Marantz AV8802 13.2 XLR Pre/Pro **Official Thread** - Page 469 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14041 of 15369 Old 08-25-2017, 12:49 AM
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all quiet on the northern front... time to catch em napping
I'll get the Lodge lawyer ready and the PR guy ready for "Meet the Press" to spin our way out of this

Have fun!
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post #14042 of 15369 Old 08-25-2017, 01:10 AM
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I'll get the Lodge lawyer ready and the PR guy ready for "Meet the Press" to spin our way out of this

Have fun!
looks like they've arrived ...



hope the beers cold

sp franin has been awful quiet of late ...
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post #14043 of 15369 Old 08-25-2017, 01:16 AM
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looks like they've arrived ...







hope the beers cold



sp franin has been awful quiet of late ...


Still here, reading you guys posts having a good laugh
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post #14044 of 15369 Old 08-25-2017, 01:19 AM
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looks like they've arrived ...



hope the beers cold

sp franin has been awful quiet of late ...
Think He's been watching movies and perhaps secretly lurking the Anthem threads

but I do hope all is well with em !
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post #14045 of 15369 Old 08-25-2017, 01:22 AM
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Think He's been watching movies and perhaps secretly lurking the Anthem threads



but I do hope all is well with em !


Anthem, Yamaha I'm there lurking.
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post #14046 of 15369 Old 08-25-2017, 03:07 AM
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Thanx for some input regarding my question earlier about what I might miss.

A more specific question is Dolby Vision. Will 8802A be capable for this too? Lots of recievers are branded to support Dolby Vision now. This is to me the negative side for the industry. Feels like they are complicating things like in the old days when you had to search for all kinds of video codecs to play a simple movie file. Before VLC came...
If processors/recievers goest that path we will have a lot of unpleasant users that (like me) has gone to the UHD world. (Just to find out that my 203 has bad HDR to SDR conversion and my UHD disc gives me bad blacks on the Panasonic AX900 that normally gives me stunning picture on Bluray.)

Another specific question is how low does the 8002A go regarding bass management. 15Hz?

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post #14047 of 15369 Old 08-25-2017, 03:26 AM
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Thanx for some input regarding my question earlier about what I might miss.

A more specific question is Dolby Vision. Will 8802A be capable for this too? Lots of recievers are branded to support Dolby Vision now. This is to me the negative side for the industry. Feels like they are complicating things like in the old days when you had to search for all kinds of video codecs to play a simple movie file. Before VLC came...
If processors/recievers goest that path we will have a lot of unpleasant users that (like me) has gone to the UHD world. (Just to find out that my 203 has bad HDR to SDR conversion and my UHD disc gives me bad blacks on the Panasonic AX900 that normally gives me stunning picture on Bluray.)

Another specific question is how low does the 8002A go regarding bass management. 15Hz?
hi, the 8802A at this point doesnt support dolby vision "now" as you request. however it has been promised that an update will be forthcoming to enable. this isn't that unusual these days. many displays and such are also being enabled with updates down the track.

cant tell yo are how low on the 8802A lowest I have selected from memory is 40hz in my playing. not sure why would want to go as low as 15hz. but perhaps down load manual and have a read up to see if goes that low

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post #14048 of 15369 Old 08-25-2017, 04:10 AM
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hi, the way audyssey works is it does indeed measure each sub individually... for it to happen it needs individual connections of each sub so can ping each...and apply level and delay to each.... its only pinged as once after that to apply the eq

read below from chris from audyssey re how xt32 and its multi sub capability works,

"The idea is to first measure each sub separately, then apply delay and level settings so that the two subs are now time and level aligned. Then we ping them once more as "one" sub to derive the room correction filter"

so having a system capable of dealing in multiple subs is crucial if running anything over one... and certainly very necessary for 2-3

as far as number of subs in a room, the below is THE definitive work on the matter conducted by harman,

https://www.harman.com/sites/default...multsubs_0.pdf

as it concludes,

"Four subwoofers are enough to get the best result of any configuration tried. Two subwoofers is very nearly as good and has very good low frequency support as well."

