Marantz AV8802 13.2 XLR Pre/Pro **Official Thread** - Page 467 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13981 of 15358 Old 08-18-2017, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Nakamichi3 View Post
My Marantz pre-amplifier is set up in a 9.1.2 configuration as I loved the extra wide channels that I got when running Auddssey DSX on my old Integra preamp. What I have found when playing DTS-X movies is that the wide channels are not used at all (while they are when a DTS 7.1MA is "upmixed" using the DTS-Neural X feature (the pre-amp is set up correctly and all channels are working). I only have Jason Bourne and Fate of the Furious to test it with. Does DTS-X use wide channels in a 9.1.2 configuration on other movies or with other preamps? Marantz tech support told me that DTS-X movies don't mix the sound to use the wide channels in this format. Is that really true?

When playing Atmos movies in the same configuration, the wides get some sound but it cuts in and out (both left and right wides - and the "wide channel" indicator on the front of the pre-amp shows the wides to be on - it doesn't flicker). It's obvious that it's not "mixed" this way as it's cutting full on / full off in the middle of the musical score (different than an object panning down the side of the room). The only movie that uses the wides extensively is Strange Beasts and Where to Find Them. The cutting in and out happens on the 7 or 8 atmos films I've tried except for Hacksaw Ridge where I have a hard time telling. Marantz is saying that it's the way the movies are mixed, but I've been heavily involved in audio for decades and know people don't mix things to simply cut in and out (recognizing that panning does take place). Has anyone else had these issues?


Dolby Digital movies "upmixed" do give me height channels but nothing in the wides. As mentioned before DTS-Neural-X gives me highs and wides along with the regular 7.1 bed. I would prefer to have DTS-X though as all channels are discrete opposed to "upmixted".


Has anyone else got a 9.1.2 setup and experienced these issues?
As noted in your Owner's manual, p. 308 (and in the image below), as long as the DTS:X mixer is using a Front Wide signal, then the audio will go to the Front Wide speakers. The same goes for Dolby Atmos audio as well; however, is not true when using the Dolby Surround upmixer.

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post #13982 of 15358 Old 08-18-2017, 08:50 AM
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On the front of the pre-amp the "W" light is on indicating to me that there is a "wide" signal being processed and yet there is no sound at all with DTS-X. Does this mean that the channel is being used and there is simply nothing directed to that channel? I recognize that could be the case but as I've only have two DTS-X movies to test it on I was wondering if anyone else has a 9.1.2 setup and had the wide channels produce sound? It also seems weird that all the sound engineers using Atmos movies would make use of the wide channels and all the sound engineers using DTS-X wouldn't. That's why I'm wondering if someone knows of a DTS-X movie that does use the wides.

It also doesn't make sense to me that the wide channels cut in an out (like talking to someone with bad cell reception) on Dolby Atmos tracks. On those tracks it cuts in and out in the exact same places in the movie. I swapped Blu-ray players and the dropouts took place in the same places in the movies. I know it's not simply a "directors mixing decision" because it cuts in and out full-volume, it happens when people are talking and when a musical score is playing (something that doesn't really pan but is constant), and it happens in all of my movies.
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post #13983 of 15358 Old 08-18-2017, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakamichi3 View Post
On the front of the pre-amp the "W" light is on indicating to me that there is a "wide" signal being processed and yet there is no sound at all with DTS-X. Does this mean that the channel is being used and there is simply nothing directed to that channel? I recognize that could be the case but as I've only have two DTS-X movies to test it on I was wondering if anyone else has a 9.1.2 setup and had the wide channels produce sound? It also seems weird that all the sound engineers using Atmos movies would make use of the wide channels and all the sound engineers using DTS-X wouldn't. That's why I'm wondering if someone knows of a DTS-X movie that does use the wides.

