Can I please have some advice from the community about my next AVR? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 17 Old 01-13-2014, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi there,

This is my first post so I'd like to start by saying thanks to all the members who take time and energy to answer questions and share knowledge. This seems like a community fully of very informed people!

 

Back in 2006 I came into a little money and, completely new to the home theater game, decided the smart thing to do with some of that money would be to invest in a respectable home theater setup. A friend of mine took me to the local hifi store and I auditioned a plethora of different speaker / avr combinations using a variety of music and movie selections. The salesman had an interesting approach where he asked me to close my eyes and listen to a bunch of comparisons. As I told him which sound I liked most, he drilled down by process of elimination which combo seemed to suit me bestt. The result ended up being the following:

 

AVR: Denon AVR 2807

Front L/R: Bowers and Wilkins DM 602 S3

Surround L/R: Bowers and Wilkins DM 600 S3

Center: Bowers and Wilkins LCR60 S3

Sub: Bowers and Wilkin: ASW300

 

I love the sound my Denon receiver produces. It's rich and detailed and the amp itself feels like it's built to last. It weighs about 25lbs and the front panel is aluminum and it just feels like a quality product. I also paid about $1500 for it at the time. And although I've never had a problem with it, it only has 2 hdmi inputs and so I am looking to upgrade. The question I have is do I need to buy another AVR in the same price range to enjoy the same kind of sound and build quality? I don't have a second zone and I am not planning on turning my system into a 7.1 setup. I don't have a turn table and I think, for my uses, I don't need a boatload of legacy connections. Really all I use the receiver for is movies (Xbox steaming, Blu-Ray, TiVo and soon Roku 3 or Apple TV), music and gaming in one 12x17 room, at low to moderate volume levels. I'm interested in a receiver with ethernet but don't care about wifi since my router is set up right next to where the receiver sits and I tend to feel like a wired connection is better anyways. I've been doing exhaustive research on which receiver I should upgrade to and have come up with the following:

 

Denon AVR-X2000

Denon AVR-X3000

Yamaha 675

Pioneer SX-70

Sony STRDN1040

 

The challenge is that all these boxes seem to have one reported issue or another. Either hissing issues with Dolby Digital Plus and Netflix with Denon, HDMI handshake issues with Sony, scathing comments about the Pioneer's sound and complaints that the 675 is too weak... I'm getting frustrated because every time I think I've made a choice, I read something that makes me think otherwise. Has anyone been in a position where they've had to "downgrade" in terms of their next equipment choice and ended up feeling like they actually got something better for less money? If so I'd love to hear your story.

 

Any insights the community might be open to sharing on their experiences and recommendations would be really appreciated.

 

Thanks so much.

 

buck

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post #2 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 12:01 AM
 
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Welcome to modern electronics on the internet....you'll always find someone who has something going wrong somewhere. smile.gif

I'd look for a unit with the features/connectivity to suit my current needs and perhaps looking forward a bit; one of the best features these day is room correction software unless you're setup to do your calibrations yourself; personally I'd look for Audyssey XT32 (you'd need to go upstream from the X3000 to the X4000). The other brands use their own (Pioneer-MCACC, Yamaha-YPAO, think Sony has finally jumped on the bandwagon but don't know what they call theirs). Marantz and Onkyo receivers also offer Audyssey. Good room correction will help you maximize your speakers (which is what is doing the sounding good for the most part aside from your room's influence). Personally if I were shopping now I'd probably look at the Denon.
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post #3 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 12:26 AM
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Denon is good. IMO Yamaha is better built. I've owned them all.

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post #4 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 03:54 AM
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First note that the DD+ issues with Netflix is a result of revisions made by Netflix to the DD+ encoding they use and is an issue with multiple brands of AVRs to include Denon. Second, what country are you from as the MSRP of the 2807CI in the USA was only $1100 USD and you can pay as little as $450 USD MSRP for comparable audio quality as your 2807 going with the Denon X1000.
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post #5 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 07:58 AM
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I would step up all the way to X-4000 to get the MultiEQ XT32.
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post #6 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 08:22 AM
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Your speakers need a lot of peak drive current. Most receivers are not designed to drive that kind of load at peak volumes.

IMO you will get the best sound quality with either the Cambridge Audio 651R receiver or the NAD T777.

They have better-designed amplifiers and power supplies than anything from Denon.

I would NEVER recommend an AVR from Pioneer, Sony, or Yamaha; not the best sound or value.

Note that NONE of the Japanese receivers actually give an honest RMS power rating for their amplifiers with ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN!

In other words, they dance around the issue of what their receivers REALLY put out under REAL conditions. They do everything they can to be deceptive.

NAD and Cambridge Audio are the only ones that give real power ratings.

