Denon AVR-X7200W 9.2/11.2ch 2014/2015 Receiver Details- - Page 114 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3391 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by sjchmura View Post
So the 7020 has HDMI 2.0. So Dolby vision but not other hdr modes? Someone else pointed out most HDMI 2.0 is upgradable to 2.0a. Damn. Someone needs a marketing tag to say 2017 future proof


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No you got it wrong. The X7200WA has all is needed for both HDR10 and Dolby Vision. It has HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 with a full bandwidth of 18gb/s, and after the DTS:X upgrade it also supports HDMI 2.0a.

I was just trying to clarify what each HDR format needed. Only HDR10 needs the HDMI 2.0a profile, the one that brings HDR10 compatibility. This HDMI 2.0a profile isn't needed for Dolby Vision, and isn't connected to the higher 18GB/s bandwidth. For example, Sony has implemented the HDMI 2.0a profile (along with HDCP 2.2) in his projectors on old HDMI chipsets with HDMI 1.4 bandwidth (10gb/s).

So if you want full compatibility, what you want is:
- HDMI 2.0 level A bandwidth (18gb/s)
- HDMI 2.0a profile (HDR10 support)
- HDCP 2.2 (commercial 4K content Protection).

The X7200WA has them all after the DTS:X upgrade which add the HDMI 2.0a profile. But that profile isn't needed for Dolby Vision, only HDR10 needs it. Dolby didn't want to wait for HDMI 2.0a to launch its system. It needs hardware support in the source and the display, but no specific support in the AVR, except HDCP 2.2 for the content protection.

HDR10, on the other hand, requires HDMI 2.0a support in every single component in the chain, or the HDR metadata is stripped.

So if you didn't want to upgrade to DTS:X for whatever reason, the X7200WA would support Dolby Vision but not HDR10.

Anyway, if this is too complicated for you, just remember that the X7200WA supports all you need for HDR after the DTS:X f/w upgrade.

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post #3392 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by General Custer View Post
Denon needs to release a receiver that can do 13 channels of processing. Those of us that have wides and want 3D audio would like to add 4 height or ceiling speakers. We shouldn't have to choose between wides and surround backs if we want to add 4 height speakers.


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Sure, that was also my hope until JD crushed it and revealed there will be no replacement for the X7200WA (or the 8802) until the end of 2017.

With the information in mind, you can either keep being frustrated for almost two years, or think about everything else related to wides:

- DSU doesn't support wides at all
- D&M's implementation of DTS:X only supports wides copying the surrounds or using Neural:X to create a phantom signal from the surrounds and fronts. So no wides support for objects in DTS:X.
- There are no wides on the DTS:X test sound track
- If you don't have back surrounds, you can have wides and two pairs of heights in Atmos, DTS:X and Neural:X
- If you do have surrounds back, you can move your surrounds to 90 degrees if they aren't there already, which lessens the gap between the surrounds and the front
- 7.1.4 with TF+TR with the surrounds at 90 degrees is the layout used for near field re-mixing of most if not all consumer content with Atmos or DTS:X.
- Wides brought something with Neo:X or Audyssey before immersive audio.

So I decided to move my surrounds to 90 degrees (they used to be at 110 degrees) and get an X7200WA to enjoy the best there is now at least until the end of 2017. I've kept my wides but I'm not sure I'll use them even if 13+ channels are supported, at until more titles are mixed using a 9.1.4 layout. I like to hear as close as possible to what the mixer heard in the room. When/if that happens, I might move my surrounds back to 110 degrees, but since I moved them to 90 degrees I don't miss my wides, at all.

If it gets replaced at the end of the year, I know I'll never trust JD's source ever again, but for now I'm super happy with my purchase and I'm enjoying Atmos, DTS:X and Auro 3D with one of the best AVRs (if not the best) available previously.