It also doesn't make sense to me that the wide channels cut in an out (like talking to someone with bad cell reception) on Dolby Atmos tracks. On those tracks it cuts in and out in the exact same places in the movie. I swapped Blu-ray players and the dropouts took place in the same places in the movies. I know it's not simply a "directors mixing decision" because it cuts in and out full-volume, it happens when people are talking and when a musical score is playing (something that doesn't really pan but is constant), and it happens in all of my movies.
Can you provide a couple of specific movie titles and times where you hear the cutouts happening? That way someone else with wides and those titles can check to see if it's a problem in the discs' audio mixes or in your equipment. Relatively few people have wides, so most people wouldn't notice those kinds of problems.

If you haven't already, you should check to make sure that all of the connections associated with your wide speakers are tight. Vibrations can cause loose connections to be intermittent.

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post #13984 of 15358 Old 08-18-2017, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakamichi3 View Post
Marantz tech support told me that DTS-X movies don't mix the sound to use the wide channels in this format. Is that really true?
It is true to the extent that almost all DTS:X soundtracks are discrete 7.1.4 mixes: 11.1 channels with no audio objects. Movie sound, either in the cinema or at home, has never had "wide channels". Sounds coming from wide speakers are either audio objects or matrix extracted.

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post #13985 of 15358 Old 08-18-2017, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Nakamichi3 View Post
On the front of the pre-amp the "W" light is on indicating to me that there is a "wide" signal being processed and yet there is no sound at all with DTS-X.
Can you temporarily set your rear speakers to None and try those DTS:X soundtracks again to see if anything comes out of the wides?

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post #13986 of 15358 Old 08-18-2017, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Anyone have an issue with the Trigger port (1) dying? Mine just kicked out 10 seconds after turn on this morning. unplugged the 8802 for a few minutes, and swapped trigger cables with port two, and problem followed the port not the cable or devices.

Any ideas?


Thanks for posting this. My unit has been sitting unmoved for a year now. I turned it on this morning with no issue. I turned it on this afternoon and nothing triggered. I thought for sure it was my old Belkin AV power center but it turns out it was the trigger 1 out stopped working properly - it would turn on the equipment for about 10 seconds and then everything powered off. I rewired just about everything and nothing helped. I was just about to order a new AV surge console until I moved it to the second unit.

Can you tell me if you had it repaired? If so what was involved. I'm a little worried about the quality of the rest of the components in the 8802 now.
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post #13987 of 15358 Old 08-18-2017, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by boe View Post
Thanks for posting this. My unit has been sitting unmoved for a year now. I turned it on this morning with no issue. I turned it on this afternoon and nothing triggered. I thought for sure it was my old Belkin AV power center but it turns out it was the trigger 1 out stopped working properly - it would turn on the equipment for about 10 seconds and then everything powered off. I rewired just about everything and nothing helped. I was just about to order a new AV surge console until I moved it to the second unit.

Can you tell me if you had it repaired? If so what was involved. I'm a little worried about the quality of the rest of the components in the 8802 now.
In my cases the unit was swapped as I think it was only owned for a short period of time

I wouldn't necessarily be concerned about the overall build quality - I don't recall any other substantive issues among users, but I haven't be around on this thread for a while...

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post #13988 of 15358 Old 08-21-2017, 10:17 PM
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Hi!

Thinking about getting the 8802A, but have to ask because I cant find any "dont´s" right now.

- What will I miss with the 8802A in terms of compability with the new formats? As far as we know right now? I cant see any. It supports 4:4:4, HDR10 and uhd 60hz.



I we extend the question and speculate: What will the 8803 (or 8804) probably have that I might want in a few years? Major 3 things would be? (I know its only speculations but it may help too) :-)

I don´t care about any further developments regarding sound quality. This piece will do enough for the rest of my life regarding that. If there is anything I dont need any better its the sound quality. Better DACs, thicker Cu chassie and more gold on the terminals f.e.
;-)

Last edited by IMAGINAERUM; 08-22-2017 at 03:56 AM.
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post #13989 of 15358 Old 08-22-2017, 03:44 AM
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I'm going to guess the major upgrade for the next 880x is HEOS multi room audio

You may get up to 9.2.6 if Dolby's newest test disc is an indication.
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post #13990 of 15358 Old 08-22-2017, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMAGINAERUM View Post
Hi!

