Marantz AV8802 13.2 XLR Pre/Pro **Official Thread** - Page 321 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9601 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post
That's okay I tried my DENON 2500btci player and that had no issues either. I will leave my Sony for the Dolby Tracks


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post #9602 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Well, 70 is only 10dB below reference level. If that soundtrack is pushing full-scale signals and the speakers are being asked to be producing 95dB+ at the listening position (105db+ with LFE) over a sustained period of time, and the amplifiers (or even the digital signal) are clipping, it could definitely be "pushing it".
I put the movie on for about 5 minutes, changing scenes. This was a top speaker as well, so you'd think that those wouldn't be pushed as much as the mains, but a lot was coming out of there with Neural. I'll just have to be more careful I guess, but you'd think with a $650 in-ceiling speaker that it would be a little tougher!

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post #9603 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Gates View Post
I put the movie on for about 5 minutes, changing scenes. This was a top speaker as well, so you'd think that those wouldn't be pushed as much as the mains, but a lot was coming out of there with Neural. I'll just have to be more careful I guess, but you'd think with a $650 in-ceiling speaker that it would be a little tougher!
Do you have any idea what scene in the movie might have done it?

I watched Interstellar a long time ago on my Atmos system with no problems. FWIW, I have a single sub that I set to only 2dB above where Audyssey put it. eta: the bass in the most recent BD pressing of Fifth Element still rattled things in the room.

Another FWIW: the LFC (Low Frequency Containment) feature does an excellent job of emasculating the lowest bass frequencies. It completely eliminated the low bass pulse at the beginning of Edge of Tomorrow (Live, Die Repeat). So I turned it off

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post #9604 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
The DTS-HD Master Audio decoder has always played back 5.1 soundtracks using all 7.1 channels (if you have a 7.1 setup). It's not up-mixing per se, it's just copying the Left and Right surrounds to the Left and Right Back Surrounds, and dropping the level, so that they sum back to the correct level.
Same thing happens when playing back a DTS:X soundtrack with Wides. If you turn off Neural:X extraction, it just copies the Left and Right Surrounds to the Left and Right Wides.

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post #9605 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by selden ball View Post
so i turned it off
lol

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post #9606 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Do you have any idea what scene in the movie might have done it?

I watched Interstellar a long time ago on my Atmos system with no problems. FWIW, I have a single sub that I set to only 2dB above where Audyssey put it. eta: the bass in the most recent BD pressing of Fifth Element still rattled things in the room.

Another FWIW: the LFC (Low Frequency Containment) feature does an excellent job of emasculating the lowest bass frequencies. It completely eliminated the low bass pulse at the beginning of Edge of Tomorrow (Live, Die Repeat). So I turned it off
One of the scenes was when the ship circles the black hole. The other one was the launch at the beginning. My subs crapped out before I got my 8802a, so I have to bring them in to get fixed. The problem is that the Paradigm rep spoke with my dealer and has been promising for months he'd come by my house to check it out since they never heard of my problem (both subs going into protection mode at the same time).

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post #9607 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 11:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Gates View Post
I put the movie on for about 5 minutes, changing scenes. This was a top speaker as well, so you'd think that those wouldn't be pushed as much as the mains, but a lot was coming out of there with Neural. I'll just have to be more careful I guess, but you'd think with a $650 in-ceiling speaker that it would be a little tougher!
Ouch! This is a tough one. First we all know how intense 'Interstellar' is on Blu-ray (@ 65dB it is pulsating big). ...Subs are getting a good workout.

When I blew up tweeters and resistors and voice coils and amplifiers and frying parts of speaker's crossovers...in my audio life; that was for many reasons.
I won't go through that here. But your subs are having difficulty...and it's a good thing that they go into protect mode without blowing up resistors and fuses and transistors. ...'Interstellar', again, is "intense".