I used to have an X5200W and although I don't know if the improvement in SQ comes from the additional power, the better component, the 32bits ALP or whatever, there is a significant improvement in SQ from the X5200W. Not night and day, the X5200W was no slouch, but I use 7 of the internal power amps to power all my ear level speakers (9 when I use wides), and it seems to make a difference. Could be placebo of course, but the sound feels better, tighter, and at least it doesn't sound worse .

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post #3393 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 03:20 AM
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Did I just brick my 7200WA? I was trying to perform the DTS-X firmware upgrade... And fearing unstable internet connection, I download the firmware file into a USB stick as instructed by the Denon support website. Following the instruction, I pressed STATUS and OPTION simultaneous switch on the power button. Message appears PLEASE WAIT, UPDATE RETRY and goes on forever...
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post #3394 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by sjchmura View Post
So the 7020 has HDMI 2.0. So Dolby vision but not other hdr modes? Someone else pointed out most HDMI 2.0 is upgradable to 2.0a. Damn. Someone needs a marketing tag to say 2017 future proof


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All 2015 Denon AVRs to include the X7200WA feature HDMI 2.0a (HDR) ..... activated with a firmware update which has already been released to the X7200WA on January 28.
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post #3395 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by dannyhgt View Post
Did I just brick my 7200WA? I was trying to perform the DTS-X firmware upgrade... And fearing unstable internet connection, I download the firmware file into a USB stick as instructed by the Denon support website. Following the instruction, I pressed STATUS and OPTION simultaneous switch on the power button. Message appears PLEASE WAIT, UPDATE RETRY and goes on forever...
Did you download the update for the correct model?

There are two available: X7200W (ie. no HDCP 2.2/HDMI 2.0a board installed) and the X7200WA (either upgraded by the factory repair center United Radio or off the factory floor as "WA")

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post #3396 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Did you download the correct update?

There are two available: X7200W (ie. no HDCP 2.2/HDMI 2.0a board installed) and the X7200WA (either upgraded by the factory repair center United Radio or off the factory floor as "WA")
No. It is the DTS-X upgrade to my 7200WA. It is impossible I download the wrong file as I was prompted for my serial number at the Denon website. IS there a way to reset the unit? I tried the factory reset but still did not work.
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post #3397 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 06:45 AM
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No. It is the DTS-X upgrade to my 7200WA. It is impossible I download the wrong file as I was prompted for my serial number at the Denon website. IS there a way to reset the unit? I tried the factory reset but still did not work.
Did you download the X7200W update or the X7200WA update? Doesn't sound like the update has been installed, so simply power off and unplug the AVR for 10 minutes.
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post #3398 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Did you download the X7200W update or the X7200WA update? Doesn't sound like the update has been installed, so simply power off and unplug the AVR for 10 minutes.
It is the 7200WA update. I tried powering off and plug the power chord several times, last time more than 2 hours, but still doesn't work, keep on going back to the message, PLEASE WAIT, UPDATE RETRY. And then finally after a few minutes, CONNECTION FAIL, 0E message will appear.
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post #3399 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by dannyhgt View Post
It is the 7200WA update. I tried powering off and plug the power chord several times, last time more than 2 hours, but still doesn't work, keep on going back to the message, PLEASE WAIT, UPDATE RETRY. And then finally after a few minutes, CONNECTION FAIL, 0E message will appear.
Then you'll have to do a "network reset" by pressing/holding the UP/DOWN arrow buttons on the front panel (while in Standby) and then power on the AVR. Release the UP/DOWN arrow buttons after about 5 seconds. Note doing this reset will also do a microprocessor reset which will return all settings to factory defaults unless you already have a config.dat file backed up to a PC file already that you can LOAD after the update.
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post #3400 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Sure, that was also my hope until JD crushed it and revealed there will be no replacement for the X7200WA (or the 8802) until the end of 2017.