"One subwoofer at each wall midpoint is the best in terms of Std, Max-ave and Max-min but does not support low frequencies particularly well. Two subwoofers, at opposing wall midpoints, performs very nearly as well as four at the midpoints and gives a much better LF factor. One subwoofer in each corner also has good low frequency support, but does not perform quite as well as one subwoofer at each wall midpoint, in terms of Std, Max-ave and Max-min. If cost and aesthetics are considered, subwoofers at 2 wall midpoints is preferred."

ofcourse running 2 or 4 subs what is critical is not only positioning which the white paper goes in some detail with. but also quite obviously dialing them in perfection which requires measurement and an EQ that is suitable. At end of it dolby has systems for in the home supporting upto 9.1.6 and while there is one LFE channel to optimise for rooms people will utilise more than the one channel. Adding more channels to processing capability certainly provides the option of connecting, measurement and eq to support e.g. as D&M has already done in years gone by. And similarly as shown even now accurus supporting with facility to cope with 3 subwoofers in a system.

I totally accept just like not everyone will go with 9 main channels and 6 height channels in systems, I also accept no everyone will go more 3-4 subs let alone even over one sub which is possibly more the norm. but buying into more expensive av processing systems is all about enabling greater capability and configurability. why else would people upgrade to them and am trying to look to the future and compelling reasons why we might possibly upgrade at some point in the future. greater subwoofer capability and continuing on the great system we have now to measure with calibrated mic and eq with a system capable of handling multiple subs as we have now is certainly one of them
So you agree what I stated about the way Audyssey or others handle two subs.

A DBA (Double Bass Array) with a minimum of 4 subs needs only one output, because it works quite differently as the SBA versions you mentioned; it handles room modes by creating a wave system across the room width and canceling it through destructive interference at the rear wall, needing an additional delay line and inverting the rear subs to make this possible. This is been treated as a "black box" and only a single output is needed to handle level, delay and correcting the residual deviations in a "real room" for this construct. This has nothing to do with the Harman White Papers. because they are writing about an SBA. If interested consult the internet about this.




For a new
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post #14049 of 15369 Old 08-25-2017, 04:33 AM
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So you agree what I stated about the way Audyssey or others handle two subs.

A DBA (Double Bass Array) with a minimum of 4 subs needs only one output, because it works quite differently as the SBA versions you mentioned; it handles room modes by creating a wave system across the room width and canceling it through destructive interference at the rear wall, needing an additional delay line and inverting the rear subs to make this possible. This is been treated as a "black box" and only a single output is needed to handle level, delay and correcting the residual deviations in a "real room" for this construct. This has nothing to do with the Harman White Papers. because they are writing about an SBA. If interested consult the internet about this.

For a new
I totally understand if you have a key interest in DBA's, I have however no intent to implement thanks though in taking the time to highlight. definitely anyone interested should indeed investigate

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post #14050 of 15369 Old 08-25-2017, 09:32 AM
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nVidia Shield

On my Shield, all resolutions are available for selection. However, the only Color Space available is YCbCr 4:2:0 8-bit Rec. 709, and Dynamic Range is grayed out (so no adjustment is possible). I'm running the Shield through a Marantz 8802A pre/pro, and from there to a Sony XBR75X940D. I'm thinking I'd like to tone down the Dynamic Range to Limited, but I can't. (I have plugged the Shield directly into the 940D, with no change.) Any ideas?
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post #14051 of 15369 Old 08-25-2017, 09:37 AM
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I totally understand if you have a key interest in DBA's, I have however no intent to implement thanks though in taking the time to highlight. definitely anyone interested should indeed investigate
I did setup a 2x2 DBA several years ago in my home cinema and still have it because of that "super-clean" bass. I go more for definition than volume...
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post #14052 of 15369 Old 08-26-2017, 05:43 AM
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I totally understand if you have a key interest in DBA's, I have however no intent to implement thanks though in taking the time to highlight. definitely anyone interested should indeed investigate


Hey Al what happened to DTV ??

