction/clarification.

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post #11 of 17 Old 12-07-2013, 05:28 AM
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Hi, I would say go to a dealer and listen to them. I went and listened to Anthem, Marantz Denon and NAD. Anthem MRX300, NAD 748 and 758 and the Marantz 7007 and Denon X4000 and the Anthem sounded the best then the NAD. Marantz wast third and then Denon smile.gif If you check with a local dealer u should be able to get one at a good price since the new models are coming out and should put it under the 1k mark easily. The ARC room correction is really neat. The way the Dealer had them was neat since he could change the receiver so u could listen to the differences and u can really tell.
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post #12 of 17 Old 12-07-2013, 08:31 AM
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Just be advised that not everyone likes what audessey does. You have to like it or turn it off. There is no end user control.

It's great if you like the results and a waste of money if you don't.

And as you've noticed there are a lot of avrs that don't have it. Many of them high end with great sound.

So don't be so quick to dismiss non XT32 avrs. It's not a panacea for all audio issues.

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post #13 of 17 Old 12-07-2013, 08:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Just be advised that not everyone likes what audessey does. You have to like it or turn it off. There is no end user control.

It's great if you like the results and a waste of money if you don't.

And as you've noticed there are a lot of avrs that don't have it. Many of them high end with great sound.

So don't be so quick to dismiss non XT32 avrs. It's not a panacea for all audio issues.

If you have done the Audyssey program properly, it will give excellent results of a much more balanced, flat frequency response which is what you hear in a professionally calibrated movie theater.  But to do it properly, you MUST have the Audyssey mic on a stand.  I bought a cheap camera tripod for $10 at a discount goods store(I've been told that a proper mic stand is best).  Then, you MUST turn off any noise sources in or close by the room.  For me, I ensured that my furnace and fridge would not kick on while running Audyssey by turning down the heat, and turning up the temp in the fridge.  No ice maker on either!  Another noise source for me was a clock in the room that ticks loudly, and the quiet fans on top of my amp.

 

If one doesn't care for the results, then maybe you don't care for the results in a movie theater either, but they are industry spec, and generally accepted to be the best calibration to listen to movies with.  So I would suggest that maybe one's tastes are off and could be adjusted if accuracy in sound is a priority, so give it a couple of weeks with Audyssey to acclimatize yourself to the new better different sound.  People don't like to hear that they might be wrong, and this is not an attempted slight, but we all can learn and gain new knowledge, that's what this forum is all about.

 

I'm sure Yamaha and Pioneer's room correction systems are good too, let's remember these are organizations that are dedicated to good audio and people that have dedicated their lives to their passion of audio excellence.

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post #14 of 17 Old 12-07-2013, 09:09 AM
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Audessey's goal is to try a flatten or EQ the sound to a pre subscribed "form" that May or may not be beneficial to your speakers in your room.
99.9% of users don't have a movie theater fir a room.
And what exactly is Audessey's version of flat and accurate? No one knows. It remains hidden behind a non adjustable interface.
Again it's not for everyone and it's not fool proof or even desired in many applications.

It certainly is not the only reason for purchase of an AVR.

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post #15 of 17 Old 12-07-2013, 09:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Audessey's goal is to try a flatten or EQ the sound to a pre subscribed "form" that May or may not be beneficial to your speakers in your room.
99.9% of users don't have a movie theater fir a room.
And what exactly is Audessey's version of flat and accurate? No one knows. It remains hidden behind a non adjustable interface.
Again it's not for everyone and it's not fool proof or even desired in many applications.

It certainly is not the only reason for purchase of an AVR.

It's not a form.  It's not a version of flat.  Flat is flat.  Whether you like flat or not is the issue.  

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post #16 of 17 Old 12-07-2013, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

It remains hidden behind a non adjustable interface.
Again it's not for everyone and it's not fool proof or even desired in many applications.

It certainly is not the only reason for purchase of an AVR.

Audyssey Pro is user adjustable. Although Pro is only available in the more expensive AVRs and prepros. Pro also requires a license and a Pro kit which is not cheap. True that Audyssey or many room correction systems are not for everyone. But many have tried it and dismissed the results after not doing a proper calibration which audio4life pointed out.

Bill

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post #17 of 17 Old 12-07-2013, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post

It's not a form.  It's not a version of flat.  Flat is flat.  Whether you like flat or not is the issue.  

It is a version of flat. Audyssey seems to optimize the steady state response. It lumps together direct sound and reflections. The question is if this is what we perceive.
A good paper on that topic is http://www.dirac.se/media/12044/on_room_correction.pdf

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