With the information in mind, you can either keep being frustrated for almost two years, or think about everything else related to wides:

- DSU doesn't support wides at all
- D&M's implementation of DTS:X only supports wides copying the surrounds or using Neural:X to create a phantom signal from the surrounds and fronts. So no wides support for objects in DTS:X.
- There are no wides on the DTS:X test sound track
- If you don't have back surrounds, you can have wides and two pairs of heights in Atmos, DTS:X and Neural:X
- If you do have surrounds back, you can move your surrounds to 90 degrees if they aren't there already, which lessens the gap between the surrounds and the front
- 7.1.4 with TF+TR with the surrounds at 90 degrees is the layout used for near field re-mixing of most if not all consumer content with Atmos or DTS:X.
- Wides brought something with Neo:X or Audyssey before immersive audio.

So I decided to move my surrounds to 90 degrees (they used to be at 110 degrees) and get an X7200WA to enjoy the best there is now at least until the end of 2017. I've kept my wides but I'm not sure I'll use them even if 13+ channels are supported, at until more titles are mixed using a 9.1.4 layout. I like to hear as close as possible to what the mixer heard in the room. When/if that happens, I might move my surrounds back to 110 degrees, but since I moved them to 90 degrees I don't miss my wides, at all.

If it gets replaced at the end of the year, I know I'll never trust JD's source ever again, but for now I'm super happy with my purchase and I'm enjoying Atmos, DTS:X and Auro 3D with one of the best AVRs (if not the best) available previously.

I used to have an X5200W and although I don't know if the improvement in SQ comes from the additional power, the better component, the 32bits ALP or whatever, there is a significant improvement in SQ from the X5200W. Not night and day, the X5200W was no slouch, but I use 7 of the internal power amps to power all my ear level speakers (9 when I use wides), and it seems to make a difference. Could be placebo of course, but the sound feels better, tighter, and at least it doesn't sound worse .
Interesting observations on "Front Wides." I have the Denon X5200W and am powering the L/C/R speakers with an Emotiva XPA-3. I've been able to run everything with "ECO On" to keep the receiver cool.

My ultimate configuration would be to add RH and TM to FH & FW. (9.1.6 from 9.1.2) Since I do not have the option of DTS X or Neural X, I'm confined to DTS Neo X and Dolby Atmos with native Atmos content. I debated going "FH/RH" but my MLP is closer to the back wall and the Front Wides covered a sweet spot area that wasn't covered before.

I'm not sure why Denon choose to even have "Front Wides" if Dolby Atmos was the main goal. I guess it was to provide an option since Dolby Atmos does support "FW" - but I'm not sure of this fully treated as an "object" in Atmos and how it's rendered compared to having a "RH" or "TM" instead of the "FW." In other words - - would it sound better with four height speakers versus using FW.

I found the Dolby Atmos version of Everest to be very enveloping when the FW's were engaged. The storm scenes and wind whipping around you made you reach for a blanket. For what it's worth - - DTS Neo X does a great job with most soundtracks. I was watching an older movie, Citizen X (incredible story) and the soundtrack was plain old "Stereo."

DTS Neo X did a real nice job of opening up the sound while maintaining a focus on dialog with the center channel. I would have loved to have the X7200 for DTS X & Neural X but I'm not sure if the bang for the buck is there, especially since I was able to get such a great deal on an X5200W "Open Box" special at Best Buy.

So - are we really saying that 2018 is probably the best guesstimate on a x.x.6 AVR? (At least from Denon or a like manufacturer.) If so, that's at least two years away. And, it might take three to four years to deliver at a price point that is comparable to what we have today.

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post #3401 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Then you'll have to do a "network reset" by pressing/holding the UP/DOWN arrow buttons on the front panel (while in Standby) and then power on the AVR. Release the UP/DOWN arrow buttons after about 5 seconds. Note doing this reset will also do a microprocessor reset which will return all settings to factory defaults unless you already have a config.dat file backed up to a PC file already that you can LOAD after the update.
THANK YOU SIR! It works! Got my AVR back. Now updating through wireless. I think that is a much smaller risk than the USB!
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post #3402 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 08:06 AM
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After all the fuss that u went through... Still ended up with the less reliable way to update.