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post #14053 of 15369 Old 08-26-2017, 05:57 AM
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There are inexpensive solutions from companies like MiniDSP that augment the 8802A with multi-sub integration and bass management improvements. I would prefer that Marantz focus on support for additional channels and next-generation HDMI, which cannot be easily added with external products.
Minidsp/rew, step by step guide or not, is way too complicated and time consuming for all but the most severe enthusiasts. Better focus on low frequency calibration/integration within the unit itself would be very welcome and demonstrable to nearly all potential buyers.

I had the 8801 and 8802 and other Audyssey (Pro) based processors. Right now, Anthem's ARC does a better job with low frequency adjustment and blending.

Audyssey needs help, or needs to be replaced. So it's an area I personally would look at for improvements, as I'd have no issue considering a Marantz in the future if they did this...they make good gear...
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post #14054 of 15369 Old 08-26-2017, 06:28 AM
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Hey Al what happened to DTV ??
merged with stereo net, all content has moved across your user ID should have moved across as well
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post #14055 of 15369 Old 08-26-2017, 06:56 AM
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Minidsp/rew, step by step guide or not, is way too complicated and time consuming for all but the most severe enthusiasts. Better focus on low frequency calibration/integration within the unit itself would be very welcome and demonstrable to nearly all potential buyers.

I had the 8801 and 8802 and other Audyssey (Pro) based processors. Right now, Anthem's ARC does a better job with low frequency adjustment and blending.

Audyssey needs help, or needs to be replaced. So it's an area I personally would look at for improvements, as I'd have no issue considering a Marantz in the future if they did this...they make good gear...
It is always interesting to see how different users come to different conclusions. Back in 2014, I conducted an evaluation of ARC on the MRX510. I spent quite a bit of time running different calibrations, searching for the best results with my setup. My progress was carefully measured using REW. On 9/1/2015 I posted results showing a comparison of ARC, Audyssey (XT32 with Pro), and Dirac Live (88A). Of the three RC solutions, ARC came in last. FWIW, you can view the comparison here:

Compare ARC, Audyssey and Dirac
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post #14056 of 15369 Old 08-26-2017, 07:16 AM
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It is always interesting to see how different users come to different conclusions. Back in 2014, I conducted an evaluation of ARC on the MRX510. I spent quite a bit of time running different calibrations, searching for the best results with my setup. My progress was carefully measured using REW. On 9/1/2015 I posted results showing a comparison of ARC, Audyssey (XT32 with Pro), and Dirac Live (88A). Of the three RC solutions, ARC came in last. FWIW, you can view the comparison here:

Compare ARC, Audyssey and Dirac
Certainly possible different rooms benefit differently, but I know a few others who switched to ARC from Audyssey and preferred ARC.

Was your test with ARC 1 or ARC 2?

But the larger point only is that the processor itself ultimately should incorporate more sophisticated solutions rather than adding external complexities like MiniDSP and REW

Thanks

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post #14057 of 15369 Old 08-26-2017, 08:12 AM
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Certainly possible different rooms benefit differently, but I know a few others who switched to ARC from Audyssey and preferred ARC.

Was your test with ARC 1 or ARC 2?

But the larger point only is that the processor itself ultimately should incorporate more sophisticated solutions rather than adding external complexities like MiniDSP and REW

Thanks
I don't know which version of ARC I was using--it was quite some time ago. The date of my comparison should provide a clue.

I think the larger point is that separating the room correction technology from the processor allows for greater flexibility and protects from obsolescence. Recall the early days of Audyssey when they had an external device to add Audyssey processing to existing AVR's? And the well-respected Audyssey Sub Equalizer and AS-EQ1? There is precedent for external devices to enhance capabilities to existing AVR's. Whether or not the complexity makes it worthwhile or not, I don't know.
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post #14058 of 15369 Old 08-26-2017, 04:16 PM
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I don't know which version of ARC I was using--it was quite some time ago. The date of my comparison should provide a clue.