Thinking about getting the 8802A, but have to ask because I cant find any "dont´s" right now.

- What will I miss with the 8802A in terms of compability with the new formats? As far as we know right now? I cant see any. It supports 4:4:4, HDR10 and uhd 60hz.



I we extend the question and speculate: What will the 8803 (or 8804) probably have that I might want in a few years? Major 3 things would be? (I know its only speculations but it may help too) :-)

I don´t care about any further developments regarding sound quality. This piece will do enough for the rest of my life regarding that. If there is anything I dont need any better its the sound quality. Better DACs, thicker Cu chassie and more gold on the terminals f.e.
;-)
From all accounts you lose ability to use audyssey pro with its calibrated mic etc

On other hand there has been word now of a flagship D&M in the works above this 8 series ... perhaps a new flagship denon a series which is due 2018 if the 10 year cycles of last 3 Gen are anything to go by.

That would buy full balanced true full balanced. Two big toroidal gonads and think saw mention of more channels... anyways my imagination running away check back a page or so in this thread... but I can't imagine a flagship like that coming out without decent calibrated mic eq system at the veery least ....

Ps we also know hdmi 2.1 is already out but what that means for av processors is anyone's guess...

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post #13991 of 15358 Old 08-22-2017, 06:24 AM
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Ps we also know hdmi 2.1 is already out but what that means for av processors is anyone's guess...
The HDMI 2.1 spec should be released to mfr's this fall so we should start seeing it on the new 2018 models. This is a hardware change requiring a new HDMI cable as well. Also, it's been confirmed from an early release document from Best Buy that the new "flagship" Denon X8500H will have 13 on board amps so it stands to reason, the new AV8805 should have 13CH capability as well, of which both models are scheduled to be released spring 2018.

And correct, as of the 2016 D+M models, Audyssey Pro has been discontinued, rather instead using the newer Audyssey MultEQ Editor app (iOS/Android, $20).
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post #13992 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 02:42 AM
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....the new "flagship" Denon X8500H will have 13 on board amps so it stands to reason, the new AV8805 should have 13CH capability as well, of which both models are scheduled to be released spring 2018.
.
But the 8802A has 13 channels already or have I lost it completely now in my older days? :-D
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post #13993 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 04:39 AM
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But the 8802A has 13 channels already or have I lost it completely now in my older days? :-D
13 connections

11 simultaneous
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post #13994 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
13 connections



11 simultaneous


I don't use the wides it would of be nice if we could assign those channels to other speaker like the Denon AVP did (eg Subwoofer, heights etc ). Would of be nice.

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post #13995 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 05:57 AM
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you actually think the the 2018 Denon X8500H will have 13 active channels or probably what the 8802a currently is second zone 2 channels 11 active channels? i can't see wides wides coming back but I can definitely see 6 atoms speakers, kind seems to be the hype right now.

When running audyssey with Atmos channels do you think that audyssey sets the trim levels on atmos speakers correctly? I tried to use a iPhone spl app but when I use the pink noise under manual speaker setup to get 75db of pink noise I have to turn the volume on the 8802a all the way up to "0" (reference)which does not seem right. If I try and then adjust the level it puts the speakers up to +10 which does not seem right. So my question is how do you use the pink noise under manual setup to calibrate speaker levels on the 8802a with a 75db? after getting the 8802a to 75db I would take the spl and match each speaker to 75db right? Any help would be appreciated.

thanks

dave
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post #13996 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 06:15 AM
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I don't use the wides it would of be nice if we could assign those channels to other speaker like the Denon AVP did (eg Subwoofer, heights etc ). Would of be nice.
agree no interest in wides...

but yes would be good if could be used for more subs or something. I agree the avp was super flexible in this regard. most flexible sub configurable unit I've come across with its 3 sub capability where could use as 3 x LFE, ore 3 subs as L&R and LFE

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post #13997 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 06:39 AM
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The HDMI 2.1 spec should be released to mfr's this fall so we should start seeing it on the new 2018 models. This is a hardware change requiring a new HDMI cable as well. Also, it's been confirmed from an early release document from Best Buy that the new "flagship" Denon X8500H will have 13 on board amps so it stands to reason, the new AV8805 should have 13CH capability as well, of which both models are scheduled to be released spring 2018.