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post #3403 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
Interesting observations on "Front Wides." I have the Denon X5200W and am powering the L/C/R speakers with an Emotiva XPA-3. I've been able to run everything with "ECO On" to keep the receiver cool.

My ultimate configuration would be to add RH and TM to FH & FW. (9.1.6 from 9.1.2) Since I do not have the option of DTS X or Neural X, I'm confined to DTS Neo X and Dolby Atmos with native Atmos content. I debated going "FH/RH" but my MLP is closer to the back wall and the Front Wides covered a sweet spot area that wasn't covered before.

I'm not sure why Denon choose to even have "Front Wides" if Dolby Atmos was the main goal. I guess it was to provide an option since Dolby Atmos does support "FW" - but I'm not sure of this fully treated as an "object" in Atmos and how it's rendered compared to having a "RH" or "TM" instead of the "FW." In other words - - would it sound better with four height speakers versus using FW.

I found the Dolby Atmos version of Everest to be very enveloping when the FW's were engaged. The storm scenes and wind whipping around you made you reach for a blanket. For what it's worth - - DTS Neo X does a great job with most soundtracks. I was watching an older movie, Citizen X (incredible story) and the soundtrack was plain old "Stereo."

DTS Neo X did a real nice job of opening up the sound while maintaining a focus on dialog with the center channel. I would have loved to have the X7200 for DTS X & Neural X but I'm not sure if the bang for the buck is there, especially since I was able to get such a great deal on an X5200W "Open Box" special at Best Buy.

So - are we really saying that 2018 is probably the best guesstimate on a x.x.6 AVR? (At least from Denon or a like manufacturer.) If so, that's at least two years away. And, it might take three to four years to deliver at a price point that is comparable to what we have today.
D&M gave us wides because they were used in Atmos and DTS Neo:X, so why not? You can still use them with 4 heights if you only use a 5.1 ear level layout instead of 7.1. I do think that 4 heights are better than 2 if you can accomodate them, and also that SBs are better than wides if you have to make a choice for all the reasons listed above.

Yes end of 2017 is a good guesstimate for 13+ processing channels, but I doubt we'll see more than .4 for a while. There is little need of it. If 13ch, we'll get 9.1.4, and if more we might get CH and TS which would be used both by Auro and DTS:X (possible Atmos as well, although unlikely). This would make a bigger difference for most reasonably sized rooms.

This is why I went for the X7200WA. I was considering waiting until the end of 2016 with a hobbled X5200W, but I wanted DTS:X and Neural:X and couldn't see the point of waiting anymore.

Emotiva might deliver something by the end of this year, but I highly doubt it. If it was to happen, the cost would be twice as much as the X7200WA, so more than I'm ready to pay anyway for less features. There was noise from D&M that 13+ channels were for the end of this year initially, but I think the DTS:X delay postponed things a bit.

Now is a good time to buy in my opinion, but of course I could be proven wrong tomorrow.

The only thing I know is that between the upgrade to the X7200W, the upgrade to DTS:X and the rearrangement of my layout to 7.1.4 with SR at 90 degrees, I'm happy to wait for 9.1.4 at a reasonable price, hopefully from D&M end of 2017 with the X7200WA replacement.

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THANK YOU SIR! It works! Got my AVR back. Now updating through wireless. I think that is a much smaller risk than the USB!
Although certainly not your experience to be sure, USB (when available) is generally the most reliable, followed closely by a "wired" ethernet connection to the modem router (even if just using a 100' cable for updates only) with "wireless" being the least reliable as a glitch in wireless connection could cause the update to freeze up.

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- D&M's implementation of DTS:X only supports wides copying the surrounds or using Neural:X to create a phantom signal from the surrounds and fronts. So no wides support for objects in DTS:X.
Do we really know that for sure?