I think the larger point is that separating the room correction technology from the processor allows for greater flexibility and protects from obsolescence. Recall the early days of Audyssey when they had an external device to add Audyssey processing to existing AVR's? And the well-respected Audyssey Sub Equalizer and AS-EQ1? There is precedent for external devices to enhance capabilities to existing AVR's. Whether or not the complexity makes it worthwhile or not, I don't know.
avrs and processors though moved on from those days offering all these systems built in. removing the need to be passing over analog and the additional A-D, D-A's required to the point of the quite sophisticated systems we have. the sub eq was quite a decent unit though, I know people using it for instance with the flagship anthem D2 because of the superior result it provides

am sure many people buy particular units/brands due to the kind of measurement, calibration and eq system they build in. a family member of mine bought a denon avp because of what it achieved for end result vs classe ssp800. how many people stopped buying onkyo/integra when they dropped audyssey for the half baked home cooked thing they included instead ? i can see few people no longer buying into maranrtz in the future when they drop audyssey pro and we are just left with its app and plastic mic. I know i will be reconsidering any furture purchase just on that aspect. though we have a while to go and who is to know what is actually to come. with next model due and one after... I kept my last processor 8 years... so am not one to be just replacing for replacing sake.

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post #14059 of 15369 Old 08-27-2017, 12:57 AM
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avrs and processors though moved on from those days offering all these systems built in. removing the need to be passing over analog and the additional A-D, D-A's required to the point of the quite sophisticated systems we have. the sub eq was quite a decent unit though, I know people using it for instance with the flagship anthem D2 because of the superior result it provides

am sure many people buy particular units/brands due to the kind of measurement, calibration and eq system they build in. a family member of mine bought a denon avp because of what it achieved for end result vs classe ssp800. how many people stopped buying onkyo/integra when they dropped audyssey for the half baked home cooked thing they included instead ? i can see few people no longer buying into maranrtz in the future when they drop audyssey pro and we are just left with its app and plastic mic. I know i will be reconsidering any furture purchase just on that aspect. though we have a while to go and who is to know what is actually to come. with next model due and one after... I kept my last processor 8 years... so am not one to be just replacing for replacing sake.
No reason not to continue with Marantz especially when DIRAC is not much more expensive and is reported to do an even better job as noted by a number of former Audyssey Pro owners to include the Audyssey FAQ author who now uses DIRAC instead of Audyssey.
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From the somewhat "older" measurements AustinJerry referred to it doesn't look to me as if Dirac is really "superior" to Audyssey (XT32). It probably depends on the room and the individual situation one faces at home. Both have been "hyped" a lot and some people have switched to Dirac from Audyssey but mostly because they were able to adjust Dirac to their liking which Audyssey didn't support at that time. If Dirac is really sound wise "superior "to Audysssey XT32: I still doubt it. Unfortunately many supporters are fighting for what they "think" is better not really providing any "evidence" for their point of view.

Reading through several threads about Dirac - at least to me - gave the impression of a more complex setup compared to Audyssey. If one wants to get more involved, fine, but if he doesn't then it no longer is that easy to setup in comparison. I still consider them "equal" in comparison referring to its sonic virtues if one takes the new Audyssey App into consideration, which might still have its bugs but is heading the right direction. Note: Not talking about the additional cost disadvantage a Dirac AVR or external setup will create.
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No reason not to continue with Marantz especially when DIRAC is not much more expensive and is reported to do an even better job as noted by a number of former Audyssey Pro owners to include the Audyssey FAQ author who now uses DIRAC instead of Audyssey.
are you suggesting marantz will be offering dirac with a better calibrated mic etc in the future. or are you talking about people who have given up on marantz's inbuilt measurement calibration and eq capability plastic mic and using dirac via some external means instead to better result ?

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post #14062 of 15369 Old 08-27-2017, 05:59 AM
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are you suggesting marantz will be offering dirac with a better calibrated mic etc in the future. or are you talking about people who have given up on marantz's inbuilt measurement calibration and eq capability plastic mic and using dirac via some external means instead to better result ?
I'm saying if someone was willing to pay $700 for the Audyssey Pro Kit, that if they prefer to enhance what XT32 is already doing, first they would have had to invest another $150 for another license for the newer pre/pro; however, instead can put that money towards a Mini-DSP and UMIK-1 for even better audio clarity than what the Audyssey Pro Kit offers by using DIRAC.