And correct, as of the 2016 D+M models, Audyssey Pro has been discontinued, rather instead using the newer Audyssey MultEQ Editor app (iOS/Android, $20).
why does anyone really need hdmi 2.1 though. what is the pressing need. also what is the pressing need for 13 channels ?

what is driving all this ?

and yeah as said before many times, i see the dropping off audyssey pro and replacing with iPhone app as a back ward move. unless planning to provide a good quality calibrated mic as part of deal. whats next using the inbuilt mic on the iPhone to calibrate.

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post #13998 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave-T View Post
you actually think the the 2018 Denon X8500H will have 13 active channels or probably what the 8802a currently is second zone 2 channels 11 active channels? i can't see wides wides coming back but I can definitely see 6 atoms speakers, kind seems to be the hype right now.

When running audyssey with Atmos channels do you think that audyssey sets the trim levels on atmos speakers correctly? I tried to use a iPhone spl app but when I use the pink noise under manual speaker setup to get 75db of pink noise I have to turn the volume on the 8802a all the way up to "0" (reference)which does not seem right. If I try and then adjust the level it puts the speakers up to +10 which does not seem right. So my question is how do you use the pink noise under manual setup to calibrate speaker levels on the 8802a with a 75db? after getting the 8802a to 75db I would take the spl and match each speaker to 75db right? Any help would be appreciated.

thanks

dave
dave i would suggest iPhone app as spl meter is not a real accurate to be measuring. i dont know where you are but the radio shack spl meter is a popular one thats also very affordably priced. it isn't though that accurate for sub bass measurement though so i would use for all but that.

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post #13999 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
why does anyone really need hdmi 2.1 though. what is the pressing need. also what is the pressing need for 13 channels ?

what is driving all this ?

and yeah as said before many times, i see the dropping off audyssey pro and replacing with iPhone app as a back ward move. unless planning to provide a good quality calibrated mic as part of deal. whats next using the inbuilt mic on the iPhone to calibrate.
D&M Would be foolish NOT to have the latest version of hdmi on their flagship that will be in line for at least 2 years.

Lots of people want 13 channel processing to run 6 overheads. They must have pretty big rooms!
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post #14000 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 09:24 AM
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D&M Would be foolish NOT to have the latest version of hdmi on their flagship that will be in line for at least 2 years.

Lots of people want 13 channel processing to run 6 overheads. They must have pretty big rooms!
Not necessarily. If you already have Top Front and Top Rear speakers, all you're adding is Top Middle directly above the main listening position.
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post #14001 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 09:27 AM
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But the 8802A has 13 channels already or have I lost it completely now in my older days? :-D
As noted by others, although numerous models offer 11-13 pre-outs, 11CH operation is the max possible from any major brand mfr.
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post #14002 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post
I don't use the wides it would of be nice if we could assign those channels to other speaker like the Denon AVP did (eg Subwoofer, heights etc ). Would of be nice.
Indeed. Only the current and past "flagship" Denon AVRs have this capability (ie. Custom AMP ASSIGN).
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post #14003 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
why does anyone really need hdmi 2.1 though. what is the pressing need. also what is the pressing need for 13 channels ?

what is driving all this ?

and yeah as said before many times, i see the dropping off audyssey pro and replacing with iPhone app as a back ward move. unless planning to provide a good quality calibrated mic as part of deal. whats next using the inbuilt mic on the iPhone to calibrate.
It's partly about future proofing as the "flagship" Denon AVR/Marantz AVP likely won't be replaced again until 2020-21, not to mention there are likely a lot more of us "Front Wide" users than you might think.
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post #14004 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 02:46 PM
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Sound through Dig Cable Box