People have tested what the Neural:X parameter does with the wides with the current DTS:X content. However, in the description for that parameter it says (with my highlight), "DTS Neural:X Expands the non-object based audio signals and optimizes them for your speaker configuration."

That implies there could be object-based audio signals which wouldn't require that Neural:X expansion, right?

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post #3406 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 11:10 AM
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I'm not sure why Denon choose to even have "Front Wides" if Dolby Atmos was the main goal. I guess it was to provide an option since Dolby Atmos does support "FW" - but I'm not sure of this fully treated as an "object" in Atmos and how it's rendered compared to having a "RH" or "TM" instead of the "FW."
Wides with Atmos receive objects. So if a sound pans across from the front to the side surrounds it will pass through the wides. Or if the mixer decided to pull the musical score outside the edges of the screen to focus on the dialogue in the screen channels, that would go to the wides as well.

In terms of "why?".... well, there's support for legacy formats (Audyssey DSX and DTS Neo:X upmixing), plus both Atmos and now DTS:X support it. And probably a decent number of people have them and like them, so they wanted to continue to provide that flexibility. Some people (notably HT designer Anthony Grimani) argue that 9.1.2 is preferable for home Atmos because they feel the increased coverage in the lateral plane is more important than the extra overheads, but the majority feel like 7.1.4 is the sweet spot.

Of course, 9.1.4 or 9.1.6 would be even better
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post #3407 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 11:24 AM
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Do we really know that for sure?

People have tested what the Neural:X parameter does with the wides with the current DTS:X content. However, in the description for that parameter it says (with my highlight), "DTS Neural:X Expands the non-object based audio signals and optimizes them for your speaker configuration."

That implies there could be object-based audio signals which wouldn't require that Neural:X expansion, right?
You are correct we don't know for sure 100%, however if they were supporting wides as objects they would offer wides in the test track, or they would offer a 9.1.4 test track as well as a 7.1.4 test track. I think it's very telling that they don't, given that Neo:X supported wides (channel based of course). As the test tone is object based, I believe they would have included wides in the test tones if they had wides support for wides.

This is why my assumption is that there is no support for wides and only copying/upmixing from the SR/FR channels. I read the bold part in your post as there is only support for non-object wides, not as if there is support for object based audio signals that don't require Neural:X.

Remember that Trinnov has no support for wides AT ALL. If there was wides support for objects in this first implementation, do you think D&M would get it and not Trinnov? I think D&M cleverly thought of this way to implement Neural:X upmixing for wides as a way to offer basic channel support a la Neo:X, just to make sure people won't complain about their wides becoming silent on DTS:X tracks (because more is better, of course).

Of course I could be wrong, we'll find out when we get better test tones, like an object panning across the room through all the speakers, ear layer and heights layer. Until we get something like this, it will be hard to assess.

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post #3408 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 11:30 AM
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Sure, that was also my hope until JD crushed it and revealed there will be no replacement for the X7200WA (or the 8802) until the end of 2017.

I thought I saw somewhere that the flagship replacement was expected at the end of 2016/early 2017. Damn. I can wait until then, but 24 months is a long way away.
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post #3409 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 11:32 AM
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I thought I saw somewhere that the flagship replacement was expected at the end of 2016/early 2017. Damn. I can wait until then, but 24 months is a long way away.