Anyone who thinks they can get a receiver that can drive those speakers well for under $1000 is living in a fantasy world.

You don't get 5 or 7 good amplifiers with an adequate power supply until you get WAY over $1000.

A good 2-channel 150-watt power amplifier costs $2000 or more by itself.
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post #7 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Your speakers need a lot of peak drive current. Most receivers are not designed to drive that kind of load at peak volumes.

IMO you will get the best sound quality with either the Cambridge Audio 651R receiver or the NAD T777.

They have better-designed amplifiers and power supplies than anything from Denon.

I would NEVER recommend an AVR from Pioneer, Sony, or Yamaha; not the best sound or value.

Note that NONE of the Japanese receivers actually give an honest RMS power rating for their amplifiers with ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN!

In other words, they dance around the issue of what their receivers REALLY put out under REAL conditions. They do everything they can to be deceptive.

NAD and Cambridge Audio are the only ones that give real power ratings.

Both theses amp suggestion doesn't have any decent room correction which is a shame considering that is greatly improve sound quality. My suggestion would be Anthem MX510 if you want to go in the more expensive route.
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post #8 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 08:38 AM
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Getting the latest gee-whiz room correction software is no substitute for sound engineering of the amplifiers in the first place.

You can't turn a Ford Fiesta into a Corvette with the fanciest set of racing stripes. The engine is a few hundred horsepower short, and the handling is pathetic.

Besides, the NAD 777 comes with Audessy MultiEQ XL, and the 651R comes with Audessy 2EQ, which do a very good job of setup.

Anthem receivers have come up pathetically short on power when tested by independent testers, such as Home Theater magazine. Anthem is the most overpriced junk on the market IMO.

Anyone who contemplates buying an Anthem AVR needs to go to the Anthem owners' thread and read the horror stories from some VERY unhappy owners!

IMO Anthem builds a crummy $600 receiver and puts on a few extra bells and whistles and a $3000 price tag (and then they give no product support).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Symtex View Post

Both theses amp suggestion doesn't have any decent room correction which is a shame considering that is greatly improve sound quality. My suggestion would be Anthem MX510 if you want to go in the more expensive route.
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post #9 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Getting the latest room correction software is no substitute for sound engineering of the amplifiers in the first place.

You can't turn a Ford Fiesta into a Corvette with the fanciest set of racing stripes. The engine is a few hundred horsepower short.

Besides, the NAD 777 comes with Audessy MultiEQ XL, and the 651R comes with Audessy 2EQ, which do a very good job of setup.

Anthem receivers have come up pathetically short on power when tested by independent testers, such as Home Theater magazine. Anthem is the most overpriced junk on the market IMO.

Anyone who contemplates buying an Anthem AVR needs to go to the Anthem owners' thread and read the horror stories from some VERY unhappy owners!

IMO Anthem builds a crummy $600 receiver and puts on a few extra bells and whistles and a $3000 price tag.

I have to be honest with you. I had many of the Japanese AVR (Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer elite) and the Pioneer elite is by far the best AVR I ever owned. I had 2 of them in my lifetime and they never disappointed me. I know you are a Cambridge fanboy but your hatred for Japanese made AVR is unjustify. I've talk with many A/V expert who sells really high gear and the difference between the flagship series of Denon, Marantz or Pioneer Elite is almost nonexistent when it comes to watching movies. The difference can become more apparent once you do 2ch audio but you really need high end speaker and an a much bigger investment in terms of gear to get to that next level.
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post #10 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 08:57 AM
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I think you need to go back and carefully read the original post; it appears that you did not do so.

The speakers being used by the OP DO represent a large investment in high-quality speakers with a relatively low impedance, which is WHY I think he needs a NAD or Cambridge Audio AVR to realize the potential of his speakers.

I do not HATE cheap Japanese receivers. I just think that a lot of people do not realize how limited they are when it comes to driving 5 or more real-world speakers.

I think it is amazing that they can build anything useful for those ridiculously low prices, but one needs to be realistic about what they are and how limited they are.

Your receiver apparently does a good job of driving YOUR speakers, but the ones I recommended are what HE needs for HIS speakers, in my opinion.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Symtex View Post

I have to be honest with you. I had many of the Japanese AVR (Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer elite) and the Pioneer elite is by far the best AVR I ever owned. I had 2 of them in my lifetime and they never disappointed me. I know you are a Cambridge fanboy but your hatred for Japanese made AVR is unjustify. I've talk with many A/V expert who sells really high gear and the difference between the flagship series of Denon, Marantz or Pioneer Elite is almost nonexistent when it comes to watching movies. The difference can become more apparent once you do 2ch audio but you really need high end speaker and an a much bigger investment in terms of gear to get to that next level.
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post #11 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I think you need to go back and carefully read the original post; it appears that you did not do so.