We have already read about Neural:X and the center channel distortion issue...with 2-channel stereo material. Plus the fuzzy sound in the overheads.
I have no idea what blew up your speaker's crossover with certitude, but this Neural:X up-mixer with a combination of other factors could certainly be the cause.

When I've read very attentively all your posts related to your recent misfortune, I analyzed/tried to determine the cause of all the possibilities from real-life experience and from my extended readings.

• Here's what I suggest to everyone here: Grab your Blu-ray of 'Interstellar, set the master volume @ 70db → is that from the absolute volume level?
{I use relative volume level myself: so select -10dB → below Reference Master volume level.}
- And engage Neural:X
- Pay attention to your subs and overhead speakers.
- Good luck.
- And if you dare, with multiple large subwoofers, like 16 of them stacked, and with four or six overheads;
select THX master reference volume level @ 0dB.

* You are the first member reporting this issue (expensive issue), so it's worth exploring.

Last edited by NorthSky; 02-26-2016 at 11:23 AM.
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post #9608 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Ouch! This is a tough one. First we all know how intense 'Interstellar' is on Blu-ray (@ 65dB it is pulsating big). ...Subs are getting a good workout.

When I blew up tweeters and resistors and voice coils and amplifiers and frying parts of speaker's crossovers...in my audio life; that was for many reasons.
I won't go through that here. But your subs are having difficulty...and it's a good thing that they go into protect mode without blowing up resisters and fuses and transistors. ...'Interstellar', again, is "intense".

We have already read about Neural:X and the center channel distortion issue...with 2-channel stereo material. Plus the fuzzy sound in the overheads.
I have no idea what blew up your speaker's crossover with certitude, but this Neural:X up-mixer with a combination of other factors could certainly be the cause.

When I've read very attentively all your posts related to this issue I analyze all the possibilities from real-life experience and from my extended readings.

• Here's what I suggest to everyone here: Grab your Blu-ray of 'Interstellar, set the master volume @ 70db → is that from the absolute volume level?
{I use relative volume level myself: so select -10dB → below Reference Master volume level.}
- And engage Neural:X
- Pay attention to your subs and overhead speakers.
- Good luck.
- And if you dare, with multiple large subwoofers, like 16 of them stacked, and with four or six overheads;
select THX master reference volume level @ 0dB.

* You are the first member reporting this issue (expensive issue), so it's worth exploring.
The fuzzy sound in the overheads ? First I hear that one. Heard about the 2-channel thing though. If other people try this, I want to put a disclaimer releasing myself from all responsibility

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post #9609 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Well, 70 is only 10dB below reference level. If that soundtrack is pushing full-scale signals and the speakers are being asked to be producing 95dB+ at the listening position (105db+ with LFE) over a sustained period of time, and the amplifiers (or even the digital signal) are clipping, it could definitely be "pushing it".
I'm running 425W/Channel into my mains, so it wasn't amp clipping that fried the cross-over. There should be a warning on the DVD case for this one!
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post #9610 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
• Here's what I suggest to everyone here: Grab your Blu-ray of 'Interstellar, set the master volume @ 70db → is that from the absolute volume level?
{I use relative volume level myself: so select -10dB → below Reference Master volume level.}
- And engage Neural:X
- Pay attention to your subs and overhead speakers.
- Good luck.
- And if you dare, with multiple large subwoofers, like 16 of them stacked, and with four or six overheads;
select THX master reference volume level @ 0dB.
There's no smiley face with that suggestion? So are we to take this as a serious suggestion? If so, do you REALLY think it's a good idea for people to play the movie this loud given that someone fried his speakers doing that? Wouldn't it be better to suggest starting at a lower volume level to be safe? If you forgot the smiley, please edit your post and add one so someone else doesn't follow this advice and fry their speakers...
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post #9611 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 11:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Gates View Post
The fuzzy sound in the overheads ? First I hear that one. Heard about the 2-channel thing though. If other people try this, I want to put a disclaimer releasing myself from all responsibility
My use of the word "fuzzy" is vague, but other words similar were used to describe in certain speaker's configuration...5.1.4...with Neural:X
...Bleeding, veiled, "mono-ized", etc., ...center channel information bleeding into other channels.