It depends where you read it. The unofficial cycle for the flagship is usually two years, so it was meant to be replaced at the end of 2016. But JD's source told him it will get a 3 year cycle and won't get replaced until the end of 2017. So it depends how well informed your other source is, when you read it, and if JD's source is correct or not (it usually is, but as they say with financial investments, past performance isn't an indication of bla bla bla)...
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
I thought I saw somewhere that the flagship replacement was expected at the end of 2016/early 2017. Damn. I can wait until then, but 24 months is a long way away.
Originally yes ... but the plan has since changed as apparently nothing big to be released in 2016 so the new release date was pushed out to likely Dec 2017.
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post #3411 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 11:35 AM
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I guess that at least means its safe to start looking at TVs if all the connectivity requirements are set for another two years.
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post #3412 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 11:42 AM
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I guess that at least means its safe to start looking at TVs if all the connectivity requirements are set for another two years.
If you make sure it meets the UHD Alliance requirements for UHD Premium AND supports Dolby Vision (which isn't part of the UHD Premium specs), yes, but only a handful of 2016 models do this at the moment, and they are not cheap, especially if you like 3D as most manufacturers are taking it out entirely or only leaving it on their flagship models. It will take a good year if not two for things to really settle down. We're still in early adopters territory unfortunately, especially with HDR.
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post #3413 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 11:59 AM
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That implies there could be object-based audio signals which wouldn't require that Neural:X expansion, right?
Right, the impression I got was that N:X extraction was for expanding the channel-based part of the mix (e.g, scaling a 5.1 bed to 9.1 speakers) while the object-based part of the mix was expected to natively render to the speaker layout.

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post #3414 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 12:14 PM
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Right, the impression I got was that N:X extraction was for expanding the channel-based part of the mix (e.g, scaling a 5.1 bed to 9.1 speakers) while the object-based part of the mix was expected to natively render to the speaker layout.
So you believe that DTS will have given to D&M an implementation of their codec with support for wides for their mainstream AVRS, but will have denied this to Trinnov? Any idea why they would do such a thing, provided it's even possible?

If true, I wouldn't be happy if I was Trinnov or a Trinnov user, but as I said we'll only know for sure when we have access to better test tracks.
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post #3415 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 12:27 PM
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I guess that at least means its safe to start looking at TVs if all the connectivity requirements are set for another two years.
Oh, you haven't heard about the proposed standards for HDCP 3.0? Token based, retinal scan or finger print required to view ANY content, whatsoever. Even your own home videos! (Applies to 4K only, of course.)
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post #3416 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 12:53 PM
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So you believe that DTS will have given to D&M an implementation of their codec with support for wides for their mainstream AVRS, but will have denied this to Trinnov?
I believe the specifics of the Trinnov implementation will be known when it is released.

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post #3417 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 01:28 PM
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I believe the specifics of the Trinnov implementation will be known when it is released.

Sure, if you think Filmmixer isn't a reliable source.
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post #3418 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 01:58 PM
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Sure, if you think Filmmixer isn't a reliable source.
Where did he say that DTS gave Denon an implementation that was "denied" to Trinnov?

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post #3419 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 02:08 PM
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Where did he say that DTS gave Denon an implementation that was "denied" to Trinnov?
Filmmixer said (quoting off memory, he'll correct me I'm sure if I'm wrong) that the first version of the DTS:X code for Trinnov had no support for wides at all. Zilch, nothing, nada. I asked him if he meant just for Trinnov, and he said he believed it wasn't Trinnov specific, that it was a limitation of the code itself, not of any implementation. This is why I thought it was clever of D&M to find a way to use the Neural:X upmixer to create a phantom channel for the wides, but that doesn't mean that objects are supported, in my book.

Now you're saying that D&M supports wides for object rendering. Hence suggesting that D&M was delivered a version of the code without the limitation of the version delivered to Trinnov, according to Filmmixer.

I'm not saying this. You are.
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post #3420 of 5355 Old 02-23-2016, 02:22 PM
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And just for the record, this is what Filmmixer said exactly about wides support for DTS:X for Trinnov: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/286-la...l#post40385218

And if you scroll down, this quote from Curt from Trinnov:

From Curt...

"Yes, as described in my post, "7.1.4." Standard 7.1 layout with 4 heights/tops. There are currently no derivatives of this, i.e. no 9.1.2, etc."

So as I said, unless you think Filmmixer quoting Curt from Trinnov is an unreliable source, it looks like there is no wides support for DTS:X, bar the neural:x patch from the channels implemented by D&M.

Last edited by Manni01; 02-23-2016 at 02:29 PM.
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