Bottom line .... with the ability of using either Dirac or the new (and still being improved) Audyssey MultEQ Editor app, there's no reason not to consider the newer AV8804 when it's released Spring 2018.

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From the somewhat "older" measurements AustinJerry referred to it doesn't look to me as if Dirac is really "superior" to Audyssey (XT32). It probably depends on the room and the individual situation one faces at home. Both have been "hyped" a lot and some people have switched to Dirac from Audyssey but mostly because they were able to adjust Dirac to their liking which Audyssey didn't support at that time. If Dirac is really sound wise "superior "to Audysssey XT32: I still doubt it. Unfortunately many supporters are fighting for what they "think" is better not really providing any "evidence" for their point of view.

Reading through several threads about Dirac - at least to me - gave the impression of a much complex setup compared to Audyssey. If one wants to get more involved, fine, but if he doesn't then it no longer is that easy to setup in comparison. I still consider them "equal" in comparison referring to its sonic virtues.o if one takes the new Audyssey App into consideration, which might still have its bugs but is heading the right direction.
When I first started using Dirac, I spent quite a bit of time comparing Dirac and Audyssey. You are correct, the frequency response measurements don't show a significant difference, but if you were to go back and look at the other posts in which the two products were compared, you will see that there is a significant difference when it comes to controlling specular reflections, where Dirac does the better job. Add to that the superior (at the time) configurability of the target curve editor, and (introduced at a later date) the 88A bass management plug-in, Dirac has become the clear winner, IMO. Of course, there is a somewhat higher implementation effort, but that is why we come to AVS for help. And for those of us looking for the best audio solution, the extra effort is highly rewarding.
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post #14064 of 15369 Old 08-27-2017, 09:45 AM
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Auro 3D?

I bought the 8802A solely for its sound qualities. I had an 8801 and sold it soon after i purchased it as I liked my Onkyo using XT32 better. Just my preference in sound.

But the 8802 seemed to be a different animal entirely and I quickly changed my system over to accommodate it. Then I decided to change everything to Auro3D, specifically a 10.1 setup.

I use the system primarily for music, computer streaming, mostly Roon, 3 turntables, tube gear, etc. Everything goes through Audessey XT32 and pretty much everything is listened to through the Auro3D setup. I find the music is simply delightful and everything sounds great. Maybe it is not accurate to the source, but it sure sounds great.

Note that for bass management, I run the LF output to a Behringer DCX2496 with sends the mono signal to 4 subs. The subs have to be individually corrected for delay so that they are in phase, but in the current iteration of the system, the 5 parametric filters used are global. I have a consultant who is a speaker designer with multiple patents, recording and mastering engineer and a acoustician, who has the skill and ears to make it work. We use the Pro kit for Audessey.

So, how many of you out there are using Auro3D?

Peter Truce

ptruce

Calibrated room - 3 turntables/many phono stages, Oppo 203, Intel NUC i7, Synology 216play, 5 Event speakers, 5 Aperion speakers, 4 sealed subs & Marantz 8802A - Auro 3D in 10.1 setup.
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post #14065 of 15369 Old 08-27-2017, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptruce View Post
I bought the 8802A solely for its sound qualities. I had an 8801 and sold it soon after i purchased it as I liked my Onkyo using XT32 better. Just my preference in sound.

But the 8802 seemed to be a different animal entirely and I quickly changed my system over to accommodate it. Then I decided to change everything to Auro3D, specifically a 10.1 setup.

I use the system primarily for music, computer streaming, mostly Roon, 3 turntables, tube gear, etc. Everything goes through Audessey XT32 and pretty much everything is listened to through the Auro3D setup. I find the music is simply delightful and everything sounds great. Maybe it is not accurate to the source, but it sure sounds great.