The speakers being used by the OP DO represent a large investment in high-quality speakers, which is WHY I think he needs a NAD or Cambridge Audio AVR to realize the potential of his speakers.

I do not HATE cheap Japanese receivers. I just think that a lot of people do not realize how limited they are when it comes to driving 5 or more real-world speakers.

I think it is amazing that they can build anything useful for those ridiculously low prices, but one needs to be realistic about what they are and how limited they are.

Well a pioneer elite is in the ~2k range so it's not cheap japanese hardware like you are implying too and it does sounds amazing. Compare to my previous Denon, the difference was night and day.
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post #12 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 09:07 AM
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I don't know if your receiver would do a good job of driving the B & W speakers or not.

My experience has been that, at a given price point, a typical Japanese receiver has less capable amplifiers and more bells and whistles.

Cambridge and NAD seem to put more of the money into better engineering of the power supply and amplifiers, and a few less bells and whistles.

You just have to decide which things are more important; the fundamentals or the fluff.
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Originally Posted by Symtex View Post

Well a pioneer elite is in the ~2k range so it's not cheap japanese hardware like you are implying too and it does sounds amazing. Compare to my previous Denon, the difference was night and day.
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post #13 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I don't know if your receiver would do a good job of driving the B & W speakers or not.

My experience has been that, at a given price point, a typical Japanese receiver has less capable amplifiers and more bells and whistles.

Cambridge and NAD seem to put more of the money into better engineering of the power supply and amplifiers, and a few less bells and whistles.

You just have to decide which things are more important; the fundamentals or the fluff.

I am sorry to tell you but since you are obviously bias toward Cambridge (AVS post history) that its almost impossible to believe any crap you say. I even saw you posting crap about Anthem which is probably one of the better AVR receiver on the market in their price range. The demand is so high that it was back order at my local dealer. It goes great review across the board by all professional reviewers. Same things goes for the Pioneer elite I own. Although, I understand your preferences for Cambridge, don't mind if I am skeptical of any other crap you say around here.

The truth is most A/V receiver flagship model will give you a great value and great sound. Whether you choose Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Anthem or Pioneer elite, they are all good choice. I would stay away from Onkyo but that's just base on my personal experience with their product. Room treatment is probably what will give you the most sound improvement. Anything else is just preferences.
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post #14 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 09:23 AM
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All you have to do is read the reviews in Home Theater magazine to find out how badly the Anthem amplifiers have measured.

All you have to do is read the Anthem owners' thread to find out about all of their problems and owner unhappiness. If you want to hide from reality and live in some fantasy world where Anthem supposedly is good, that is not my problem.

If I like Cambridge AVRs,whose sound quality has received great praise from virtually all reviewers, and don't like Anthem , which is disliked by many of its own owners, maybe I just know what I am talking about. It could be that my opinion is based on the facts of the matter.

And if you prefer the latest room correction software to a fundamentally good-sounding AVR, I can only say that I regard that as a very poor choice that is unwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Symtex View Post

I am sorry to tell you but since you are obviously bias toward Cambridge (AVS post history) that its almost impossible to believe any crap you say. I even saw you posting crap about Anthem which is probably one of the better AVR receiver on the market in their price range. The demand is so high that it was back order at my local dealer. It goes great review across the board by all professional reviewers. Same things goes for the Pioneer elite I own. Although, I understand your preferences for Cambridge, don't mind if I am skeptical of any other crap you say around here.

The truth is most A/V receiver flagship model will give you a great value and great sound. Whether you choose Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Anthem or Pioneer elite, they are all good choice. I would stay away from Onkyo but that's just base on my personal experience with their product. Room treatment is probably what will give you the most sound improvement. Anything else is just preferences.
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post #15 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

All you have to do is read the reviews in Home Theater magazine to find out how badly the Anthem amplifiers have measured.

All you have to do is read the Anthem owners' thread to find out about all of their problems and owner unhappiness. If you want to hide from reality and live in some fantasy world where Anthem supposedly is good, that is not my problem.

If I like Cambridge AVRs,whose sound quality has received great praise from virtually all reviewers, and don't like Anthem , which is disliked by many of its own owners, maybe I just know what I am talking about. It could be that my opinion is based on the facts of the matter.

And if you prefer the latest room correction software to a fundamentally good-sounding AVR, I can only say that I regard that as a very poor choice that is unwise.