I'm trying to determine the cause of your speaker's blown-up, and I share some past readings info.
Sorry for the less than perfect word (French accent).
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post #9612 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
My use of the word "fuzzy" is vague, but other words similar were used to describe in certain speaker's configuration...5.1.4...with Neural:X
...Bleeding, veiled, "mono-ized", etc., ...center channel information bleeding into other channels.

I'm trying to determine the cause of your speaker's blown-up, and I share some past readings info.
Sorry for the less than perfect word (French accent).
It's ok I'm French as well I can't explain it myself, so all I can do is bring them in to get fixed (subs) and replaced (in-ceiling still new).

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post #9613 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
There's no smiley face with that suggestion? So are we to take this as a serious suggestion? If so, do you REALLY think it's a good idea for people to play the movie this loud given that someone fried his speakers doing that? Wouldn't it be better to suggest starting at a lower volume level to be safe? If you forgot the smiley, please edit your post and add one so someone else doesn't follow this advice and fry their speakers...
" Interstellar" is a hot soundtrack! (IE lacking dynamic range) and using a specific number for playback of this or any movie is just asking for it regardless of the playback system. Very few sound tracks excel very well down to reference volume (IE the ones with excellent dynamic range) and one of the best examples of that is "Oblivion" (reference,high fidelity you name it) The same applies to music they all have a volume that's just right so use your ears to judge! your speakers are counting on you!

I say you do the test first and prove Bob wrong! (JK)
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post #9614 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 11:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
There's no smiley face with that suggestion? So are we to take this as a serious suggestion? If so, do you REALLY think it's a good idea for people to play the movie this loud given that someone fried his speakers doing that? Wouldn't it be better to suggest starting at a lower volume level to be safe? If you forgot the smiley, please edit your post and add one so someone else doesn't follow this advice and fry their speakers...
Just the fact that I said; "And if you dare, ..." - that's good enough. ...Only for the hardcore with the proper gear and speakers here.

The point is trying to determine if Neural:X is dangerous with 'Interstellar' Blu-ray and with the master volume near reference THX volume level.
Nothing's wrong with that. Who knows if dts is introducing clipping or distortion with its new software chip implementation.

That wouldn't be the first...dts Bomb issue...center channel distortion..boosted back surrounds...

I think you took my post for something else; the last line is for daredevils that do listen to their movies @ reference level.
So don't tell me that I'm giving advice to not use reference level. I don't give advice, I suggest ideas and share my opinion.

* Read my post again; @ what level did I first suggest to set it?
...Minus 10dB below reference...very fair: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post41931217
If someone suggest you to use that volume level setting for experiment, are you going to freak out each time? I hope not because -10dB is not the end of the world when you are experimenting with your sound system. ...You took my post way out of context as if -10dB was the suggested level always.
...And reference should have an emoticon accompanying it. Ok, here's one/two

Last edited by NorthSky; 02-26-2016 at 11:56 AM.
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post #9615 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
So don't tell me that I'm giving advice to not use reference level. I don't give advice, I suggest ideas and share my opinion.
Bob, "suggest" and "advice" are synonyms.

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* Read my post again; @ what level did I first suggest to set it? ...Minus 10dB below reference...very fair:
That's the level that someone blew his speakers out at, so yes it's bad advice to suggest that "everyone" do it.

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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
If someone suggest you to use that volume level setting for experiment, are you going to freak out each time?
I didn't freak out. I was saying that your advice was bad and could result in someone damaging their speakers (which could be expensive for that person). And yes, if you (or someone else) gives similar bad advice in the future, I'd be inclined to call you (or another poster) out on it.