Note that for bass management, I run the LF output to a Behringer DCX2496 with sends the mono signal to 4 subs. The subs have to be individually corrected for delay so that they are in phase, but in the current iteration of the system, the 5 parametric filters used are global. I have a consultant who is a speaker designer with multiple patents, recording and mastering engineer and a acoustician, who has the skill and ears to make it work. We use the Pro kit for Audessey.

So, how many of you out there are using Auro3D?

Peter Truce
I don't currently have an Auro3D setup at home, but I have had many great Auro listening sessions. Have you picked up any of the native Auro3D recordings? Many of them are simply stunning.
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post #14066 of 15369 Old 08-27-2017, 11:24 AM
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I searched "Native Auro3D recordings" and the search results didn't produce much. Where does one find a list of currently available Auro3D content? Isn't the lack of content one of the big issues with the technology?
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post #14067 of 15369 Old 08-27-2017, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ptruce View Post
So, how many of you out there are using Auro3D?

Peter Truce
You'll find the Auro 3D users posting in the dedicated Auro 3D thread created 3 years ago ...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...r-version.html
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post #14068 of 15369 Old 08-27-2017, 01:22 PM
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Auro 3D?

I only have found one audio disc and one movie disc. The movie disc is Red Tails and when I ordered it from Amazon, the disc they sent did not have the Auro3D soundtrack.

I contacted Auro3D in Europe and asked where I could buy the disc. Their reply was great: they sent one overnight FedEx free!

The disc is in German but has an english soundtrack. Great sound effects, but I suspect Dolby Atmos would be better.

My interest in posting here rather than the Auro3D forum is making how many of you have an Auro3D setup? I suspect not many as the setup is not compatible with Dolby Atmos. But as I mentioned, it is great for listening to music in its format.

I hope that Marantz keeps the option with their next gen processor, but i suspect that if Audessey Pro support is dropped, the 8802 will be my last one from them. Would have to start saving nickels and dimes for a Storm or a Trinov. A LOT of nickels and dimes.

Peter

ptruce

Calibrated room - 3 turntables/many phono stages, Oppo 203, Intel NUC i7, Synology 216play, 5 Event speakers, 5 Aperion speakers, 4 sealed subs & Marantz 8802A - Auro 3D in 10.1 setup.
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post #14069 of 15369 Old 08-27-2017, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I searched "Native Auro3D recordings" and the search results didn't produce much. Where does one find a list of currently available Auro3D content? Isn't the lack of content one of the big issues with the technology?
The Auro website has a fairly comprehensive list of available content:

Link

It's definitely true that there is a lack of *movie* content, but there is a gratifying amount of music out there. Really standout recordings that I have heard are the Ozark Henry album, Lichtmond 3 - Days of Eternity (reminiscent of Pink Floyd and really stunning in Auro-3D) and the Trondheim Solistene "Magnificat," which is just a heartbreakingly beautiful piece of music. It was recorded in a cathedral, and the Auro recording captures the space in a way that no other format could.

Last edited by dschulz; 08-27-2017 at 01:31 PM.
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post #14070 of 15369 Old 08-27-2017, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptruce View Post
I only have found one audio disc and one movie disc. The movie disc is Red Tails and when I ordered it from Amazon, the disc they sent did not have the Auro3D soundtrack.

I contacted Auro3D in Europe and asked where I could buy the disc. Their reply was great: they sent one overnight FedEx free!

The disc is in German but has an english soundtrack. Great sound effects, but I suspect Dolby Atmos would be better.

My interest in posting here rather than the Auro3D forum is making how many of you have an Auro3D setup? I suspect not many as the setup is not compatible with Dolby Atmos. But as I mentioned, it is great for listening to music in its format.

I hope that Marantz keeps the option with their next gen processor, but i suspect that if Audessey Pro support is dropped, the 8802 will be my last one from them. Would have to start saving nickels and dimes for a Storm or a Trinov. A LOT of nickels and dimes.

Peter
Auro 3D is included for FREE on board the AV7704 and SR7012 and SR8012 models, so should also be included for FREE on the new AV8802A successor as well.

Last edited by jdsmoothie; 08-28-2017 at 03:58 AM.
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