Yeah, pioneer elite is only about bell and whistle and not sound quality....right..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX0N0aJjW-s

Note : the point is not about the certification itself but about the principle that any audio company wants to make the best possible receiver with the best audio quality. You think because it has more features that its less about sound quality. This is the wrong assumption. It just mean it has more features. It doesn't mean their goal was crappy sound with features.
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post #16 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

All you have to do is read the reviews in Home Theater magazine to find out how badly the Anthem amplifiers have measured.

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1502324/anthem-mrx-510-or-cambridge-audio-651r-with-anti-mode-8033-cinema#post_24198037
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post #17 of 17 Old 01-14-2014, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckwilde View Post
 

Hi there,

This is my first post so I'd like to start by saying thanks to all the members who take time and energy to answer questions and share knowledge. This seems like a community fully of very informed people!

 

Back in 2006 I came into a little money and, completely new to the home theater game, decided the smart thing to do with some of that money would be to invest in a respectable home theater setup. A friend of mine took me to the local hifi store and I auditioned a plethora of different speaker / avr combinations using a variety of music and movie selections. The salesman had an interesting approach where he asked me to close my eyes and listen to a bunch of comparisons. As I told him which sound I liked most, he drilled down by process of elimination which combo seemed to suit me bestt. The result ended up being the following:

 

AVR: Denon AVR 2807

Front L/R: Bowers and Wilkins DM 602 S3

Surround L/R: Bowers and Wilkins DM 600 S3

Center: Bowers and Wilkins LCR60 S3

Sub: Bowers and Wilkin: ASW300

 

I love the sound my Denon receiver produces. It's rich and detailed and the amp itself feels like it's built to last. It weighs about 25lbs and the front panel is aluminum and it just feels like a quality product. I also paid about $1500 for it at the time. And although I've never had a problem with it, it only has 2 hdmi inputs and so I am looking to upgrade. The question I have is do I need to buy another AVR in the same price range to enjoy the same kind of sound and build quality? I don't have a second zone and I am not planning on turning my system into a 7.1 setup. I don't have a turn table and I think, for my uses, I don't need a boatload of legacy connections. Really all I use the receiver for is movies (Xbox steaming, Blu-Ray, TiVo and soon Roku 3 or Apple TV), music and gaming in one 12x17 room, at low to moderate volume levels. I'm interested in a receiver with ethernet but don't care about wifi since my router is set up right next to where the receiver sits and I tend to feel like a wired connection is better anyways. I've been doing exhaustive research on which receiver I should upgrade to and have come up with the following:

 

Denon AVR-X2000

Denon AVR-X3000

Yamaha 675

Pioneer SX-70

Sony STRDN1040

 

The challenge is that all these boxes seem to have one reported issue or another. Either hissing issues with Dolby Digital Plus and Netflix with Denon, HDMI handshake issues with Sony, scathing comments about the Pioneer's sound and complaints that the 675 is too weak... I'm getting frustrated because every time I think I've made a choice, I read something that makes me think otherwise. Has anyone been in a position where they've had to "downgrade" in terms of their next equipment choice and ended up feeling like they actually got something better for less money? If so I'd love to hear your story.

 

Any insights the community might be open to sharing on their experiences and recommendations would be really appreciated.

 

Thanks so much.

 

buck

 

If your only important issue is not enough HDMI inputs, you can save yourself a lot of money by just buying an HDMI switch box.  Some of them automatically switch between inputs to whichever is on at the time (that feature only works properly if the devices hooked up to it do not always have their HDMI outputs "on" even when the device is off).  You don't even need to spend $20 to effectively add two HDMI inputs (as a unit with 3 inputs plugs its output into one of your inputs, giving you only two more than the two you have now).   That is what I recommend that you do.

 

 

If you want to buy a new receiver anyway, read on.

 

If you want the same build quality as what you have now, yes, you will likely have to spend in the neighborhood of what you spent before.  However, build quality and sound and picture quality are not the same thing.  For example, the last VCR I bought was the least sturdy of all of them I ever owned and it looked like a piece of garbage (and it was also much, much cheaper than any I had owned previously).  But it gave a better picture quality than any VCR I had ever owned before.  I was stunned by how much better tapes looked, even though the box on my equipment rack really looked like a total piece of garbage.

 

With difficult to drive speakers, the best way is to buy a receiver with preamp outputs and buy a separate power amp (or amps).  That way, you keep the power amp(s) when you change out the receiver in the future, and keep using the same power amps.  So you don't need to worry about how powerful your new model is; just make sure it has preamp outputs and whatever other features you require.

 

As for brands of receivers, I like Yamaha.  They come at a good price, with good feature sets, and, judging from online complaints about various brands, are second to none for reliability.  You can also save money by buying a closeout model, getting a higher model for a given price than you would get with a current model.


God willing, we will prevail in peace and freedom from fear and in true health through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.
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