Of course, enough people have probably blocked your posts by now that not too many will see your advice (oops, I mean suggestion) anyway...
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post #9616 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 11:59 AM
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" Interstellar" is a hot soundtrack! (IE lacking dynamic range)
This is the big problem IMO and it's extremely high AVERAGE levels that are going to be more dangerous than the occasional, transient monster peak.

If the movie takes the "loudness wars" approach with music and compresses dynamic range, so that EVERYTHING is really loud in certain passages, the sustained action over several minutes could start heating up voice coils and damage subs/speakers.

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post #9617 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 12:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by R8der View Post
I'm running 425W/Channel into my mains, so it wasn't amp clipping that fried the cross-over. There should be a warning on the DVD case for this one!
You are the other fellow who also blew up some speakers with the movie 'Interstellar'? ...But it was from the DVD version?
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post #9618 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 12:03 PM
 
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This is the big problem IMO and it's extremely high AVERAGE levels that are going to be more dangerous than the occasional, transient monster peak.

If the movie takes the "loudness wars" approach with music and compresses dynamic range, so that EVERYTHING is really loud in certain passages, the sustained action over several minutes could start heating up voice coils and damage subs/speakers.
Exactemente.

* I blew subwoofer's resistors exactly like that; the exact resistor with the protect mode duty.
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post #9619 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Exactemente.

Perhapsemente


It is possible that the amp failed first.


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post #9620 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
This is the big problem IMO and it's extremely high AVERAGE levels that are going to be more dangerous than the occasional, transient monster peak.

If the movie takes the "loudness wars" approach with music and compresses dynamic range, so that EVERYTHING is really loud in certain passages, the sustained action over several minutes could start heating up voice coils and damage subs/speakers.
Exactly! One can pretty much tell right from the start of a movie if its going to need a significant volume adjustment (up or down) and to go beyond that with a" Loudness war" recording is just asking for it!
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post #9621 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 12:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
Bob, "suggest" and "advice" are synonyms.

That's the level that someone blew his speakers out at, so yes it's bad advice to suggest that "everyone" do it.

I didn't freak out. I was saying that your advice was bad and could result in someone damaging their speakers (which could be expensive for that person). And yes, if you (or someone else) gives similar bad advice in the future, I'd be inclined to call you (or another poster) out on it.

Of course, enough people have probably blocked your posts by now that not too many will see your advice (oops, I mean suggestion) anyway...
Ok, I suggest that people start @ -15dB, then -10db, and if they feel like it they can try -5dB but use caution with that particular movie title.

* A suggestion and an advice are not exactly the same...depending of the context used. Look in a good dictionary for the precision.
http://www.differencebetween.info/di...and-suggestion
http://www.differencebetween.com/dif...vs-suggestion/
http://alanon.activeboard.com/t42583...nd-suggestion/
https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/questio...1040121AAJjDtn

=> This, is not freaking out?

Last, what "blocked my posts" have to do with the topic? Stick with the post content, the topic, and not off topic personal poster matters. Right?
Of course I'm right.

Last edited by NorthSky; 02-26-2016 at 04:14 PM. Reason: →
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post #9622 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 12:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Perhapsemente

It is possible that the amp failed first.

- Rich
Yes Rich, a bad designed amp, or with a QC issue, or some inferior parts can certainly do that.
Investigate first before buying an amp; some are better than others.

* Subwoofer's plate amps...that is a great subject.

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post #9623 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 12:52 PM
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You are the other fellow who also blew up some speakers with the movie 'Interstellar'? ...But it was from the DVD version?
Sorry, should have said Blu-ray version. I had a cross-over in one of my speakers get fried. I'll try to post a picture of the cross-over. I believe it happened just as they were entering the wormhole. Sorry, it's a little off topic since I didn't have my Marantz back then, but when somebody else mentioned damage from that movie I had to chime in. I listened to it in DTS-HD Master Audio via my Oppo player.