I have a spectrum/time warner DVR cable box going through the Marantz 8802. Whenever I watch a tv show or movie through cable the sound is just not quite right to me. I always find myself raising the volume to get a good clear sound more than when I listen to 2 channel audio music or a Blu Ray movie through the Oppo UDP 205. The separation just sounds way better through the Oppo for movies and music. I have a 2 channel system with no Sub and a 200w Rotel stereo amp powering the speakers. I have no audyssey set up. I set it up once and hated the sound and turned it off.
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post #14005 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Manganzon81 View Post
I have a spectrum/time warner DVR cable box going through the Marantz 8802. Whenever I watch a tv show or movie through cable the sound is just not quite right to me. I always find myself raising the volume to get a good clear sound more than when I listen to 2 channel audio music or a Blu Ray movie through the Oppo UDP 205. The separation just sounds way better through the Oppo for movies and music. I have a 2 channel system with no Sub and a 200w Rotel stereo amp powering the speakers. I have no audyssey set up. I set it up once and hated the sound and turned it off.
I don't see a question in there, but it certainly doesn't surprise me that you would find audio from the Oppo superior to audio from a cable box. The 8802A is a fine processor, but it can't turn low quality audio into something pristine.
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post #14006 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 03:35 PM
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I actually found Wide speakers far more involving in my setup than overheard. There's more stuff happening at ear level.

The way the wide speakers fill a void as a robot stomps around you or as a car drives offscreen is just better conveyed with wides
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post #14007 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
...what is the pressing need for 13 channels ?
The desire for more channels is usually driven by the idea of replacing phantom images with hard sources (speakers). For the lucky listener seated in the sweet spot, phantom imaging between the L & R speakers and between the fronts & sides will appear at the intended locations. For listeners outside the sweet spot (everybody else), the phantom imaging will pull towards the nearest speakers.

Replacing those phantom images with speakers won't change their intended direction (sounds from the centre speaker would have phantom imaged at the centre of the soundstage anyway), but it will make directionality more stable; no matter where listeners are seated. It's not unreasonable to want greater imaging stability, to whatever extent you can accommodate more speakers.

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post #14008 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The desire for more channels is usually driven by the idea of replacing phantom images with hard sources (speakers). For the lucky listener seated in the sweet spot, phantom imaging between the L & R speakers and between the fronts & sides will appear at the intended locations. For listeners outside the sweet spot (everybody else), the phantom imaging will pull towards the nearest speakers.

Replacing those phantom images with speakers won't change their intended direction (sounds from the centre speaker would have phantom imaged at the centre of the soundstage anyway), but it will make directionality more stable; no matter where listeners are seated. It's not unreasonable to want greater imaging stability, to whatever extent you can accommodate more speakers.
where there is indeed discrete support for speakers e.g. for 7.1.4 to support atmos in their suggested locations I think it makes sense. while we dont really know what on earth marantz might do with phantom speakers ? I have no real compelling need. certainly with my 7.1.5 setup am not adding anything more so not like i see a compelling need for more speakers in anycase.

also it hasnt been explained why hdmi 2.1 just upgrading for upgrading sake doesnt to me make a lot of sense. and i down see anything compelling there on why i should be compelled to upgrade to hdmi 2.1

i only see a detractor so far in that marantz and denon are dropping support for calibrating with a calibrated mic and more sophisticated system. so only i am seeing so far for newer models is a dis incentive to upgrade.

happy to sit by way side and see what might show but at present it is as it is that i can see... i.e. like many of us did with the denon avp, likely be many of us sitting it out wiht the 8802A here..porbably till 2020/1 by the sounds

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post #14009 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 05:06 PM
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while we dont really know what on earth marantz might do with phantom speakers ?
Not sure what you mean by "phantom speakers", but Marantz is going from 11 channels to 13 channels because the newer DSP engines have enough horsepower to allow the Atmos decoder to render to two more speaker locations then before. Not like that's a mystery.

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post #14010 of 15358 Old 08-23-2017, 05:12 PM
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Not sure what you mean by "phantom speakers", but Marantz is going from 11 channels to 13 channels because the newer DSP engines have enough horsepower to allow the Atmos decoder to render to two more speaker locations then before. Not like that's a mystery.
Hey, the guy just isn't ready for this kind of hardware yet. So why should you?





















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