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Originally Posted by R8der View Post
Sorry, should have said Blu-ray version. I had a cross-over in one of my speakers get fried. I'll try to post a picture of the cross-over. I believe it happened just as they were entering the wormhole. Sorry, it's a little off topic since I didn't have my Marantz back then, but when somebody else mentioned damage from that movie I had to chime in. I listened to it in DTS-HD Master Audio via my Oppo player.
I see now, thank you for that precision.

I too have 'Interstellar' on Blu-ray (saw it @ the local IMAX theater too), and audio wise is very challenging, like in that scene you just mentioned.
* I did listen to it on Blu in the past (few times) @ approximately minus 10dB below THX reference master volume level...and my couch was lifting up,
with me in it.
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post #9625 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Frank - as Dan noted, the 5.1>7.1 expansion has been a "feature" of the DTS-HD decoder for years.
Until Dan Noted I didn't even know that. I guess I didn't realise as in the past I was using PLII/PLIIz



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However, the current situation where it shows all speakers as lit/active (including the heights) without Neural:X turned on is a bug. There is no sound coming out of the heights even though it shows all channels as lit up. If you activate DTS-HD/MA + Neural:X then the channel indicators will still all be lit up but sound will now come out of the heights.

I can verify that as well as last night I turned off my power amps and left the height power amps on and nothing. No audio.

Wonder if they will have a fix or not going to bother with it.



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post #9626 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Waboman View Post
Between one of your Oppo's and your Denon, why even use the Sony?

Sony is an awesome Blu Ray


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post #9627 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post
Sony is an awesome Blu Ray


Frank
Apparently not if it won't bitstream DTS. I'm curious though, say you have a movie in hand and you're ready to watch it. How do you decide which of your multiple BDPs to use?
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post #9628 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 06:03 PM
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Apparently not if it won't bitstream DTS. I'm curious though, say you have a movie in hand and you're ready to watch it. How do you decide which of your multiple BDPs to use?

Depends on the day, mood etc


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post #9629 of 15435 Old 02-26-2016, 06:04 PM
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Here is a shot of the fried cross-over....which I hope I don't see ever again! Funny story though...I spent days trying to find the problem....thinking it was my processor is why I bought the 8802A. That didn't fix it, so I sent my amp in for repairs. No go there....and then finally isolated the speaker and realized it was the cross-over.

Of course, since I bought the Marantz I had to get the Atmos system up and running......damn Interstellar has cost me a bundle!!!

Oh, before anybody asks me why I didn't check each speaker first, it was very strange. The LF speaker had the fried cross-over, but the RF speaker reacted to it and starting going out. The LF worked but at a reduced level, which I didn't catch until later. I must say, I almost lost what little hair I have left on my head yanking it out over this one!
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Marantz AV8802A, Sunfire Signature Grand (425W x 5), Sunfire TGA-7201 (200W x 7), Oppo UDP-203, Vizio P-75, Phase Technology PC8.5 (FL, FR, SL, SR), Phase Technology PC-Center, Phase Technology PC-60 (RSL, RSR), KEF Ci200rr (FHR, FHL, RHR, RHL), Epik Tower Sub

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post #9630 of 15435 Old 02-27-2016, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Same thing happens when playing back a DTS:X soundtrack with Wides. If you turn off Neural:X extraction, it just copies the Left and Right Surrounds to the Left and Right Wides.
Is anyone else as irritated by this as me? I have always defended the 5.1 -> 7.1 mapping, as that mirrors what happens in cinemas - the surround channels have always been treated as arrays, and if you have a 7.1 home theater, then IMHO the correct thing to do with a 5.1 soundtrack is to map it to 7.1, not to play it with the surround back speakers mute.

But this trick of copying the surrounds to the wides seems to me like it would muck with the soundstage - DTS:X is placing sounds towards the front of the room that the mixer never intended to be placed there.
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